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In Reply to: Assembling a Good Audio System – black art or not? posted by John C. - Aussie on March 1, 2006 at 19:08:28:
That which is easy to measure often is not what really matters, and vice versa. The way the human hearing mechanism reacts to distortion is often very different from what our intuition would lead us to believe.It's not that measurements are in and of themselves unreliable; it's that what really matters is in some cases still being discovered, and much of what has already been discovered in this area has not gained widespread acceptance because it's much more complicated to communicate than a simple THD measurement or frequency response specification. And let's not forget that often it's not in the best interest from a marketing standpoint to communicate clearly.
An understanding of what to measure (and how to analyze it) based not on how our measuring devices work, but on how our ear/brain system perceives, is what we are looking for. If we know how the ears perceive, we can better work towards recreating a convincing perception. To quote the researcher whose work you linked to:
"If there is a signal that I want to reproduce, regardless of the source or type, then the ideal is to exactly reproduce the waveform of that signal at the ears of the listener or failing that TO REPRODUCE THE SAME PERCEPTION OF THAT SIGNAL AS WOULD HAVE OCCURRED AT THE ORIGINAL EVENT. If this is done, then the goal of reproduction has been fulfilled..." - Earl Geddes, emphasis Duke's.
Follow Ups:
I agree with you entirely about needing to understand what we should measure and how we relate measurements of one component to another.I start to have problems with your quote from Earl Geddes. Reproducing the wave form at the ear and reproducing the perception are quite different concepts and I'm not certain that either is what will satisfy us.
To deal with reproducing the wave form first. I think we're all familiar with how mood affects our response to a recording. On a bad day our favourite recording can seem dull and uninvolving and on a good day quite the opposite yet we're listening to the same recording on the same gear in the same room while sitting in the same chair in both cases and the waveform reaching our ears is as identical as we can hope for in both cases, yet our experience is wildly different. Our experience at a live concert only depends in part on what falls on our ears—the emotional aspects of being present and the sense of interaction with a live artist in real time all influence our experience as well. Just reproducing the waveform won't reproduce the experience and may leave us very unsatisfied—after all we can enjoy a live concert quite a lot even when the sound quality has noticeable problems, but the same sound quality without the 'extras' of actual presence may be quite a deal less enjoyable or even unenjoyable.
Don't get me wrong. I think it would be a great advance to be able to reproduce the waveform perfectly and I think it would help a lot, but I don't think that on its own is enough to guarantee satisfaction.
Reproducing the perception is even more problematic. Are we talking about the raw sensory data perception before it is mediated by other psychological factors such as those present at a live performance, or are we talking about perception after those other factors have their influence? The second choice there amounts to reproduction of our experience rather simply of our sensory perception yet I think that is the meaning that most of us would prefer, and we have no real way of measuring or quantifying that experience. That means that we have to rely on our own judgement of when accurate reproduction has occurred and I don't think that sits well with Earl's strongly avowed rejection of subjective judgement as a reliable tool.
Still, any talk about reproducing the perception/experience seems to assume that listening to live music vs a recording provides a similar experience and I don't think it does. We never have the opportunity to listen to the same live performance twice. At best we can only listen to different performances of the same music by the same artist and there will be innumerable small differences because no-one ever performs anything exactly the same way as they did in a previous performance but that is precisely what recordings allow us to do. We do listen to exactly the same performance over and over again, and we listen slighlty differently each time and notice different things each time, and our perceptions of the music and the performance change over time and repeated listening. We even look forward to the ability to do that with new recordings that impress us. When we listen to a recording a second or third or whatever time, we very often aren't hoping to have the same experience again, but rather to deepen and extend our experience. Reproduction of an earlier experience isn't going to satisfy.
Finally, imperfect as they are, many systems do satisfy their owners. Why is that the case if the goal is either reproduction of the waveform or reproduction of the perception/experience? I think the answer is that we are satisfied because none of those things are our real goal. After all, they aren't our goal for movie playback. We don't want to reproduce what happened on the set and lose the illusion of reality, and we don't want to experience what is being portrayed, especially if it includes pain and suffering. We know the movie presents an illusion, and we know that a recording also presents an illusion, as does a novel or short story. I think we want to suspend disbelief and enter into the illusion, and to take something from the illusion. I don't think we want to replicate the original reality as an absolute, though replication of some aspects of that reality does help.
And I think there are going to be individual differences to what kind of illusion we want to create and what we want to take from it. That's why I think there is a level of 'art' in assembling a satisfying system. We need to pay attention and learn what aspects of reproduced sound are important to us, whether those aspects are realistic or not, and assemble a system with it's strengths in those areas. The enjoyment and satisfaction we experience when we are moved by listening to a recording are subjective, and it is a matter of satisfying our tastes and preferences. Plus accuracy is a variable—what row seat provides 'accurate' sound in your favourite concert hall, and is it even the same seat if one concert is a small trio playing quiet music and the next is a symphony orchestra and chorus performing a blockbuster?
I do think getting a more accurate reproduction of the waveform reaching the ear is a desirable goal but I think the real goal is satisfying whatever is required to float our personal preferred illusion while recognising that listening to records is a different experience to listening to a live performance, and it's those differences that really do count when it comes to achieving satisfaction. I'm not certain that we're ever going to be able to come up with a recipe that satisfies everyone, just as I don't think accurate reproduction of the waveform will suffice. I think we're stuck with a level of art in the process and I also think that's just great considering this is a hobby with personal enjoyment as the end goal.
And the continued presence of that level of art in the equation just happens to guarantee me a lot more happy times listening to systems other than mine, systems that do things differently to mine and produce different experiences of the music and insights into it. I really think it would be boring if we could satisfy Earl's goal because if we all had systems that did that, no-one's system would produce a different experience and that would result in a loss of enjoyment to me.
Hi David,Thanks for putting together such a thoughtful and in-depth reply. I always enjoy your posts, the disagree as well as the agree parts.
To quote Led Zep, "...sometimes words have two meanings", so perhaps "emotional perception" should have been differentiated from "auditory perception" in my post. A stereo image is an example of an auditory perception, while goosebumps are an emotional perception. I'm focusing on auditory perception as the first step; the goosebumps may or may not happen depending to a significant extent on the individual listener's state of mind.
I will concede that individual preference varies quite a bit, and even speculate that individual tolerance for imperfections may vary more than individual delight with things done right. For instance, vinyl surface noise bugs the heck out of some people, but others listen right past it as if it wasn't there.
Conceding that perfect waveform replication isn't presently possible, why would recreation (as closely as possible) of the auditory perception that the performers and/or engineers intended be an unworthy goal? It's actually a fascinating goal to pursue, because it requires delving into not only acoustics but also psychoacoustics. For exmple, one would go to great lengths to minimize distortions that matter, and not worry so much about those that matter little or not at all. Establishing which is which is the subject of much of the research documented in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society.
I can't argue against your appreciation of the differing presentations offered by different sound systems, because I must confess to the same fascination! But even if we were in danger of the entire audio world adopting Earl Geddes' paradigm and all systems converging towards accurately recreating the acoustic perception the artists intended, there's enough variation from one recording to another that it would probably take a while before we all turned away in boredom. And I know the Earl quote I used referred to "the original event" instead of to "the perception that the artist intended", but in many cases "the original event" never happened the way it was intended to be perceived - just like the shooting of a movie.
I don't think Earl is at all averse to blind subjective evaluations, as I've seen some of his research techniques up close. In fact he let me take one of his distortion perception tests via headphones, but since I knew what the test was testing he discarded my results even though I had no idea what types or levels of distortion were being presented. On the other hand, Earl does not trust non-blind listening tests, not even on himself.
How about I finish off with another Earl quote:
"When I paint, I am an artist. When I listen to music on a sound system, I am a passive listener, one who is not involved in the production of the art. Therefore, I want to hear what the "artists" intended for me to hear - good or bad. I am free to judge this art, but to reinterpret it is not my role."
Duke
Duke,We may well not be as far apart as you think.
> "Conceding that perfect waveform replication isn't presently possible, why would recreation (as closely as possible) of the auditory perception that the performers and/or engineers intended be an unworthy goal? " <
I don't think it's an unworthy goal and I think getting as close as possible is important. I just don't think it's enough to satisfy me as a listener (I might find I'm wrong about that if we ever get perfect reproduction in my life time but I won't hold my breath waiting or I really would guarantee that I won't hear it in my lifetime) but if I was an equipment designer I think it would be enough of a goal, even more than enough of a goal, for me as a designer. Some people are both listener and designer and I don't see any problem with them having separate goals for each role. In the absence of the perfect component, I think there's room for both goals to co-exist quite happily if we pay attention to what we hear.
> "When I paint, I am an artist. When I listen to music on a sound system, I am a passive listener, one who is not involved in the production of the art. Therefore, I want to hear what the "artists" intended for me to hear - good or bad. I am free to judge this art, but to reinterpret it is not my role." <
I have vague memories of a poster many years ago which said something like:
"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said but I am not sure you realise that what you heard was not what I meant." I'm perverse enough to think there's a lot of truth in that.
I actually agree with your quote to a big degree, but we normally don't have the artists tell us what they intended us to hear and I think one of the wonderful things about great art is that not only can it tell each of us many things, but it tells different people different things as well. I think artists are often surprised by what people find in their work, and I think great art often says more to people than the artist consciously had in mind. People can and do create things that surprise them, and often do better than they thought they could. I thinkthe really great artists do it much more often than they know. I'm not sure that the artist is always capable of telling us everything that they achieved in a performance, and what they intended need not be all of what they actually achieved. Sometimes, their intentions are sadly a fair bit more than what they achieved. Ultimately the performance, or the recording, stands on it's own and each of us in the audience finds what we find in it.
I think the prescription against reinterpretation is good but the artist's intent is tricky, especially when they achieve something special which exceeds their intention in some way. Sometimes the artist's intentions would sell the performance short.
What I would like to do is to hear things as accurately as possible because I think that is essential, but not every aspect of what we hear is equally essential to each of us and some aspects are more important to us than others. We can't help editorialising, choosing our systems in ways that favour what is most important to us, but I think we should avoid things that do amount to reinterpretation, which often seem to amount to making things prettier than they actually are/were. There is a fine line there and we don't always get it right, but we can continue listening and trying to get it better.
I enjoy our exchanges on this sort of thing too. I think you're very open minded and clear about what your preferences are and what you think is essential, and that makes our discussions very enjoyable for me. Perhaps that's why some of my responses to your posts are too long :-)
"but we normally don't have the artists tell us what they intended us to hear"But we do have the artists art in the form that they agreed was what they wanted to express to us (CD's, DVD's). Do we not owe it to the artist NOT to reinterprete their art by manipulating it simply because we find it personally more satisfying. That's like recoloring Picasso's Blue Period, because we don't like blue.
To me this whole discussion gets lost the moment one implies "preference" or the like. Thats because there is no and can never be an answer to "preference" in "reproduction". There can only be "preference" when responding to the art, and reproduction is not the art. It may be an art in achiveing it, but it, in and of itself, is not the art or even part of it.
I am very careful in all my work NOT to imply "preference" in our testing, only "perception". We can perceive reproduction differences without ever implying or judging a preference. When there is no "perceptable" difference between the reproduction and the art, then, as an audio designer, my job is done, and the "preference" judgement can be made solely where it belongs - of the art and not the playback system.
If this is "boring" to you, then you and I are seeking different things.
I know that many will take strong exception to this point of view, but believe me, it was not arrived at lightely. I am a passionate listener who over the 45+ years of listening and designing has come to recognize what the importance aspects are. I attempt to describe them here and through my work.
Well, I never said that it was right to reinterpret. I actually said it was wrong to do so. Go back and read that point, and please refrain from trying to accuse me of saying things I most definitely did not.I did raise issues with knowing the artist's intentions and there are issues. Performances don't always work out as intended, surprises happen, and sometimes the surprises are what makes the performance. Should you reproduce such surprises accurately when the artist tells you they were unintended? Should you try to deliver what the artist intended or what they achieved? I do side with reproducing what was achieved.
And it is worth noting that not all recordings do meet with the artist's approval. Discs have been released that the artists objected most strongly to. You simply can't assume that the recording documents the artist's intentions.
I spoke strongly in favour of accuracy as an equipment design goal and I meant that. I also have yet to find any component that does that. I said I was uncertain that delivering such a goal would satisfy the listener, though I also said I was prepared to find that I was wrong on that point if we ever really reproduced the wave form. It's impossible to say how I would react to hearing something no one has ever heard, but as I said, I think listening to recordings is a different experience to listening to a live performance. We can and do attend in different ways, so why shouldn't we find that what would genuinely satisfy us when listening to recordings is something different to what satisfies us when we listen to live music. And as I said, I've listened to both live and recorded and I've played publicly as an amateur artist. I do have a bit of experience as a performer as well as a listener.
As far as accurately reproducing the waveform goes, which waveform do you want to reproduce for a live recording? The 5th row or the 10th row? Is it re-interpretation to arrange your reproduction so that what you hear is very close to what you heard at the actual concert, even though the mics were located elsewhere?
What I am certain of is that I do think that there are issues about accuracy and faithfulness to intentions which aren't necessarily as clear cut as you try to make them seem; and also that trying to achieve a goal that our equipment currently does not support and always falling short does not seem like a recipe for contented listening to me.
David"Well, I never said that it was right to reinterpret. I actually said it was wrong to do so. Go back and read that point, and please refrain from trying to accuse me of saying things I most definitely did not."
Don't be so touchy, I was not accusing you of anything - simply asking the question. I was responding as much to the general list of comments as to yours specifically. You have to choose one to respond to and yours was the most sensible. So don't take offense.
"As far as accurately reproducing the waveform goes, which waveform do you want to reproduce for a live recording? The 5th row or the 10th row? Is it re-interpretation to arrange your reproduction so that what you hear is very close to what you heard at the actual concert, even though the mics were located elsewhere?"
I am not a waveform accurate advocate because its not perceptually important. I advocate playback accuracy of the recording as mixed by the engineers, which is two channel. (And I know the argument about the monitor loudspeakers and their problems. Once all loudspeakers are accurate then this won't be a problem anymore. ) If the release does not "meet with the artist's approval" then I am sorry for the artist who will release inferior work - I can't help that. Your last question is only applicable to a rather unique circumstance - its hardly ever applicable (since classical music accounts for such a small % of sales), but its still what was mixed and approved that counts.
I will say this, I have a good friend who has released many CD's. He asks me what I think of them and I point out all the flaws. He never even heard these flaws. All he knows is the performance (which was perfect) not the recording (which was not). But he is the last word on the release. He now has me listen to everything that he releases on my system before he releases them. So no, the situation is not perfect, but modifying the playback will, at best, improve one situation and at worst screw up everything. So I don't see how we at the playback end can ever hope to correct problems at the recording end.
"What I am certain of is that I do think that there are issues about accuracy and faithfulness to intentions which aren't necessarily as clear cut as you try to make them seem; "
I think that you are oversimplifying what I am saying as I am hardly saying that the task is easy to impliment, only that the goal seems pretty clear to me. Yes one can make it cloudy with a lot of specific examples, but when one looks at the big picture I think that the direction is still pretty clear and I think that you would agree with that direction.
"and also that trying to achieve a goal that our equipment currently does not support and always falling short does not seem like a recipe for contented listening to me."
What goal does our equipment currently not support? I find that I am very contented with my listening and I find that people like Duke, who I believe shares my point of view, are also quite contented with thier listening. I'm unclear on why you think that my goal leads to discontent.
At any rate, don't take offense, I think that we are mostly on the same page with perhaps a few disagreements on what the goal is. I think that you will find that while the issues you raise make the situation less clear, that striving for accuracy in reproduction independent of preference still ends up being the best choice overall.
Earl,Comments noted.
I do think fidelity to the recording as it was mixed is a much more workable goal, but there are still issues.
Most studios work with a nearfield setup for mastering and most listeners seem to prefer far field. Both produce quite different experiences but I don't regard one as being intrinsically more right than the other. Some people are definitely more partisan than I.
And I'm quite content with my listening too, if that means something.
But I'm content with something less than total accuracy, as are you. None of us knows what total accuracy sounds like because it's currently unachievable, and small differences in reproductive quality can cause significant changes in our perceptions. I suspect that we all try to achieve accuracy by ensuring that our system's strengths lie in the areas that are most important to us while minimising weaknesses and ensuring that none of them are significant enough to cause us problems. Different people do like different presentations—I have a set of low sensitivity mini-monitors in a near field setup and one of my friends has high sensitivity vintage Altec Lansings in a far field setup. We both listen to live as well as recorded music and both find our respective systems accurate. My feeling is that we each get off on different characteristics of musical sound and we optimise playback for our respective preferences. In other words, we're selective about what we're accurate to.
I see no reason for believing that achieving total accuracy is going to change that. Total accuracy can be determined by measurement, but it may not reflect the 'mix' I hear when I listen to either live or recorded music.
And yes, I may be "making things cloudy" in your view but I do feel a need to withold judgement on how satisfying such a result would be. I totally agree that equipment should be accurate but people do derive pleasure from using things in differrent ways, and the goal of this hobby is pleasure. I'm prepared to bet that delivering totally accurate equipment would not result in all that much of a reduction in the range of equipment manufactured and sold, and some of today's gear is more accurate than others and there are people who buy at both ends of that range. I can't see that changing and I'm not sure that I would necessarily approve if everybody settled on the same thing, no matter how accurate it was. Contrast can be instructive and enjoyable also.
DavidI can hardly disagree with you, but I also have some further points.
"Most studios work with a nearfield setup for mastering and most listeners seem to prefer far field. Both produce quite different experiences but I don't regard one as being intrinsically more right than the other. "
I posted this same topic as a question here some months ago but did not get much response. This is a critical point, one that I have not wholly resolved in my own mind and one that does have a strong effect on what we perceive.
Which leads me into the area that you are uncomfortable with and the one that I am most comfortable with. You seem to be unsure that true accuracy will achieve what you are seeking - fair enough, perhaps you haven't experienced it, perhaps it can never really be achieved, whatever. But what I have found (personal subjective opinion here) is that I am more satisfied with the sound the more accurate it is when judged by an absolutely objective criteria. This could be coincidence, or wishful thinking, but I ask you, does that seem likely. Doesn't it just seem intuitively like it should happen this way. What else in our universe works in any other way? How could it be that the key to good sound is locked away from us never to reveal itself through science? Maybe its the scientist in me, but this just doesn't seem logical. Most professional believe that measurements are absolutely reliable predictors of mean opinions of quality.
Now I am not saying that objective measurements tell all - hardly. Many objective measurements that I see done are pointless to useless, and they definately don't tell the whole story. To measure axial frequency response, for example, is, to me, a wholly unsatisfactory measurement. Its one measurement in a field of many and not even the most important one. And yet so many think that this is accuracy - hardly.
"I see no reason for believing that achieving total accuracy is going to change that. Total accuracy can be determined by measurement, but it may not reflect the 'mix' I hear when I listen to either live or recorded music."
And this, of course, is where we disagree, because in my experince the better something measures - when done right - the better it sounds. Your experience may be different, but I feel bad for you if it does. Because I have a clear path to follow and metrics by which to measure my progress which are both meaningfull and accurate. This allows me to move forward unambiguously without the trial and error so often associated with audio progress. I have designed an untold number of audio systems and if it weren't for the ability to accurately quantify their performance I would not be able to move forward with any speed or certainty.
The "trial and error so often associated with audio progress" that I spoke of above, is, of course, what many people are in this hobby for. I don't criticize them for that, but I do object to being criticized for seeking an objective way to proceed, since, as a professional, my livelihood depends on it. I understand, perhaps better than most, that this puts me at odds with many here, but still, some seem to appreciate what I can offer in the way of an objective point of view, so I am willing to offer them my expertise.
Nice talking with you.
Earl,"Which leads me into the area that you are uncomfortable with and the one that I am most comfortable with. You seem to be unsure that true accuracy will achieve what you are seeking - fair enough, perhaps you haven't experienced it, perhaps it can never really be achieved, whatever. But what I have found (personal subjective opinion here) is that I am more satisfied with the sound the more accurate it is when judged by an absolutely objective criteria. This could be coincidence, or wishful thinking, but I ask you, does that seem likely. Doesn't it just seem intuitively like it should happen this way. What else in our universe works in any other way? How could it be that the key to good sound is locked away from us never to reveal itself through science? Maybe its the scientist in me, but this just doesn't seem logical. Most professional believe that measurements are absolutely reliable predictors of mean opinions of quality."
So far improved accuracy has seemed to work for me too, however I remain hesitant about total accuracy.
Part of my reason for that is that I think there's a question about accuracy to what. I know people with wildly different systems and they all claim to be seeking accuracy, but different aspects of the "sound of music" appeal to them and their systems do sound different and individual. Do I assume many of us are fooling ourselves about what is accurate, including people who do listen to a reasonable amount of live music? More importantly, are they choosing the sound they get because of personal preference or because aspects of that sound strike them as more accurate in relation to what they focus on when they listen to live music? That's not a trivial question and I'm unaware of any research to try and answer that question.
The 2 of us can drive separately from A to B in identical cars along the same route. Weather conditions and time of day are the same. Do we perceive the same scenery and do we have the same driving experience? We'll probably attend to some different aspects of the scenery and give a different description of some aspects of the route so I think it's fair to say that our perceptions are different. Our driving styles will definitely mediate our driving experience. Whose report of the trip is going to be more accurate, assuming both of us report honestly? It's a meaningless question. We've both answered accurately but the trip was different in some ways for each of us.
Our perceptions are complex and they do differ from person to person. What we perceive when we listen to music isn't simply the product of the acoustic waveform in the room. There are other contributors to our perception and they are personal. Does everyone's perception correlate to the same degree with their raw sensation? I doubt it, but I also don't know how we could go about establishing it.
And, if one person's "accuracy" now is another's "re-interpretation", why should that change when we have the ability to reproduce things with 100% accuracy to the source when we don't all perceive the source in the same way?
It's possible that having total accuracy would satisfy many of us, and it may make it easier for many of us to focus on those aspects of the music that most interest us, even though there is some variation from person to person there, but I'm uncertain that it will satisfy all of us. It probably would satisfy those of us who fall within 1 standard deviation of the mean for what we respond to, however that is measured, but I wonder whether it's less likely to satisfy those at the extreme ends of the bell curve for this. There's a wide range of variation in musical tastes (classical vs pop vs jazz vs…) and many of those forms have very different sonic traits. I would expect there to be similar variations in what we all perceive as accurate, irrespective of measurements.
I always remain cautious about views that leave no room for individual differences. They tend not to work for everyone though some views do seem to work for more people than do others. There is less variation among us on some things than on others. Until we can achieve total accuracy and see how a wide range of people respond, I will choose to remain cautious.
DavidNo system will ever please everyone - lets face it. And your argument assumes that someone can define "accuracy" in a subjective manner, which I disagree with.
"I know people with wildly different systems and they all claim to be seeking accuracy"
Yes, of course, but lets face it, most people do view "accuracy" as "preference". I find that people say they want accuracy, but thats not what they buy nor what they prefer. No, to me accuracy can only be measured through objective means and then this leaves little doubt as to the reality of the situation.
"And, if one person's "accuracy" now is another's "re-interpretation", why should that change when we have the ability to reproduce things with 100% accuracy to the source when we don't all perceive the source in the same way?"
Because this question can only be meaningful if "accuracy" is ambiguous, which it is if it is defined subjectively. But when defined objectively then the above example is not possible. It either is accurate or its not, no ambiguity.
"It's possible that having total accuracy would satisfy many of us, and it may make it easier for many of us to focus on those aspects of the music that most interest us, even though there is some variation from person to person there, but I'm uncertain that it will satisfy all of us."
Of course it won't because you are talking about "preference" not "accuracy". Its very possible, and has in fact happened to me, that an accurate sound system makes a recording sound worse. That truely has to be possible right? So why should we believe that accuracy would always lead to preference? I don't believe that, not for a moment.
But lets just be clear on our terminology. If one is seeking preference then they cannot claim that it is necessarily high fidelity or accuracy. They are not and never can be the same thing. If someone wants to seek preference then go for it, but lets just be clear that what they seek is a personal thing not to be confused with high fidelity. Thats the root of most of my arguments; that people want to define accuracy as preference and this simply is not the case.
I can say unambiguously that I seek "accuracy", that this is also my personal "preference" is a seperate issue. And I am completely comfortable with someone saying that "accuracy" is not what they "prefer". But I am uncomfortable with someone saying that they prefer accuracy while the objective measurements clearly show otherwise. This is a misuse of the term.
Earl,I think our problem is that you're defining accuracy in terms of the sound produced, which is great when it comes to assessing components.
People judge accuracy on the basis of their sensations which is a different thing.
I'm unwilling to jump to the conclusion that "most people do view "accuracy" as "preference"" and I'd be very interested if you know of any studies to support that. I tend to believe most people are honest and if they say that something sounds life-like or accurate to them, that's what they mean. They're not confusing what they like with what they think is accurate. I know people who, if asked, can tell you where they think their system departs from accuracy and where they erred in favour of a preference for something rather than a different deviation. They are aware of the difference between accuracy and preference but, if they can't get accuracy they do rely on preference when choosing their unavoidable inaccuracy. I could be wrong but these are intelligent people who are honest in other areas so I'm reluctant to distrust them over this.
In fact, I can quickly think of a simple reason for someone's perceptions disagreeing with objective measurement of the sound. Let's say we have a music lover—someone whose assessments of accuracy you previously have been happy with—who has recently started to develop noise related hearing loss and neither of you are aware of this. As you are no doubt aware, this loss starts as a loss of sensitivity in the mid-range. They haven't yet developed it badly enough to bother them sufficiently to get their hearing tested, but their hearing sensitivity is measurably down in that region. They report that a system with a slight boost in that area is accurate whereas you, without the damage, hear the boost and claim it isn't. Both of you happen to be right in this case.
This isn't a "one size fits all" world, and anyone who deviates from what you regard as the right assessment of accuracy is not necessarily wrong or falsely reporting a preference.
DavidTo me accuracy cannot be a subjective judgement - we disagree here, Ok.
Your example is false for two reasons. By far the most common hearing loss is in the high frequency, not the mid frequency, but never mind that. This person still has a hearing loss when they go to a concert and so they will still find the acurate system accurate on comparison. What your saying is that they may want the sound system to correct their hearing loss. Then its no longer accurate, and they should buy a hearing aid instead, so they don't screw up the sound for everybody else.
I'm off to Brazil for a week so I won't be able to keep up this conversation, but thats Ok since it seems to be dwindling down to some very specific exceptions to the rules.
Earl Geddes
Earl,I specified noise induced hearing loss. It tends to show up first in the vocal range frequencies, not the higher frequencies. I used to work in occupational health and safety and was required to study noise problems. I suggest you read up a little on it yourself.
It's a rude shift on your part to ignore the condition I referred to and try and imply that my example was wrong because other conditions don't manifest in the same way.
Yes, a person with a hearing loss can compare things to a live performance but, as you are well aware, live performances can sound noticeably different depending on where you sit. We build an "image" of what sounds accurate over time and, if our hearing deteriorates, that image will change also but it will change sometime later than the hearing deterioration. It will not occur along with it. That's why people get their hearing tested because "things don't sound right". If there has been a loss, their standard for what sounds right hasn't yet changed or they wouldn't think things didn't sound right. We adjust over time, and adjustment occurs only after an interval. There are periods where the adjustment has not started to be made, or is incomplete, but during which the deterioration does affect a person's hearing and their judgements about their perceptions are influenced by their former hearing experience rather than their current experience.
You say " it seems to be dwindling down to some very specific exceptions to the rules" and attempt to dismiss my points but you were the one to state "the rules" in such a categorical way as to imply there were no exceptions, and to keep arguing against any suggestion that there were. In this particular case there happen to be exceptions and your categorical statement simply isn't true for everyone as I pointed out.
You could at least have the courtesy to admit, when making some of your frequent categorical statements, that there are exceptions to them from time to time.
Enjoy your trip to Brazil.
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