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When did suggesting people try things for themselves and decide for themselves which sounds best to them become a banable offense on Audio Asylum?In a thread over on Tweaker's Asylum someone posted with the topic "Black Gates better than auricaps?!?!" and asked the following:
I did a search and did'nt find all that much. The application is output caps for a DAC. Obviously cost is not a concern, but what sounds better!
I replied, asking which sounds better to whom, pointing out that there are those for whom the Black Gates sound better and those for whom the auricaps sound better and that if he were interested in which sounds better to him, in his own system with his own ears, that he would be the best judge of that and seeing as he said cost wasn't a concern, suggested he try them both and decide for himself which sounds better.
I hadn't posted in that thread for a week yet out of the blue my original reply is shut down with a "COOL IT!" notice from the "Moderation Group" and a reply to one of my subsequent posts from Jon Risch, saying that such advice is anarchy, considered "badgering" and with the warning "IF YOU DO THIS AGAIN, YOU WILL NOT BE WELCOME HERE ANY MORE."
I utterly fail to see how encouraging such independence possibly warrants shuttting down threads and threats of bans except as a means of trying to maintain a dependent class of audiophiles to feed the egos of self-annointed gurus.
Anarchy is only a dirty word to those for whom independence, individuality and diversity are threats to their desire to control and manipulate others.
se
Follow Ups:
we all have our own preferences when it comes to wine, women, and song, and any thing else subjective. John Risch is not content to offer his own opinion, he has an overwhelming need to dictate to others what they ought to prefer, and is incapable of grasping the simple fact that what he thinks is best is not what everyone thinks is best. He constantly mischaracterizes your's and others advice to try different options as claiming that people can't share experiences. You ARE clearly sharing your experience-that being, what someone recommended as their fav might not have been yours. People share experiences all the time, and I don't think anyone is saying they can't. What John Risch seems to have a major malfunction about is the simple fact that people can not share preferences in the sense that there is no absolute "best" when talking about subjective matters.Bottom line here is John Risch doesn't like anyone contradicting him. By suggesting to people, for example, that maybe they should try silver coated copper wires for themselves, because many people like them, you are challenging the church. Cables is a great place as long as you don't question, challenge, suggest, or say anything that contradicts the dictator, er, moderator....Welcome to North Korea....
Steve and few die hard followers are the only ones who have convinced themselves of this BS. Most folks have seen SE in action with regards to me and others, and the knee-jerk support, and dismissed it for what it is.Say it often enough, and loud enough, and it becomes some sort of twisted sick 'truth' in people's minds.
There is even one idiot who is convinced that I am some sort of mega-shill for the cable industry, that AA gets kick-backs from the cable mouguls, and I am a Nazi. I will say that at least SE has not bought into this, but his bashing and constant contention has generated this kind of foolishness. As do posts like yours.
NT
Some things just don't seem to change. If there's one place where your views are for sure needed...it's in the CableAsylum! I feel it's unfortunate that you,and others, have to walk such a fine line when posting there.But it seems you have to walk a similar fine line when you post elsewhere too (like the tweakersasylum). Not because of what you write...or what you say. But because of who you are. That's unfortunate.
cheers all :D
dan
In Jon's own words:Hence the warning (which he really doesn't deserve, but I gave one anyway).
I didn't really deserve the warning but I was given one anyway? Rather like I didn't really deserve to be banned on Cable Asylum but was banned anyway, eh?
Christ, Rod, how much longer are you going to let this thug abuse his power here?
se
...maybe you're just an asshole and you've pushed the majority to the point where they're just sick and tired of you're shit...Hey, I'm just trying to help you search for an answer.
Jon Risch
You've got to be kidding me.
First, in your explanation on why you deleted SE's post in the tweakers forum was because...a person advising someone to "try both" is of no help...(who are you to decide what is useful advise and what is not??)Then you seem to imply (with your "bingo" comment) that the above poster is correct in saying it's neither...that the reason Steve's post was deleted was because...
"...maybe you're just an asshole and you've pushed the majority to the point where they're just sick and tired of you're shit...Hey, I'm just trying to help you search for an answer."Jon...I think several people should be able to post their views in all forums. I am also in favor of moderating to keep things from getting out of hand...and on topic. From what I see is that you do a disservice to AA as a moderator. Jon...perhaps (notice the word...perhaps) people are getting tired of your BS style of moderating. I know I for one dread the day that your "style" of moderating infects the other forums.
It seems it's already spreading...how sad.
hope things don't spread to my favorite forums!
enjoy the music,
dan
As already noted, no posts were deleted from Tweaks.
Someone else may have had a post deleted from General, that is possible, and since I do not moderate General, and do not attempt to read every post in General, there certainly could have been a deletion, for the usual reasons.I seem to imply.
Steve has seemed to imply many things over the years.
Other times, he just comes out and says "f" you. Several of those direct kinds of posts were deleted in the past.The reasons for his post/s being Cooled in Tweaks have been supplied, in some detail, in more than one posted response.
It is not just about a single post. It is about a pattern of posting over a long period of time. Taken out of context, outside the realm of a long term pattern, his posts 'seem' to be less confrontational.
Quite simply, if someone else had done the same thing, but it was only the first time, and they did not do it again, there probably would have been no warning, no Cool It, because it would not have been necessary.
Time has shown that SE likes to push the limits of what is civilized, and will continue to get more and more overbearing and agressive if he is not informed of being near or over the limit. I made the mistake of being far too lenient and forgiving in the past, and am not going to make that same mistake twice. Erring on the side of too much is naturally not a desirable thing to do. However, by his past and present behavior, attitude, and actions, SE has earned the attention and consideration of where he is heading with his latest posts.
Jon allows the view of many others all the time..The criteria for that allowance appears to be based on correlation with his own views.cables and tweaks...post there that you like PVC over teflon, or silver plated copper..or, god forbid...that you do not hear a difference between zip cord, line cord, and his cross connected design..and see what you receive for your efforts.
In recent history, all who do so have been warned by Jon..and it is getting worse.
In this case, moderation has indeed been overridden by the desire to dictate to others one's own opinions..the ship is rocking, and the cannon is not tied down..
Is the controversy being used to foster more site activity? One wonders..
Cheers, John
First, in your explanation on why you deleted SE's post in the tweakers forum was because...a person advising someone to "try both" is of no help...(who are you to decide what is useful advise and what is not??)No post was deleted.
My first reply was given a "COOL IT!" which shuts down that post and prevents any replies to it:
While all are welcome at the Asylum, abuse of the rules will not be tolerated. Consistent abusers will be banned from the site. Please accept this as an official warning.
This means that all comments on the thread are to stop. You are to cool off or an automatic 7 day ban will be put in place to force you to do so. If this "COOL IT" post is persistently ignored on three different occasions, then you will be permanently banned.
No further follow-ups will be considered.
Thank you for your support of the Asylum.
Though I'm at a complete loss as to what rules were being abused.
se
...I did mean to put "cool it warning" in my post...not deletion.
Thanks for the correction.
"No post was deleted."Just the one I posted here in response to my feelings of the lame cool it directed at you.
I swear I didn't even swear.
Magnetar
"No post was deleted."Just the one I posted here in response to my feelings of the lame cool it directed at you.
I swear I didn't even swear.
Hmmm. You sure it was deleted and you didn't just oops? Sometimes I'll have sworn I hit Submit Follow Up but I'd only done a Preview Message. Or somstimes I've hit the Back button a bit too fast after I had hit Submit Follow Up and the message doesn't get posted.
se
His post was deleted, as I remember it being up on this asylum.
The Ever Evil Doctor Steel
...maybe you're just an asshole and you've pushed the majority to the point where they're just sick and tired of you're shit...That's possible.
Hey, I'm just trying to help you search for an answer.
Thanks. I owe ya one. :)
se
Thanks. I owe ya one.Uh-oh. If you're on a roll, this could attract a crowd. I wouldn't want to be 'tkheem'.
Uh-oh. If you're on a roll, this could attract a crowd. I wouldn't want to be 'tkheem'.tkheem doesn't have anything to worry about. Why would he? All he said was maybe I'm just an asshole and I've pushed the majority to the point where they're sick and tired of my shit.
Perhaps the majority does think I'm an asshole and are sick and tired of my shit. I don't really know one way or the other. Neither does tkheem, but he was only just speculating, and not disingenuously claiming to speak for any majority.
I ain't got no problem with that.
se
Steve was an asshole. But then I started to see the argument complete. Despite JR's generous contributions to the cause he started losing me. I think he has good ideas, but he can't take criticism, which for a moderator is simply unacceptable. If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.And while Steve was kind enough to send me some of his spare Vampire Wire, my opinion was turning long before. I still agree with some of JR's ideas. But the man and the ideas are 2 different things.
Rob CThe world was made for people not cursed with self-awareness
And while Steve was kind enough to send me some of his spare Vampire Wire, my opinion was turning long before.NOW you tell me! Why didn't you say something sooner? Now I'm stuck having to buy off this other fellow with $150 worth of Kimber AGSS! :)
se
You've mellowed. I read it differently.
You've mellowed. I read it differently.Nope. Same ol' me. And I know his post was intended to be insulting (nice try but I just don't feel insulted by stuff like that) but while I patronized him a bit with the "Thanks. I owe ya one" there was really nothing in the post to argue. *shrug*
se
HARSH!But funny!
I bet farting also amuses you, and that belching sends you into paroxysms of laughter. Dork.
I bet farting also amuses you, and that belching sends you into paroxysms of laughter. Dork.I dunno. I think the right fart at the right time can be quite amusing.
Case in point.
My sister's going through her mid-life crisis (she just turned 40 this year). She'd recently grown tired of her boyfriend of 10 years (who is five years younger but looks 10 years older).
Some kid half her age over in Egypt typed some pretty words to her on Yahoo Chat and now she's head-over-heels in love with him and is even thinking of taking out a loan to fly to Egypt to meet him. Even though they've been typing and talking to each other for about a month, she still talks to him like he's a puppy or something.
Anyway, she was talking on the phone to him the other day out on the patio. I was walking past her to go do something or other and overheard her say (again, like he was a pupply) "Awwwwwwwwww. No one's ever said anything so sweeeeet to me before."
Those words were immediately followed by a rather loud *pppffffrrrraaaaaapppppp!*
Call me a dork, but I couldn't catch my breath for the next five minutes I was laughing so hard. :)
se
Then you will just love SE's link.http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/8725.html
Then you will just love SE's link.http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/8725.html
How's that for mature.
Um, it wasn't intended to be mature. The person I was responding to wasn't deserving of mature. So I opted for irreverent humor instead.
se
Mr. Risch, this is pure nonsense, and from someone whose cables I built and with which I am happy.
You would not have come up with all your many opinions, frequently good, about inexpensive audio doodads and mods without keeping an open mind and being willing to think for yourself and experiment. Now, however, it appears you mind is closing, and you're becoming a doctrinarian.I wish you'd resign your post from the board and become one of the guys again. Albeit on a pathetically small scale, your behavior since becoming a bored member indicates the truth of Lord Acton's famous and excellent saying: "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
We're very lucky to have contributions from intelligent industry insiders who actually know what in the world they're talking about. It seems, though, that the board is more interested in increasing the already extreme level of confused, lemmings-following-lemmings, vapor-science-driven drivel that goes on here than spreading education and good advice.
PS: You use the word anarchy wrong.
PPS: Ban me already! I frequently advise people to think and try things for themselves, and to take advice given here with caution. The Nazis would have hauled me off to the woods, fer sure!
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/102631.html
Jon Risch
Risch, you're far gone in this discussion. Your argument isn't tenanble; lacks completely in logic; and seem driven by unreason. It, in fact, looks precisely like the argument of a man who may have realized he did something he shouldn't have, but who is too insecure to admit it, and who therefore persists in his unreasonable behavior.Just drop it already, and admit you were wrong. You lost this pissing contest.
Just for the sake of clarification of your response, let's say someone asks about two different caps all they get two single, but opposite views from personal knowledge and experience. Doesn't this amount to an answer of "try both" and if it does, do you feel compelled to jump in to unbalance the scale or are you content to "ALLOW" this conflicting answers to remain alone so the original poster has to make up his/her own mind?
If different people are recommending two different caps, based on their experiences, this is quite different than what SE did.Without any apparent experience base to draw on, he recomends trying both automatically, based solely on his unique "you can't share personal experiences" POV. Rather than post his experiences about each cap, and explaining WHY he thinks one is better than the other, he simply says to do both. This provides absolutely no helpful information, the other posters all had their reasons for making the recommendation they did, the original poster can look up their systems, or ask about them, and use all of this relevant information to decide which way HE might want to go (again, with the idea that there is a limit to the time, resources and effort which can be devoted to checking out all the variations on a tweak or mod).
It is the automatic part that I object to, and the implication that no one can share their experiences, because they are all totally unique and without common ground.
See:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/206918.htmlNo matter how much he denies it, SE is trying to say that we can not share our own experiences with how things sound. His answer in the thread under discussion is to "try both". A non-answer, not what was originally asked for, and done deliberately in my opinion, as he posted twice to ram home his unique and somewhat bizzare POV.
It is not just this single thread or his two posts, he has a long history of hassling people, denigrating, and generally causing trouble.
Without the history, I am sure that it looks over the top to take him to task, but there IS a history, and he won't change his spots, and his badgering and hassling should not be allowed to continue.
Without any apparent experience base to draw on, he recomends trying both automatically, based solely on his unique "you can't share personal experiences" POV.My suggestion that he try both was based on my knowledge of the fact that many audiophiles have preferred Black Gates even over quality film caps in coupling situations such as that of the original poster. And conversely that many have preferred quality film caps over Black Gates.
The REAL audiophile world is much larger than the status quo Utopia you've tried creating on Cable Asylum and is far more diverse than your self-serving propaganda misleads people to believe.
Rather than post his experiences about each cap, and explaining WHY he thinks one is better than the other, he simply says to do both.
Because unlike you, I'm not in the business of convincing others that I can tell them what's best for them.
This provides absolutely no helpful information, the other posters all had their reasons for making the recommendation they did, the original poster can look up their systems, or ask about them, and use all of this relevant information to decide which way HE might want to go (again, with the idea that there is a limit to the time, resources and effort which can be devoted to checking out all the variations on a tweak or mod).
But in this case, there was just two choices. And the original poster stated that cost wasn't a concern.
HTML tag not allowed
It wasn't automatic and there was no implication that no one can share their experiences because they are all totally unique and without common ground.This constant and total mischaracterization of yours further indicates just how irrational you are.
No matter how much he denies it, SE is trying to say that we can not share our own experiences with how things sound.
And no matter how many times you atempt to mischaracterize what I've said, that won't change the fact that I have never said tha we cannot share our own experiences.
All that I have said is that there is a great diversity among audiophiles when it comes to individual tastes and preferences and because of this the experiences of others are of limited value to any particular individual and there's no guarantee that one person will prefer that which another perfers. That there's really no substitute for one's own experience.
You seem to be the ONLY person to come totally unhinged by this. So unhinged that you go off on maniacal tirades like the one you cite above, persistently mischaracterizing what I have said, using laughably absurd analogies (i.e. the transistor radio speaker).
And now you've finally resorted to abusing your power here moderator in an attempt to prevent anyone from ever suggesting to others that they try things for themselves when possible and decide for themselves what sounds best to them.His answer in the thread under discussion is to "try both". A non-answer, not what was originally asked for, and done deliberately in my opinion, as he posted twice to ram home his unique and somewhat bizzare POV.
I rest my case.
se
nt
I once posted on Cable Asylum that my experience shows that the components in question have well designed power supplies and thus probably not sensitive to power cable issues. Just posted my opinion - nothing controversial or offensive (see link below)That prompted their moderator Ted Smith to bully me since *he* personally didn’t agree with that opinion.
It’s not healthy for a forum moderator to self-inflate themselves to the point where they start to believe their personal views as fact.
disgusting. I guess you better keep your opinion to yourself!ja in windy and hot, Tucson, AZ
The Elaborate DAC=55/76 or 27 Balanced Preamp=Balanced Six Pacs=Newform Research 645
I did not see anything odd or abusive about it. Strange to me but this whole world is getting just a bit warped, or maybe I am just noticing more, but I think it is the former. This all will most likely get relegated to outside or banished all together. I actually liked it when there was a bit more fire in the discourse, if the discourse required it.Tea and crumpets anyone?
ja in clear, breezy and 109 degrees, Tucson, AZ
The Elaborate DAC=55/76 or 27 Balanced Preamp=Balanced Six Pacs=Newform Research 645
It just hit 110 up here in Phoenix.Maybe I should start a pool to see whose brain fries first - mine or Alan's. I better stay out of this thread - my blood will really boil if I get started and I won't stand a chance against Alan.
If you need an extra winter coat to get you through that long, frigid summer down in Tucson just give us an SOS.
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
But I guess this is good weather to listen to music, though since everything I have has tubes, it does get warm, even with the cooler going.ja in dark outside with a big smiling moon, Tucson, AZ
The Elaborate DAC=55/76 or 27 Balanced Preamp=Balanced Six Pacs=Newform Research 645
How you be? Give me a ping sometime.
I generally find your posts to be obnoxious and irritating, but in this one case I could not have answered any better than you did.Which 12AU7 sounds better, UK Mullard or Amperex Holland? Depends on the circuit, and your ears. Which caps sound better? Same answer is the only one that make any sense!
I get the feeling the various forums are suddenly being OVER MODERATED for some unknown reason. Don’t know exactly why, but perhaps the recent Stereophile dust-up and the relegating of posts relating to Stereophile to a separate forum was a clue.
Like the banning of Dr. Draz. Personally, I would have rather he had been allowed to stay so that we could continue to abuse and ridicule him. But alas, no Dr. Draz to abuse.
Perhaps this whole AA thing is getting too big and too important to tolerate any sign of anarchy. Too bad, really, as I kind of like it better when it was a little more free form.
PS: Note first sentence above, including the statement ‘in this one case’ ;-)
PS: Note first sentence above, including the statement ‘in this one case’ ;-)Don't worry. I didn't think you were suddenly gettin sweet on me. :)
se
If you think that's bad, try telling folks on Cable Asylum that there's nothing wrong or audibly bad with copper clad steel coax. Then sit back and wait for a small riot to happen.
I don't think anarchy is an accurate term here. Audio Nervosa seems a bit closer to the truth, but I will need to consult my wife the physciatric nurse for a more appropriate description.
The Ever Evil Doctor Steel
You didn't tell me that you married your shrink. Is that so she couldn't testify? :)
When we were courting I won her over by singing that old Rolling Stones song:
Dear doctor please help me I'm damaged
There's a hole where a heart used to be.....
d.b.
...and a mirror where my hair used to be...
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