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Is my speaker wire good enough?

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Jerry Parker

(A)

I am using a pair of Pispeakers 3pi theater series as my mains. My current cable is Soundking 12 guage oxygen free copper speaker wire. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&User_ID=15352488&St=7907&St2=-50683406&St3=-69118756&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=2792&DID=7
I use Dayton Banana plugs to terminate the cable http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&User_ID=15352488&St=7907&St2=-50683406&St3=-69118756&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=2462&DID=7
I have heard from others that my speaker cables are not up to snuff with my speakers and I should upgrade to something better. What do you all reccomend? I will do either DIY or buy a pair, depending on whatever will get me the best sound. I don't want to spend more than 100 dollars for the pair.
Thanks.

Follow Ups:

You have a good match - E-Stat 18:19:35 10/22/03 (0)
for your AV receiver. If / when you upgrade to much higher resolution gear, then you'll hear a difference with better wire.
rw
Re: Is my speaker wire good enough? - Mike Rubin 16:44:49 10/21/03 (0)
At your price point, if you decide to buy rather than DIY, you might want to go with AudioQuest Type 4 from AudioAdvisor. If you let AudioAdvisor do the terminations, you can get these for less than factory terminations, and I think they've been just fine in my Creek integrated-Infinity Intermezzo 2.6 system. Nothing complicated about them at all, and I haven't heard any DIY's with which to compare them, but I suspect that most people could be very happy with them.
- http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=AQT410C&product_name=Type 4 Speaker Cable - Pair (Open in New Window)
Re: After comparing cables, I think Jitter_by_Coffee is right - Jerry Parker 14:30:25 10/21/03 (1)
I went to my cousin's house and borrowed his MonsterCable Z1's. We brought them back and hooked them up to my speakers. We played the Track Bernstein's Magnificent Seven off of the Telarc Sampler. The bass sounded clearer, but the high's seemed To pierce my ears too much. The violin's had a unnatural character to them. So he made me leave the room and said he was going to do a "tweak". So I came back in and we started the music back up again. Whatever he did, made the unnatural highs go away, and it sounded smooth. The bass was as clear as ever. However, I glanced over and he had changed the cables back to my Soundking!!! So at this point I thought the Soundking sounded better. But then he switched the cables around several more times without letting me know which were hooked up. I couldnt tell which was playing...
At that point, I didn't really understand why he would even use the Monster z1's if it didnt make a difference in the sound. He said that one of his audiophile buddies gave them to him when he upgraded to some nicer cables, and the z1's looked nice so he kept them.
Perhaps the Z1's are just *bad* like the Soundking, but I really doubt it... I thought that there was a huge difference between the two, but when I didnt know which one was playing I couldn't even hear a difference. Hopefully my cousin can borrow some of his friend's high end cables to compare with later on.
- Re: After comparing cables, I think Jitter_by_Coffee is right - Jitter_by_Coffee 18:59:56 10/21/03 (0)
  "but when I didnt know which one was playing I couldn't even hear a difference."
  This has been reported on more than one occasion.
Re: Is my speaker wire good enough? - Jason Boehle 12:31:15 10/21/03 (0)
I heartily recommend the CC 89259 DIY recipe. Don't know how long your runs are, but I would guess you can keep the total cost under $100. If you don't want to DIY, check the Asylum classfieds - there are plenty of options there that you may like better than your "zip cord".
Hope this helps!
-Jason
That cable is zip cord - Todd B. 23:15:12 10/20/03 (14)
Zip cord sounds bad. DIY is probably best bang for the buck. I personally have been using bulk Kimber Kable. You have a number of options, but definitely get rid of the zip cord.
_____________________________
"But this is the plastic age,
the quiet rage
is damned and civilized."
--Echobelly, "Ondine"
- Re: That cable is zip cord - Jitter_by_Coffee 12:22:49 10/21/03 (13)
  "Zip cord sounds bad"
  Really. Have real evidence, or is this just your opinion?
  "DIY is probably best bang for the buck. I personally have been using bulk Kimber Kable."
  Interesting, telling someone to go DIY, yet you aren't following your own advice.
  "but definitely get rid of the zip cord"
  Because you say so?
  - Jitter me this - Todd B. 23:25:08 10/21/03 (6)
    "Really. Have real evidence, or is this just your opinion?"
    The evidence is in listening to a comparison of zip cord and better sounding cables. Even Kimber's $0.80/foot KWIK-16 sounds better than any zip cord that I've ever heard, and that was in a mass-market quality system, no less.
    "Interesting, telling someone to go DIY, yet you aren't following your own advice."
    It's really not that interesting, I just don't want to build the cables. Stripping bulk Kimber is labor-intensive enough.
    "Because you say so?"
    No, because zip cord sounds bad.
    _____________________________
    "But this is the plastic age,
    the quiet rage
    is damned and civilized."
    --Echobelly, "Ondine"
    - Re: Jitter me this - Jitter_by_Coffee 09:18:17 10/22/03 (5)
      "The evidence is in listening to a comparison of zip cord and better sounding cables."
      But it comes down to how, which cannot be discussed on this forum.
      "No, because zip cord sounds bad."
      You've said this twice now without evidence. Therefore, one could only conclude that it is your opinion.
      - COOL IT! - The Moderation Group 10:14:54 10/23/03 (0)
        
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      - Re: Jitter me this - Jon Risch 10:10:40 10/23/03 (1)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Jitter me this posted by Jitter_by_Coffee on October 22, 2003 at 09:18:17:
        
        No demands for DBT type evidence allowed.
        
        Jon Risch
        
        Re: Jitter me this - Jitter_by_Coffee 18:27:25 10/23/03 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Jitter me this posted by Jon Risch on October 23, 2003 at 10:10:40:
        
        Never made any. You're assuming.
      - Sure you can discuss it - Todd B. 00:15:28 10/23/03 (1)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Jitter me this posted by Jitter_by_Coffee on October 22, 2003 at 09:18:17:
        
        "But it comes down to how, which cannot be discussed on this forum."
        You replace the old cable with the new cable and listen to it. Then you discuss how the replacement sounded different to you, just like you might do with any other component replacement.
        I don't recall that you've ever posted about your experiences with comparing different cables. Have you, and maybe I just missed it?
        "You've said this twice now without evidence. Therefore, one could only conclude that it is your opinion."
        As I said, the evidence is in the listening to different cables. In the systems I've used, the differences between zip cord and everything else I've tried are easy to hear.
        _____________________________
        "But this is the plastic age,
        the quiet rage
        is damned and civilized."
        --Echobelly, "Ondine"
        
        Re: Sure you can discuss it - Jitter_by_Coffee 09:07:08 10/23/03 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Sure you can discuss it posted by Todd B. on October 23, 2003 at 00:15:28:
        
        Uhm, no.
  - Re: Is the Monster z1 zip cord? - Jerry Parker 14:52:39 10/21/03 (5)
    If so, perhaps thats why it sounded the same as the Soundking?
    But that still doesnt explain why I thought I heard a difference until my cousin tricked me.
    - No, it's not zip cord - Todd B. 23:45:06 10/21/03 (3)
      Zip cord looks like the power cable on a lamp: two straight conductors running next to each other, enclosed in a PVC(?) sheath.
      One thing you might try is to leave the Monsters in your system for a while and listen to several discs, giving yourself time to get used to the sound. Then put your old zip cord back in, listen to the same discs, and see if you hear a difference. This procedure apparently helps some people with identifying the different sonic signatures cables have. The resolution of your system will also be a factor here: the more resolving the components you're using, the more obvious cable differences will be.
      While I haven't heard the Monster cable you used, and don't know how it's sound might differ from zip cord, I have used Kimber Kable KWIK-16 in the following system:
      Onkyo TX-8211 receiver
      Sony CDP-XE500 CD player
      Paradigm Titan speakers
      XLO TwinAx+ interconnects
      The Kimber sounded better than 14 AWG zip cord, and at $0.80/foot in bulk it's very inexpensive.
      _____________________________
      "But this is the plastic age,
      the quiet rage
      is damned and civilized."
      --Echobelly, "Ondine"
      - Re: Why do that? - Jerry Parker 10:31:34 10/22/03 (2)
        
        In Reply to: No, it's not zip cord posted by Todd B. on October 21, 2003 at 23:45:06:
        
        I know what zip cord is, its just that I couldn't tell if the Monster was zip cord or not because it has a thick sheath over it.
        Get used to the sound? I couldnt tell any difference, how would that help me get used to the sound if I couldnt hear a difference to begin with? And the longer the time is between listening between cables, how am I supposed to know that what I am hearing is not just in my mind as before? It seems to me that if I cannot hear a difference right off the bat from carefull listening, I am certainly not going to hear it hours down the road.
        
        Getting used to the sound - Jon Risch 19:52:10 10/22/03 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Why do that? posted by Jerry Parker on October 22, 2003 at 10:31:34:
        
        Think about when you first got your new Pi speakers.
        You had some sort of speakers for sound/stereo/TV before. I am betting the Pi speakers sounded much better than what you had.
        You were able to immediately appreciate what they did for the sound.
        However, when you first got them, it is likely that you were not able to fully appreciate ALL the subtle improvements they provided, if for no other reason that it would take a wide variety of music to hear ALL the factors that improved. In other words, not all of what the Pi's truly offered over the old speakers can be heard on each song or just one song, it takes a variety of sounds and tones and songs to fully bring out all of what is going on, and this takes time to hear and appreciate.
        Once you got used to what the Pi's were doing for you, if you were to go back to the old speakers you had been using, I am sure that the amount of improvement that you thought you heard initially, is not as much as the amount you would hear after having lived with the Pi speakers for a while. You learned to hear the extra level of performance the Pi's offered, and can now more fully appreciate their full performance.
        Part of this is that you had to learn what the Pi speakers could do that the old speakers could not do. You had to become more familiar with an increase in the clarity of the sounds, the more specific placement of instruments and voices, etc., all the various qualities that make the Pi speakers sound good to you were not necessarily noticed in the first couple of minutes, or even after a few hours.
        This tends to be true of all audio components, and not all of them reach out and hit you over the head with their performance as much as speakers do. Speakers have the most amount of variance in terms of absolute performance capabilities of an audio component.
        In terms of noticing more and more differences in the performance betwen two components, the larger the change in quality, the longer the learning process takes, as there is more to learn, more to notice for the first time.
        Listening long term, and then going back to the old component is one of the best ways to truly evaluate an audio component.
        Where you might have felt that you went from a 4 to a 6 on a scale of one to ten, after listening to the Pi speakers long term, and then listenign again to the old ones, you might change your mind, and say that it was more like a 3 to a 7.
        I will be one of the first to say that audio cable differences are not in the same league as speaker differences, cable differences are of a more subtle nature.
        However, given that a huge numbner of people are convinced that they do actually make some sort of difference, and each of us reacts differently to them, the ONLY way we can see what matters to US, is to listen for ourselves. Some folks find that once they reach a certain level of cable performance, any further 'improvements' just are not worth it. Going from a set of zip cords to some decent entry level cables may be all that some folks ever feel is worth spending on, and even though they may notice or hear some slight difference between their $100 cables and the $1000 or $5000 cables, they decide that the extra $ are not worth it TO THEM, on THEIR SYSTEM, AT THAT TIME.
        After a few years of listening, upgrading, learnign to hear more subtle things, they might then feel that something other than zip cords are worth getting.
        Given that a set of $100 (or as I recommend in my URL at AR, a set of $140 cables), is not that much, and that one can at least rest assured that they have gone beyond the very basic (and limited) performance of zip cords, it makes sense to go that far, and then you know that the cables are not THE bottleneck.
        I noticed that you did not mention what kind of interconnects you have,
        it is possible that they are a contributing factor in limiting what can be heard with the speaker cables. While the limitations of IC's and speakers cables are not entirely the same, they are similar in what they do to the music. An IC that was the limiting factor could mask things that otherwise would be heard when comparing speaker cables.
        Finally, you should beware of deriving any firm conclusions from your limited exposure to one single instance of one form of an amatuer listening test, that may or may not have been as sensitive as needed to actually show the real world differences that exist. Some folks try to place entirely too much importance on the results of such limited tests, without properly considering all the scientific factors involved, and how things could go wrong.
        Due to the inevitable problems that surround the discussion of DBT's and ABX type listening tests, they are not allowed in this forum.
        See:
        http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/dbt.html
        However, discussion of them is allowed on other forums, and if you do a search for them, you will find quite a few posts on the subject. Try searching the PropHeads forum for starters.
        
        Jon Risch
        
        Re: Why do that? - Ted Smith 14:04:42 10/22/03 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Why do that? posted by Jerry Parker on October 22, 2003 at 10:31:34:
        
        Howdy
        I'm not trying to talk you into any particular cord, what ever sounds best to you or if they sound similar, which ever is cheaper for you is fine by me.
        But listening for a while does have some benefits. You get used to a particular presentation and then sometimes the changes are more obvious when you change. Also sometimes short listen sessions don't expose some of a cable's faults, for example short listening sessions won't reveal that a particular cable (along with your system) may be a little fatiguing when a longer session might.
        -Ted
    - Re: Is the Monster z1 zip cord? - Jitter_by_Coffee 18:55:07 10/21/03 (0)
      Your cousin tricked you?!?!? Well....
      I looked around and the only picture I could find is not obvious, but it doesn't appear to be.
Re: Is my speaker wire good enough? - Jon Risch 19:49:08 10/20/03 (3)
See:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/s1.htm
and
Easy coaxial based speaker cables (Belden 8213):
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/s3.htm
and
http://forums14.consumerreview.com/crforum?14@135.YKYSaZqthUs^0@.ef6863c/8
(ignore the peanut gallery responses at that site).

Jon Risch
- Re: Speaker cable out of video cable? - Jerry Parker 14:50:04 10/21/03 (1)
  Hmmm, I don't really see the point as to why you strip coaxial cables and connect them together as speaker wire? How is this better than my Soundking? I assume it sounds better, but what makes it better? I also read that website Jitterbycoffe posted about proving your cable to not sound better. Which one am I supposed to trust? You and him both say the exact opposite.
  I read that consumer review website, and that doesnt make sense either. You are saying I should buy better cables even though I can't hear a difference? If I can't hear the difference now, I doubt I can hear it later on, because AFAIK hearing gets worse as you age. And that post talks about blind tests. Isnt that a "DBT"? I thought that discussion of that sort wasn't allowed in this forum? If so, why isnt it?
  - You raise an interesting point. - Pat D 19:28:01 10/21/03 (0)
    Actually, several. But I'll stick to one: The audition as described would at most be a rather informal Single Blind Test or SBT. The rules don't forbid SBTs, but hardly anyone mentions them here.
    ____________________________________________________________
    "Nature loves to hide."
    ---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
    - http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/dbt.html (Open in New Window)
- Hmmm.....the peanut gallery...... - Jitter_by_Coffee 12:13:51 10/21/03 (0)
  http://forums14.consumerreview.com/crforum?14@166.2zxRac0WlTF.0@.ef6863c/18
  http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/CrossCoax_vs_ZipCord-p1.htm
Re: Is my speaker wire good enough? - Whell 12:20:18 10/20/03 (3)
Sound King is a "run of the mill" copper cable, without much shielding. You can do significantly better. I've seen last years model Monster M series cable go for decent prices on Audiogon. While Monster is not top of the line, it certainly offers better shielding, and good dynamics. IT tends to be somewhat forgiving to certain solid state amps, though some have characterized that as a "grainy" sound. I currently use Monster M1.4 bi wire, and have a great results.
- Re: Is my speaker wire good enough? - Jitter_by_Coffee 12:19:34 10/21/03 (0)
  Shielding? Unless there was a special need, speaker cables do not need shielding.
  Monster is overpriced wire. The Sound King is fine. Spend your money on more music until someone(anyone) actually comes up with hard evidence that proves their superior audiblity claims.
- Re: Is my speaker wire good enough? - Jerry Parker 17:46:52 10/20/03 (0)
  I thought Monster Cable was like the Bose of interconnects?
  And I also would like to know how the speaker cable would be shielded, and why you would do that?
- Re: Is my speaker wire good enough? - pburke 12:28:23 10/20/03 (0)
  why do you need shielding in speaker cables?

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