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In Reply to: Wrong posted by Ted Smith on September 20, 2003 at 17:28:39:
Hi TedOK, I take on board what you say about Jon's "proper" job, but he has set himself up as a cable guru and, as I see it, tends to blind his readers with probably true but irrelevant information about the virtues of the crazy sport of spending daft amounts of hard earned cash on the last few feet of our mains supply cabling. If he is such an expert, I wonder why he doesn't make a living from this expertise. I notice that you have $300-500 cables! I wonder what cable there is between the back of your IEC sockets and the transformers ie the last few inches of AC. Most equipment will use wire no better than what's in the derided OEM cable.
Batteries can, of course be recharged without turning off your 24/7 equipment. You are surely not listening 24/7, so recharge them when you're at work, maybe? My point is that if AC is the monstrous evil we are led to believe it is by the likes of Jon, don't use it - use pure and simple DC and no cable at all, neither OEM nor $1000.
Only my thoughts, of course. It's what we listen to that really counts.
Peter
Follow Ups:
HowdyWhy do people spread such rumors about Jon (or others). I consider it irresponsible.
Jon doesn't sell cables, work for a company that sells cables or recommend expensive cables, read his posts and his site more carefully, he just recommends that people consider cables better than stock, gives some motivational arguments and makes some suggestions about how to build some.
I don't agree with all of his recommendations, but I don't agree with all of what any particular person says. I don't see him as setting himself up as a cable guru; I see him as sharing the experience he's gained in his life with others. Take it or leave it.
The cable that is inside the equipment is in a different environment that the cable that's outside. In so far as shielding is important in power cables this matters.
As to my cables, I know what cable is in my equipment do you? I also know what people think when they hear my system and I know that I enjoy it too. What do you care about how I spend my money? I don't tell you how to spend yours and neither does Jon.
Besides the links at the top of Jon's original post he was just pointing out that the 'miles and miles of wire vs. the last 6 ft.' is a fallacy. You are the one trying to read something else into it.
I was just pointing out that some of us (probably not most) don't have time for charging batteries. We could of course charge enough different sets of batteries while we are playing that when the ones we are using run low we have others to swap in, but I know that I'd pay more for than I pay for power cords to not have this inconvenience. I am home most all of the time and what work I do I do to music at home. I'm just pointing out that there isn't any down time in some people's system. I never claimed to be normal :) Yes there are some systems that are DC powered, but so far their prices are out of sight or have other inconveniences, etc.
Anyway your AC/DC arguments are red herrings, we all have equipment that requires good AC and whether it matters to you or not, it matters to some of us what power cords we use.
I would not presume to tell people what to spend their money on, but many seem to be carried away with the idea that mains is far worse than it is and that a "quick fix" of the last few feet will make a significant improvement.If it was just screening that makes the difference then screened AC cable is a couple of dollars a meter. My point about what's inside the case is more than simply the screening aspect. The wire itself is nothing special, beacuase manufacturers know it's really not that critical.
Battery powered equipment (except hungry power amps) can be easily built without the need for spare batteries or effort in recharging. When not listening, they can be switched to "recharge" whether or not you turn off the supply to the equipment. Simple as a regular On/Off switch, but reading Charge/Run or something. The reason most equipment is AC powered is simply that AC is in fact, a perfectly acceptable form of power and manufactures are quite content for its use in their equipment.
Let's agree to differ on this - I would prefer spend the thousands that some spend on conditioning AC on better equipment where there is a genuine payback.
PS I'm not suggesting that better cables make NO difference, but that a carefully designed screened cable of the type Chris Venhaus promotes (and Jon for that matter) will do all that's necessary. Spending more than the $50 or so (and that includes vast mark ups) is money not necessarily wisely spent. Those who believe the AC is so bad that several '000 are needed, should be looking to DC instead.
HowdyYou are still presuming that some of us didn't do as you suggested and then found that even better cords made more difference.
I first got dedicated lines that made a heck of a difference. Then I tried more and more expensive power cords and stopped when I got to an optimum. In fact many of the cords that were even more expensive than the ones I have sounded worse. I even used single blind tests on my daughter at each upgrade.
You also didn't read my messages very well. I never have any down time for recharge.
Oh, well. As you suggest our time is better spent listening to music than arguing.
Putting on my Moderator hat: don't spread more rumors here.
Hi TedWhat you say genuinely astonishes me. I can understand that unshielded AC cables in the usual tangle of wires at the back of ones rack is likely to upset signal cables, so I'm fully in favour of changing to screened cable. However, when you objectively consider what happens with the AC once inside the equipment, all this talk of megabucks cables makes no logical sense to me. Firstly as suggested before, the wiring between the socket and transformer is unlikely to be much better than what's in OEM cables. Then what happens? The AC goes into a transformer - hundreds of coils of copper wire doubled back on itself - the supply going in and out of the primary winding. This causes a fresh AC supply to be generated in the secondary coil, which has no physical or electrical contact with the primary. One wonders how imperfections in the AC cable can possibly adversely affect this new supply, now in the independent secondary winding. The rest of the equipment's power circuit rectifies, smooths and stores this secondary supply for use by transistors, valves, etc. In other words it tries to mimic a battery. Surely a well designed circuit can cope with an incoming supply deprived of a $1000 cable for the last few feet? As I say, it is astonishing to me that this should be the case and I would dearly like a logical explanation of physics I have may have missed.
I am happy though to believe that a decently designed amplifier is not adversely affected by a standard AC cable in the same way my washing machine washes just as well with an OEM cable as a $1000 one (OK I'm jesting, but you get the point!). Otherwise, as I have suggested earlier, manufacturers would not put up with grotty AC.
Incidentally even Maggie Thatcher, bless her heart (if she actually hadf one), admitted to spending 3 hours a night in bed. Plenty of time to recharge batteries!
I'm off to listen to music via my sub $50 AC cables - doesn't Eva Cassidy have an astonishing voice?
Peter
What you say about the internal transformer is only partial correct.
If it was a "perfect transformer" like those tault at college then you are correct. BUT in the REAL world with real components nothing is that simple. firstly there will be a coupling between the primary and seconday windings caused by the phyical spacing between them. ie they are capacitivly coupled, this will let through noise.
secondly the transformer core dependant on its material constuction, will also allow non 50/60Hz frequency coupling.
thirdly any RF on the line will travel on the outer surface of any metal, it can jump across the transformer and capactivly couple itself to the equipments DC line without too much problem.Since most equipment manufacurer dont "design their" equipment to any great degree of noise immunity or rejection (those that do produce broadcast quality suff at a large price multiplier), we are left with a far less than perfect ("it will do @ that price") level of equipment.
Hence we are left to the snake oil saleman, and the genuine engineer/designer, and ferrite rings, JR & CVH and others to try and solve the problems. This is one of the reason that so much discussion goes on about mains, and cables in general. The others are lack of indepth knowledge, arrogance, ignorance, pride, prejudice, stupiity or any of the other deadly sins.
Incidently the platting of any wire is known to reduce the noise level of a signal on it. Kimber and others have made a lot of money out of this known fact. and not a serpent in sight.
HowdyWell, not everyone is like you. I need sound to sleep. Otherwise other distractions keep me awake.
I, Jon and others have answered, or at least tried to answer your other questions. I'm an EE and fully understand where you are coming from and used to be just as sure of myself and just as wrong. Listen for yourself, things make a difference and everyone has different systems, preferences and pocketbooks. You don't seem to understand that the components we use don't exactly match their mathematical models. A good engineer understands the limits of their models and keeps an open mind when things don't work like the math says it should. Better engineers figure out what's wrong with the models, refine them and build better products.
Is adding a $1000 power cord the most cost effective thing to do? It depends on your budget, how much your time is worth, how much custom engineering you are willing to do or pay for, etc. I never claimed it was the best for you. You also may note, that I don't use $1000 cords myself, but I have friends who do and I sure as heck can tell the difference in their systems when cheaper cords are used.
Once again, the environment inside a unit isn't the same as outside, shielding is the most obvious difference. Also some of us have replaced internal point to point wiring with better quality wiring, others of us have bought components with high quality wiring already built in.
Ralph Vaughn Williams spinning here.
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