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Last month I purchased 10' of Belden 5000 from Blue Jeans Cables and I now have a 3 meter pair of Nordost Red Dawn(shotgun) for sale....I thought at $0.57/foot for single run or $1.14 for a pair, I couldnt really go wrong so I gave them a shot. To my ears they deliver the same performance of the Speltz Anti-Cable and are slightly less transparent than the Nordost Red Dawn, and I mean slightly. That is the only differece I noticed and it isnt a $1078 difference.
Between the Speltz and the Blue Jeans they sound the same, but the Blue Jeans are easier to use, come in raw cable (which I need for my amp), and are cheaper.
I know that without constant A/B listening I will not remember the sonic differences between the Nordost and Blue Jeans, but I will appreciate the 60 extra cd's I can buy with the money I saved.
Follow Ups:
I was comparing the BlueJeans 5000 to the cheap Cardas line. Cheap is a relative term here as the Cardas still cost me over $100 for the set. I honestly don't remember if it was $100 or $190. I have had them for years.
In the end I put the Cardas cable back in. The Belden 5000 was an attempt at raising the "Spouse Acceptance Factor" because it was white and seemed like quality cable. I only put about 50 hours of music through the BlueJeans cable.
The sonic differences were small but certainly worth it to use the Cardas. The Cardas is a tad warm sounding but it is also more transparent with better delineation in the highs. Symbols and air are just done right with the Cardas whereas the BlueJeans was a little more up-front with seemingly more detail but in the long term, actually less inner detail. I may have some synergy going on here as the Bryston B100 SST that I use is extremely neutral. I find it neither warm not cold and the resolution is good enough to hear the differences in other components more clearly.
Somewhere there is speaker cable with the same aspects. The Cardas is slightly warm and the Belden 5000 a smidge cold. These are very small differences but I'll take every improvement I can get. Any good system is a collection of small victories anyway. ;) Some day I will find a cable between these two.
Insightful post. I too use the Brystons, 7BSSTs, but I have yet to find the "expensive" cable to win me.
to look at this in a different perspective . Say arbitrarily you have 100x noise in your system at present and the Nordost makes a 6x improvement in that figure (assuming everything that isn't music is noise i.e. emi/rfi , thd ,etc,etc,etc ) . At this time you try the blue jean cable , and it makes a 2x improvement . We'll all agree that the difference is negligible . But what Jon is trying to say is at some point after you've made a bunch of improvements , and the noise figure is only 20x , You would notice and appreciate the improvement of the Red Dawn alot more. Instead of hardly hearing the difference , it would be a quantum leap in improvement .
If you do not plan on making improvements at a later date and are keeping your present components forever then it does make sense to sell the Nordost , if you you plan on updating components at a later date , I would hold on to them . Your choice ;~))
Enjoy the music
Thanks, I think that this is a pretty concise explanation. Let me make sure I understand, though. Are you saying that with better components the Nordost will make a more appreciable effect? eg you wouldnt notice as much with an NAD system but more so with a Pass Labs setup? If this is the case, then yes I should keep them, as I am sure that I will one day upgrade.You guys keep pushing the Nordost, but does it really ever make a 60 CD value improvement...meaning, will I sit back with the Blue Jeans and gladly trade the purchase of 60 CDs for its sonic improvement. I know that this is relative, but 60 CDs!!
I need to update my system info at AA but here is what I am currently using:
Spendor SP 1/2e on Sound Anchors with Blu Tac
Hovland Radia
Hovland HP-100
Audio Note CDT2 transport
Kora Hermes DAC
Audio Research ICs
Blue Jeans Belden 5000 speaker wireCarpeted 19x20 with treatments behind speakers
Another point is that when I noticed the slightly cleaner sound from the Nordost, I soon forgot the difference about 5 mins into the music. Will the lack of Nordost stick out so much that I will consistently think of it while listening? If not, then I will probably keep the Blue Jeans because I will always miss 60 CDs.
In the end, to my ear, the sonic differences in cabling and power chords are more mental, not aural...ie having that piece of mind that all my components are top quality is more mentally satisfying than aurally satisfying.
"In the end, to my ear, the sonic differences in cabling and power chords are more mental, not aural..."If this is the case in your experience, then your desire for 60 CD's instead of a cable upgrade is the obvious choice. In my case, each and every cable I use in my system are vital aspects of overall system performance and enjoyment. I would not trade them for their equivalent value in CD's...
Actually , with your equipment , I would think you would hear more of a difference . My example is taken from years ago when I was using some modified hafler amps and preamps , the noise in comparison to the present system was huge and the overall presentation not very musical . Am now using a transport to NOS DAC to tube preamp feeding an ARC amp to Modified MG IIIa's and a velodyne sub . Absolutely any up stream changes I make seem to make very big differences in the total presentation . Last week I switched in a cheap dvd player for a transport instead of my usual CD player for a transport (bits is bits , right?). everything became smoother with way less bass slam and a minor discontinuity in the upper midrange . I ultimately got really fatigued with the upper midrange thing and missed the bass slam so I swapped back . With the old system one would not have even heard the midrange problem , or the bass either .Anyway , after seeing your list of components if you can't hear much difference I would go for the CD's . Especially if your pleased with the sound of your system and are not going to be updating a lot equipment in the future ;~)) This is ultimately not an equipment race , when you reach audio nurvana stick with it and enjoy the tunes .
You heard changes with the transport, but are the cable changes just as noticable?I too have had poor luck with dvd players as transports. My last, the Pioneer Elite universal player wore me out in under 2 days. You described it exactly, "fatiguing." I became bored with the music so much sooner when I used the DVD player as opposed to my Kora/Audio Note. Of course the price difference was 10x greater but it easily equated since I had more than 10x the enjoyment out of my CDs.
I don't think that cable changes are as great as transport changes , that said , Ive read a lot of posts saying bits are bits and there should not be any change if you change transports and use the same DAC .I am very impressed with your use of the AN transport and Kora Hermes DAC . When I read your 1st post I made the assumption you were using entry level equipment . It seems your choice of gear is so musical that the choice of speaker cable is really secondary to the enjoyment of that musicality . That's really cool !!! My choice 16 years ago of MG IIIa's has made me be very careful of the down stream equipment i've had to use over the years . You tend to hear every bit of digital and emi/rfi nasties ,also the lack of mid and low bass in the Mg IIIa's has made for some "lean" times so to speak . So for me the cleaner I get the sound the more musical nirvana I have and doing things to develope more bass (Mye stands , wings etc). If I had gotten some top of the line box speakers 16 years ago instead I may have been happier in the long run . But right now I'm in hog heaven ;~))
First, I think it is important to acknowledge that you did hear a difference between the Nordost Red Dawn and the Belden 5000.In your words, it was slight. However, that is what it sounds like to you at this particular point in your journey of appreciating music and artistry.
Looking at your system, it is apparent that you feel that music playback is for more than just background music, or you would not have invested in the other components you have.
So it is entirely possible, that at some later date, either when you have more sheer experience with listening to well reproduced music, or have acquired even finer quality audio playback components, or some combination of both, that you might also find that you will appreciate that slight difference more than you do now.
My point is, that what does not seem to be worthwhile at this point in time, you may later feel to be a worthy addition or change to your playback system. It would be unwise to dismiss such things out of hand, and to close the door on improved audio performance permanently.
Note that each incremental improvement in sound quality does not cost the same amount, it costs more and more to reach each level of quality. Thus, in order to gain slight improvements, the cost difference can be significant.
How much each level is worth to you is, of course, what matters, but my point is that the relative worth can change too, it will not be a constant for all time.
PS., I noted that your system description has Monster cable listed for the speaker cables, I am assuming that you upgraded to the Nordost Red Dawn speaker cables. If this system and room are the only ones you listen to/in, then it might be difficult to hear the advantages of a well portrayed sound field that presents a solid stable and panoramic image, and thus, probably half of what one can hear with high performance audio cables may be absent, or at the least, greatly reduced, compared to playback in a larger room with acoustic treatment.
Just some food for thought.Best of luck and happy listening on your journey!
If you are arguing that I should keep the Nordost because I may, in the future, come to like them more, then why not keep everything that I dont like, because you never know? Also, if I dont know how I will like/dislike them in the future, then how do you know that I wont dislike them more as I get older?You say that my current path is "unwise" but I think that most people tend to follow the same path of keeping what they like and selling what they dont like. You dont find too many people who audition a speaker, dislike the sound, and buy it anyway because they may like it in the future. Which sounds more unwise?
I am not closing the door on future sonic upgrades, as you say I am; but I have found a poor dollar/sonic improvement ratio in the Nordost, ie diminishing return. This is not a value statement, eg "all Nordost is worthless," rather I am just posting my experience with these 3 cables. Since there is no "right" answer, I hope readers dont misconstrue my choice as absolute truth...this is just what I have chosen and why.
I think if you disagree and love Nordost, you could say that and why. Your mileage may vary is quite a popular phrase here and I believe that it is fitting. I didnt post my comments to berrate Nordost, rather I just wanted to put the word out on a cable that I find to be money saving and not well renowned. Some people, myself especially, love to hear of alternative ways to saving cash while not affecting, or not too adversely affecting the performance. Cash saved for me translates to more cd's to buy...you?
I am not arguing that you should keep them, just that you should not write off high performance cables for the long run.Maybe now, the Nordost cables do not offer enough of a sonic difference on your system, with your current tastes and experience. However, at some point in the future, when such a high performance cable might offer that last bit of extra realism that makes the music that much more enjoyable, they could be worth every penny.
BTW, I am not at all a big Nordost only fan, they make excellent cables which provide very high performance, but they are pricey. In case my name does not sound familiar, I am the guy who made Belden 89259 so popular as a raw coax for DIY.
See:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/i1.htm
and
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/s1.htm
and associated pages.So you see, I am all for saving some money to buy more music, I just want to hear every little detail and nuance possible along the way.
I see what you are saying...as my sytem is upgraded I may appreciate the high performance/cost cable. But as a Do-It-Yourelfer, do you ever see yourself buying the Tara Labs Zero or Nordost Valhalla before you hit the lottery?
First, I don't count on hitting the lottery, or even fantasize about it, waste of time.Second, no, I would probably not be in the market for either one of those, since I have some very excellent DIY audio cables, of custom length (just long enough to reach the various components), and custom construction. I think that the biggest thing I have going, is that ALL of my audio system's cables are well beyond "stock" or OEM quality levels, and so, as a whole, they tend to not limit what the system can do.
However, my secret weapon is that I am a professional loudspeaker system designer, and have a one-of-a-kind near SOTA speaker system, and a room well treated with acoustic treatments. (See:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a.htm
particularly,
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a1.htm )
Jon Risch
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