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In Reply to: RE: Ignore the doubters! posted by cpotl on September 22, 2015 at 06:44:53:
What I am proposing is not a complete abandonment to relativity, although there is a very good argument for that.I am suggesting that a proper investigation of such phenomena must recognize a vast range of variability, between subjects and even for one human subject in different CONTEXTS. Important point, CONTEXT.
Humans live think and understand the world IN CONTEXTS.
James Brown screaming "Hit me!" in a song is a lot different from mqracing going up to a Philly cop and screaming "Hit me!" meaning and significance ALWAYS depends on context. Always.
Also we must recognize listening knowledge and skills, some of which are physiological, some cultural, some based on learning and development through experience and a few other factors I could add to the list.
In a Physics lab, context can be controlled. In the real world of human action, no.
I'm sure some such formal tests are done using young folks who never even heard an LP or proper stereo, only phones and ipod docks. How can they be compared to a pro recording engineer or somebody like many of us who is a lifelong super audio geek? We learn how to listen for things that don't matter so much to civilians, or as I like to call em...Normals. :op
I'd say that Pierre catching Slagle playing with the labels is a good test, for Pierre. And for Slagle, I might add!
I think the big problem here is the question of whether anybody else can hear what Pierre and Ron have been focusing in on for 30 years? Maybe some people can do this off the bat, some can learn, and some will never ever hear it.
Now, let's recognize that a test situation is a lot different mindset and perceptual platform than drinking a beer and listening to Jazz. I strongly contest that one substitutes for the other.
Can Pieere pick this directionality bit out while casually listening to jazz? How about some weird-ass Chinese music? Can he hear it on a Magnavox tube console or only on a super high rez tweaked out monster system?
Things that pop out and impress during a test might not matter or be serious drawbacks in extended natural listening contexts. Things that work in extended listening.... sense of flow, puts you in a nice chilled out mood, whatever...auditory inputs leading to those evaluations might not appear or seem important in a quick A-B.
So if we are looking for positive solid answers, this is fruitless. The world is too complex and so are the people listening.
If one person is fooling himself, does it matter. I find that over time I realize when I have been fooling myself and if I don't then it is a really great illusion.,,,and it might not matter if it is an illusion.
There is no general science here. No universal answers. Every result is embedded in and refers back to a unique historical event involving a listener and everything else in the universe around him as it is configured at a particular time and place.
Now, this is not a totally unscientific notion...think of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle that extends this logic out to empirical events. Without a situated observer, there is nothing to say about an event or phenomenon without characterizing the observer and the presence of the observer changes and helps create the phenomenon.In any human research, this concern comes to the fore.
Hope this is a helpful insight. I appreciate the question and understand the motivations behind it, however...
The project to nail this stuff down 100% for certain in scientific lab testing is a fool's errand.
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Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein
Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
Edits: 09/22/15
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Follow Ups
- Variability and context - Joe Roberts 08:16:49 09/22/15 (5)
- RE: Variability and context - cpotl 15:49:00 09/22/15 (4)
- RE: Variability and context--Key point - Joe Roberts 05:58:08 09/29/15 (3)
- RE: Variability and context--Key point - cpotl 07:21:08 10/02/15 (2)
- RE: Variability and context--Key point - Joe Roberts 08:06:20 10/02/15 (1)
- RE: Variability and context--Key point - cpotl 08:49:53 10/02/15 (0)
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