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In Reply to: RE: the glass is half full/the glass is half empty posted by KlausR. on December 15, 2007 at 23:12:15
"If you read the relevant chapters of Everest you will see that he does not condemn reflections and being bad, no matter what, and have to be removed. Everest says that, according to Toole & Olive, you can use lateral reflections for modifying spatial impression which makes treatment of reflections in the median plane necessary. This is a different approach from the very outset. Toole basically uses the same approach in his 2006 AES paper."I'm well aware of that. By the glass half full/half empty, what I meant is that you see the statement you referred to when you said "…he does not condemn reflections and being bad, no matter what, and have to be removed" as meaning that reflections don't have to be treated while I see it as meaning that, while they don't have to be treated, benefits can be obtained by an appropriate level of treatment and by that I am not talking about total removal.
While I accept that the asymmetry of my room causes special problems, I stand by my position as stated above. You seem to prefer an extremely minimalist approach where treatment must actually be essential before anything needs to be done and I see treatment as offering a way to improve the sound being obtained.
In your response to Ethan above, you stated:
""threshold data do not describe the percept of audible reflections, that is, what multidimensional perceptual changes occur when reflections are above threshold”
and
“reflections might be clearly audible but not perceived as disturbing”
This paper describes the only attempt I known of where music has been used for coloration/decoloration experiments and the experiment has been abandoned!"I haven't seen that paper but I will make 1 comments on the second of your quotes. That is that “reflections might be clearly audible but not perceived as disturbing” does not mean that audible reflections are never perceived as disturbing. It's a statement that under some circumstances they aren't disturbing. It implies that they are disturbing at other levels and gives no mention of when they become disturbing or how they do so. I can appreciate the need for brief quotes but with that one what is revealed is interesting and what is concealed—when and how they become disturbing—is what is truly vital.
You also said:
"When designing coloration experiments one has to be very careful that the test subjects judge coloration and not change in spatial impression. Simply placing absorbers or diffusers to find that "absorption won hands down" just won't do it!"
While Ethan can certainly answer for himself, I will simply say that I did not get the feeling Ethan was talking about the result of a colouration experiment. My interpretation of his comments was that what he was saying was that in OVERALL terms—ie not colouration individually or spatial effects individually, or anything individually but rather in terms of preference for the total effect produced by a given treatment or lack of it—he personally preferred absorption at side wall first reflection points to diffusion or a bare wall. I personally would also agree with that statement as a comment on my overall preference for treatment at those points in my room.
David Aiken
Edits: 12/16/07Follow Ups:
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