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Propeller Head Plaza Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics. |
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Propeller Head Plaza Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics. |
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In Reply to: RE: Measurement and Perception and the Value of Each (Long Post) posted by jrlaudio on November 3, 2012 at 11:13:19:
"You say, "it might be fruitless to try to correlate specific measured parameters to specific sonic attributes." Well actually all the sonic attributes you mention and many others already have specific measuremnt parameters that are well understood. Or at least the physics contibuting to these are understood. Both in terms of what is required from the system and how the ear/brain mechanisms detects and processes into a sound."Well, I'm not talking about the "many others," I'm only talking about the ones I mentioned. The last time I checked there is no soundstage analyzer, no transparency analyzer. There is no "musicality" analyzer. I would go so far as to say science, at least in the scientific organizations like AES and the Acoustic Society of America, to name two, appear to dismiss out of hand what is going on in the high end or very slow coming to terms with many aspects of this hobby - from exotic cables, to controversial tweaks, to wire directionality, to high end fuses, etc.
"To simply discount known science, and take people marketing highly profitable items at their words has never been wise. This is why I used the term Snake Oil. It alegedly cured all types ailments, even ones we haven't cured today, and it was sold at high profit on the correct presumption that most people didn't understand medical science. And it wasn't even snake oil, it was petroleum. And many people swore to it's healing properties based on their perception."
But nobody is dismissing science. The market is what it is. Just like any marketplace. There is a place for Ferrari and big Mercedes in the auto industry and there is a place for expensive speakers and cables and DACs in this industry. The snake oil argument is really just a strawman argument. This is audio, not medicine, so it's not logical to claim that because some medical remedy is ineffective or perhaps even a hoax that what you perceive as overly expensive audio products are over-priced, ineffective or hoaxes.
"And at the beginning of hi-end things were expensive, but not to the level we see today. I have not exagerated margins. Several $25,000 DAC's using the same chip set as many MP3 players exist. $15,000 loudspeakers are the average for hi-end these days. Preamps and amplifier in the $10,000 and up range are common. And I know most of them do not cost even a tenth of what they are sold for, including design and development."
Did you just wake up from a long sleep. If you want to make your point, I suggest you use 100,00 dollar loudspeakers, $10,000 cartridges, $30,000 amplifiers. But to say the prices you quoted are common or average is just not true. Besides, nobody pays retail. Especially in this economy. :-)
"The point is, it is not gamble for a manufacture to make a marginal product, price it very, very high to give perceived value, market it well and sell many. Aspecialy when they know the market is full of people who have fallen prey to deceptions that skew their perception. All based on faith."
Well, I dunno about all that. People are free to buy whatever they want to. If they don't like it they can certainly take it back.
"What I say to people in this hobby (as a person in the know so-to-speak) is know the details, know the facts, learn the science and you will find what you hear changes. You will hear what is a real wide soundstage versus one created by reflections, which are out of phase and indirect. You will find that you will enjoy the recordings more and worry less about getting the "next best newest that promises audio nirvana"."
I suspect it is probably easier than all that. All thst's required is to be able to hear, buy what you like and either return what you don't like or sell it on Audiogon.
"Oh and BTW, the last magazine that used its own labs to test products was Audio and they went away decades ago. The industry nailed that coffin by not advertising in it anymore, once they began talking about the real specs and performance of ultra hi-end products. No magazine now would dare to published anything other than the published spec of the manufacturer. And some accept full copy for the articles from the manufacturers. Ask Harry Pearson; right now with his disgust with what has happened to his mag AS, he is very quick to divulge the dirty little secrets going on today with magazines and hi-end. Both industries are trying to survive the MP3 generation."
Stereophile routinely measures performance of speakers, possibly other magazines do, too. Not sure I agree with your bleak analysis of the situation. People have been talking about the end of high end for at least 25 years. Harry was always free to leave or express himself, what took him so long? Seems like a case of sour grapes.
Edits: 11/03/12
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- RE: Measurement and Perception and the Value of Each (Long Post) - geoffkait 12:11:38 11/03/12 (0)
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