As I've been conversing about the audibility of wires and why measurements aren't detecing the differences some audiophiles hear, on a few different forums for some time now. I've noticed the discussion/debate/arguement time and time again eventually turns to where a proponent of the audibility of wires will usually state: The reason the various measurements don't detect the differences we hear is because these measurements are either insufficiently precise or else they're measuring the wrong things.
Inevitably when this type of suggestion is made, one of the opponents of the audibility of wires will typically imply making such a statement is irrational by stating something similar to this: For the rational, there is not much point making up or creating new measurements without something being wrong with the long accepted (by the technically literate) old ones.
So my questions are:
1) Why is it irrational to search for another scientific reason why the proponents of the audibility of wires are hearing differences "if" the measurements being used aren't detecting the differences some audiophiles hear?
2) Does true rational, scientific research stop all research into an unresolved issue when the issue isn't resolved via the current scientific tests and/or measurements they're using or do they continue to look for other alternative methods, reasons tests and/or measurements, in an attempt to resolve the issue?
3) Isn't the irrational view the one that proposes there is not much point making up or creating new tests or measurements without something being found wrong with the long accepted old ones, when it's quite possible there's absolutely nothing wrong with "the long accepted old ones" except for the the fact that they are not testing/measuring the correct things? For Example: A blood pressure test which is a long accepted and scientific test but, it wouldn't reveal if I had cancer. Detecting cancer required making up or creating new tests and/or measurements, even though the long accepted old blood pressure tests remained valid!
Isn't making up or creating new tests or measurements precisely what Einstein did? Afterall Einstein didn't disprove Newton's laws. He just showed that they were not complete. That's what proponents of wires are claiming. They don't find a problem with Maxwell’s electromagnetic theory. They simply believe the measurements being used on wires are either insufficiently precise or else they're measuring the wrong things, period. They're asking that more research be done and the opponents stop claiming either 30 years of DBTs have proved there are no differences to be heard or todays tests and measurements are sufficient!
I remember when I was much younger the scientists back then believed dinosuars were slow, stupid, lumbering beasts, not the swift, agile, intelligent predators we know them to be today! This change came because scientists didn't stop researching dinosaurs. Just imagine where the world would be today if these great scientists Galileo Galilei, Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, James Joule, Louis Pasteur, Bernhard Riemann, Joseph Clerk Maxwell, Werner Von Braun and Albert Einstein all believed there is not much point making up or creating any new tests and measurements without something being found wrong with the long accepted old ones first!
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
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Central Florida Audio Society & SETriodes Forum
"The man that hath no music in himself nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils."
- W. Shakespeare
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
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Topic - Wires & Scientific Research - thetubeguy1954 10:34:25 01/27/10 (40)
- RE: Wires & Scientific Research - gusser 11:47:47 02/08/10 (2)
- RE: Wires & Scientific Research - Tony Lauck 13:23:07 02/08/10 (1)
- RE: Wires & Scientific Research - gusser 15:06:38 02/08/10 (0)
- RE: Wires & Scientific Research - tomservo 19:21:25 01/27/10 (0)
- RE: Maxwell’s electromagnetic theory - Jon Risch 18:53:50 01/27/10 (10)
- Thanks for pointing that out. - Ugly 01:46:49 01/28/10 (9)
- RE: Thanks for pointing that out. - john curl 09:47:15 01/28/10 (8)
- RE: Thanks for pointing that out. - Ugly 10:37:05 01/28/10 (7)
- This is Great! - kurt s 11:28:10 01/28/10 (0)
- RE: Thanks for pointing that out. - john curl 11:25:22 01/28/10 (5)
- RE: Thanks for pointing that out. - Ugly 11:57:31 01/28/10 (4)
- And my answer is... - rick_m 18:35:51 01/27/10 (6)
- RE: And my answer is... - Don Till 11:27:52 02/01/10 (5)
- RE: And my answer is... - rick_m 14:12:16 02/01/10 (4)
- LOL! - Don Till 07:17:29 02/02/10 (0)
- RE: And my answer is... - Ugly 14:34:26 02/01/10 (2)
- RE: And my answer is... - rick_m 17:16:12 02/01/10 (1)
- RE: And my answer is... - Ugly 18:06:39 02/01/10 (0)
- RE: Wires & Scientific Research - kurt s 16:18:58 01/27/10 (0)
- I don't know ... - MikeWI 14:37:29 01/27/10 (0)
- RE: Wires & Scientific Research - Don Till 11:52:46 01/27/10 (13)
- If our measurements fail to find difference we hear, don't we need new measures? - Norm 19:52:25 01/27/10 (12)
- Sure but who says measurements don't note differences when audible differences are heard? - Don Till 08:21:07 01/31/10 (6)
- I guess that I agree with you, but that leads to another question, why doesn't anyone report - Norm 18:43:46 02/04/10 (5)
- RE: I guess that I agree with you, but that leads to another question, why doesn't anyone report - Don Till 07:15:51 02/05/10 (4)
- RE: I guess that I agree with you, but that leads to another question, why doesn't anyone report - rick_m 09:29:32 02/05/10 (3)
- Both of you are coping out. You argue that measurement capture everything & hearing dif. is hot air, BUT - Norm 17:46:54 02/07/10 (2)
- RE: Both of you are coping out. You argue that measurement capture everything & hearing dif. is hot air, BUT - rick_m 15:00:01 02/08/10 (1)
- Sorry, I have reread what you say, and I was wrong. nt - Norm 19:58:32 02/12/10 (0)
- Maybe, but more probably, IMO, we aren't leveraging already attainable data to it's fullest benefit. - Ugly 01:05:42 01/28/10 (4)
- You may be right, but why does someone optimize products? - Norm 06:56:44 01/28/10 (3)
- To eliminate problems they percieve and have skills to address. - Ugly 08:53:01 01/28/10 (2)
- RE: To eliminate problems they percieve and have skills to address. - MikeWI 13:13:26 01/28/10 (1)
- You should read Greg Milner's Perfecting Sound Forever. - Norm 18:50:46 02/04/10 (0)
- Far too rational for the pseudo scientist crowd. nt - Norm 10:47:41 01/27/10 (1)
- More on Measurements - AlbuquerqueAudio 20:22:52 01/27/10 (0)