Propeller Head Plaza

Much said about "audibility" is beliefs rather than facts

66.51.146.3

In Reply to: RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. posted by morricab on June 17, 2008 at 09:53:13

When brand names are hidden and A-B SPL's and L-R Channel Balance are closely matched, those audiophiles who have tested their abilities in the past 30 years have had far different experiences with electronic components than those who believe electronics have easily heard differences somewhat like speakers, although they never attempt to prove they can hear those differences to witnesses.
The right way to test what measurements are audible is to find two electronic components that do sound different to most listeners in blind comparisons, and later compare all available measurements in an attempt to explain why people might hear the differences they described (perhaps no measurement will provide a clue).
Most audiophiles believe in audible differences, and buy stereo equipment based on that belief, but decades of tests have created a mountain of evidence that "no audible difference" is quite common among electronic components with significantly different measurements.
Dr. Geddes is one who believes the results of tests, and uses such inexpensive amplifiers that he makes my amplifiers seem "high end". Watch out whose papers you use to support your beliefs!
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Richard BassNut Greene
"The Floyd R. Turbo of Bingham Farms Michigan"

Edits: 06/17/08

Follow Ups:

Round and around we go, where we stop nobody knows. nt - Norm 18:03:29 06/17/08 (0)
RE: Much said about "audibility" is beliefs rather than facts - morricab 14:59:22 06/17/08 (11)
- Incredible how much you talk about audio and how little you know about audio - Richard BassNut Greene 08:34:10 06/18/08 (10)
  - RE: Incredible how much you talk about audio and how little you know about audio - morricab 16:13:04 06/18/08 (9)
    - Every "point" of yours calmly refuted with one hand tied behind my back (read Monday = avoid ruining weekend) - Richard BassNut Greene 09:13:34 06/20/08 (4)
      - RE: Every "point" of yours calmly refuted with one hand tied behind my back (read Monday = avoid ruining weeke - morricab 02:19:32 06/21/08 (3)
        
        You say: "Sometimes not at first but with time they all (amplifiers) sound different. Same with preamplifiers" - Richard BassNut Greene 08:33:12 06/23/08 (2)
        
        RE: You say: "Sometimes not at first but with time they all (amplifiers) sound different. Same with preamplifiers" - morricab 06:44:54 06/24/08 (0)
        
        RE: You say: "Sometimes not at first but with time they all (amplifiers) sound different. Same with preamplifiers" - morricab 06:41:04 06/24/08 (0)
    - Your silence is deafening, RBNG - morricab 01:59:36 06/20/08 (2)
      - It takes a day for me to recover from reading one of your posts - Richard BassNut Greene 08:27:38 06/20/08 (1)
        
        RE: It takes a day for me to recover from reading one of your posts - morricab 01:51:33 06/21/08 (0)
    - Wow! Bingo! You have done what I have been too lazy to do--having the studies at hand. nt - Norm 08:57:28 06/19/08 (0)
Gee, Richard, maybe those tests are simply not appropriate. - robert young 11:29:55 06/17/08 (109)
- You can and should say the same thing about uncontrolled subjective comparisons - Richard BassNut Greene 08:59:30 06/18/08 (30)
  - The problems with bias in sighted tests are obvious. - robert young 13:20:55 06/18/08 (26)
    - SBT's are useful too - Richard BassNut Greene 14:04:38 06/18/08 (25)
      - You continue to ignore the glaring problem of "T." - robert young 14:17:47 06/18/08 (24)
        
        You remind me of a guy who claims to have a 200 IQ but refuses an IQ test because they make him nervous - Richard BassNut Greene 14:30:16 06/18/08 (23)
        
        You Remind Me Of A Guy Who Makes Up Stories To Support His Beliefs - thetubeguy1954 19:31:48 06/18/08 (21)
        
        You claim exceptional hearing skills and sometimes claim to do tests but you never test your claims - Richard BassNut Greene 08:55:27 06/19/08 (20)
        
        Neither do you - E-Stat 07:25:23 06/20/08 (4)
        
        What are you challenging me to some kind of hearing test using headphones? - Richard BassNut Greene 13:56:47 06/20/08 (3)
        
        Finally you answer - E-Stat 14:18:31 06/20/08 (2)
        
        I gave your brain time to rest, but alas, you're confused, as usual - Richard BassNut Greene 14:57:29 06/20/08 (1)
        
        Simple questions for you - E-Stat 15:08:15 06/20/08 (0)
        
        And You Say The Same BS Over & Over - thetubeguy1954 13:41:22 06/19/08 (14)
        
        Your so-called tests were a joke - Richard BassNut Greene 13:59:46 06/20/08 (0)
        
        The lesson that you and others should learn - bjh 14:08:44 06/19/08 (12)
        
        Extended character attacks NEVER refute points I make in posts - Richard BassNut Greene 14:01:21 06/20/08 (0)
        
        BJH --- I Agree Completely With Your Post - thetubeguy1954 06:42:21 06/20/08 (2)
        
        "we should all choose to simply ignore Richard BassNut Greene, AJinFLA & Pat D" - Richard BassNut Greene 14:06:24 06/20/08 (1)
        
        You were doing so well.... - robert young 16:44:46 06/20/08 (0)
        
        Gosh, you're right!! - robert young 15:12:33 06/19/08 (7)
        
        You forgot to say ... - Richard BassNut Greene 09:25:43 06/20/08 (2)
        
        RE: You forgot to say ... - morricab 02:25:25 06/21/08 (0)
        
        But I don't know that.... - robert young 09:50:33 06/20/08 (0)
        
        I'm sorry Robert but - bjh 17:23:37 06/19/08 (3)
        
        Okey-dokey. - robert young 19:19:20 06/19/08 (2)
        
        I'm starting a petition to bring back Roaring Poser and Teresa ....... & anyone else needed for more fun ? - Richard BassNut Greene 14:16:25 06/20/08 (1)
        
        Thanks for the laugh.... - robert young 15:08:45 06/20/08 (0)
        
        That would be funny, if.... - robert young 14:39:01 06/18/08 (0)
  - OR... you can create a fantasy in your head about 30 years of - bjh 10:41:07 06/18/08 (1)
    - The true fantasyland is "everything sounds different" as no one can EVER demonstrate that skill to witnesses . - Richard BassNut Greene 14:09:05 06/18/08 (0)
  - another logical fallacy #19. nt - Analog Scott 09:14:43 06/18/08 (0)
- An ABX DBT can be calibrated for sensitivity to differences - Analog Scott 15:00:17 06/17/08 (4)
  - Nulls are not meaningless, Mr. Brainiac - Richard BassNut Greene 09:09:30 06/18/08 (3)
    - Nice strawman. never said they were meaningless. - Analog Scott 09:22:58 06/18/08 (2)
      - I assume an "uncalibrated test" is any test whose results don't match your beliefs? - Richard BassNut Greene 14:13:50 06/18/08 (1)
        
        well, it is like you to make a dumb ass assumption - Analog Scott 15:27:11 06/18/08 (0)
- RE: Gee, Richard, maybe those tests are simply not appropriate. - Pat D 14:05:13 06/17/08 (72)
  - RE: Gee, Richard, maybe those tests are simply not appropriate. - Analog Scott 15:05:25 06/17/08 (47)
    - The test is a way to check claims made during sighted uncontrolled comparisons - Richard BassNut Greene 14:22:44 06/18/08 (2)
      - Did you even read my post? - Analog Scott 15:54:59 06/18/08 (1)
        
        You mean your convoluted "logic" where a system is only good enough for a test if you like the test results? - Richard BassNut Greene 09:05:55 06/19/08 (0)
    - RE: Gee, Richard, maybe those tests are simply not appropriate. - Pat D 17:02:25 06/17/08 (43)
      - logical fallacy #19 - Analog Scott 00:06:37 06/18/08 (27)
        
        Logic can be a wonderful thing . . . - Pat D 17:00:07 06/18/08 (26)
        
        "but not misapplied logic. I have not used a tu quoque argument." - Analog Scott 17:23:40 06/18/08 (25)
        
        A comparison is not a tu quoque. - Pat D 02:44:16 06/19/08 (24)
        
        RE: A comparison is not a tu quoque. - morricab 01:54:37 06/20/08 (1)
        
        RE: A comparison is not a tu quoque. - robert young 05:41:30 06/20/08 (0)
        
        Null DBTs are not very interesting - Tony Lauck 20:32:02 06/19/08 (10)
        
        Where are the "null results" in sighted non-SPL matched comparisons? - Richard BassNut Greene 08:23:27 06/25/08 (1)
        
        RE: Where are the "null results" in sighted non-SPL matched comparisons? - Tony Lauck 08:38:44 06/25/08 (0)
        
        Great post! - kerr 05:40:51 06/20/08 (7)
        
        Actually, you're both wrong about this. - Pat D 16:14:57 06/20/08 (6)
        
        RE: Actually, you're both wrong about this. - Tony Lauck 18:10:41 06/20/08 (2)
        
        RE: Actually, you're both wrong about this. - Pat D 20:02:52 06/20/08 (1)
        
        RE: Actually, you're both wrong about this. - Tony Lauck 17:53:18 06/21/08 (0)
        
        " Or didn't you read what jj has said on this?" This is getting pathetic. - robert young 16:28:46 06/20/08 (2)
        
        The Leventhal AES article on this is a must-read - andy_c 17:57:01 06/20/08 (1)
        
        RE: The Leventhal AES article on this is a must-read - Pat D 18:17:55 06/23/08 (0)
        
        Put your arrogance aside for just a moment. - robert young 03:52:25 06/19/08 (10)
        
        No, it is arrogant to ignore the evidence. (nt) - Pat D 18:41:48 06/19/08 (9)
        
        And that is exactly what you have been doing. - robert young 19:16:45 06/19/08 (8)
        
        Yet another self-declared winner. - Pat D 06:09:37 06/21/08 (7)
        
        I didn't realize this was a sporting event. - robert young 07:33:32 06/21/08 (6)
        
        "Game over" is your expression. So now you're taking your marbles and going home? - Pat D 07:56:25 06/21/08 (5)
        
        You don't seem to have understood my position. - robert young 08:01:40 06/21/08 (4)
        
        Your position doesn't concern me, only your arguments. (nt) - Pat D 17:12:33 06/21/08 (3)
        
        That was your biggest cop-out yet. - robert young 17:26:29 06/21/08 (2)
        
        Anyone can take a position. It's the justification that interests me. - Pat D 19:24:20 06/21/08 (1)
        
        I explained why. If you don't like the reasons, that's not going to affect me one way or the other. - robert young 06:19:57 06/22/08 (0)
      - Pat, it isn't whether sighted is better or worse, its about... - robert young 18:42:57 06/17/08 (14)
        
        "Non-calibrated" describes the typical out-of-control sighted audition - Richard BassNut Greene 14:40:41 06/18/08 (3)
        
        Yes, I do dislike sighted tests... - robert young 16:17:18 06/18/08 (2)
        
        "I make no claims of superiority of either the system or my ears." - Richard BassNut Greene 09:19:59 06/19/08 (1)
        
        "Those audiophiles who have tested their ears comparing interconnects would not worry..." - robert young 09:33:35 06/19/08 (0)
        
        No, you still haven't got it. - Pat D 19:21:36 06/17/08 (9)
        
        Yes I do, but I'm convinced you don't. - robert young 13:39:59 06/18/08 (0)
        
        RE: No, you still haven't got it. - bjh 20:30:07 06/17/08 (7)
        
        RE: No, you still haven't got it. - Pat D 17:20:20 06/18/08 (6)
        
        "Richard isn't the only one." You mean those others (like Richard) have dreamt - bjh 19:55:17 06/18/08 (0)
        
        I would say logical fallacy #3 again but... - Analog Scott 17:27:46 06/18/08 (4)
        
        I would say argumentem ad hominem. (nt) - Pat D 17:38:14 06/18/08 (3)
        
        That would be an odd thing to say given there was no argument - Analog Scott 17:44:46 06/18/08 (2)
        
        Nonsense. - Pat D 02:49:35 06/19/08 (1)
        
        You have correctly - E-Stat 10:16:39 06/21/08 (0)
  - Of course calibration is required. - robert young 14:16:48 06/17/08 (23)
    - It depends on the purpose of the audition. - Pat D 17:14:51 06/17/08 (22)
      - Ah yes, another example of Fallacy # 3 - E-Stat 14:03:10 06/18/08 (0)
      - Let's go back to basics. As you often chastise others for not doing. - robert young 18:47:55 06/17/08 (20)
        
        Yes, let's do get back to real life basics. - Pat D 20:03:32 06/17/08 (19)
        
        Yes, let's discuss authority. - robert young 14:05:35 06/18/08 (18)
        
        RE: Yes, let's discuss authority. - Pat D 17:34:02 06/18/08 (17)
        
        You are so far from getting this. - robert young 19:54:54 06/18/08 (16)
        
        Known Flaws In DBTS! - thetubeguy1954 08:39:56 06/19/08 (1)
        
        It seems we have taught you something . . . - Pat D 14:21:15 06/19/08 (0)
        
        You haven't come up with any reasons to doubt accepted scientific protocols. - Pat D 02:54:44 06/19/08 (13)
        
        Yes I have. - robert young 03:45:55 06/19/08 (12)
        
        Your arguments don't support your conclusion. - Pat D 14:40:37 06/19/08 (11)
        
        Sorry, but I do not accept your points. - robert young 15:08:02 06/19/08 (10)
        
        Just for your benefit... - bjh 17:42:49 06/19/08 (9)
        
        But do you benefit? - Pat D 18:02:29 06/19/08 (8)
        
        When I suggested that you research "forced choice," I didn't intend... - robert young 19:24:59 06/19/08 (6)
        
        I gave you the thread--you can search around it all you want. - Pat D 16:04:20 06/20/08 (1)
        
        I'm sad that you clearly can't give this more attention. - robert young 16:37:03 06/20/08 (0)
        
        JJ was just the sort to earn Pat D's adulation... - bjh 20:23:28 06/19/08 (3)
        
        I was around when he took his ball and left. - robert young 03:32:27 06/20/08 (2)
        
        I expect he had other things to do . . . - Pat D 05:57:06 06/21/08 (1)
        
        Though the point is irrelevant, you are right about it. - robert young 06:27:04 06/21/08 (0)
        
        RE: But do you benefit? - bjh 18:32:29 06/19/08 (0)

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