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In Reply to: RE: But he did measure posted by jneutron on January 11, 2008 at 06:44:05
Hello John,I'm sorry but I still disagree with you in general. I previously stated: I never said all measurements are useless. What I said is science cannot sufficiently explain the relationship of measurements to human perception of sound.
To that you replied: Bob, with his science, did indeed explain the relationship between measurement and sound. What is peculiar about his measurement, is that it was of a difference between two amps. He explained (actually proved), that by reducing some metric to a very low level, the amps would sound the same. He therefore correlated a metric to audibility.
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I then amplified my beliefs further by stating: Also IMHO Bob Carver futher supports my statement by NOT taking measurements of the "world-class" tubed monoblocs and interpreting what those measurements meant and then adjusting his amps accordingly!To my second statement you replied: Why do that which was un-neccesary? He knew what was needed to be done to achieve the goal. The challenge was not to explain the intricacies, just duplicate a sound.
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TG1954's response: John while Bob was able to prove ---which is quite incredible in itself--- that by reducing some metric to a very low level, the amps would sound the same. Bob didn't prove he understood what the many different individual measurement's effects were on the sound of an amplifier. Fact is Bob admits he is not sure himself about the audible effects of some of the parameters he juggled to match the transfer-functions of his amp to that of tubed monoblocs. You believe that statement is modesty on his part, but I don't!If we look to Bob's production Transfer Function Modified amps we find Bob wasn't being modest, but rather Bob was being honest! Bob's production TFM amps were NOT noted for being SOTA, which the "world-class" tubed monoblocs were. Bob's production amps weren't even considered to be exceptionally good solid state amps ---my HK Citation 16 was a much more realistic sounding amp by comparison. Although Bob's production TFM amps were a good value for the money.
What we need to determine is why weren't Bob's production amps the equal of the amp he modified in the challenge? I think the answer is obvious, Bob could NOT due what was neccesary to make his production amps the equal of those "world-class" tubed monoblocs. What was neccesary to achieve that goal was to:
1) take measurements.
2) interpret how those individual measurements effected the sound of the amp.
3) correlate how changing those individual measurements would change an amp's sound.
4) make the required adjustments to his amps accordingly to make them sound the same.I think there's an additional reason that I'll discuss later in this post. John please understand that I know what Bob did was incredible feat. My hat is off to the man. It showed as morricab said, a very intimate knowledge of what the actual devices are doing and how to coax or reduce various noises and distortions from them. That's something not every designer can do. In fact it's probably something very few designers could do. But John that's not the equivalent of correlating the individual measurements of an amp with the ability to interprete how they individually effect an amp's sound. If Bob could do that he'd be able to look at ANY amp's measurements, then look at another amp's measurements and adjust them accordingly to make the two amps sound the same!
What Bob did isn't even close to being able to correlate an amp's individual measurements with an amp's sound. This inability on Bob's ---and apparently all other designers--- part is further evidenced when Bob has no reference amplifier to connect and null against. In that circumstance, when Bob has to rely soley on his own ability to correlate measurements with the sound quality of an amp, we find that Bob is only able to produce production amps that are good quality for the money spent. They are NOT exceedingly good solidstate amps. They are NOT not near SOTA solidstate amps. They are simply good for the money spent, like many other solidstate amps are.
Yes John, Bob used measurements. Yes John, Bob displayed the remarkable ability to use a metric to be able to make his amp sound like a "world-class" tubed monobloc another designer created from scratch. Yes John, Bob is a very gifted designer ---as evidenced by his original Carver Amazing Platinum speakers (which at approx $2500pr were IMHO the sonic equal of many speakers $25K & up) or his Sonic Hologram generator. Yet when Bob is left to create amps on his own, he seems unable to create an amp that emulates the sound of SOTA solidstate or tubed amps. So John "IF" Bob really could correlate measurements with sound quality he'd be able to adjust his amps to be the sonic equal of any SOTA solidstate or tubed amp that's out there, so why isn't he? I refuse to believe Bob is honestly making the deliberate choice to produce just "good for the money" solidstate amps "IF" he honestly knows how to produce SOTA solidstate amps by simply adjusting some measurements. So were left with the haunting question of why doesn't Bob do this?
Maybe it's because it cannot be done at the price points of Bob's production amps ---so much for $500 pro-solidstate amps being the sonic equal of SOTA audiophile amps--- or maybe it's because there's a vast difference between nulling the differences between two different amps as opposed to taking the measurements of one amp, interpreting how those individual measurements effect the sound of the original amp tested, correlating how changing the individual measurements of Bob's amp would change it's sound and then making those required adjustments to Bob's amps so they'd now sound the same as the original "reference" SOTA amp. Personally I believe it has to be a bit of both of those two reasons.
Bob Carver is an incredibly gifted designer, with an ability to think outside of the box and a willingness to produce products that are very different than the norm such as the Auto-Correlator noise reduction, Sonic holography, Magnetic Field Coil power amplifiers, Transfer Function Modified amps, Digital Time Lens, Asymmetrical Charge Coupled Stereo Detector ---this allowed a tuner whose FM stereo detector to receive noise-free reception of much weaker than normal signals--- and his outstanding Original Carver Amazing Platinum speakers ---whose OB woofers was so completely different than conventional woofers of the time that Bob had to go to China (IIRC) to convince the manufactuer to make them--- and of course we cannot forget Bob's Sunfire True Subwoofer with it's 2700 watts that powered two 8 inch woofers in an 11 inch cube! But John, I ask you if a man as gifted as Carver cannot correlate measurements with sound ---and I believe it's quite obvious he cannot--- who do you honestly think really can?
Thetubeguy1954
A Rational Subjectivist
Edits: 01/15/08 01/15/08Follow Ups:
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