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In Reply to: RE: A Possible Solution posted by andy19191 on June 06, 2007 at 13:07:34
TG1954: I'd like you to explain what all these other variables you believe exist are.
Andy19191: The variability between drivers, not having speakers in the same place, slow switching, etc... A rational approach would be to measure the changes since this is both more sensitive and more informative about what is changing.
TG1954: Andy I think you're picking at nits now. Most if not all highend speaker manufacturers keep driver variability to a minimum. I doubt many, if any people could tell the difference with any reliabilty between two sets of identical speakers that are broken in or between two sets of identical speakers that are unbroken in, so no I don't believe that's an issue of course it could always be tested if the need be. As far not having speakers in the same place when comparing two sets of identical speakers with one set being broken in & the other set unbroken in, one need simply exchange the positions of the speakers when comparing them. I've heard the difference between broken in & unbroken in speakers and the differences are sufficient enough as to allow the time to exchange postions.
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TG1954: But why would I be misleading? I have nothing to gain in this debate, no one does.
Abdy19191: Hmmm... so people are posting here to dispassionately learn?
TG1954: I don't know Andy do you have hidden agendas? Perhaps you simply like arguing or refuting anything a subjectivist says? I personally come here out of a love of audio and music. I come here to learn. I come here to speak of what I've learned through my experiences via 40 years in this hobby. I come here to speak about tests I've done. When I said why would I be misleading I was refering to the topic of speaker break in. What do I possible stand to again if they do or don't break in? It would certainly be to my advantage as an audiophile/music lover to have my new speakers sound their optimum new out of the box rather than some 50-100hrs later, no? It would also an advantage as a speaker manufactuer/dealer to have their new speakers sound their optimum new out of the box rather than some 50-100hrs later too, no? That's what I meant when I said: "I have nothing to gain in this debate, no one does." Maybe you come here for different more malicious reasons than I do?
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TG1954: Andy what advantage is there for a speaker manufacturer to tell a client in so many words Our speakers won't sound as good as they can for 100 hrs or so?
Andy19191: It is an interesting question and I do not have a wholly satisfactory answer. I made a brief effort to find out from people that work with methods for measuring speaker driver parameters but without success. The only reasonable data I found after a very brief google was 10 seconds to effectively break in the suspension which is consistent with my prior knowledge but it is difficult to find reliable information among the audiophile nonsense. A possibility exists that new materials for some drivers may have an influence in this respect but I have no evidence to support it.
TG1954: Andy you readily admit that you don't have a wholly satisfactory answer and you've only made a a brief effort to find out from people that work with methods for measuring speaker driver parameters but without success. Yet you chalk up speaker break to being audiophile nonsense? Your brief effort found something that said it takes only 10 seconds to effectively break in the suspension and that's the only reasonable data you found? Why is that reasonable because it's consistent with your prior beliefs? I've already given you direct quotes from speaker manufacture's with prices ranging from a minimum of $4K to $12K which certainly aren't cheap speakers by anyone's definition. I guess this is all more audiophile nonsense because it doesn't agree with your previous beliefs even though you cannot find any evidence to dispute their claims?
I've also noticed you've completely ignored my suggested proposal at how to investigate and examine this phenomenon further. I further suggest this test be done with the speakers hidden*
1) Take two identical sets of new unbroken-in speakers and play one song on both to see if they sound the same to a group of people who:
a) listen to the speakers individually.
b) record whether the speakers sound the same or not individually.
c) leave individually.
2) If the consensus is the two identical sets of new unbroken-in speakers do sound the same:
a) disconnect one set.
b) play the other set for 50-100hrs.
c) leave the disconnected pair next to the pair breaking in (that way they're both exposed to the same affects of heat, humidity, sunlight etc)
3) After 50-100hrs reconnect the one set that wasn't broken in, have the original group of people return and have them:
a) listen to both sets of speakers using the same song used in step #1 individually.
c) record whether the speakers sound the same or not individually.
d) leave individually.
4) If the two sets of identical speakers now sound different to these same people that previously thought these speakers sounded the same, it would make sense that the differences heard would be due to the one pair being broken in for 50-100hrs. For in this case the ONLY thing that has changed between the two sets of speakers is one pair was played for 50-100hrs. Other than that both sets have been exposed to the same affects of heat, humidity, sunlight etc.
If that isn't a satisfactory test for you than that we'll just have to agree to disagree. It's the best this non-scientist can do. But I'm definitely not going to continue debating this topic with someone who cannot find any proof to dispute what the speaker manufacturers say and what I hear, simply because it doesn't conform with your previous beliefs, thus it must be audiophile nonsense. Those actions are your part are hardly following the scientific approach you espouse and hold so dearly...
* the reason I suggest hiding the speakers is to prevent any biases objectivists are always complaining about from interfering with the tests. This is one time where I'll agree that seeing two identical sets of speakers might bias the people in the test from believing there could possibly be a difference in how two identical sets of speakers sound. Especially if they are objectivists!
Thetubeguy1954
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