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In Reply to: RE: you're taking this far too seriously posted by mls-stl on June 05, 2007 at 21:01:23
mls-stl,You objectivist types are really something. You guys have a BS answer for everything. Most of you claim we never said all wires sound the same, yet you don't believe subjectivists can really hear differences in wires. Now I'm finding when I reply in what I consider to be the same type of obnoxious, sarcastic style you're using. I'm told I have an anger problem. Then when I try to strictly discuss the topic at hand sans any sarcasm I'm told I'm too sensitive! You guys are really something. You all want it both ways, have your cake and eat it too! Twisting and turning everything said to fit your POV. GEEESSSHHHH.
I stated that speaker break in IS verifiable and measureable via scientific methods, to which you claim "Yet I haven't seen this verification. I've only seen personal stories presented so far." So just because YOU haven't seen the evidence that means it doesn't exist? Talk with some speaker manufacturers, they'll tell you and perhaps even provide you with some measurements. Pjay said he's done some measurements on this issue.
What about these quotes from various speaker manufacturers?
THIEL Break-In - The CS3.7s, like most speakers, require a period of playing before they perform optimally. The time required depends on how loudly the speakers are played; more time is required if played softly, less if played loudly. At least 50 hours at moderately loud levels are required before the speaker is performing near optimum. You should notice even more improvement after 100 hours of playing.
MARTIN-LOGAN Break-In - When you first begin to play your Summit speakers, they will sound a bit bass shy. This is due to the high quality, long-life components used in our woofer. Our custom made, butyl surround woofer requires approximately 72 hours of break-in at 90 dB (moderate listening levels) before any critical listening. The break-in requirements of the crossover components (and, to a lesser degree, the stator) are equivalent.
DYNAUDIO Break-In - The moving parts of a newly manufactured Confidence loudspeaker have been acoustically checked after production, but nevertheless are not as flexible as they need to be for optimum results to be realized. The higher the quality of any driver system, the more demanding the loudspeaker will be regarding time for running-in the system. A newly unpacked Dynaudio loudspeaker therefore requires several weeks running/playing to reach its optimum performance capability. After that period, a couple of minutes before every listening session will be helpful to ‘warm up’ the loudspeakers.
ENERGY Break-In - It is VITAL that your new Veritas i™ Series speakers be allowed to break In properly before you perform any precise set up procedures, system adjustments, and before you play them at higher volume levels. The best method of performing the break in is to play a full range musical passage at a moderate level as long as possible. Utilizing the repeat function on your CD or DVD player can assist greatly. Optimum sound will not be achieved until approximately 100 hours of playing time. After break-in, the volume level can be increased. Do not play the speakers at higher levels until the break in process has been completed. The transducers need to "loosen up", and until this occurs, damage can result to the transducers.
What advantage is there for a speaker manufacturer to tell a client in so many words Our speakers won't sound as good as they can for 100 hrs or so? If this was an audiophile myth as objectivists would have us believe wouldn't it be a marketing advantage for a speaker manufacturer to proclaim: Unlike many other speakers our ABC speakers sound great right out of the box with no break-in period required?
mls-stl you're trying to claim that speaker manufacturers makes these statements because they want consumers to become comfortable with the sound of their speakers. But that's idea is full of holes. First any intelligent audiophile bought the speakers is because they prefered what they heard at the audio salon or friends house to their speakers at home already! Second you seem to believe an audiophiles expectation of improvement over a few weeks (a form of "expectation bias") can help that person become emotionally invested in the sound of the product and reduce the chance of buyer's remorse. Again I say that's full of holes because it's just as easy to direct an audiophiles expectation bias to believe the ABC speakers sound great right out of the box with no break-in period required. Thus they'll become emotionally invested in the sound of the product immediately and reduce the chance of buyer's remorse. See you "expectation bias" works both ways!
I find this statement of yours: "Encouraging buyers to think in terms of burn-in is an effective way of helping a buyer to transition to a new set of speakers that probably don't sound much like their old pair." To be the most ludicrous proposition of anything you've said. We're talking about an audiophile who's quite familiar with how his speakers sound. Then hearing another different speaker in an audio salon or friend's home he prefered how they sounded. If this person has an ounce of intelligence like 99.9999% of the subjectivists I know, he'll either bring his speakers to the audio salon or friend's home to directly compare them with the speakers he's thinking of buying (after all even objectivists know different electronics & different rooms will affect a speaker's sound) or he'll ask for an in-home audtion of the new speakers.
So why would he need a time to transition to a new set of speakers that probably doesn't sound much like his old pair when he already knows exactly how they sound different, and chose to purchase the new different pair, hmmmm??? A much more likely & reasonable reason would be that the new unbroken-in speakers he'll purchase won't sound the same in his home as the demo pair did in the audio salon where he first heard them or in his home if he did an in-home audition. That makes a lot more sense than anything you've suggested so far. It also completely supports what speaker manufacturers say and what I've heard.
Of course I suppose there's the possibilty that this person who bought the new different speakers was an objectivist who only listened at the audio salon, liked what he heard while reading the speaker's specs and just bought them without ever directly comparing them against his speakers in the audio salon or his home. Perhaps for someone like that your arguements would make sense. I guess I just assumed the person buying the speakers would act intelligently like a subjectivist would and compare the new speakers against his own speakers BEFORE buying them. I keep forgeting that objectivists do things differently. So perhaps with an objectivist buyers remorse could occur, but still that doesn't mean the speakers aren't breaking in---- they are! Besides objectivists are always telling us audiophiles hear what they're told to hear, no? So if a person read a statement in their ABC speaker manuel that said the speakers will sound great out of the box, they should hear the speakers sound great out of the box, no? After all that's what their "expectation bias" will be at that point.
Thetubeguy1954
Edits: 06/06/07 06/06/07Follow Ups:
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