In Reply to: my conclusions are what they are, you are not showing any contrary evidence posted by Thorsten on October 18, 2014 at 02:19:38:
The entire discussion of sound quality of streamers results from the poor way that DACs are evaluated by audiophiles and reviewers in their listening tests (and measurements). The assumption behind these tests is that the computer, streamer, or digital transport contributes to the sound quality (or phrased negatively, if not "audio grade" subtracts from sound quality). The issue isn't whether or not this happens. The issue is where the credit or demerit goes. The credit or demerit should always go to the DAC, not the streamer. It should not be necessary to listen to any digital transport, just verify that it is putting out a signal that is within the specifications for the output interconnect (e.g. USB), that is no bit errors at the DAC end of the digital interconnect.
While it is annoying and distatasteful to be told, "You have not heard XYZ, therefore you have no business commenting on it" or, "You haven't heard XYZ, therefore you are not aware of the state of the art" with many types of components these are sometimes appropriate comments. In the case of digital sources such as "streamers" being discussed in this thread, such comments are never appropriate. If a digital source imposes any character on the sound the listener hears (or measures) it is an indictment of the DAC that allowed this to matter, not the source.
I am interested in "bad sounding" digital sources, because they can be uniquely valuable as a way of exposing poor quality DACs. I would expect DAC designers and reviewers to have an array of "bad sounding" digital transports in their arsenal of reference components. A preliminary review of a DAC should be conducted with the entire arsenal of these sources and the final review conducted with the particular source or sources that make the DAC under test sound (or measure) as poorly as possible. No DAC should be rated above Mid-Fi unless its sound quality is completely stable as digital sources are changed. The present approach of testing high-end DACs with high end transports is fundamentally bogus and accounts for the lack of progress during the 20 years since two box digital sources first hit the market.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
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Follow Ups
- The problem is the method used to evaluate DACs and digital sources - Tony Lauck 08:34:26 10/18/14 (76)
- right:VRDS NEO sounds the same as a Plextor!! LOL - Sordidman 17:21:22 10/19/14 (27)
- Plextor!! LOL - fmak 22:09:29 10/19/14 (1)
- RE: Plextor!! LOL - Tony Lauck 18:29:42 10/20/14 (0)
- RE: right:VRDS NEO sounds the same as a Plextor!! LOL - Tony Lauck 18:42:49 10/19/14 (24)
- People with experience hear these products under a - Sordidman 09:28:19 10/20/14 (4)
- RE: People with experience hear these products under a - Tony Lauck 10:41:51 10/20/14 (3)
- Appreciate your comments: But they are out of scope - Sordidman 11:29:24 10/20/14 (2)
- RE: Appreciate your comments: But they are out of scope - Tony Lauck 11:42:02 10/20/14 (1)
- RE: Appreciate your comments: But they are out of scope - Sprezza Tura 12:10:39 10/20/14 (0)
- DACs using SPDIF are broken by design - fmak 22:07:10 10/19/14 (14)
- RE: DACs using SPDIF are broken by design - Tony Lauck 09:22:54 10/20/14 (13)
- Why expect heroic DAC engineering to overcome a flawed interface? - Dave_K 08:40:24 10/21/14 (3)
- RE: Why expect heroic DAC engineering to overcome a flawed interface? - fmak 22:03:52 10/21/14 (1)
- Hey Fred - Sordidman 14:50:55 10/22/14 (0)
- RE: Why expect heroic DAC engineering to overcome a flawed interface? - Tony Lauck 12:36:14 10/21/14 (0)
- RE: DACs using SPDIF are broken by design - Bob_C 23:11:31 10/20/14 (7)
- RE: DACs using SPDIF are broken by design - fmak 03:34:46 10/21/14 (6)
- RE: DACs using SPDIF are broken by design - Sprezza Tura 07:28:53 10/21/14 (0)
- RE: DACs using SPDIF are broken by design - Tony Lauck 06:54:48 10/21/14 (4)
- RE: DACs using SPDIF are broken by design - Sprezza Tura 07:32:44 10/21/14 (2)
- RE: DACs using SPDIF are broken by design - Tony Lauck 07:40:15 10/21/14 (1)
- RE: DACs using SPDIF are broken by design - Sprezza Tura 07:43:17 10/21/14 (0)
- RE: DACs using SPDIF are broken by design - fmak 07:25:34 10/21/14 (0)
- WaveIO = e99 + post + wait - fmak 21:59:10 10/20/14 (0)
- RE: right:VRDS NEO sounds the same as a Plextor!! LOL - Sprezza Tura 19:15:53 10/19/14 (3)
- RE: right:VRDS NEO sounds the same as a Plextor!! LOL - Tony Lauck 20:28:42 10/19/14 (2)
- RE: right:VRDS NEO sounds the same as a Plextor!! LOL - Sprezza Tura 20:41:23 10/19/14 (1)
- RE: right:VRDS NEO sounds the same as a Plextor!! LOL - fmak 22:11:26 10/19/14 (0)
- RE: The problem is the method used to evaluate DACs and digital sources - Thorsten 11:45:32 10/18/14 (40)
- In my own house I use LED Lamps - fmak 22:57:29 10/20/14 (4)
- RE: In my own house I use LED Lamps - Thorsten 07:23:46 10/21/14 (3)
- RE: In my own house I use LED Lamps - fmak 22:07:23 10/21/14 (2)
- RE: In my own house I use LED Lamps - Thorsten 03:13:22 10/22/14 (1)
- Not worth wasting my digits in response - fmak 04:05:06 10/22/14 (0)
- RE: The problem is the method used to evaluate DACs and digital sources - Tony Lauck 13:51:07 10/18/14 (34)
- But you would never know, - so why guess? - Sordidman 09:38:32 10/20/14 (30)
- RE: But you would never know, - so why guess? - Bob_C 23:21:50 10/20/14 (0)
- RE: But you would never know, - so why guess? - Tony Lauck 10:09:28 10/20/14 (28)
- Because some transports sound better than others - Sordidman 11:45:21 10/20/14 (27)
- RE: Because some transports sound better than others - Tony Lauck 12:12:52 10/20/14 (17)
- your assumption is erroneous: born out by experience - Sordidman 14:44:51 10/20/14 (16)
- RE: your assumption is erroneous: born out by experience - Tony Lauck 17:45:37 10/20/14 (15)
- Nope: less read errors due to less disc wobble -t - Sordidman 20:11:02 10/20/14 (11)
- RE: Nope: less read errors due to less disc wobble -t - Tony Lauck 20:50:03 10/20/14 (10)
- Nope: still errors, & less with VRDS wi live playback - Sordidman 21:39:16 10/20/14 (9)
- RE: Nope: still errors, & less with VRDS wi live playback - Tony Lauck 07:29:35 10/21/14 (8)
- You don't use listen tests to determine data errors - Sordidman 10:00:01 10/21/14 (7)
- RE: You don't use listen tests to determine data errors - Tony Lauck 12:10:29 10/23/14 (5)
- RE: You don't use listen tests to determine data errors - Sprezza Tura 12:56:26 10/23/14 (4)
- RE: You don't use listen tests to determine data errors - Tony Lauck 14:58:59 10/23/14 (3)
- RE: You don't use listen tests to determine data errors - Sprezza Tura 17:10:17 10/23/14 (2)
- RE: You don't use listen tests to determine data errors - Tony Lauck 19:41:00 10/23/14 (1)
- RE: You don't use listen tests to determine data errors - Sprezza Tura 07:49:12 10/24/14 (0)
- I feel sorry for TL - fmak 05:58:24 10/23/14 (0)
- RE: your assumption is erroneous: born out by experience - Sprezza Tura 18:05:18 10/20/14 (2)
- RE: your assumption is erroneous: born out by experience - Tony Lauck 18:53:49 10/20/14 (1)
- RE: your assumption is erroneous: born out by experience - Sprezza Tura 19:28:15 10/20/14 (0)
- RE: Because some transports sound better than others - Sprezza Tura 12:07:01 10/20/14 (8)
- RE: Because some transports sound better than others - Sordidman 15:05:57 10/20/14 (7)
- RE: Because some transports sound better than others - Sprezza Tura 15:47:11 10/20/14 (6)
- RE: Because some transports sound better than others - Tony Lauck 19:06:48 10/20/14 (5)
- RE: Because some transports sound better than others - Sprezza Tura 19:25:57 10/20/14 (4)
- RE: Because some transports sound better than others - Bob_C 23:30:56 10/20/14 (3)
- RE: Because some transports sound better than others - Sprezza Tura 07:30:41 10/21/14 (2)
- RE: Because some transports sound better than others - Bob_C 08:49:28 10/21/14 (1)
- RE: Because some transports sound better than others - Sprezza Tura 09:01:32 10/21/14 (0)
- RE: The problem is the method used to evaluate DACs and digital sources - rick_m 09:15:12 10/19/14 (2)
- I agree - fmak 23:18:50 10/19/14 (1)
- As you have so rightly, and repeatedly, pointed out - Sordidman 09:46:52 10/20/14 (0)
- RE: The problem is the method used to evaluate DACs and digital sources - Sprezza Tura 08:58:35 10/18/14 (6)
- Some inmates do not - fmak 23:20:39 10/19/14 (0)
- RE: The problem is the method used to evaluate DACs and digital sources - Tony Lauck 10:46:45 10/18/14 (4)
- RE: The problem is the method used to evaluate DACs and digital sources - Sprezza Tura 11:08:27 10/18/14 (3)
- Audio Note - fmak 23:23:03 10/19/14 (2)
- RE: Audio Note - Bob_C 23:37:13 10/20/14 (1)
- Many people do to some degree... - fmak 03:40:26 10/21/14 (0)