In Reply to: Let me try again. posted by Presto on September 12, 2008 at 16:12:20:
I consider myself a skeptic. I try many things and most do not make it to my list of gotta haves. However if I do hear something then I like to explore that particular tweak further.
Some tweaks claims to work on the listener: i.e. influencing or shaping their mindset or perceptive ability. Most seems to assume that it is working on the component or the sound itself. As you point out, it may be inconsequential as to the working mechanism, so long as it works for you.
However, I find it interesting and illuminating to research and experiment with the causality. For one, as mentioned by Rick, it provides a better understanding of the mechanisms involved. Second in attempting to create a model for the workings, it can provide for better utilization of that tweak or even provide for better functionality of it. Thirdly, I firmly am of the opinion that an open and honest discussion of tweaks can serve the entire audio community by providing information to further the entire field.
Ultimately any tweak results in a change in perception by the listener. That is simply the nature of hearing. Some cases may simply be the drawing of attention to a particular aspect of music. Much like learning to ride a bicycle, one can not learn such a skill by reading a book.: you must actually get on a bike to learn. Once learned it is a skill that lasts pretty much a lifetime.
Listening is a similar sort of skill. It takes years of critical listening to acquire a certain sensitivity. If you listen to live music, not only do you develop this skill but you also need to hear multiple things simultaneously and immediately since music is a very transitory thing. In recorded music we are blessed with "instant replays", so to speak, which can make things easier.
While the mind is impressionable, I prefer to believe that one can attain a state of being where one can be truly objective (perhaps with much practice!). If you believe this is not true, then anything involved with the senses will fall into the same problem. You may need instrumentation to verify, but that is part and parcel a part of the issue of perception. In this, I am reminded of certain optical illusions where things may seem larger or smaller depending on the juxtaposition of them in relation to the other. While the neurons and synapses in the mind can be fooled, we have been able to create a system to measure and quantify certain issues.
The same thing can be applied to all audio tweaks. However, many advance theories which may be rather contrary to known laws of physics, and others may provide hypothesis which run counter to some proponents. Many prefer thought experiments looking at those very "explanations" and determine without actual experimentation whether that tweak is viable or not. Maybe that's a part of human nature, as witness Galileo and his gravity experiments.
I am sure if we limited responses on AA to those who have only actually tried a tweak to comment about them, the response would be significantly less. However, I find that there is a segment of the community which relishes the unknown and sometime occult, often ignoring good old basic physics and science because it can be rather mundane. Maybe the threat of math in quantifying and measuring may be bringing back nightmares of torturous hours in a boring class. Maybe the idea of something mystical and almost magical appeals more strongly in bypassing those boring pages of numbers. Actually, I find it an attraction myself, but Chi and Zen become biofeedback in West: very mundane and borrrring...!).
In accepting these segments, I prefer to put a more conventional, if boring, twist to many tweaks. My only rationale is that it is more useful in the application of such tweaks. Being more useful, it allows me greater speed and efficiency in affecting a change that I want. That would be a primary reason for searching for an explanation: it gives the user better control, and more control over the changes being created.
Understanding does not come overnight, however, For certain tweaks, I have spent literally decades of experimenting. I can not see forcing another person to go through what I had been doing. Few would want to, and fewer would have the patience (or insanity, as you may prefer).
Case in point: the use of woods in tuning audio components. My interest was piqued by the introduction of the Shun Mook devices, where they claimed the secret was antique pieces of African blackwood (m'pingo wood). Now as a former Clarinet player I know that African Blackwood is relatively new in the western world and used for the making of oboes and clarinets. Locating a source for the wood was difficult as there is only one distributor in the US as far as I know. I started with a Fine Woodworking magazine and starting from the East coast worked my way west calling every exotic wood distributor listed (of course, the distributor happened to be in Portland !) Having obtained samples I proceeded to experiment and determined the wood had something to do with the sound-+ but there was much more to the disc. Using dental x-rays I had the disc checked out and found there was something inside, and cutting a disc open I found a little faceted crystal. This led to the crystal experiments, covered over in the tweaks asylum.
But Gilmor Woods also has an interesting sample kit of 40 of their most popular hardwoods. Using pieces of them as reflectors in my room produced interesting variations in sound. This led to a side track into experimentation with room treatments. A lot of reading went into this (actually more searching, as there is little literature on the subject). I am lucky being a dealer as I had a chance to talk to many other fellow tweakers (manufacturers) at various CES, people like Cardas (myrtle wood), Mapleshade ( maple), and Van Evers (wood block tuning kits). Everyone had their own ideas, but, interestingly, I found the best ideas to come from musical instrument manufacturers. They had already done the bulk of the research, and one need only to talk to a maker of guitars to find out what woods have certain effects on the tone of the instrument. There is a direct correlation between an instrument and a the audio world. And hint, the soundboard of a piano, the acoustic instrument with the largest frequency response, is spruce.
All this took over a decade of experimenting and it is still ongoing.
Stu
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Follow Ups
- You ask an interesting question....( longwinded, caution) - unclestu52 13:09:52 09/13/08 (40)
- I didn't know about your experiments with wood. - Paul_A 10:00:52 09/14/08 (4)
- RE: experiments with wood.(long) - unclestu52 20:32:06 09/14/08 (3)
- RE: experiments with wood.(long) - Paul_A 03:27:36 09/15/08 (2)
- hate to bring this on you - unclestu52 11:50:36 09/16/08 (1)
- tone woods - bartc 18:32:34 10/06/08 (0)
- RE: "For certain tweaks, I have spent literally decades of experimenting." - geoffkait 07:21:18 09/14/08 (34)
- Then what's the crystal doing inside the Shunmook disc? - hotbird 22:40:31 10/23/08 (1)
- Should we call for a vote? nt - geoffkait 07:03:01 10/27/08 (0)
- "ordinary physics" - dave c 14:33:26 09/20/08 (1)
- RE: "ordinary physics" - geoffkait 12:13:14 09/21/08 (0)
- I too find "appeal to authority" arguments generally unsatisfactory. - rick_m 11:07:53 09/14/08 (29)
- having an example of the CLC - unclestu52 22:27:03 09/14/08 (18)
- RE: having an example of the CLC - May Belt 10:24:24 09/15/08 (1)
- As a matter of fact - unclestu52 12:33:12 09/15/08 (0)
- RE: having an example of the CLC - rick_m 08:27:46 09/15/08 (8)
- RE: having an example of the CLC - unclestu52 11:47:21 09/15/08 (7)
- addendum - unclestu52 15:47:03 09/28/08 (0)
- RE: "... the stopping of the action and restarting at at a different time interval seems to be the key." - geoffkait 07:08:02 09/16/08 (5)
- Although I dislike replying to your comments - unclestu52 11:27:40 09/16/08 (4)
- RE: Artificial atoms (ooops, I almost forgot) - geoffkait 16:20:48 09/16/08 (2)
- So according to your post above - unclestu52 21:44:50 09/16/08 (1)
- Good catch! - geoffkait 03:20:23 09/17/08 (0)
- Did you just wake up or something? - geoffkait 13:08:03 09/16/08 (0)
- RE: "You can draw your own conclusions from a such an examination and experimentation." - geoffkait 03:41:08 09/15/08 (6)
- Does the real mechanism appear on one of your lists? - Tony Lauck 07:10:05 09/21/08 (5)
- RE: Does the real mechanism appear on one of your lists? - geoffkait 10:19:44 09/21/08 (4)
- RE: Does the real mechanism appear on one of your lists? - Tony Lauck 10:28:32 09/21/08 (3)
- RE: "Unless you know, how can you know that someone else doesn't know?" - geoffkait 10:48:08 09/21/08 (2)
- RE: "Unless you know, how can you know that someone else doesn't know?" - Tony Lauck 10:51:50 09/21/08 (1)
- RE: "Unless you know, how can you know that someone else doesn't know?" - geoffkait 16:53:50 09/21/08 (0)
- RE: "I have it on the best authority!" - geoffkait 11:44:15 09/14/08 (9)
- RE: "I have it on the best authority!" - rick_m 14:23:04 09/14/08 (8)
- RE: "I'm willing to believe that your product doesn't work for the reasons that you have stated." - geoffkait 04:14:53 09/15/08 (7)
- RE: "A more reasonable approach..." - rick_m 07:30:34 09/15/08 (6)
- RE: The most reasonable approach in my opinion is to merely ask the designer, but that has proven fruitless." - geoffkait 09:36:38 09/15/08 (5)
- Mr. Snippy??? - rick_m 11:25:42 09/15/08 (4)
- RE: "You win the Beltist bet." Surprise, surprise, the troll caves - geoffkait 12:18:03 09/15/08 (3)
- RE: "Untouched system". - rick_m 13:06:51 09/15/08 (2)
- RE: "I'm convinced one of the factors which has helped happiness to abound here is interconnects." - geoffkait 17:20:44 09/15/08 (1)
- Thank you. -nt - rick_m 17:28:08 09/15/08 (0)