What about "threshold of audibility" can't you understand? The ear CAN'T pick ANYTHING out that's ( T.A. - kuribo

Follow Ups Full Thread

Topic - surrogates - fstein 20:40:27 11/10/15 (229)

RE: surrogates - MarkJohns 14:39:42 11/17/15 (0)

RE: surrogates - mlee 08:52:29 11/15/15 (2)

RE: surrogates - fstein 10:06:43 11/17/15 (0)

That's a false dichotomy - Dave_K 08:27:11 11/17/15 (0)

And... - Ivan303 20:45:15 11/13/15 (36)

RE: And... - fstein 09:21:18 11/14/15 (35)

RE: And... - MarkJohns 14:32:47 11/14/15 (25)

RE: And... - John Atkinson 10:57:55 11/15/15 (23)

RE: And... - MarkJohns 12:38:26 11/15/15 (22)

RE: And... - John Atkinson 12:54:33 11/15/15 (21)

RE: And... - Dave_K 08:58:21 11/16/15 (0)

No doubt with more than one "listener", you will have opinions on both sides... - kuribo 05:59:11 11/16/15 (0)

And this brings up the question, JA - morricab 01:43:46 11/16/15 (0)

RE: And... - MarkJohns 13:17:28 11/15/15 (17)

RE: And... - E-Stat 12:13:18 11/16/15 (0)

RE: And... - morricab 01:51:22 11/16/15 (10)

RE: And... - MarkJohns 08:28:25 11/16/15 (9)

There are a number of misconceptions here - Ralph 10:52:53 11/16/15 (8)

RE: There are a number of misconceptions here - MarkJohns 18:53:02 11/16/15 (7)

FWIW JA and I often do not agree. - Ralph 20:07:43 11/16/15 (6)

RE: FWIW JA and I often do not agree. - MarkJohns 04:58:56 11/17/15 (1)

I'll post for you my position on feedback as I did for A Wayne. - Ralph 09:00:49 11/17/15 (0)

RE: FWIW JA and I often do not agree. - A.Wayne 20:42:11 11/16/15 (3)

tricky. - Ralph 08:35:46 11/17/15 (2)

RE: tricky. - A.Wayne 05:48:31 11/18/15 (1)

? - Ralph 09:06:23 11/18/15 (0)

RE: And... - mkuller 20:19:48 11/15/15 (4)

RE: And... - A.Wayne 20:46:45 11/15/15 (3)

You guys? - mkuller 21:40:01 11/15/15 (2)

RE: You guys? - A.Wayne 09:21:22 11/16/15 (1)

Poison... - mkuller 10:27:33 11/16/15 (0)

RE: And... - Tony Lauck 18:35:46 11/14/15 (0)

RE: And... - John Atkinson 12:22:33 11/14/15 (7)

I don't think you are right about this John. - Ralph 14:03:27 11/14/15 (5)

+1... - Ivan303 08:46:34 11/15/15 (0)

RE: I don't think you are right about this John. - A.Wayne 14:31:12 11/14/15 (3)

I really don't know how a person would go about that. - Ralph 08:37:13 11/16/15 (0)

RE: I don't think you are right about this John. - morricab 02:25:50 11/16/15 (0)

RE: I don't think you are right about this John. - MarkJohns 15:06:13 11/14/15 (0)

And that is all you can realistically ask for....nt - kuribo 12:58:19 11/14/15 (0)

RE: Stereophile subjective and Objective Reviews - A.Wayne 10:01:59 11/14/15 (0)

RE: surrogates - Inmate51 10:06:16 11/12/15 (5)

RE: surrogates - fstein 12:13:05 11/13/15 (0)

RE: surrogates - fstein 13:35:21 11/12/15 (3)

Excellent... - mkuller 14:25:46 11/13/15 (2)

Great parallel - E-Stat 06:01:36 11/14/15 (0)

Bingo! - Ivan303 20:47:33 11/13/15 (0)

Measurements and Hearing - Inmate51 09:20:04 11/12/15 (5)

RE: Measurements and Hearing - tomservo 17:21:42 11/12/15 (0)

+1 on that. - Ralph 12:38:46 11/12/15 (3)

RE: +1 on that. - E-Stat 17:26:03 11/12/15 (1)

RE: +1 on that. - A.Wayne 17:50:09 11/12/15 (0)

RE: +1 on that. - Inmate51 14:49:47 11/12/15 (0)

Would you .... - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 13:54:25 11/11/15 (124)

Here is the problem with this analogy. - Ralph 13:57:20 11/12/15 (112)

RE: Here is the problem with this analogy. - fstein 13:59:31 11/13/15 (49)

Let us know what the metric is for "good sound"....nt - kuribo 14:08:46 11/13/15 (48)

Lack of the 7th harmonic is a good place to start. - Ralph 14:41:17 11/13/15 (47)

Lots of amps, ss and class d alike, have inaudible 7th harmonic distortion- some like them, some don't..nt - kuribo 14:45:31 11/13/15 (46)

Don't know of one where its 'inaudible' - Ralph 15:40:03 11/13/15 (45)

Human hearing does not have infinite sensitivity....There is indeed a measureable level when our ears cease - kuribo 17:34:23 11/13/15 (44)

That really isn't how it works. - Ralph 17:59:21 11/13/15 (43)

I'ld love to see a source for that -140dB claim.... - kuribo 19:17:28 11/13/15 (42)

You really don't seem to get the point and have been quite consistant in that regard for months now. - Ralph 13:51:26 11/14/15 (31)

I get the point just fine...You can't seem to grasp the fact that there exists a threshold of audibility - kuribo 14:21:26 11/14/15 (30)

Actually I do get that but when it comes to higher ordered harmonics - Ralph 08:29:39 11/16/15 (27)

What about "threshold of audibility" can't you understand? The ear CAN'T pick ANYTHING out that's ( T.A. - kuribo 13:03:14 11/16/15 (26)

That is actually a different topic and phenomena and I have no problem with it. - Ralph 13:25:17 11/16/15 (25)

Different? How so? You said 7th harmonic matters....I said not if it's inaudible... - kuribo 13:46:11 11/16/15 (23)

The point is that the 7th is rarely inaudible. - Ralph 14:15:27 11/16/15 (15)

RE: The point ? When Kuribo weighs in - A.Wayne 15:10:19 11/16/15 (12)

RE: Hey how about a Shoot out ................ - A.Wayne 15:11:31 11/16/15 (11)

He doesn't care how they SOUND...(nt) - mkuller 16:33:40 11/16/15 (1)

How wrong you are...FYI: I don't care how YOU think they sound....nt - kuribo 18:03:34 11/16/15 (0)

Not interested in subjective opinions....but thanks for the offer...nt - kuribo 15:13:56 11/16/15 (8)

That's odd- do you only play sine waves when you are at home? nt - Ralph 20:17:56 11/16/15 (3)

Really? Is that your best shot? nt - kuribo 20:34:16 11/16/15 (2)

kuribo and Ralph: enough is enough - The Bored 09:28:31 11/17/15 (0)

No- just a statement of fact. You have to use your ears to hear. nt - Ralph 08:31:25 11/17/15 (0)

RE: Not interested in subjective opinions....but thanks for the offer...nt - A.Wayne 15:17:07 11/16/15 (3)

No, we sit around and laugh at all those poo-pooing class d......nt - kuribo 15:26:32 11/16/15 (2)

Awful lot of laughs for you... - mkuller 16:35:07 11/16/15 (1)

Get back to me when you have something of substance to add to the discussion...nt - kuribo 18:04:37 11/16/15 (0)

There, you said it- if you can't hear it, it doesn't matter.... - kuribo 14:50:38 11/16/15 (1)

Cripes - Ralph 20:14:08 11/16/15 (0)

Like Curl says in his article... - mkuller 14:15:04 11/16/15 (6)

He shouldn't have to because most intelligent people understand implicitly - kuribo 14:42:15 11/16/15 (5)

Then it's obvious... - mkuller 14:47:23 11/16/15 (4)

Inaudible is inaudible. Do you have some data to share which shows otherwise? Please share....nt - kuribo 14:53:01 11/16/15 (3)

I did. Read John Curl's article. nt - Ralph 20:19:17 11/16/15 (2)

Read Bruno Putseys' paper on the use of negative feedback. Read the measurements of ncore... - kuribo 20:39:28 11/16/15 (1)

You really don't know how this works do you. - Ralph 08:33:02 11/17/15 (0)

Wow - E-Stat 13:44:54 11/16/15 (0)

RE: I get the point just fine...You can't seem to grasp the fact that there exists a threshold of audibility - Tony Lauck 18:46:19 11/14/15 (1)

Do you have any test data on the ncore amps which shows audible harmonic distortion with complex signal input? - kuribo 05:47:44 11/15/15 (0)

Me too - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 23:41:07 11/13/15 (9)

Most of what I have read limits single tone audibility to around -80dB max... - kuribo 08:18:04 11/14/15 (1)

RE: Most of what I have read limits single tone audibility to around -80dB max... - Dave_K 10:17:08 11/14/15 (0)

RE: Me too - morricab 01:53:03 11/14/15 (6)

RE: Me too - Inmate51 08:47:01 11/16/15 (0)

RE: Me too - A.Wayne 03:39:50 11/14/15 (4)

RE: Me too - morricab 12:47:50 11/14/15 (3)

RE: Me too - Tony Lauck 14:03:47 11/14/15 (2)

RE: Me too - A.Wayne 14:26:45 11/14/15 (1)

RE: Me too - Tony Lauck 18:20:24 11/14/15 (0)

You seem to have overlooked the case where the amp measures well and sounds good... - Steve O 16:59:16 11/12/15 (58)

That one is interesting, do you have an example? - Ralph 10:40:24 11/13/15 (24)

RE: That one is interesting, do you have an example? -- Mc 275 (nt) - goldenthal 21:14:02 11/14/15 (7)

I don't think that one counts - Ralph 08:41:55 11/16/15 (6)

RE: I don't think that one counts -- See J.A. - goldenthal 13:05:05 11/16/15 (5)

I certainly agree with that! - Ralph 13:28:08 11/16/15 (4)

RE: I certainly agree with that! - goldenthal 13:37:25 11/16/15 (3)

Makes me wonder what is meant when - Ralph 13:51:48 11/16/15 (2)

Here's one - E-Stat 15:16:25 11/16/15 (1)

Thanks nt - Ralph 20:26:34 11/16/15 (0)

Yes... - Steve O 12:11:33 11/13/15 (13)

I've never been able to listen to a Benchmark DAC... - Ivan303 20:53:58 11/13/15 (6)

RE: I've never been able to listen to a Benchmark DAC... - morricab 12:50:50 11/14/15 (0)

It's not just an amplifier, it's an amplifier with THX technology inside (nt) - Steve O 21:13:35 11/13/15 (4)

RE: It's not just an amplifier, it's an amplifier with THX technology inside (nt) - E-Stat 06:23:10 11/14/15 (3)

But, but, but... - Steve O 09:17:20 11/14/15 (1)

RE: But, but, but... - E-Stat 09:23:01 11/14/15 (0)

RE: "hard and thin".... - Ivan303 07:44:59 11/14/15 (0)

RE: Yes... - morricab 14:08:08 11/13/15 (4)

"So what if KR liked it?"... - Steve O 17:01:55 11/13/15 (3)

RE: "So what if KR liked it?"... - morricab 12:55:02 11/14/15 (2)

Inconsistencies and cherry picking?... - Steve O 20:34:38 11/14/15 (1)

RE: Inconsistencies and cherry picking?... - morricab 14:18:12 11/15/15 (0)

RE: Yes... - Ralph 12:26:16 11/13/15 (0)

RE: That one is interesting, do you have an example? - A.Wayne 11:29:07 11/13/15 (1)

Could you elaborate? nt - Ralph 12:15:19 11/13/15 (0)

Unfortunately - E-Stat 17:13:08 11/12/15 (32)

RE: Unfortunately - fstein 09:25:06 11/14/15 (1)

Some missed it :) -nt - E-Stat 12:41:46 11/14/15 (0)

You missed the point... - Steve O 17:48:08 11/12/15 (29)

RE: You missed the point... - morricab 09:09:32 11/13/15 (0)

You never stated the "point" - E-Stat 18:20:49 11/12/15 (27)

I got your point Steve O - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 18:55:13 11/12/15 (12)

RE: I got your point Steve O - morricab 09:13:46 11/13/15 (11)

Understood, but ... - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 15:36:24 11/13/15 (1)

RE: Understood, but ... - morricab 13:12:24 11/14/15 (0)

RE: I got your point Steve O, but , but, the Theories - A.Wayne 09:23:18 11/13/15 (8)

Not sure of the point of your link - E-Stat 06:52:57 11/14/15 (2)

RE: Not sure of the point of your link, well ... - A.Wayne 07:45:35 11/14/15 (1)

In retrospect... - E-Stat 07:55:46 11/14/15 (0)

Yeah, there is that.... - kuribo 14:39:18 11/13/15 (0)

RE: I got your point Steve O, but , but, the Theories - morricab 11:36:40 11/13/15 (3)

RE: I got your point Steve O, but , but, the Theories - A.Wayne 11:39:39 11/13/15 (2)

RE: I got your point Steve O, but , but, the Theories - Ralph 12:30:49 11/13/15 (1)

Agreed, but... - E-Stat 08:23:34 11/14/15 (0)

The "point" was in the subject header... - Steve O 18:44:00 11/12/15 (13)

RE: The "point" was in the subject header... - E-Stat 18:52:28 11/12/15 (12)

RE: The "point" was in the subject header... - Steve O 20:07:36 11/12/15 (11)

RE: The "point" was in the subject header... - morricab 09:15:08 11/13/15 (6)

Geddes... - Steve O 20:12:15 11/13/15 (2)

RE: Geddes... - morricab 13:24:30 11/14/15 (0)

RE: Geddes... - A.Wayne 03:43:13 11/14/15 (0)

RE: The "point" was in the subject header... - A.Wayne 09:35:45 11/13/15 (2)

Wonder why Geddes doesn't use a SET? I understand he uses a Pioneer mid-fi receiver...nt - kuribo 14:43:18 11/13/15 (0)

RE: The "point" was in the subject header... - morricab 11:37:58 11/13/15 (0)

Thank you! - E-Stat 05:56:30 11/13/15 (3)

RE: Thank you! - Steve O 08:39:53 11/13/15 (2)

RE: Thank you! - morricab 09:16:42 11/13/15 (0)

Agreed - E-Stat 08:53:10 11/13/15 (0)

You can't cheat the exam if you don't know the question - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 16:08:59 11/12/15 (2)

The cheat was that it works on paper (or in the case of VW, under test, pretty much the same thing) - Ralph 10:34:10 11/13/15 (0)

RE: You can't cheat the exam if you don't know the question - A.Wayne 17:12:05 11/12/15 (0)

RE: Would you .... - fstein 14:54:15 11/11/15 (6)

RE: Would you .... - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 16:18:47 11/11/15 (5)

RE: Would you .... - fstein 21:01:30 11/11/15 (4)

This is the point I was making in the thread below - Ralph 12:36:02 11/12/15 (1)

RE: This is the point I was making in the thread below - fstein 13:37:22 11/12/15 (0)

RE: Would you .... - Steve O 21:53:28 11/11/15 (1)

RE: Would you .... - fstein 07:10:48 11/12/15 (0)

RE: Would you .... - fstein 14:47:05 11/11/15 (3)

RE: Would you .... - morricab 09:18:57 11/13/15 (2)

RE: Would you ....Try the sim .... - A.Wayne 10:09:20 11/13/15 (1)

RE: Would you ....Try the sim .... - morricab 13:26:50 11/14/15 (0)

RE: surrogates - A.Wayne 07:23:58 11/11/15 (2)

RE: surrogates - fstein 14:46:22 11/11/15 (0)

RE: surrogates and their speakers - A.Wayne 13:34:57 11/11/15 (0)

The pursuit - E-Stat 06:41:45 11/11/15 (21)

RE: The pursuit - Pat D 17:24:05 11/11/15 (20)

By all means - E-Stat 17:35:39 11/11/15 (19)

RE: By all means - Pat D 16:01:12 11/12/15 (18)

RE: By all means - Dave_K 07:21:18 11/13/15 (3)

RE: By all means - Pat D 12:55:30 11/16/15 (2)

Harmonic distortion is non-linear distortion - Dave_K 19:58:40 11/16/15 (1)

RE: Harmonic distortion is non-linear distortion - Pat D 15:02:36 11/18/15 (0)

Then... - E-Stat 16:15:35 11/12/15 (13)

RE: Then... - Pat D 20:18:28 11/12/15 (12)

Completely expected - E-Stat 06:03:45 11/13/15 (11)

RE: Completely expected - Pat D 13:46:40 11/16/15 (10)

At the expense of observing the obvious - E-Stat 14:15:06 11/16/15 (8)

RE: At the expense of observing the obvious - Pat D 16:51:43 11/16/15 (7)

RE: At the expense of observing the obvious - E-Stat 17:17:44 11/16/15 (6)

RE: At the expense of observing the obvious - Pat D 15:06:08 11/18/15 (5)

You either hear differences - E-Stat 15:33:06 11/18/15 (4)

RE: You either hear differences - Pat D 18:06:55 11/19/15 (3)

RE: You either hear differences - E-Stat 09:43:30 11/20/15 (2)

RE: You either hear differences - Pat D 18:25:42 11/20/15 (1)

Stay comfortable - E-Stat 06:23:16 11/21/15 (0)

Interesting to note in your linked thread that more than one EE made the comment that harmonic distortion - kuribo 14:07:44 11/16/15 (0)

RE: surrogates - geoffkait 05:15:26 11/11/15 (20)

RE: surrogates - BubbaMike 12:50:21 11/12/15 (1)

Ouch! Very ouch! - geoffkait 13:15:29 11/12/15 (0)

RE: surrogates - fstein 14:49:01 11/11/15 (17)

I was the proud holder - E-Stat 19:13:09 11/11/15 (15)

I think they were earlier than that. - Ralph 12:32:41 11/12/15 (12)

You're mistaken - E-Stat 12:44:37 11/12/15 (11)

funny how time flies - Ralph 13:02:16 11/12/15 (7)

It was - E-Stat 13:14:48 11/12/15 (6)

RE: It was, - A.Wayne 15:13:44 11/12/15 (5)

Yep - E-Stat 16:22:23 11/12/15 (4)

RE: Yep, same family - A.Wayne 17:24:17 11/12/15 (3)

RE: Yep, same family - E-Stat 17:29:44 11/12/15 (2)

RE: Yep, same family - A.Wayne 18:03:21 11/12/15 (1)

Better "pulp"? - E-Stat 18:14:46 11/12/15 (0)

RE: Don't think so, but it must have been kept in production - Ralph 12:59:43 11/12/15 (2)

I'm not talking about its design or first release date - E-Stat 13:06:24 11/12/15 (1)

Right. - Ralph 13:15:27 11/12/15 (0)

I had one of those! - Barry 06:13:59 11/12/15 (1)

We can commiserate together! - E-Stat 06:50:01 11/12/15 (0)

RE: flame linear , Dyna pat ...... Errr nope - A.Wayne 16:08:10 11/11/15 (0)

RE: surrogates - John Atkinson 03:56:17 11/11/15 (3)

RE: surrogates - MarkJohns 16:47:03 11/11/15 (2)

RE: surrogates - fstein 13:42:18 11/12/15 (1)

And which gear, perhaps is "excellent", i.e., coincides with your tastes and prejudices....nt - kuribo 14:48:35 11/12/15 (0)

RE: surrogates - A.Wayne 03:32:06 11/11/15 (0)

Follow Ups

What about "threshold of audibility" can't you understand? The ear CAN'T pick ANYTHING out that's ( T.A. - kuribo 13:03:14 11/16/15 (26)

That is actually a different topic and phenomena and I have no problem with it. - Ralph 13:25:17 11/16/15 (25)

Different? How so? You said 7th harmonic matters....I said not if it's inaudible... - kuribo 13:46:11 11/16/15 (23)

The point is that the 7th is rarely inaudible. - Ralph 14:15:27 11/16/15 (15)

RE: The point ? When Kuribo weighs in - A.Wayne 15:10:19 11/16/15 (12)

RE: Hey how about a Shoot out ................ - A.Wayne 15:11:31 11/16/15 (11)

He doesn't care how they SOUND...(nt) - mkuller 16:33:40 11/16/15 (1)

How wrong you are...FYI: I don't care how YOU think they sound....nt - kuribo 18:03:34 11/16/15 (0)

Not interested in subjective opinions....but thanks for the offer...nt - kuribo 15:13:56 11/16/15 (8)

That's odd- do you only play sine waves when you are at home? nt - Ralph 20:17:56 11/16/15 (3)

Really? Is that your best shot? nt - kuribo 20:34:16 11/16/15 (2)

kuribo and Ralph: enough is enough - The Bored 09:28:31 11/17/15 (0)

No- just a statement of fact. You have to use your ears to hear. nt - Ralph 08:31:25 11/17/15 (0)

RE: Not interested in subjective opinions....but thanks for the offer...nt - A.Wayne 15:17:07 11/16/15 (3)

No, we sit around and laugh at all those poo-pooing class d......nt - kuribo 15:26:32 11/16/15 (2)

Awful lot of laughs for you... - mkuller 16:35:07 11/16/15 (1)

Get back to me when you have something of substance to add to the discussion...nt - kuribo 18:04:37 11/16/15 (0)

There, you said it- if you can't hear it, it doesn't matter.... - kuribo 14:50:38 11/16/15 (1)

Cripes - Ralph 20:14:08 11/16/15 (0)

Like Curl says in his article... - mkuller 14:15:04 11/16/15 (6)

He shouldn't have to because most intelligent people understand implicitly - kuribo 14:42:15 11/16/15 (5)

Then it's obvious... - mkuller 14:47:23 11/16/15 (4)

Inaudible is inaudible. Do you have some data to share which shows otherwise? Please share....nt - kuribo 14:53:01 11/16/15 (3)

I did. Read John Curl's article. nt - Ralph 20:19:17 11/16/15 (2)

Read Bruno Putseys' paper on the use of negative feedback. Read the measurements of ncore... - kuribo 20:39:28 11/16/15 (1)

You really don't know how this works do you. - Ralph 08:33:02 11/17/15 (0)

Wow - E-Stat 13:44:54 11/16/15 (0)