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In Reply to: RE: And... posted by MarkJohns on November 14, 2015 at 14:32:47:
There is not necessarily any inconsistency. There are different types of distortion created by speakers and electronics and these are not equivalently correlated to listening perception. Also, speakers tend to create much more distortion than electronics, but the distortions they create are generally less objectionable than the distortions produced by electronics. There are different standards used when evaluating measurements of speakers and electronics because of these differences. If there were a single number that measured "distortion" that was used for both speakers and electronics then there would be an inconsistency. The real situation is much more complicated.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
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Follow Ups Full ThreadTopic - surrogates - fstein 20:40:27 11/10/15 (229)
- RE: surrogates - MarkJohns 14:39:42 11/17/15 (0)
- RE: surrogates - mlee 08:52:29 11/15/15 (2)
- RE: surrogates - fstein 10:06:43 11/17/15 (0)
- That's a false dichotomy - Dave_K 08:27:11 11/17/15 (0)
- And... - Ivan303 20:45:15 11/13/15 (36)
- RE: And... - fstein 09:21:18 11/14/15 (35)
- RE: And... - MarkJohns 14:32:47 11/14/15 (25)
- RE: And... - John Atkinson 10:57:55 11/15/15 (23)
- RE: And... - MarkJohns 12:38:26 11/15/15 (22)
- RE: And... - John Atkinson 12:54:33 11/15/15 (21)
- RE: And... - Dave_K 08:58:21 11/16/15 (0)
- No doubt with more than one "listener", you will have opinions on both sides... - kuribo 05:59:11 11/16/15 (0)
- And this brings up the question, JA - morricab 01:43:46 11/16/15 (0)
- RE: And... - MarkJohns 13:17:28 11/15/15 (17)
- RE: And... - E-Stat 12:13:18 11/16/15 (0)
- RE: And... - morricab 01:51:22 11/16/15 (10)
- RE: And... - MarkJohns 08:28:25 11/16/15 (9)
- There are a number of misconceptions here - Ralph 10:52:53 11/16/15 (8)
- RE: There are a number of misconceptions here - MarkJohns 18:53:02 11/16/15 (7)
- FWIW JA and I often do not agree. - Ralph 20:07:43 11/16/15 (6)
- RE: FWIW JA and I often do not agree. - MarkJohns 04:58:56 11/17/15 (1)
- I'll post for you my position on feedback as I did for A Wayne. - Ralph 09:00:49 11/17/15 (0)
- RE: FWIW JA and I often do not agree. - A.Wayne 20:42:11 11/16/15 (3)
- tricky. - Ralph 08:35:46 11/17/15 (2)
- RE: tricky. - A.Wayne 05:48:31 11/18/15 (1)
- ? - Ralph 09:06:23 11/18/15 (0)
- RE: And... - mkuller 20:19:48 11/15/15 (4)
- RE: And... - A.Wayne 20:46:45 11/15/15 (3)
- You guys? - mkuller 21:40:01 11/15/15 (2)
- RE: You guys? - A.Wayne 09:21:22 11/16/15 (1)
- Poison... - mkuller 10:27:33 11/16/15 (0)
- RE: And... - Tony Lauck 18:35:46 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: And... - John Atkinson 12:22:33 11/14/15 (7)
- I don't think you are right about this John. - Ralph 14:03:27 11/14/15 (5)
- +1... - Ivan303 08:46:34 11/15/15 (0)
- RE: I don't think you are right about this John. - A.Wayne 14:31:12 11/14/15 (3)
- I really don't know how a person would go about that. - Ralph 08:37:13 11/16/15 (0)
- RE: I don't think you are right about this John. - morricab 02:25:50 11/16/15 (0)
- RE: I don't think you are right about this John. - MarkJohns 15:06:13 11/14/15 (0)
- And that is all you can realistically ask for....nt - kuribo 12:58:19 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: Stereophile subjective and Objective Reviews - A.Wayne 10:01:59 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: surrogates - Inmate51 10:06:16 11/12/15 (5)
- RE: surrogates - fstein 12:13:05 11/13/15 (0)
- RE: surrogates - fstein 13:35:21 11/12/15 (3)
- Excellent... - mkuller 14:25:46 11/13/15 (2)
- Great parallel - E-Stat 06:01:36 11/14/15 (0)
- Bingo! - Ivan303 20:47:33 11/13/15 (0)
- Measurements and Hearing - Inmate51 09:20:04 11/12/15 (5)
- RE: Measurements and Hearing - tomservo 17:21:42 11/12/15 (0)
- +1 on that. - Ralph 12:38:46 11/12/15 (3)
- RE: +1 on that. - E-Stat 17:26:03 11/12/15 (1)
- RE: +1 on that. - A.Wayne 17:50:09 11/12/15 (0)
- RE: +1 on that. - Inmate51 14:49:47 11/12/15 (0)
- Would you .... - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 13:54:25 11/11/15 (124)
- Here is the problem with this analogy. - Ralph 13:57:20 11/12/15 (112)
- RE: Here is the problem with this analogy. - fstein 13:59:31 11/13/15 (49)
- Let us know what the metric is for "good sound"....nt - kuribo 14:08:46 11/13/15 (48)
- Lack of the 7th harmonic is a good place to start. - Ralph 14:41:17 11/13/15 (47)
- Lots of amps, ss and class d alike, have inaudible 7th harmonic distortion- some like them, some don't..nt - kuribo 14:45:31 11/13/15 (46)
- Don't know of one where its 'inaudible' - Ralph 15:40:03 11/13/15 (45)
- Human hearing does not have infinite sensitivity....There is indeed a measureable level when our ears cease - kuribo 17:34:23 11/13/15 (44)
- That really isn't how it works. - Ralph 17:59:21 11/13/15 (43)
- I'ld love to see a source for that -140dB claim.... - kuribo 19:17:28 11/13/15 (42)
- You really don't seem to get the point and have been quite consistant in that regard for months now. - Ralph 13:51:26 11/14/15 (31)
- I get the point just fine...You can't seem to grasp the fact that there exists a threshold of audibility - kuribo 14:21:26 11/14/15 (30)
- Actually I do get that but when it comes to higher ordered harmonics - Ralph 08:29:39 11/16/15 (27)
- What about "threshold of audibility" can't you understand? The ear CAN'T pick ANYTHING out that's ( T.A. - kuribo 13:03:14 11/16/15 (26)
- That is actually a different topic and phenomena and I have no problem with it. - Ralph 13:25:17 11/16/15 (25)
- Different? How so? You said 7th harmonic matters....I said not if it's inaudible... - kuribo 13:46:11 11/16/15 (23)
- The point is that the 7th is rarely inaudible. - Ralph 14:15:27 11/16/15 (15)
- RE: The point ? When Kuribo weighs in - A.Wayne 15:10:19 11/16/15 (12)
- RE: Hey how about a Shoot out ................ - A.Wayne 15:11:31 11/16/15 (11)
- He doesn't care how they SOUND...(nt) - mkuller 16:33:40 11/16/15 (1)
- How wrong you are...FYI: I don't care how YOU think they sound....nt - kuribo 18:03:34 11/16/15 (0)
- Not interested in subjective opinions....but thanks for the offer...nt - kuribo 15:13:56 11/16/15 (8)
- That's odd- do you only play sine waves when you are at home? nt - Ralph 20:17:56 11/16/15 (3)
- Really? Is that your best shot? nt - kuribo 20:34:16 11/16/15 (2)
- kuribo and Ralph: enough is enough - The Bored 09:28:31 11/17/15 (0)
- No- just a statement of fact. You have to use your ears to hear. nt - Ralph 08:31:25 11/17/15 (0)
- RE: Not interested in subjective opinions....but thanks for the offer...nt - A.Wayne 15:17:07 11/16/15 (3)
- No, we sit around and laugh at all those poo-pooing class d......nt - kuribo 15:26:32 11/16/15 (2)
- Awful lot of laughs for you... - mkuller 16:35:07 11/16/15 (1)
- Get back to me when you have something of substance to add to the discussion...nt - kuribo 18:04:37 11/16/15 (0)
- There, you said it- if you can't hear it, it doesn't matter.... - kuribo 14:50:38 11/16/15 (1)
- Cripes - Ralph 20:14:08 11/16/15 (0)
- Like Curl says in his article... - mkuller 14:15:04 11/16/15 (6)
- He shouldn't have to because most intelligent people understand implicitly - kuribo 14:42:15 11/16/15 (5)
- Then it's obvious... - mkuller 14:47:23 11/16/15 (4)
- Inaudible is inaudible. Do you have some data to share which shows otherwise? Please share....nt - kuribo 14:53:01 11/16/15 (3)
- I did. Read John Curl's article. nt - Ralph 20:19:17 11/16/15 (2)
- Read Bruno Putseys' paper on the use of negative feedback. Read the measurements of ncore... - kuribo 20:39:28 11/16/15 (1)
- You really don't know how this works do you. - Ralph 08:33:02 11/17/15 (0)
- Wow - E-Stat 13:44:54 11/16/15 (0)
- RE: I get the point just fine...You can't seem to grasp the fact that there exists a threshold of audibility - Tony Lauck 18:46:19 11/14/15 (1)
- Do you have any test data on the ncore amps which shows audible harmonic distortion with complex signal input? - kuribo 05:47:44 11/15/15 (0)
- Me too - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 23:41:07 11/13/15 (9)
- Most of what I have read limits single tone audibility to around -80dB max... - kuribo 08:18:04 11/14/15 (1)
- RE: Most of what I have read limits single tone audibility to around -80dB max... - Dave_K 10:17:08 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: Me too - morricab 01:53:03 11/14/15 (6)
- RE: Me too - Inmate51 08:47:01 11/16/15 (0)
- RE: Me too - A.Wayne 03:39:50 11/14/15 (4)
- RE: Me too - morricab 12:47:50 11/14/15 (3)
- RE: Me too - Tony Lauck 14:03:47 11/14/15 (2)
- RE: Me too - A.Wayne 14:26:45 11/14/15 (1)
- RE: Me too - Tony Lauck 18:20:24 11/14/15 (0)
- You seem to have overlooked the case where the amp measures well and sounds good... - Steve O 16:59:16 11/12/15 (58)
- That one is interesting, do you have an example? - Ralph 10:40:24 11/13/15 (24)
- RE: That one is interesting, do you have an example? -- Mc 275 (nt) - goldenthal 21:14:02 11/14/15 (7)
- I don't think that one counts - Ralph 08:41:55 11/16/15 (6)
- RE: I don't think that one counts -- See J.A. - goldenthal 13:05:05 11/16/15 (5)
- I certainly agree with that! - Ralph 13:28:08 11/16/15 (4)
- RE: I certainly agree with that! - goldenthal 13:37:25 11/16/15 (3)
- Makes me wonder what is meant when - Ralph 13:51:48 11/16/15 (2)
- Here's one - E-Stat 15:16:25 11/16/15 (1)
- Thanks nt - Ralph 20:26:34 11/16/15 (0)
- Yes... - Steve O 12:11:33 11/13/15 (13)
- I've never been able to listen to a Benchmark DAC... - Ivan303 20:53:58 11/13/15 (6)
- RE: I've never been able to listen to a Benchmark DAC... - morricab 12:50:50 11/14/15 (0)
- It's not just an amplifier, it's an amplifier with THX technology inside (nt) - Steve O 21:13:35 11/13/15 (4)
- RE: It's not just an amplifier, it's an amplifier with THX technology inside (nt) - E-Stat 06:23:10 11/14/15 (3)
- But, but, but... - Steve O 09:17:20 11/14/15 (1)
- RE: But, but, but... - E-Stat 09:23:01 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: "hard and thin".... - Ivan303 07:44:59 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: Yes... - morricab 14:08:08 11/13/15 (4)
- "So what if KR liked it?"... - Steve O 17:01:55 11/13/15 (3)
- RE: "So what if KR liked it?"... - morricab 12:55:02 11/14/15 (2)
- Inconsistencies and cherry picking?... - Steve O 20:34:38 11/14/15 (1)
- RE: Inconsistencies and cherry picking?... - morricab 14:18:12 11/15/15 (0)
- RE: Yes... - Ralph 12:26:16 11/13/15 (0)
- RE: That one is interesting, do you have an example? - A.Wayne 11:29:07 11/13/15 (1)
- Could you elaborate? nt - Ralph 12:15:19 11/13/15 (0)
- Unfortunately - E-Stat 17:13:08 11/12/15 (32)
- RE: Unfortunately - fstein 09:25:06 11/14/15 (1)
- Some missed it :) -nt - E-Stat 12:41:46 11/14/15 (0)
- You missed the point... - Steve O 17:48:08 11/12/15 (29)
- RE: You missed the point... - morricab 09:09:32 11/13/15 (0)
- You never stated the "point" - E-Stat 18:20:49 11/12/15 (27)
- I got your point Steve O - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 18:55:13 11/12/15 (12)
- RE: I got your point Steve O - morricab 09:13:46 11/13/15 (11)
- Understood, but ... - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 15:36:24 11/13/15 (1)
- RE: Understood, but ... - morricab 13:12:24 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: I got your point Steve O, but , but, the Theories - A.Wayne 09:23:18 11/13/15 (8)
- Not sure of the point of your link - E-Stat 06:52:57 11/14/15 (2)
- RE: Not sure of the point of your link, well ... - A.Wayne 07:45:35 11/14/15 (1)
- In retrospect... - E-Stat 07:55:46 11/14/15 (0)
- Yeah, there is that.... - kuribo 14:39:18 11/13/15 (0)
- RE: I got your point Steve O, but , but, the Theories - morricab 11:36:40 11/13/15 (3)
- RE: I got your point Steve O, but , but, the Theories - A.Wayne 11:39:39 11/13/15 (2)
- RE: I got your point Steve O, but , but, the Theories - Ralph 12:30:49 11/13/15 (1)
- Agreed, but... - E-Stat 08:23:34 11/14/15 (0)
- The "point" was in the subject header... - Steve O 18:44:00 11/12/15 (13)
- RE: The "point" was in the subject header... - E-Stat 18:52:28 11/12/15 (12)
- RE: The "point" was in the subject header... - Steve O 20:07:36 11/12/15 (11)
- RE: The "point" was in the subject header... - morricab 09:15:08 11/13/15 (6)
- Geddes... - Steve O 20:12:15 11/13/15 (2)
- RE: Geddes... - morricab 13:24:30 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: Geddes... - A.Wayne 03:43:13 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: The "point" was in the subject header... - A.Wayne 09:35:45 11/13/15 (2)
- Wonder why Geddes doesn't use a SET? I understand he uses a Pioneer mid-fi receiver...nt - kuribo 14:43:18 11/13/15 (0)
- RE: The "point" was in the subject header... - morricab 11:37:58 11/13/15 (0)
- Thank you! - E-Stat 05:56:30 11/13/15 (3)
- RE: Thank you! - Steve O 08:39:53 11/13/15 (2)
- RE: Thank you! - morricab 09:16:42 11/13/15 (0)
- Agreed - E-Stat 08:53:10 11/13/15 (0)
- You can't cheat the exam if you don't know the question - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 16:08:59 11/12/15 (2)
- The cheat was that it works on paper (or in the case of VW, under test, pretty much the same thing) - Ralph 10:34:10 11/13/15 (0)
- RE: You can't cheat the exam if you don't know the question - A.Wayne 17:12:05 11/12/15 (0)
- RE: Would you .... - fstein 14:54:15 11/11/15 (6)
- RE: Would you .... - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 16:18:47 11/11/15 (5)
- RE: Would you .... - fstein 21:01:30 11/11/15 (4)
- This is the point I was making in the thread below - Ralph 12:36:02 11/12/15 (1)
- RE: This is the point I was making in the thread below - fstein 13:37:22 11/12/15 (0)
- RE: Would you .... - Steve O 21:53:28 11/11/15 (1)
- RE: Would you .... - fstein 07:10:48 11/12/15 (0)
- RE: Would you .... - fstein 14:47:05 11/11/15 (3)
- RE: Would you .... - morricab 09:18:57 11/13/15 (2)
- RE: Would you ....Try the sim .... - A.Wayne 10:09:20 11/13/15 (1)
- RE: Would you ....Try the sim .... - morricab 13:26:50 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: surrogates - A.Wayne 07:23:58 11/11/15 (2)
- RE: surrogates - fstein 14:46:22 11/11/15 (0)
- RE: surrogates and their speakers - A.Wayne 13:34:57 11/11/15 (0)
- The pursuit - E-Stat 06:41:45 11/11/15 (21)
- RE: The pursuit - Pat D 17:24:05 11/11/15 (20)
- By all means - E-Stat 17:35:39 11/11/15 (19)
- RE: By all means - Pat D 16:01:12 11/12/15 (18)
- RE: By all means - Dave_K 07:21:18 11/13/15 (3)
- RE: By all means - Pat D 12:55:30 11/16/15 (2)
- Harmonic distortion is non-linear distortion - Dave_K 19:58:40 11/16/15 (1)
- RE: Harmonic distortion is non-linear distortion - Pat D 15:02:36 11/18/15 (0)
- Then... - E-Stat 16:15:35 11/12/15 (13)
- RE: Then... - Pat D 20:18:28 11/12/15 (12)
- Completely expected - E-Stat 06:03:45 11/13/15 (11)
- RE: Completely expected - Pat D 13:46:40 11/16/15 (10)
- At the expense of observing the obvious - E-Stat 14:15:06 11/16/15 (8)
- RE: At the expense of observing the obvious - Pat D 16:51:43 11/16/15 (7)
- RE: At the expense of observing the obvious - E-Stat 17:17:44 11/16/15 (6)
- RE: At the expense of observing the obvious - Pat D 15:06:08 11/18/15 (5)
- You either hear differences - E-Stat 15:33:06 11/18/15 (4)
- RE: You either hear differences - Pat D 18:06:55 11/19/15 (3)
- RE: You either hear differences - E-Stat 09:43:30 11/20/15 (2)
- RE: You either hear differences - Pat D 18:25:42 11/20/15 (1)
- Stay comfortable - E-Stat 06:23:16 11/21/15 (0)
- Interesting to note in your linked thread that more than one EE made the comment that harmonic distortion - kuribo 14:07:44 11/16/15 (0)
- RE: surrogates - geoffkait 05:15:26 11/11/15 (20)
- RE: surrogates - BubbaMike 12:50:21 11/12/15 (1)
- Ouch! Very ouch! - geoffkait 13:15:29 11/12/15 (0)
- RE: surrogates - fstein 14:49:01 11/11/15 (17)
- I was the proud holder - E-Stat 19:13:09 11/11/15 (15)
- I think they were earlier than that. - Ralph 12:32:41 11/12/15 (12)
- You're mistaken - E-Stat 12:44:37 11/12/15 (11)
- funny how time flies - Ralph 13:02:16 11/12/15 (7)
- It was - E-Stat 13:14:48 11/12/15 (6)
- RE: It was, - A.Wayne 15:13:44 11/12/15 (5)
- Yep - E-Stat 16:22:23 11/12/15 (4)
- RE: Yep, same family - A.Wayne 17:24:17 11/12/15 (3)
- RE: Yep, same family - E-Stat 17:29:44 11/12/15 (2)
- RE: Yep, same family - A.Wayne 18:03:21 11/12/15 (1)
- Better "pulp"? - E-Stat 18:14:46 11/12/15 (0)
- RE: Don't think so, but it must have been kept in production - Ralph 12:59:43 11/12/15 (2)
- I'm not talking about its design or first release date - E-Stat 13:06:24 11/12/15 (1)
- Right. - Ralph 13:15:27 11/12/15 (0)
- I had one of those! - Barry 06:13:59 11/12/15 (1)
- We can commiserate together! - E-Stat 06:50:01 11/12/15 (0)
- RE: flame linear , Dyna pat ...... Errr nope - A.Wayne 16:08:10 11/11/15 (0)
- RE: surrogates - John Atkinson 03:56:17 11/11/15 (3)
- RE: surrogates - MarkJohns 16:47:03 11/11/15 (2)
- RE: surrogates - fstein 13:42:18 11/12/15 (1)
- And which gear, perhaps is "excellent", i.e., coincides with your tastes and prejudices....nt - kuribo 14:48:35 11/12/15 (0)
- RE: surrogates - A.Wayne 03:32:06 11/11/15 (0)
Follow Ups
- RE: And... - Tony Lauck 18:35:46 11/14/15 (0)