In Reply to: Would you .... posted by 13th Duke of Wymbourne on November 11, 2015 at 13:54:25:
I'm going to use your text here. When you say "not well engineered" when talking about an aircraft, the plane might have handling problems, structural problems and so on. In other words it is not able to meet the requirements of dealing with flight.
The problem you are dealing with in audio has to do with the human ear/brain system, which is in effect the equivalent of the air that a plane has to deal with (music being the other part of that- the analogy isn't perfect but it does work).
The fact of the matter is that amps that 'measure well' don't do the best when dealing with the human ear/brain perceptual system. What they do well is look good on paper. The problem here of course is we don't experience music through paper, we experience it through our ears and brain.
When the audio industry ignores the human hearing perceptual rules, it is ignoring some fundamentals! Its like not getting the airfoil right on the aircraft- pretty basic stuff.
But as an industry we do it all the time and think nothing of it. For example, its been known since the 1930s that the 7th harmonic causes a metallic hardness in audio reproduction and also that it does not have to be at a particularly high level to do that. In fact during the 1960s General Electric showed that the 7th harmonic plays a role in our ability to hear how loud a sound is- IOW the ear/brain system uses the 7th and other higher ordered harmonics to gauge sound pressure. But we routinely ignore that information too.
So when we measure the wrong things, all that happens is that amps continue to look good on paper but don't always sound good in practice. Not only that but amps that don't measure all that well might continue to sound good. We've been having this discussion now for over 35 years- how long do you think it will continue before we come around to the idea that we have to measure what is important to the human ear rather than the things that don't matter?
The bottom line here is when an amplifier is built to look good on paper, its doing much the same thing that the Volkswagon cars were doing- cheating on the exam. What is really important is what it does in real life- how well it makes music to the human ear. If its not designed to do the latter, its 'not well engineered'.
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Follow Ups
- Here is the problem with this analogy. - Ralph 13:57:20 11/12/15 (112)
- RE: Here is the problem with this analogy. - fstein 13:59:31 11/13/15 (49)
- Let us know what the metric is for "good sound"....nt - kuribo 14:08:46 11/13/15 (48)
- Lack of the 7th harmonic is a good place to start. - Ralph 14:41:17 11/13/15 (47)
- Lots of amps, ss and class d alike, have inaudible 7th harmonic distortion- some like them, some don't..nt - kuribo 14:45:31 11/13/15 (46)
- Don't know of one where its 'inaudible' - Ralph 15:40:03 11/13/15 (45)
- Human hearing does not have infinite sensitivity....There is indeed a measureable level when our ears cease - kuribo 17:34:23 11/13/15 (44)
- That really isn't how it works. - Ralph 17:59:21 11/13/15 (43)
- I'ld love to see a source for that -140dB claim.... - kuribo 19:17:28 11/13/15 (42)
- You really don't seem to get the point and have been quite consistant in that regard for months now. - Ralph 13:51:26 11/14/15 (31)
- I get the point just fine...You can't seem to grasp the fact that there exists a threshold of audibility - kuribo 14:21:26 11/14/15 (30)
- Actually I do get that but when it comes to higher ordered harmonics - Ralph 08:29:39 11/16/15 (27)
- What about "threshold of audibility" can't you understand? The ear CAN'T pick ANYTHING out that's ( T.A. - kuribo 13:03:14 11/16/15 (26)
- That is actually a different topic and phenomena and I have no problem with it. - Ralph 13:25:17 11/16/15 (25)
- Different? How so? You said 7th harmonic matters....I said not if it's inaudible... - kuribo 13:46:11 11/16/15 (23)
- The point is that the 7th is rarely inaudible. - Ralph 14:15:27 11/16/15 (15)
- RE: The point ? When Kuribo weighs in - A.Wayne 15:10:19 11/16/15 (12)
- RE: Hey how about a Shoot out ................ - A.Wayne 15:11:31 11/16/15 (11)
- He doesn't care how they SOUND...(nt) - mkuller 16:33:40 11/16/15 (1)
- How wrong you are...FYI: I don't care how YOU think they sound....nt - kuribo 18:03:34 11/16/15 (0)
- Not interested in subjective opinions....but thanks for the offer...nt - kuribo 15:13:56 11/16/15 (8)
- That's odd- do you only play sine waves when you are at home? nt - Ralph 20:17:56 11/16/15 (3)
- Really? Is that your best shot? nt - kuribo 20:34:16 11/16/15 (2)
- kuribo and Ralph: enough is enough - The Bored 09:28:31 11/17/15 (0)
- No- just a statement of fact. You have to use your ears to hear. nt - Ralph 08:31:25 11/17/15 (0)
- RE: Not interested in subjective opinions....but thanks for the offer...nt - A.Wayne 15:17:07 11/16/15 (3)
- No, we sit around and laugh at all those poo-pooing class d......nt - kuribo 15:26:32 11/16/15 (2)
- Awful lot of laughs for you... - mkuller 16:35:07 11/16/15 (1)
- Get back to me when you have something of substance to add to the discussion...nt - kuribo 18:04:37 11/16/15 (0)
- There, you said it- if you can't hear it, it doesn't matter.... - kuribo 14:50:38 11/16/15 (1)
- Cripes - Ralph 20:14:08 11/16/15 (0)
- Like Curl says in his article... - mkuller 14:15:04 11/16/15 (6)
- He shouldn't have to because most intelligent people understand implicitly - kuribo 14:42:15 11/16/15 (5)
- Then it's obvious... - mkuller 14:47:23 11/16/15 (4)
- Inaudible is inaudible. Do you have some data to share which shows otherwise? Please share....nt - kuribo 14:53:01 11/16/15 (3)
- I did. Read John Curl's article. nt - Ralph 20:19:17 11/16/15 (2)
- Read Bruno Putseys' paper on the use of negative feedback. Read the measurements of ncore... - kuribo 20:39:28 11/16/15 (1)
- You really don't know how this works do you. - Ralph 08:33:02 11/17/15 (0)
- Wow - E-Stat 13:44:54 11/16/15 (0)
- RE: I get the point just fine...You can't seem to grasp the fact that there exists a threshold of audibility - Tony Lauck 18:46:19 11/14/15 (1)
- Do you have any test data on the ncore amps which shows audible harmonic distortion with complex signal input? - kuribo 05:47:44 11/15/15 (0)
- Me too - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 23:41:07 11/13/15 (9)
- Most of what I have read limits single tone audibility to around -80dB max... - kuribo 08:18:04 11/14/15 (1)
- RE: Most of what I have read limits single tone audibility to around -80dB max... - Dave_K 10:17:08 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: Me too - morricab 01:53:03 11/14/15 (6)
- RE: Me too - Inmate51 08:47:01 11/16/15 (0)
- RE: Me too - A.Wayne 03:39:50 11/14/15 (4)
- RE: Me too - morricab 12:47:50 11/14/15 (3)
- RE: Me too - Tony Lauck 14:03:47 11/14/15 (2)
- RE: Me too - A.Wayne 14:26:45 11/14/15 (1)
- RE: Me too - Tony Lauck 18:20:24 11/14/15 (0)
- You seem to have overlooked the case where the amp measures well and sounds good... - Steve O 16:59:16 11/12/15 (58)
- That one is interesting, do you have an example? - Ralph 10:40:24 11/13/15 (24)
- RE: That one is interesting, do you have an example? -- Mc 275 (nt) - goldenthal 21:14:02 11/14/15 (7)
- I don't think that one counts - Ralph 08:41:55 11/16/15 (6)
- RE: I don't think that one counts -- See J.A. - goldenthal 13:05:05 11/16/15 (5)
- I certainly agree with that! - Ralph 13:28:08 11/16/15 (4)
- RE: I certainly agree with that! - goldenthal 13:37:25 11/16/15 (3)
- Makes me wonder what is meant when - Ralph 13:51:48 11/16/15 (2)
- Here's one - E-Stat 15:16:25 11/16/15 (1)
- Thanks nt - Ralph 20:26:34 11/16/15 (0)
- Yes... - Steve O 12:11:33 11/13/15 (13)
- I've never been able to listen to a Benchmark DAC... - Ivan303 20:53:58 11/13/15 (6)
- RE: I've never been able to listen to a Benchmark DAC... - morricab 12:50:50 11/14/15 (0)
- It's not just an amplifier, it's an amplifier with THX technology inside (nt) - Steve O 21:13:35 11/13/15 (4)
- RE: It's not just an amplifier, it's an amplifier with THX technology inside (nt) - E-Stat 06:23:10 11/14/15 (3)
- But, but, but... - Steve O 09:17:20 11/14/15 (1)
- RE: But, but, but... - E-Stat 09:23:01 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: "hard and thin".... - Ivan303 07:44:59 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: Yes... - morricab 14:08:08 11/13/15 (4)
- "So what if KR liked it?"... - Steve O 17:01:55 11/13/15 (3)
- RE: "So what if KR liked it?"... - morricab 12:55:02 11/14/15 (2)
- Inconsistencies and cherry picking?... - Steve O 20:34:38 11/14/15 (1)
- RE: Inconsistencies and cherry picking?... - morricab 14:18:12 11/15/15 (0)
- RE: Yes... - Ralph 12:26:16 11/13/15 (0)
- RE: That one is interesting, do you have an example? - A.Wayne 11:29:07 11/13/15 (1)
- Could you elaborate? nt - Ralph 12:15:19 11/13/15 (0)
- Unfortunately - E-Stat 17:13:08 11/12/15 (32)
- RE: Unfortunately - fstein 09:25:06 11/14/15 (1)
- Some missed it :) -nt - E-Stat 12:41:46 11/14/15 (0)
- You missed the point... - Steve O 17:48:08 11/12/15 (29)
- RE: You missed the point... - morricab 09:09:32 11/13/15 (0)
- You never stated the "point" - E-Stat 18:20:49 11/12/15 (27)
- I got your point Steve O - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 18:55:13 11/12/15 (12)
- RE: I got your point Steve O - morricab 09:13:46 11/13/15 (11)
- Understood, but ... - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 15:36:24 11/13/15 (1)
- RE: Understood, but ... - morricab 13:12:24 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: I got your point Steve O, but , but, the Theories - A.Wayne 09:23:18 11/13/15 (8)
- Not sure of the point of your link - E-Stat 06:52:57 11/14/15 (2)
- RE: Not sure of the point of your link, well ... - A.Wayne 07:45:35 11/14/15 (1)
- In retrospect... - E-Stat 07:55:46 11/14/15 (0)
- Yeah, there is that.... - kuribo 14:39:18 11/13/15 (0)
- RE: I got your point Steve O, but , but, the Theories - morricab 11:36:40 11/13/15 (3)
- RE: I got your point Steve O, but , but, the Theories - A.Wayne 11:39:39 11/13/15 (2)
- RE: I got your point Steve O, but , but, the Theories - Ralph 12:30:49 11/13/15 (1)
- Agreed, but... - E-Stat 08:23:34 11/14/15 (0)
- The "point" was in the subject header... - Steve O 18:44:00 11/12/15 (13)
- RE: The "point" was in the subject header... - E-Stat 18:52:28 11/12/15 (12)
- RE: The "point" was in the subject header... - Steve O 20:07:36 11/12/15 (11)
- RE: The "point" was in the subject header... - morricab 09:15:08 11/13/15 (6)
- Geddes... - Steve O 20:12:15 11/13/15 (2)
- RE: Geddes... - morricab 13:24:30 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: Geddes... - A.Wayne 03:43:13 11/14/15 (0)
- RE: The "point" was in the subject header... - A.Wayne 09:35:45 11/13/15 (2)
- Wonder why Geddes doesn't use a SET? I understand he uses a Pioneer mid-fi receiver...nt - kuribo 14:43:18 11/13/15 (0)
- RE: The "point" was in the subject header... - morricab 11:37:58 11/13/15 (0)
- Thank you! - E-Stat 05:56:30 11/13/15 (3)
- RE: Thank you! - Steve O 08:39:53 11/13/15 (2)
- RE: Thank you! - morricab 09:16:42 11/13/15 (0)
- Agreed - E-Stat 08:53:10 11/13/15 (0)
- You can't cheat the exam if you don't know the question - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 16:08:59 11/12/15 (2)
- The cheat was that it works on paper (or in the case of VW, under test, pretty much the same thing) - Ralph 10:34:10 11/13/15 (0)
- RE: You can't cheat the exam if you don't know the question - A.Wayne 17:12:05 11/12/15 (0)