Red Skelton Its amazing what he knew back then in 1969

I can recall no one--both as a student and a teacher--that had/has a problem with it except, posted on November 7, 2009 at 09:30:10
jdaniel@jps.net Audiophile Posts: 4452 Location: No. California Joined: December 16, 2003	for Jehovah's Witness' Of course you know that "under God" was inserted later in our history, FWIW.

Flags:"I love the smell of Europe in the morning", posted on November 7, 2009 at 15:05:27
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28379 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000

Now that's entertaining history! ~t, posted on November 7, 2009 at 21:39:49
mpathus Audiophile Posts: 2010 Location: Eastern USA Joined: June 19, 2004	.

if you haven't seen them..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 22:38:55
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28379 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	... it's worth tracking down the DVDs of Izzard live where he genuinely improvises for somewhere around 45-60 minutes. I have a box set of, I think, 5 performances and his observations are very funny.

Izzard improvises this stuff for a hour? Kathy Griffin should take..., posted on November 8, 2009 at 15:54:46
mpathus Audiophile Posts: 2010 Location: Eastern USA Joined: June 19, 2004	...lessons on content from this guy, master improviser that she is...and maybe makeup lessons too. I can't help it, he's a hoot - and a smart one at that!

yes he does, posted on November 8, 2009 at 19:11:07
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28379 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	Now there are certainly themes and phrases just like if he were playing sax, but you can tell by how from time to time he just runs out of things to say... and says so and just starts again on something else. "double click on YES"

Chuckle...Its like he's channeling God who's mimicing..., posted on November 9, 2009 at 01:31:20

mpathus
Audiophile

Posts: 2010
Location: Eastern USA
Joined: June 19, 2004

...humans after He's had little too much Champagne.

"...check the instructions...The Book of Revelations." Got that right!!

RE: I can recall no one--both as a student and a teacher--that had/has a problem with it except, posted on November 7, 2009 at 14:48:39
Michael Samra Dealer Posts: 13114 Location: saginaw michigan Joined: January 30, 2005 Contributor Since: June 24, 2005	JD I used to date this girl many years ago that was one Jehovah's witnesses and truthfully,its scripturally backed that we shouldn't worship a flag because its an image. The second of the 10 commandments says its wrong and I would imagine early and more strict christianity realized this. If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.

Having children "pledge allegiance" to a/the flag/nation, posted on November 7, 2009 at 09:20:40
sjb Audiophile Posts: 13608 Joined: January 24, 2001 Contributor Since: May 8, 2001	is the kind of thing one would expect from totalitarian states. "The man is only half himself, the other half is his expression." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Do you think you live in a totalitarian state?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 09:56:53
J-PMatt@Comcast.Net Audiophile Posts: 4214 Location: South Jersey Joined: April 25, 2003

RE: Do you think you live in a totalitarian state?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 21:56:39
mpathus Audiophile Posts: 2010 Location: Eastern USA Joined: June 19, 2004	The USA, after having destabilized other Countries and allowing totalitarian regimes to flower in their stead, seems to have learned how very economical capitalist totalitarianism can be as a means of control - yes, we are sometimes goose stepping towards a new world disordered. Awareness can stem this ill tide.

but YOU want to, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:47:10

dave c
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Posts: 28379
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The problem is that simple.
Which nicely matches you.
Thanks for providing another example obvious enough for even your local Winger Youth to have probably noticed it.
Now, back in line and... left left left right left... off to see mummy with you.
But while you're here, answer a question: why do you think it necessary for children to parrot that pledge at school every day and what makes it different to something similar done in North Korea?
You may pause to splutter your indignation before replying.

Of course not, posted on November 7, 2009 at 10:01:31
sjb Audiophile Posts: 13608 Joined: January 24, 2001 Contributor Since: May 8, 2001	but I've long thought it strange that in a country that is so proud of it's 'freedom', children are made to recite a "pledge of allegiance". Just seems a touch incongruous. "The man is only half himself, the other half is his expression." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

The Pledge of Allegiance, posted on November 7, 2009 at 08:04:45

Prisoners
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Posts: 1703
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I remember it word for word even 30 years later. Being a patriotic and devoted American means questioning (but not necessarily disagreeing with) our elected officials and holding them to a high standard. When policy and procedures need to be changed we insist on it, not follow blindly.

The last words of the pledge are the most important, "...liberty and justice for all." When the words "under God" were added that immediately excludes anyone who doesn't believe in a supreme deity. Group prayer and religous dogma have no place in public schools or government policy, that's what churches, Sunday schools, and bedtime prayers are for.
Baba-Booey to you all!

RE: The Pledge of Allegiance, posted on November 7, 2009 at 09:29:48
Cleantimestream Audiophile Posts: 1516 Location: Kentucky Joined: June 30, 2005	"Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism" -Thomas Jefferson. "The Sound of One Hand Clapping is Crashing by Design" HKM

quotes the WInger Brethren choose to ginore... quelle surprise!, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:49:22

dave c
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Posts: 28379
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Joined: April 17, 2000

Their version of "patriotism" isn't fit for wiping your bottom.*
Just my opinion of course, but their disdain for America and its traditions... its REAL traditions is somewhere between pathetic and sickening.

* This is not a reference to ordinary right wing Americans but to the extremists who inhabit some parts of the USA and this forum. Those for whom the actual words mean nothing: those for whom "all" means nothing of the sort, whether their discrimination is on grounds of ethnicity, gender or sexual preference, of religion or politics. They are not divided in that pledge but they are by the forces of darkness who think the country is theirs. Not least by those who think the USA is a theocracy and needed to have the "god" reference added just tor am their message home.
No amount of mealy mouthed homilies will make their messages of intolerance and hate acceptable.
Not "more" acceptable, but acceptable at all.

They know who they are.

And although Thomas Jefferson was a Unitarian Universalist..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 21:46:50

mpathus
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Posts: 2010
Location: Eastern USA
Joined: June 19, 2004

...who did not exclude God from his own Church, Jefferson (and others) might not have blamed God for leaving the toilet seat up either - ymmv.

(Correction: Sorry, I got this all wrong, Jefferson was member of a nearby Episcopal Church in Va, but shared theology with the founder of the Unitarians (not Universalists until later), Joseph Priestly whose congregation was in Pa.

Must have been a B!t%ch to get around on horseback.)

Amen brother!, posted on November 7, 2009 at 10:01:20
Prisoners Audiophile Posts: 1703 Location: Chicago Joined: June 13, 2004	(pardon me for stepping outside of my usually secular self!) If one is to rerference a oft-forgotten patriot as the OP has done there is no better choice than Thomas Jefferson. Baba-Booey to you all!

If you need such "display routines" to confirm personal patriotism, then so be it..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 04:09:53

feet's too big
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Posts: 8863
Location: West Midlands
Joined: November 22, 2002

It's probably simply a question of differing cultural characteristics, but I found such glutinous self-indulgent self-congratulatory display thoroughly distasteful...

But then, I've always wondered just how much of a keen patriotism likely to be so inbuilt into the personalities of most folk that it would never need be questioned would actually need(!) to be obviously displayed, and if so, quite why that might be the case... :o)

In the US, for whatever reason(!), an apparent need to make some obvious routine display of Disney-style "patriotism" does seem to be curiously widespread amongst that culture... :o)

Bill.

RE: If you need such "display routines" to confirm personal patriotism, then so be it..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 07:55:08

tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 2518
Joined: July 4, 2002

Hi

I am not sure if understanding this better is of interest but to do that, one needs to have more of a perspective.
That was in the VietNam era where our country was torn apart with disagreement, to a degree most couldn’t relate to now relative to the “Sand wars”.

There were the anti war faction of which I was one, having an unpicked draft lottery number that year.
Then there were most adult Americans, people, many of which had served in WWII and parents of the protesters / cannon fodder.
They essentially couldn’t believe our country would ever send our soldiers off to war if it wasn’t genuinely needed militarily.
This sentiment still rings strongly in many of the patriotic, a feeling that the government wouldn’t betray them so they stand unquestioning or refusing to examine the details.
Even the government recognizes this problematic "truth" issue and has recently put retired military personal on the list of likely troublemakers who need to be disarmed should “the worst” come to pass and martial law imposed.
This from the government that was above all to flow from the people to the government and not from the government to the people.

The point though is “Red” was an entertainer my grandparents loved, getting bent out of shape because you have viewed a traditionally minded video he made 40 years ago, using it as some projection of the current and future, seems to be more like the "Disney style" imagineering to me.

"martial law imposed": and just how likely do you think THAT is?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 18:51:57
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28379 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	The closest anyone has seen on US soil would be what? Post-Katrina situations apart... is was introduced then to stop looting wasn't it? If you are trying to up the fear factor, you have probably succeeded only to the extent people think it is worth being afraid of YOU. Your descriptions of "patriotism" sounds closer to blind obedience and reinforce the image of you as North Korean in outlook.

"This sentiment still rings strongly in many of the patriotic..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 12:13:38
castironandtubes Audiophile Posts: 3855 Location: NY Joined: October 31, 2003	...a feeling that the government wouldn’t betray them so they stand unquestioning or refusing to examine the details." Well, I have never come across such a person (ever), your premise is a little outlandish in my experience. Dave

RE: "This sentiment still rings strongly in many of the patriotic..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 13:07:47
tomservo Manufacturer Posts: 2518 Joined: July 4, 2002	"Well, I have never come across such a person (ever), your premise is a little outlandish in my experience" Were you in jeopardy of going to Vietnam, have a lottery number? You ever march in a peace protest where the cops used tear gas? You live through that at all? "outlandish in my experience", that i can imagine.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the quote that I used. nt, posted on November 7, 2009 at 13:28:17
castironandtubes Audiophile Posts: 3855 Location: NY Joined: October 31, 2003

but it describes him to a tee tuning in to Pox News ..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 12:21:50
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28379 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	... or any of the nutjob lobbyists sending him emails. The blind parrot pasting of them that we see here every day, not just from this one blighted inmate, but from all those of a winger tendency is an exact fit. It's like there is a parallel universe and he just appears from it through a rip in the fabric of reality and then gets scared and runs for home... "MMMMUUUMMMMMMMMMMY!"

Here we go, Dave..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 15:59:58
Dave Mester Audiophile Posts: 492 Location: Chicago Joined: August 14, 2006	There is a television channel which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a person in everlasting ignorance, and that is Pox News. "Whenever the people are well informed, they can be trusted with their own government." --Thomas Jefferson

RE: but it describes him to a tee tuning in to Pox News ..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 13:10:39
tomservo Manufacturer Posts: 2518 Joined: July 4, 2002	Dave, your as humorous as you are off the mark, but at times, your at the edge of paranoia too.

"as humorous as you are off the mark": what does that mean?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 13:40:00
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28379 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	Surely humour needs to be accurate to be funny, so if you think I am inaccurate surely I can't be funny at the same time? Is it more paranoia inducing to be standing outside Winger County looking in or inside looking out?

RE: "as humorous as you are off the mark": what does that mean?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 15:20:25

tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 2518
Joined: July 4, 2002

"Surely humour needs to be accurate to be funny, so if you think I am inaccurate surely I can't be funny at the same time?"

Gosh no, what about Monty Python?

"Is it more paranoia inducing to be standing outside Winger County looking in or inside looking out?"

I would guess being outside, if it makes one actually believe there are a tenth as many websites passing things around to the workers as you often allude to.
Rather, you might be sensing America's core as some sinister movement, last breakdown i saw put America at about 36% conservative, about 40% moderate and about 20% liberal, some percentage of these folks vote.

"Gosh no, what about Monty Python?": MP was "inaccurate"? In what way?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 15:50:43

dave c
Audiophile

Posts: 28379
Location: Ferny Hills
Joined: April 17, 2000

So by your figures (unsourced) 1/3 of America describes itself as "conservative".
Rather different to the image displayed in the endless repetition of lobbyist derived opinions which leads people to the believe that to fit in they should be somewhat wingerish.
And we know that, despite their differences, Americans have a deep desire to fit in, to be conformist.
That is the message of claiming to speak for the "silent majority"... middle America...

What are "Sand Wars"? Is this another winger word to describe some foreign peoples?nt, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:50:47
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28379 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	bleep

Pse. see my response below to J-PMatt... nt., posted on November 7, 2009 at 09:08:45
feet's too big Audiophile Posts: 8863 Location: West Midlands Joined: November 22, 2002	NT.

RE: If you need such "display routines" to confirm personal patriotism, then so be it..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 07:27:40

J-PMatt@Comcast.Net
Audiophile

Posts: 4214
Location: South Jersey
Joined: April 25, 2003

but I found such glutinous self-indulgent self-congratulatory display thoroughly distasteful..."

I found a lucid and clarifing interpretation of the American Pledge of Allegiance, outstanding in helping all Americans recognize the spirit and intent of the pledge so that it's words do not become stale and lose their meaning, but instead infuse those who invoke it with an appreciation for it's intent, as well as encouraging contemplation of the responsiblity all Americans have to one another, our unique freedoms and just how this nation works.

"But then, I've always wondered just how much of a keen patriotism likely to be so inbuilt into the personalities of most folk that it would never need be questioned would actually need(!) to be obviously displayed, and if so, quite why that might be the case... :o)"

To answer that, you would need to research who Red Skelton was, what was the nature of his TV show, the times in which it was produced and what the USA was going through when that particular episode was produced.

"In the US, for whatever reason(!), an apparent need to make some obvious routine display of Disney-style "patriotism" does seem to be curiously widespread amongst that culture... :o)"

Unfortuntaely Bill, you have displayed (yet again) a profound ignorance of America and in doing so, you have (routinely) insulted the American people. Once an American leaves High School, there aren't many situations where acknowledging and sharing a public devotion to our nation is called for. Also, you make the considerable and incredibly exaggerated leap of commenting on one individual out of nations of hundreds of millions "publically displaying" his devotion to our country 50 years ago, to projecting that onto all of us 50 years later. Your own participation here at the WC where you probably have more contact with Americans than in any other circumstance of your life should clearly illustrate the opposite of your findings.

After a few years of reading your posts, your "routine displays" of negative criticism regarding any obvious and straightforward fondness for America by Americans, as well as Americans preferring American Beer (served ice cold as opposed to piss warm), American Sports (where a 7th inning stretch is preferred to a tea break) and American Movies (where determined men with normal hair speak less and act more as opposed to men in powdered wigs just sitting around gratuitously engaging in verbal masturbation) now seems more a robotic and programmed response on your part than an honest and organic reaction to something you simply don't like. Perhaps you've made things simple and easy for yourself by deciding, and apparently quite some time ago, to just not like or respect the things American people do. Perhaps it's an intellectual, political or even CULTURAL fashion statement of sorts among those who consider themselves well to do Brits to mindlessly make "glutinous self-indulgent self-congratulatory displays" of despising America. Or as we call it in America-a circle jerk.

Naturally, whilst writing this, I naturally decided that this is all I have to naturally say about this unnatural matter and have naturally decided to let you have the last word whilst I attend to domestic matters this afternoon. I hope you are enjoying your week end, and wish to pass on this tidbit that I am watching the whole of "Fawlty Towers" tonight and tomorrow night on DVD, which was given to me yesterday by of all things-an Englishman, who calls my humble nation his home and wishes to remain here, living just a few short miles from the City of Brotherly Love. I'll ask him to say hello to Billy Penn for you.

"there aren't many situations where acknowledging and sharing a public devotion to our nation is called for.", posted on November 7, 2009 at 12:31:09

castironandtubes
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Posts: 3855
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? Speak for yourself, but I disagree.

Making some kind of outward statement of "devotion" is as meaningful to the actual devotion as saying "I love you" is to a relationship (after a guy gets home from cheating on his wife). Talk is cheap.

On the other hand, taking an interest in what is going on in the country and taking an active role in shaping the direction of it is something that requires frequent attention, and much care and devotion.

Feets' verbosity aside, his comments have nothing to do with the fact that he is located somewhere else, and your dismissal of them on that account is rather weak.

Dave

You're evidently feeling a tad sensitive..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 08:21:38

feet's too big
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Posts: 8863
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I commented as a direct response to the posting as presented by Michael Samra, which implied a current topical relevance of the observations made in the 1969 recording...

I simply made an overall comment on a - to my mind decidedly curious - apparent expectation from some folk (including certain inmates?) that a person's patriotism should be prominently apparent and declared to others (and perhaps risking being targeted as not being patriotic if he or she does not?), rather than patriotism simply being a personal characteristic that could, and should, be taken as read... :o)

Whether from personal sensitivity or other motivation, you have clearly made various other patently unjustified assumptions concerning my actions and motives... Further comment from myself would naturally be inappropriate except perhaps to make the straightforward observation that whilst I certainly actively like many Americans, I feel no obligation whatsoever to like all indicated aspects of American culture... :o)

I hope you enjoyed the Fawlty Towers sketches... :o)

Bill.

RE: If you need such "display routines" to confirm personal patriotism, then so be it..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 08:05:44
jimmycj Audiophile Posts: 1042 Joined: December 6, 2004	You mean the one the republicans spat out wrongly while yet giving that moron bachman more press time the other day

RE: If you need such "display routines" to confirm personal patriotism, then so be it..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 07:58:14
tomservo Manufacturer Posts: 2518 Joined: July 4, 2002	I am watching the whole of "Fawlty Towers" Loved that show (fan of Monty python too), poor Manuel haha. Ever seen Brazil ?

Try again..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 06:43:08

bjh
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Posts: 11876
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: November 22, 2003

"But then, I've always wondered just how much of a keen patriotism likely to be so inbuilt into the personalities of most folk that it would never need be questioned would actually need(!) to be obviously displayed, and if so, quite why that might be the case... :o)"

That seems so thoroughly convoluted as to be justifiably classified as illiterate.

Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!

I sympathise if you find your attention-span to be inadequate... :o) nt., posted on November 7, 2009 at 07:00:03
feet's too big Audiophile Posts: 8863 Location: West Midlands Joined: November 22, 2002	NT.

Since you seem satisfied with your half-literate babbling I'll leave it at that. However, posted on November 7, 2009 at 08:02:55
bjh Audiophile Posts: 11876 Location: Toronto, Canada Joined: November 22, 2003	perhaps you can comment on relative merits of the tendency to public displays of patriotism by Americans v. that form of public expression common amongst the citizens of your country, public drunkenness. Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!

We can naturally only speak from our own perceptions... :o), posted on November 7, 2009 at 08:46:19

feet's too big
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Posts: 8863
Location: West Midlands
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I, and presumably other Brits, would have to think long and hard to recall the last time individuals were seen being publicly under the influence of either drink or drugs... :o)

In my case, I recall seeing a group (an "office Christmas party"?) being a tad "under the influence" about four years ago...

No doubt there will be many other instances that might equally apply in the UK or in other countries, but as to how far drink and drugs may be viewed as a particular local problem, it probably primarily depends where one happens to live and the people with whom one mixes... :o)

Do you drink much?... :o)

Bill.

You're such a transparent twit..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 09:34:45
bjh Audiophile Posts: 11876 Location: Toronto, Canada Joined: November 22, 2003	but no doubt you'd deny relying on "own perceptions". Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!

And you're such a transparently incompetent troll... :o), posted on November 7, 2009 at 09:47:54
feet's too big Audiophile Posts: 8863 Location: West Midlands Joined: November 22, 2002	Apart from noting that your perverse incompetence routinely generates a sad smile, further comment is naturally superfluous... :o) Bill.

" Apart from noting that your perverse incompetence routinely generates a sad smile" Well yeah ..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 10:43:57
bjh Audiophile Posts: 11876 Location: Toronto, Canada Joined: November 22, 2003	but with Wendy and Sox both absent I guess that explains the departure from routine. LOL Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!

Bearing in mind the Queensland and NSW floods I naturally hope for confirmation that our Oz inmates are OK..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:01:53
feet's too big Audiophile Posts: 8863 Location: West Midlands Joined: November 22, 2002	Quite how you might suppose that such unrelated matters might significantly influence perceptions and forum responses to other inmates only you are likely to be able to hazard some sort of informed suggestion... :o) Keep taking the tablets... They may eventually generate at least some sort of improvement... :o) Bill.

Errrr... if there are QLD floods, they haven't told us!, posted on November 7, 2009 at 12:26:43
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28379 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	NSW is copping it and Soxie seems to have gone quiet...

Glad to hear that you are OK..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 13:52:00
feet's too big Audiophile Posts: 8863 Location: West Midlands Joined: November 22, 2002	I was sure that a report read yesterday mentioned Queensland and NSW as being affected, but if Queensland is unaffected then I'm naturally delighted... Soxie's continued silence remains somewhat unsettling... Bill.

As fra as I am aware it hasn't rained on my parade for several days, posted on November 7, 2009 at 14:49:17

dave c
Audiophile

Posts: 28379
Location: Ferny Hills
Joined: April 17, 2000

There is something moving in off the ocean and the forecast is for rain later today.
Down south (sort off... maybe 400km/250 miles) they are having all sorts of trouble.
As we are in the middle stages of spring...ok, it's the 3rd month of spring... we are moving into the wet season.
Water restrictions will, with luck, come off and hopefully the rain will be spread out and not cause too much flooding.
You will probably have noticed over the past few years we are flipflopping from drought to flood within a few hundred kilometres on a regular basis.
We need a bit of a socialised water supply to even things out whilst leaving something in the rivers.
Weather change we can believe in!

RE: If you need such "display routines" to confirm personal patriotism, then so be it..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 04:54:05
Cleantimestream Audiophile Posts: 1516 Location: Kentucky Joined: June 30, 2005	"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain, Notebook, 1904 "The Sound of One Hand Clapping is Crashing by Design" HKM

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