Opium, Rape and the American Way
216.209.33.106 |
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| Posted on November 2, 2009 at 09:14:07 | ||
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Posts: 11876
Location: Toronto, Canada Joined: November 22, 2003 |
OK, a provocative title to be certain, but who would reasonably argue that Afghanistan is better off now than before the US invasion? It's an absolute mess, rotten to the core, now an indisputable narco-state (Poppystan). Reflexively I tend to think that a complete withdrawal (which won't happen anyway) would be irresponsible, that the US and western nations have an obligation to clean up the mess first. However sober reflection suggest that the least of all possible evils facing Afganistan people *would be* a complete removal of the invaders since their presence only prolongs the complete fuck up.
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| it seems they have become capitalists...., posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:01:29 | |
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Posts: 28425
Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000 |
... and decided to exploit their resources.
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| The Taliban were forced to finance their efforts against the USA., posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:40:44 | |
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Posts: 13477
Location: Fort Worth, TX Joined: October 25, 2000 Contributor Since: April 4, 2002 |
They were well underway to eradicate Opium but the USA kicked their butts for a couple of years while they figured out they needed to generate cash flow to buy arms to fight the US troops.
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| so the actions of the USA have directly increased opium production..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 12:41:04 | |
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Posts: 28425
Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000 |
... which feeds into international armaments trading. Quelle surprise!
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| They tax production..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 19:50:46 | |
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Posts: 11876
Location: Toronto, Canada Joined: November 22, 2003 |
After all they *are* the government in much of the country.
Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
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| what is different is US policy has added to gun/drug cartel profits, posted on November 2, 2009 at 12:12:46 | |
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Posts: 28425
Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000 |
And to have placed at least the Taliban and probably Al Qa'ida closer to the centre of those businesses. Once more we see the close relationship between the interests of the world's most powerful nation and the drug cartels. Still that's just a coincidence, isn't it?
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| Yes, it's a big mess...., posted on November 2, 2009 at 10:38:00 | |
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Posts: 15946
Location: SF Bay Area Joined: April 22, 2003 Contributor Since: December 28, 2003 |
...but it's been that way for many years and will probably always be. A norco state run by tribal warlords and their followers. There is really no political infrastructure there for us to support. The president is a corrupt figurehead. The best we can do is help them defend the population centers from the Taliban while they develop their own military and police. Otherwise we should withdraw - there is no way to win, as the Russians and all those before them discovered.
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| If we withdraw............, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:11:20 | |
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Posts: 1195
Location: OKLAHOMA Joined: May 22, 2002 |
......what are we supposed to do, negotiate with them on a twitter page???.......barbaric people don't give a flip about negotiating........Taliban and Al Quaeda are just like termites........you can wipe out a large group of them in certain areas, but they always pop up somewhere else next year. I don't think you could possibly embargo or sanction them into giving up.......all sanctions would do is hurt the innocent people of the country........we might slow down their networking from time to time, but I don't think it can ever be totally stopped......why not try pulling out and sit out on the Mediterranean and the Persian Gulf and monitor their activities remotely with satellites and embedded spies, then make strategic air strikes with our unmanned drones from time to time....Let's make them wonder where we are for a while and make sneak attacks when they're not expecting it...you know, get down on their level somewhat....couldn't be any worse than what it is now.....if we provoke them into doing something stupid, make 'em pay for it big time. They can match up with our current ground forces pretty well as it stands now, but they are NO match for our air power. (just throwing this out there for debate!)
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| Negotiate with whom?, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:57:58 | |
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Posts: 15946
Location: SF Bay Area Joined: April 22, 2003 Contributor Since: December 28, 2003 |
...withdrawal doesn't require negotiation. Like I said, we should leave a force there to help defend their population centers until they can defend themselves, but leave the rest to the warlords and the Taliban. Any othere strategy, includeing keeping the same forces there or putting in more troops will result in many more American deaths. We've lost way to many brave Americans in Iraq and there already because of Bush's follies. The problem with umanned drones is they kill too many innocetn people. As Hillary found out in Pakistan - they asked her which was worse, innocents killed by by a terrorist bomb or by an American drone. They said they saw no difference.
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| Even leaving a garrison will result in American deaths., posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:56:22 | |
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Posts: 13477
Location: Fort Worth, TX Joined: October 25, 2000 Contributor Since: April 4, 2002 |
We've essentially ceded the countryside anyway. Let the Afghans defend themselves; just make sure the rival warlords are at least as well equipped as the Taliban. I'm not sure what else we can do, unless the Karzai government all of a sudden has the makings of a legitimate and stable government with a worthwhile police and Army. Dubya had 6 years to make this happen and nothing came of it. What do you suppose Obama might do differently to get a different result ?
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| \\\I'm not sure what else we can do/// ~ Other than withdraw the USofA doesn’t “NEED” to do anything there., posted on November 2, 2009 at 21:27:08 | |
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Posts: 12353
Location: Aussie (New South Wales) Joined: August 10, 2004 |
`
Smile Sox 
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| W wasted the 6 years here because he was focused on Iraq - now it's a real mess...(nt), posted on November 2, 2009 at 19:01:54 | |
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Posts: 15946
Location: SF Bay Area Joined: April 22, 2003 Contributor Since: December 28, 2003 |
(nt)
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| "provoke them into doing something stupid": like fly planes into buildings?, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:24:05 | |
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Posts: 28425
Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000 |
As for "make them pay for it big time", isn't that what you have been trying to do for years? If your air power is so great why not fly your remote drones into caves and blow them out? Because you CAN'T do it, that's why. As for them wondering where you are... ;-)))
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| Maybe the only thing which will work is massive retaliation..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:40:04 | |
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Posts: 13477
Location: Fort Worth, TX Joined: October 25, 2000 Contributor Since: April 4, 2002 |
...for any attack thought to be initiated/condoned in Afghanistan. E.g. they shoot up a shopping mall in the USA, We carpetbomb any number of "military" sites and/or likely location of leadership sites in Afghanistan.
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| when was the last time they shot up a mall in the USA?, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:42:41 | |
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Posts: 28425
Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000 |
If you could do it, and, in fact, if there were such things as "military" sites, you would have done it long ago. I would have thought that invading 2 countries was a pretty massive retaliation, myself...
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| RE: when was the last time they shot up a mall in the USA?, posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:54:40 | |
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Posts: 6376
Location: San Francisco Joined: July 8, 2003 Contributor Since: January 28, 2004 |
"Massive"; not to be confused with "effective", but possibly with "botched". “ Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination. ” -Michael McClure
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| Call it the "Israeli" solution; Massive retaliation not commenserate with original "provocation". nt, posted on November 2, 2009 at 18:32:21 | |
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Posts: 13477
Location: Fort Worth, TX Joined: October 25, 2000 Contributor Since: April 4, 2002 |
.
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| Considering the fact that Hitler was a great admirer of the British you should go to the source.., posted on November 3, 2009 at 17:58:32 | |
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Posts: 2582
Location: North Jersey Joined: September 25, 2003 |
Hitler patterned his school system and empire building on the British system. He thought that they had the best system of population control. It was based on the lowest common denominator. Read Mein Kampf. Therefore, although your comment was silly you could base more on British than Israeli. The British were relentless in their attack on civilians and yet they built a statue dedicated to "Bomber" Harris. Do you know that you use the word "Nazi" more than any other poster? I'll give you the benefit of doubt and allow that you are shooting for shock value but it is still offensive.
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| ah, one more thing Israel took from the nazis..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 12:43:08 | |
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Posts: 28425
Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000 |
... along with the camps... ;-(
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| Why are we there?...., posted on November 2, 2009 at 12:39:10 | |
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Posts: 4834
Location: No. California Joined: December 26, 2003 |
At first, it appeared to be that the country that could be used for pipelines to get at Asianic oil. But really, who would want to run a pipeline through such an unstable and ungovernable country? We really have no business being there at all.
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| "the country that could be used for pipelines to get at Asianic oil": cynic, posted on November 2, 2009 at 12:49:36 | |
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Posts: 28425
Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000 |
Who could believe the USA would go to war to improve its oil supply???
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| I know, we're there because we don't like the way they treat their women ~t, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:47:07 | |
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Posts: 4834
Location: No. California Joined: December 26, 2003 |
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| Maybe it's for "democracy". nt, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:48:18 | |
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Posts: 28425
Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000 |
bleep
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| Like when the Bankers decide the fate of the country ~t, posted on November 2, 2009 at 14:10:13 | |
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Posts: 4834
Location: No. California Joined: December 26, 2003 |
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| "Otherwise we should withdraw - there is no way to win, as the Russians and all those before them discovered", posted on November 2, 2009 at 11:44:18 | |
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Posts: 1874
Location: NE Illinois Joined: October 30, 2002 Contributor Since: February 10, 2009 |
I think getting out is the best and only plausible option. We can send in more troops but what will that really do. Karzai is not the man the US government wanted in place yet he will be unless he's assassinated. Things aren't changing for the better with us there and I don't see them changing if we stay. It's time to cut our losses and get out. It's easy enough to monitor certain things and if new terroist camps are set up we have ways of destroying them without having 50,000 troops there. If anything, keep a presence at the Pakistani border.
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| Pakistan is the more important place for us to be...(nt), posted on November 2, 2009 at 11:47:49 | |
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Posts: 15946
Location: SF Bay Area Joined: April 22, 2003 Contributor Since: December 28, 2003 |
(nt)
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| Pakistanis don't want us there...., posted on November 2, 2009 at 12:18:04 | |
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Posts: 13477
Location: Fort Worth, TX Joined: October 25, 2000 Contributor Since: April 4, 2002 |
We might have caught Bin Laden if they had given us permission to cross the borders. As it is, maybe the best solution is withdraw completely "renting" bases in Usbekistan for the occasional napalming of AL Queda bases wherever they become obvious in Afghanistan.
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| No they don't but they have two things that demand our presence..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:09:55 | |
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Posts: 15946
Location: SF Bay Area Joined: April 22, 2003 Contributor Since: December 28, 2003 |
1. al Quaida is here, not in Afghanistan. 2. nukes we need to contain.
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| oh great, invaduing ANOTHER country..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 12:15:01 | |
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Posts: 28425
Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000 |
... or at least getting involved in fighting a "war" in another country. I guess it's still the old if the only tool you have is a hammer kind of thing. Lucky your country isn't run for the benefit of the armaments industry then or else you could really get into a pickle...
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