Who says the American auto industry and Detroit won't recover?

R E: But all I see from the big three on tv is -, posted on November 2, 2009 at 19:34:11
painter27 Audiophile Posts: 1503 Location: wi. Joined: January 7, 2003	Big pickups.

Certainly not I, posted on November 2, 2009 at 09:19:43
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	That doesn't change the fact that they have some work to do to bring their product line up to world standards. rw

There working on it and thats what matters., posted on November 2, 2009 at 09:39:29
Michael Samra Dealer Posts: 13119 Location: saginaw michigan Joined: January 30, 2005 Contributor Since: June 24, 2005	This news today makes me cheer because 4k dollars worth of Ford stock at 37 cents a share and now she is rolling.Of course its probably the only stock climbing but I'll take it. If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.

Leave it to these guys to "help out", posted on November 2, 2009 at 10:04:41
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	UAW balking rw

I wonder how many nutjobs will agree with you without reading the article which contradicts your claim?, posted on November 2, 2009 at 12:57:41
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	Whatever the answer, it won't be a surprise. It seems odd that you want some kind of control over ordinary people maiing decisions and to have a form of government (presumably) interference to have all manufacturers treated equally by the unions. Seems... dare I say it... North Korean in its centralisation. How curious are the contradictions of the greater crested wingnut (wingnuticus ordinaire).

You are correct Ralf. This is what we don't need., posted on November 2, 2009 at 12:56:05
Michael Samra Dealer Posts: 13119 Location: saginaw michigan Joined: January 30, 2005 Contributor Since: June 24, 2005	The union may throw a wrench in the whole thing..You will notice Ford made money everywhere and the North American Operations broke even. I hope they flush the UAW as they are going to keep jobs out of America, Period!! If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.

While Ford didn't go bankrupt, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:51:42
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	they've been bleeding cash big time for quite a while. Such can only last for so long. The rank and file UAW grunts aren't thinking with their heads. rw

RE: While Ford didn't go bankrupt, posted on November 2, 2009 at 14:46:02

Michael Samra
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Ralf
They better start thinking with their heads because most Honda and Toyota plants that build cars in the the US are located guess where??? In right to work states with no union and the workers couldn't be happier.
They showed a recent picture of a Ford plant and its workers assembling the new Taurus and Lincoln and Merc and guess where its located!! CHEEECAGO MON!!!
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.

Honda has ZERO problem, posted on November 2, 2009 at 14:54:43
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	finding plenty of happy, well paid workers in Ohio and Alabama. The difference is that ALL of their pay goes to them. rw

RE: Honda has ZERO problem, posted on November 3, 2009 at 16:23:13

Michael Samra
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Ralf
It makes a big difference when you get to keep your paycheck as opposed to giving it to a bunch of jackasses that claim to be on your side when they are really out taking a mafia portion of your paycheck for themselves.Hello UAW!!
The unions had their purpose at one time but they have gotten abusive.The truth is, we have enough laws in effect that if you lose your job unfairly or are mistreated,there are agencies and people that will come to your defense and you don't have to pay big union dues either especially in corporate america as they don't bad publicity.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.

RE: Honda has ZERO problem, posted on November 3, 2009 at 17:54:12

Tom Brennan
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RE: Honda has ZERO problem, posted on November 3, 2009 at 18:10:24

Michael Samra
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The problem with your thinking Mike is that the people at Honda wouldn't make as much money as they do if not for the existence of the union and the threat it poses to organize the Honda workers if Honda doesn't ante up. Take away the union and you take away Honda's incentive to pay as well as it does.

Tom
That is one way to look at it but,Henry Ford was paying 5 dollar a day wages and when the union came,it dropped to three. The engineers never had a union and they seemed to do ok.My friend is a engineer from GM and he gets 4100 a month just in pension..Of course he had 38 years in but still its dam good.
Now Ralf does bring up a good point in that,the high wages the union gets are translating to jobs going to cheaper markets because it putting prices out of sight on american goods..Do I think americans should work for 3 dollars a day? Hell NO!! I do not want to see the unions pricing American industrial into oblivion.Its also operating costs.Big business can't operate in the US anymore without having their hands tied with regulations and class action law suits over Bull Shit.

If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.

RE: Honda has ZERO problem, posted on November 3, 2009 at 23:25:25

Tom Brennan
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Tie off Mike, you're drifting. First unions, then overseas production then lawsuits.

My father was an engineer in the car business and was very pro union because the unions set the bar for wages and conditions---the employers had to pay engineers more than UAW production guys got and that kept wages and conditions for engineers good.

Jobs are going to cheaper wage countries regardless of whether they are union jobs or not; NO American, union or non union can work as cheaply as a Chinese one. Look at the furniture business. First it moved from union Michigan to non union North Carolina. Now it's moving from North Carolina to China. That would lead to the conclusion that during the window in which certain jobs are in this country the workers should get as much as they can before the inevitable move to Asia or Mexico.

Note that the European car business is haevily unionized and seems to be doing OK. Though the Germans like the American south because they can build cars there with a cheap, subservient work force. Funny that the Germans look at us the way we look at Mexico.

RE: Honda has ZERO problem, posted on November 4, 2009 at 00:16:33

Michael Samra
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Tom
I should reinstate my position. I am against the unions of the 70s and 80s as they were more concerned with new contracts and what they could get out of GM,then building good cars..This was also true of management but now,things are changing. I don't think they need the union anymore.Jobs in the auto industry are becoming more and more skilled and they can't replace workers just by snapping their fingers.
Now,I still believe that corporate america is over regulated and swamped with frivolous law suits and this in turn causes corporate america to relocate to more business friendly environments.
Should the big three die, you may see the Japanese manufacturers move out of the US because they will no longer have competition and what incentive would the japanese have to stay here?
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.

You make a great case, posted on November 3, 2009 at 18:10:18
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	for the inflated costs created by unions. Point noted. rw

RE: You make a great case, posted on November 3, 2009 at 23:15:06

Tom Brennan
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Brennan's Law of Wages #1-----My raise is good for the economy, your raise causes inflation.

Brennan's Law of Wages #2-----I'm overworked, you're overpaid.

Brennan's Law of Wages #3-----My raise is the result of merit, your raise is the result of greed.

Brennan's Law of Wages #4----More money for white collar workers is Capitalism, more money for blue collar workers is Communism.

Listen Estat, like any other player in the market a union exists to increase what it takes in. My union was good at what it did and I made good money and had good conditions. And I'm not gonna apologize for that. Nor do I think I should have worked for less. Wages and conditions are bargained for and the contractors are adults and certainly able and willing to guard their own interests, I know, I was on the bargaining committee.

That's not my position on unions, but, posted on November 3, 2009 at 16:32:33
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	in this case, the Ford workers are just not looking very far down the road. rw

so are you now changing to being against unions or do they just not pay tazx?, posted on November 2, 2009 at 15:08:09
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	BY the way, who negotiates wage levels. I once knew a total wingnut and she once said she didn't know why anyone needed a union as if you had unions, management offered low and unions bid high and eventually they came to an agreement, but if you didn't have unions, management just offered the right amount straight off and everyone went away happy. I guess she found a playmate in you. ;-)

Ask any one of the 35,000 NA Honda associates, posted on November 2, 2009 at 15:52:15
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	those questions. It doesn't involve me at all. rw

RE: Ask any one of the 35,000 NA Honda associates, posted on November 2, 2009 at 23:24:48

Tom Brennan
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Those are employees not "associates". You're talking like a corporate PR man.

Wages in non union plants are only high when the employers fear being organized as they do in Ohio. Wages are lower in non union car plants in the deep south than they are at the Honda plant in Ohio, southern workers generally being more servile than northern ones and the southern workers with the most enterprise and self respect often moving north or finding higher paying unionized work in the south.

Often the best and brightest find high paying unionized work in the trades and then as often as possible boom out up north for the higher wages.

I'm talking, posted on November 3, 2009 at 06:10:24
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	Those are employees not "associates". like W. Edwards Deming, whose postwar manufacturing methods that directly involved feedback from workers later called Total Quality Management were embraced by Tokyo and given the finger by Detroit. rw

RE: I'm talking, posted on November 3, 2009 at 17:56:24
Tom Brennan Audiophile Posts: 5058 Joined: January 2, 2000	Then Deming was a bit of a bullshit artist himself.

Absolutely!, posted on November 3, 2009 at 18:04:52
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	process statisticians are just charlatans. I guess that explains why our manufacturing base is SO much stronger than the Japanese. Wait a sec? Is that true? rw

RE: Absolutely!, posted on November 3, 2009 at 23:27:34
Tom Brennan Audiophile Posts: 5058 Joined: January 2, 2000	"process statisticians are just charlatans" Are they? I couldn't say. But I can say that calling employees "associates" is an example of pure bullshit.

Hush up everyone, he's talking... ;-))) nt, posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:54:26
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	bleep

"It doesn't involve me at all": are you RELATED to J-PM? ;-) nt, posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:27:25
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	bleep

Well, if YOU are related, then ask them! -nt, posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:49:08
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	rw

How many J-PMs can you see? One is more than enough for most of us!, posted on November 3, 2009 at 12:47:55
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	I am not sure if you are describing an eyesight problem or a general mental confusion, but perhaps you should consult your GP, if you can afford it. If not. we could always have a whip round to help you out. Well, the liberals can... obviously out in Winger County every individual is huddled down trying to protect his/her money from the socialist revolution. ;-)))

Maybe all that, posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:12:18
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	makes sense to the voices in your head. :) rw

so now you can hear "voices in your(my) head"?, posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:53:33
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	So it's double vision and auditory hallucinations is it? "But doctor what does it mean?" "I have made my diagnosis; you have suffered an accident and run head first into reality."

Exactly the opposite, posted on November 3, 2009 at 14:02:11
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	your incoherent ramblings make no sense. Maybe to someone, but not to moi. :) rw

"Exactly the opposite": so you have run AWAY from reality? That COULD explain a lot! ;-) nt, posted on November 3, 2009 at 14:05:31
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	bleep

your hatred for ordinary Americans is clear to all., posted on November 2, 2009 at 12:17:49
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	Presumably fuelled by your sworn allegiance to the interests of any and every corporation. What a laughable position to take up; that any attempt by labour to organise must be detrimental to industry. Brainwashed? You'd have to find the brain first.

Whatever doofus, posted on November 2, 2009 at 12:35:53
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	"Ford sought the deal to bring its labor costs in line with Detroit rivals Chrysler Group LLC and General Motors Co., both of which won concessions from the union as they headed into bankruptcy protection earlier this year. Under pattern bargaining, the three automakers usually match pay, benefits and other contract provisions." Translation: parity with the other two companies. rw

RE: Whatever doofus, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:01:15
Michael Samra Dealer Posts: 13119 Location: saginaw michigan Joined: January 30, 2005 Contributor Since: June 24, 2005	Ralf I have no problem with labor but,I do have a problem with greed whether it organized labor or corporate. Ford should get the same concessions that GM and Chrysler got from their union. If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.

I don't understand UAW's objection to parity -nt, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:17:00
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	rw

"The UAW and Ford agreed to the contract changes": could you once try reading your own posts? nt, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:19:11
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	bleep

What eludes your comprehension, posted on November 2, 2009 at 15:03:19
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	is that the rank and file that must agree to the terms. Duh! Instead, they "overwhelmingly rejected" the contract changes accepted by management. That's why the story is news. Can't figure that out, Sherlock? Do you understand that there is a problem here? The clueless workers may find themselves on the street. rw

why you wanted to write an anti-union post, posted on November 2, 2009 at 15:09:26

dave c
Audiophile

Posts: 28383
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Joined: April 17, 2000

So keep up the work.
It's funny to watch.
Can you read your own heading above?
"I don't understand UAW's objection to parity"
Can you read that?
Do you know what it means?
Do you know what "UAW" is?
It means you have got caught out again, misreading an email from winger central.
really, do they have to rely on you to make sense of stuff before you copy/paste it?
Truthfully, mate, give up now, it's stopped being funny.
Any more spinning around will just make you look sad.
;-)))

The auto workers can vote however they please, posted on November 3, 2009 at 07:01:38

E-Stat
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since their management has zero say in the final outcome. They need to consider the implications of their decisions.

Canadian plants

"Then, all of a sudden, it's cheaper to build cars in Canada. I've got to believe that at some point in the future when Ford's trying to determine whether it should put a car in a plant in the U.S. or Canada, Canada's going to get the nod because it's going to have lower costs," said McElroy.

"Ford is now going to have the highest labor cost in the industry, plus the highest debt cost in the industry. That is going to affect the company negatively going forward," McElroy said.

The UAW membership controls their own fate. Perhaps right in the ditch.

rw

and those poor ol' managers are just so hard done to: AMerican efficiency at its finest!, posted on November 3, 2009 at 12:50:38
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	How much of your country do you dislike? You reckon the workers don't care enough for the company and are selfishly short sighted and management is completely ineffectual. OK.

"are just so hard done to", posted on November 3, 2009 at 13:42:17

E-Stat
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What exactly does that mean in drunken Australian?

How much of your country do you dislike?

Hmmm. That's hard to say with over 1.9 billion acres of land area. One percent? Two? I really don't like driving around Chicago or the greater New York City area. Both have too many tolls, poor roads and too much traffic. Getting around Orange County in CA is pretty difficult, too. I suspect I wouldn't be very happy in Fargo, ND either.

rw

they say ignorance is bliss so I suspect you may have a beatific smile on your face, posted on November 3, 2009 at 14:04:20

dave c
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Posts: 28383
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If you can't understand my post I will try to put it in simplified Merican English for you. Are you sitting comfortably?
Good.
The management of the company, according to your post, is incapable of managing it. They are trampled underfoot by the employees who are running amok in the factories.
This probably stems from not reading the article originally posted.
In this article it is spelled out that the other companies, with which Ford wanted parity, were in fact the ones that had changed in that the unions had agreed concessions to help avoid bankruptcy for those other companies.
As Ford was apparently in much better financial shape, the workers didn't want to make those same concessions.
Parity?
Hmmmm...
The "workers weren't convinced they should make more concessions, since Ford avoided bankruptcy and is considered healthier than its rivals"
Or did I mistake your post and you WANTED me to write in "drunken Australian"?
Perhaps to give you a better chance to outwit me... hang on.... to give you A chance to outwit me... yes sounds more accurate!
Now, can you blow into this tube sir?
;-)

So what does "beatific" mean in drunken Australian?, posted on November 3, 2009 at 14:21:10

E-Stat
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Is that a reference to a Michael Jackson song?

The management of the company, according to your post, is incapable of managing it. They are trampled underfoot by the employees who are running amok in the factories.

As usual, you are off into the weeds with bizarre conclusions unsupported by my comments. I'll make this simple for you. Go back to my post where I linked to the story where the quotes were made by John McElroy, a long time auto journalist for Autoline. Click on the video and listen to the expert commentary. I agree with his assessment that the decision made by the thousands of auto workers may well cause Ford to respond in ways that will not benefit them (i.e. the UAW auto workers). Ford management would be fine shifting more production to Canada. When the CAW agreed to the same plan that the UAW membership "overwhelmingly rejected", Ford agreed that they would always provide more production capacity in Canada than the sales there would require. The UAW's loss can be very easily converted to be the CAW's gain. Especially since Ford closed one Canadian plant, but could easily reopen it if necessary. If the UAW wants to play hard ball, then Ford will just smile and move production elsewhere. UAW's management (Gettlefinger) knows all of that (especially since he was chewed out big time last year by Congress) which is why he approved the Ford agreement. AS YOU SHOULD KNOW BY NOW, his decision is irrelevant in the grand scheme. It means nothing. It is not binding in any way. It is the rank and file grunts who ultimately must approve contracts and don't understand the big picture. Just like you!

"If the UAW wants to play hard ball": the UAW agreed the concessions... PLEASE read your own post, posted on November 3, 2009 at 14:39:26
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	Those workers sure need to be beaten down to keep them keen, don't they? If you keep flippy flopping between accusing the workers and the union it is little surprise you keep confusing yourself. ;-)

The auto workers have two choices, posted on November 3, 2009 at 15:50:28

E-Stat
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1. They can accept reality. Like the GM workers did. Like the Chrysler workers did. Like all of the Canadian auto workers did
2. Not accept reality. That appears to be their response.

...flippy flopping between accusing the workers and the union

Dave, The workers ARE the union. Ask Tom Brennan if he thinks that his boss(es) ARE the union. Gettlefinger, aka UAW management, can only make recommendations. He gets it, but is powerless to make the final decision. Do you understand that the union bosses CANNOT change a contract without approval from the tens of thousands of members? This is not in any way like corporate management. The story has ALWAYS been about the union. The union is the auto workers themselves. It is they who don't get it. They hold their own destiny. From the looks of it, they will likely not like the results of the choice they've made.

It is sad to see when folks make poor choices which do not benefit them overall in the long run.

so now it's back to the workers not the union, is it?, posted on November 3, 2009 at 15:59:16
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	The way you bandy those labels around is like a drunken sailor waving money in a whorehouse. Can you confirm that in your opinion Ford is not in a better financial state than the other car manufacturers? Or do you just think ordinary workers should accept lower wages anyway?

Why is so hard for you to understand, posted on November 3, 2009 at 16:26:50

E-Stat
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that the workers ARE the union? They are one in the same. The guys at the top of the UAW can shake hands with GM, Ford, and Chrysler brass and say whatever they want to - with ZERO power to enact contract changes. Zilch. Nada. Not a f**king thing. Are you that stupid to not grasp that concept? Hmmmm. Ok, bad choice. We know that to be the case. Well, let me rephrase that. Even with someone as clueless as you, surely you can comprehend that fact. Maybe not. You frequently underwhelm me with your total inability to understand the big pictures.

Can you confirm that in your opinion Ford is not in a better financial state than the other car manufacturers?

Not at all. Whereas GM and Chrysler got their asses bailed out, Ford is running on borrowed time and money. They hold $10B worth of debt.

Or do you just think ordinary workers should accept lower wages anyway?

It is entirely their choice as to whether or not they want short term gains or long term prosperity.

rw

so every Ford employee is in the UAW are they?, posted on November 3, 2009 at 18:10:46
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	Quickly now... think... are you being out manoeuvred again...?

You are utterly incapable, posted on November 3, 2009 at 18:22:14
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	of understanding the story of the union members who rejected the offer recommended by the UAW leadership. No surprise at all. What next? Are you going to argue some other completely irrelevant detail like the color of the shoelaces used by the workers? There is no question that you win the prize for the most ignorant poster on AA. rw

"There is no question that you win the prize for the most ignorant poster on AA.": votes please, posted on November 3, 2009 at 19:48:35
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	So please explain how you suddenly have become an expert on union affairs and car manufacturing/ Is it in the same way as your expertise on climate sciences and all matter world politics? By email. And you forgot to answer my questions.

So no votes in agreement. E-Stat ;-) nt, posted on November 4, 2009 at 03:20:24
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	bleep

UAW membership 41,000 out of 87,000 Ford employees, posted on November 3, 2009 at 18:17:45
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	As close as I can find. I can't find these figures in the same place and as the size of the labour force has been dropping it's tricky to find this stuff. Anyone got a lead on a definitive answer because it looks like the UAW is nowhere near representing the workforce of Ford. I assume you know the answers do you?

OK, you can't read:"The UAW and Ford agreed to the contract changes", posted on November 2, 2009 at 12:56:00

dave c
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Posts: 28383
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Do you have a learning disorder, you don't actually read this crap you are sent or do you really think everyone else will just take your word for it/
Whichever it is it seems that once again a wingnut has been found out.
What a joke.
If you would like to discuss the local problems/reasons why the ordinary membership of the union rejected the deal then go ahead, but if you want to just mouth off, try singing in the shower

You must be reading a different article than I, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:15:07
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	The UAW and Ford agreed to the contract changes You must be reading a different article than I. Here's the first line of the linked story: "Ford Motor Co. workers have overwhelmingly rejected contract changes that would have allowed the automaker to cut labor costs, leaving Ford at a disadvantage to its Detroit rivals as it continues its struggle to return to profitability." rw

now try to understand the words: it may take a while, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:18:08
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	Can't you find the words I quoted? Do you remember the heading you used in your OP? Why are you attempting to say the union wouldn't agree? Is it just what you have been told to say? What a bloody joke. Is there any attempt to understand what you are posting or is it just copy/paste?

You need to slow down and put the bong down, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:28:06
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	1. "These guys" to which I referred are the UAW members, not UAW management. 2. Ford and the UAW management agreed to contract changes, but "but Ford workers needed to ratify them." 3. Back to the opening sentence Einstein "Ford Motor Co. workers have overwhelmingly rejected contract changes" Great brain fart to start the week, Dave. :) rw

your link was titled "UAW balking": squirming now is just embarrassing so don't bother, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:37:12

dave c
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Posts: 28383
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It seems you want to sat that the only thing wrong with Ford is the workers.
OK.
Trying to say I didn't read that is typical, but disappointing of you.
Own up, man, you tried it on and got caught out out... again.
Bloody hell, is this the best you can manage?
Are you now suggesting that what America needs is a strong union base that forces workers all over the country working for different corporations to all have the same wages?
Really?
When does your plane for NK leave?
Laugh?
I nearly bought a round!

Nice to see that after your holiday, you have come back with all the style, wit and intelligence we have come to expect.
;-)

What I suggest, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:42:26

E-Stat
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is that Ford workers should continue the long standing procedure of accepting the same contract arrangements as their counterparts at Chrysler and GM.

edit: I consider the Union of Auto Workers to be - well the auto workers, not management. It was the collection of workers (without whom the union would not exist) who rejected the offer.

do you mean there is an agreed conspiracy to have the same conditions everywhere?, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:44:39

dave c
Audiophile

Posts: 28383
Location: Ferny Hills
Joined: April 17, 2000

Why hasn't anyone brought it up before?
How did you find out?
So you do definitely approve of the idea of centralised control, of enforced collective bargaining?
Interesting.
Especially as most right wingers have it down on the list of things that must be done away with.

What happened to "free markets"?
Or are they only approved of when they are in the interests of whichever corporation or industry you are spruiking?

The term used by the union is, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:49:52
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	called "pattern bargaining". Would you read the entire article in the attempt to understand all the nuances of the situation? "Under pattern bargaining, the three automakers usually match pay, benefits and other contract provisions." So you do definitely approve of the idea of centralised control? Do I "definitely approve" of union bargaining policies? Are you kidding? :) rw

can you spot the contradiction in that post?, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:55:20
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	You have 5 minutes to read it and another 5 to write your answer. You may start now...

Have a nice psychedelic trip, Dave! -nt, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:56:20
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 9839 Location: Central boonies Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	rw

I'll put you down as a spoiled paper... and give you 4% for spelling your name correctly, posted on November 2, 2009 at 14:00:33
dave c Audiophile Posts: 28383 Location: Ferny Hills Joined: April 17, 2000	At least I will assume that is correct.

Ford is pretty strong..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 07:55:21

pretzel_logic
Audiophile

Posts: 1868
Location: NE Illinois
Joined: October 30, 2002
Contributor
Since: February 10, 2009

They have some good cars, a great truck, and are and have been moving in the right direction. It seems they were making changes for the better for the past few years, unlike GM which I still see as a dinosaur.

Cash for clunkers certainly helped but I see Ford as being a good company for years to come. Whether or not the next few quarters stay profitable like the last is anyones guess. The economy is still in a shambles!

Well, we paid for the profit with Cash for Clunkers., posted on November 2, 2009 at 07:27:42
Chris O Audiophile Posts: 3060 Location: Memphis, TN Joined: March 22, 2002	Let's hope Q4 shows similar results. ___ Long Live Dr.Gizmo

I'm not saying they will or they won't, but ..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 07:15:30

Quadzilla
Audiophile

Posts: 1548
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Joined: July 31, 2003

I do have a healthy scepticism for American corporate financial reporting of late. I did like the looks of Enron's (or insert any one of a number of corporations) books a few years ago.

Favourable earnings are the best way to shore up your stock price ... and that is the best way for executives to maximize their stock options before they bail out the back door. Not accusing Ford, I am just sayin' ...

Prehistoric 4-Channel Lizard

Ford has always been an Iconic wonder that resurrects iteself, posted on November 2, 2009 at 09:43:18

Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 13119
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
Contributor
Since: June 24, 2005

from near death on a quarter century basis. They did it in 1949 and they did it in the early 60s after the so called Edsel fiasco and then in the early 80s and now in 2009..Go Go BLUE!! Oval that is!!
Also,Ford has gotten all favorable press and news for the last year and you had Toyota with several world wide recalls and that sort of leveled the playing field somewhat in people's minds thinking gee,all cars screw up so why not maybe give another brand a chance..Of course you have the fact that they didn't need a dollar's worth of assistance and it all adds up to success for Ford.
We have to start believing in ourselves as a nation as far as manufacturing goes. Europe buys tons of american branded vehicles as well as china and australia and when I think how they have confidence in our vehicles and we don't,that won't exactly bode well when we are trying to resurrect the US economy..I know GM is making great gains also and I hope the big three will rise to the occasion once again and show the world,we are iconic and we do build the best.
Now,the next thing we have to do is burn down Walmart. Any takers here LOL.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.

RE: Ford has always been an Iconic wonder that resurrects iteself, posted on November 2, 2009 at 10:38:16
Quadzilla Audiophile Posts: 1548 Location: Southwestern Ontario Joined: July 31, 2003	You might be right, but it isn't a stretch to think that the American auto industry will end up like televisions, cameras, most electronics, most clothing, children's toys ... American hegemony is no more. Sorry. Prehistoric 4-Channel Lizard

it isn't a stretch to think that the American auto industry will end up like televisions, cameras, most elect, posted on November 3, 2009 at 18:22:20

Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 13119
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
Contributor
Since: June 24, 2005

I hear ya and thats precisely why I never bought the quality thing in recent years why american vehicles weren't selling..The US always built excellent TVS and Stereos and other electronics and yet,people still quit buying american..Our american trucks always outsold everyone else and thats why they were the number one selling vehicle for 27 years straight. It wasn't until this year that a car outsold a truck and that was short lived.
If the power supply waveform isn't pretty,neither is the sound in most cases.

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Who says the American auto industry and Detroit won't recover?

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