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My SL1210mk2 in pieces. What now?

174.51.210.194

Posted on January 16, 2010 at 20:52:10
AbeCollins
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Where do I get an arm plate for the SL1200 so I can mount other arms? The only source I know of is in the UK and the price of the plate is about $145 USD plus shipping and waiting. Not that the price is unacceptable but it would be nice if there were a US supplier.

I'm thinking of the Jelco 750D tonearm (last photo) as it is a higher mass tonearm possibly making it a better match for the Denon DL103 cartridges. I wonder what arm plate olddude55 used for his linear tracker on the SL1200. ??

My "other" SL1210mk2 in pieces
The bearing is super simple to remove. Remove the round cover plate. Now unplug the connectors and cables from the circuit board, unscrew the 3 circuit board screws, unscrew the 3 screws surrounding the top of the bearing and lift off the round cover. Lift the circuit board and remove the bearing assembly.


Removing the arm requires complete disassembly
Remove the heavy rubber bottom. Remove the heavy composite material middle section. Remove the tonearm assembly.


Tonearm and motor bearing removed.


SL1210mk2 partially reassembled waiting for me to decide what to do next.


Jelco 750D arm black chrome finish and DL103 cartridge. Note the arm plate.



 

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RE: My SL1210mk2 in pieces. What now?, posted on January 16, 2010 at 20:56:01
rich121
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Posts: 5335
Location: Washington State
Joined: March 8, 2003
I'm curious...what is with the multimeter in the background of the pictures, what did you need it for while taking apart the turntable?


Just curious...


Rick
It's all about the music!
Support Asylum Trader

 

RE: My SL1210mk2 in pieces. What now?, posted on January 16, 2010 at 21:01:34
AbeCollins
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Was using the DMM to measure voltages around the power supply section just out of curiosity. I don't have a service manual or schematic. Measured 30VAC to a rectifier circuit putting out about 18VDC. I didn't spend a lot of time on it. Was more interested in the mechanical stuff.


 

Needle Doctor has the OL Rega armboard for $99, posted on January 16, 2010 at 21:01:36
Ivan303
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Posts: 30379
Location: San Francisco
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You can order it direct for about 50 British Pounds from the OL web site.



 

RE: My SL1210mk2 in pieces. What now?, posted on January 16, 2010 at 21:27:18
rich121
Audiophile

Posts: 5335
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Thanks.. I was just curious what you were testing, if there were other mods you were doing...

Looks like a fun project!

Enjoy!


Rick


It's all about the music!
Support Asylum Trader

 

Thanks! I'll look into it...., posted on January 16, 2010 at 21:44:20
AbeCollins
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Do you know if the Rega arms have the same mounting holes as Jelco ?

Also curious to know which arm you are using on your SL1200 ?

Thanks!

 

replinth it..., posted on January 16, 2010 at 21:48:58
johnirwin
Audiophile

Posts: 278
Location: Nebraska
Joined: February 22, 2006
with a new bearing and new arm why not..

 

You are there!, posted on January 16, 2010 at 22:06:04
Panelhead
Audiophile

Posts: 731
Location: Houston
Joined: September 26, 2000
I added rubber dampening sheet between the middle section and the metal top plinth. And sticky tape to the arm.
With a better headshell it really sings.

George

 

A question and some comments, posted on January 16, 2010 at 22:08:15
Posts: 6936
Location: Powell, Wyoming
Joined: July 23, 2007
I assume that by now you've taken delivery of the KAB SL-1200 with tonearm dampener and Cardas rewire? If so, what do you think of its performance versus stock unmodified?

I don't quite understand why you'd want to remove and replace the stock tonearm with a Jelco. The Jelco is decent (I've got one on my Technics SP-15) but I don't see that it's going to be any improvement over the Technics tonearm. If you want a tonearm with greater mass to better match the Denon DL103, wouldn't it make sense to simply add a heavier headshell and additional counterweight to the stock tonearm?

If I were going to replace the tonearm on my Technics, I would not bother swapping another pivoted tonearm onto it. If anything, I'd put a linear tracker onto it.

I believe Olddude simply clamped a linear tracking tonearm onto the plinth of his Technics, without need for a custom armboard.

 

I wonder what arm plate olddude55 used for his linear tracker on the SL1200. ??, posted on January 16, 2010 at 22:38:55
about2
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An Origin Live armboard per olddude.
Regards,
Doug Olsen

A man can never have too many turntables.

 

RE: My SL1210mk2 in pieces. What now?, posted on January 17, 2010 at 00:42:36
Solidcore
Dealer

Posts: 277
Joined: April 19, 2001
Hi Abe
Try searching the ebay.co.uk site you will discover more suppliers of Technics armboards amd other mods.
How does the new bearing sound?
Did you make a review of your new Cornet2?

Best regards - Jan

 

I think Henry donated an aluminum armboard...., posted on January 17, 2010 at 00:54:56
tubesforever
Manufacturer

Posts: 10468
Location: Great Basin
Joined: May 7, 2005
I agree about the pivoted arms. Either go with a unipivot arm or better yet go with the Trans-Fi Terminator 3 Pro arm. It sounds delicious on my friend's DP 6000. Its so good I plan to buy one myself.

Cheers!

"Help support our school's Music programs"


 

RE: My SL1210mk2 in pieces. What now?, posted on January 17, 2010 at 01:02:35
Solidcore
Dealer

Posts: 277
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Forgot to mention one supplier; www.soundsupports.com they are also on eBay.co.uk - link to eBay from their website.Very modest prices compared other suppliers.
Rgds Jan

 

I used an OL arm board graciously donated by Opus 104., posted on January 17, 2010 at 04:38:58
olddude55
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But, it wouldn't be difficult to make the armboard from HDF if you have a drill press.
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...

 

The Rabco was artlessly screwed to the Technics plinth, posted on January 17, 2010 at 04:40:53
olddude55
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but Rabcos don't necessarily need armboards.
If you want to use an arm that mounts to a standard tone arm hole, you'll need an armboard for the Technics.
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...

 

Suspect Jelco specs and geometry, posted on January 17, 2010 at 05:04:03
hesson11
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Hi Abe,

I'm guessing you've seen the threads on the questionable Jelco specifications and their implications for correct spindle-to-pivot distance, etc. But just to make sure, I've posted a link. Best of luck.
-Bob

 

Have you checked the Vinyl Engine for a SM/Schematic?, posted on January 17, 2010 at 05:09:42
I think I see all three for the 1210.

 

Nothing suspect about their tonearm dimensions, posted on January 17, 2010 at 05:15:53
B.K.
Audiophile

Posts: 779
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Jelco have been making tonearms for years, and there is no doubting the accuracy of their technical drawings.

The SA-750D tonearm has an effective length of 229mm, but if you want to align it so that the null radii fall at 66.0mm and 120.9mm then it might be better to mount it so that the centre of the base is at a distance of 211mm from the spindle

Best regards,

BK

 

Abe, the Jelco SA-370H uses the same mounting geometry as the Rega 250/300, posted on January 17, 2010 at 05:20:36
Same pivot to spindle, etc., so the OL Rega armboard can be used on the SL-12XX. I really like that arm on my Thorens, plus optional heavier CW is available for heavier carts/headshells.

However, all that said, I think the Cardas re-wired Technics arm is the best for the SL-12XX, short of a super arm such as a Moerch unipivot or SME, etc.






 

Also . . ., posted on January 17, 2010 at 05:35:11
By installing a Jelco/Rega, etc., you lose the easy pivot height adjustment the Technics arm offers. Something to consider.


 

How much do you want to spend on a new arm? nt, posted on January 17, 2010 at 07:33:10
olddude55
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nt
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...

 

Pivoted, posted on January 17, 2010 at 07:33:58
hukkfinn
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I don't understand these comments discouraging the use of another pivoted arm on the Technics.

Many, many posts in this and other forums have identified the Technics tonearm as a major limiting factor in the sound quality of this turntable.

It seems like the thing to do is to try almost any other tonearm that is half decent. Pivot or not. This will test the theory that the stock Technics arm sucks and may prove extremely helpful to the forum generally because my guess is that most SL1200 owners are going to be more willing to switch to a pivot than to a unipivot or linear.

Hukk

 

Effective Length of Jelco SA-750D not the same as Rega tonearms., posted on January 17, 2010 at 07:37:29
B.K.
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Posts: 779
Location: Ireland
Joined: February 18, 2007



See link from Jelco webpage.

There have been several versions of this tonearm over the years, and the length has also varied.

The SA-750D has an effective length of 229mm.

See picture above.

BK

 

I'd be the first one to say that the standard Technics arm does not suck., posted on January 17, 2010 at 07:48:01
olddude55
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Posts: 28103
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It's a good arm, much better than a lot of people might think. Even with the OE wiring.
I think it's just the nature of the SL series; a quiet, solid, stable platform that's easy to disassemble. You can literally screw another tonearm to the plinth with sheet metal screws and it'll work.
The SL is something that cries out for experimentation, if you're inclined.

___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...

 

Correct. The SA-370H is the same as the RB-250/300. (see below). /nt\, posted on January 17, 2010 at 07:53:17

 

RE: My SL1210mk2 in pieces. What now?, posted on January 17, 2010 at 08:09:36
philltubes
Audiophile

Posts: 344
Location: Atlanta
Joined: January 8, 2007
Hi Abe, I have an SA-250 ST sitting on the side waiting for me to make a plate or buy one, found this on Ebay, no affiliation to seller. If you don't have the tools to make one yourself, make a template for the plate, when you get an arm use the arm template that comes with it to mark the center of the spindle to pivot point and have a machine shop make one up. The cost for these arm plates seems rather high so I'll whip one up when I get motivated. If yo make one up you have to make sure you can get proper VTA.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Jelco-SA-750D-SA-250-Armboard-Technics-1200-1210-Plate_W0QQitemZ150403446908QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTurntable_Parts_Accessories?hash=item2304be787c

 

RE: My SL1210mk2 in pieces. What now?, posted on January 17, 2010 at 08:23:49
Stale
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Try e-bay:

soundsupports

has lot of adapter plates, maybe he can supply one for Jelco?




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."

 

You'd think!, posted on January 17, 2010 at 08:43:06
hesson11
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Posts: 1778
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I hope you're right, B.K., and I'd like to think Jelco got it right. But I'm wondering whether you've read the thread I linked to and what you think of it.
-Bob

 

RE: My SL1210mk2 in pieces. What now?, posted on January 17, 2010 at 08:50:58
majick47
Audiophile

Posts: 674
Location: Pembroke MA
Joined: June 27, 2006
I have three Technics turntables, 1985 stock SL1200 and a much more recent SL1210 with Cardas rewired tonearm/KAB fluid damper and a SP-25. Recently I purchased a Technics EPA250 tonearm and by the looks of it the SL1200 tonearm is a very direct decendent of the EPA250 with the headshell and heavy add on weight a perfect match. The adjustable VTA is also the same system in both arms, not sure if the antiskate is similar. Not to say the SL1200 tonearm is anywhere the equal but to me it looks like Technics used some of the same design features. If someone installed a Technics EPA100/250/500 tonearm on a SL1200 it would be very interesting to see how one of those Technics EPA tonearms performs compared to the SL1200 tonearm.

 

Agreed and..., posted on January 17, 2010 at 09:05:14
blake


 
those who have experience directly with both the 103/103R (the cartridge Abe will be using) in the 750D (the tonearm he is considering-as opposed to other Jelco arms-let's face it, Jelco makes a lot of arms-the 750D is their best arm, particularly with lower to medium compliance cartridges, with their best bearings, best wiring and fluid damping) report considerable synergy and much better results than with the Technics arm. If we're going to make comparisons, it may as well be apples to apples.

FWIW, the 750D is a Linn mount and requires a different mounting distance than either the 370 or 250ST mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

 

The tonearm headshells have extra long slots, posted on January 17, 2010 at 09:37:44
B.K.
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Posts: 779
Location: Ireland
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Hi,

I had a quick look through the thread.

The Jelco tonearms are designed having headshells with extra long slots (15mm).

A standard cartridge will be positioned much further back that many people are used to with other universal fit headshells.

In fact you could easily get away with having the tonearm mounted at 214 mm, align for null radii at 66 mm and 121 mm, making use of the long headshell slots and producing an effective lentth of 232mm.

Best regards,

BK

 

Not too much, certainly less than $500 -nt, posted on January 17, 2010 at 10:10:51
AbeCollins
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.

 

In that price range, posted on January 17, 2010 at 10:19:48
olddude55
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Posts: 28103
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Unless you want to start using zu Denons or Uwe-bodied 103s, either stick with the stock arm or look for a good used Rabco SL-8E.
Or there's
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...

 

RE: The tonearm headshells have extra long slots, posted on January 17, 2010 at 10:32:24
dean man jim
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I didn't realize until checking just now that my Nagaoka, ADC, AT, and Technics headshells are all the same overall length and have the same length and placement of mounting slots, but my Jelco example is mysteriously longer by about 15 mm I'd guess (and with longer slots).

It would have been so much better if Jelco communicated this tidbit! I can't find a reference in anything they produce to indicate their choice in making a headshell with different dimensions than the rest of the world's universal fit ones. Or why they did it.

This explains everything regardng the mystery of mounting distance and headshell/cartridge appearance, for me anyway, and might give a person reason to source a Jelco arm without the Jelco headshell!

Thanks and regards,

Jim
"Never look at the trombones...it only encourages them." Richard Wagner

 

Well, that could explain a lot! Thanks. n/t, posted on January 17, 2010 at 12:12:00
hesson11
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Posts: 1778
Location: Florida
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n/t

 

Question for Opus 104.... or others, posted on January 17, 2010 at 12:12:17
AbeCollins
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Do you think the Jelco 750D with DL-103 would be an upgrade over the stock Technics tonearm with the same cartridge?

If not, I wonder what my choices are in the $500 range? Or should I just keep the stock Technics arm at that price point?

Are the Rega 301 / 700 compatible with the Technics (not necessarily with DL-103) and would these arms be upgrades or only on par with the stock Technics arm?

I'm trying to determine if there's an upgrade path for the stock Technics arm at under $500.

I'm not real interested in a linear tracker, new or used, at this point.

Thanks!


 

RE: Question for Opus 104.... or others, posted on January 17, 2010 at 12:40:51
philltubes
Audiophile

Posts: 344
Location: Atlanta
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Abe, from the reports I've read, the guys in the UK and Euro. are getting great results with all the Jelcos and not so worthwile results with the Rega arms.

 

RE: Question for Opus 104.... or others, posted on January 17, 2010 at 12:53:56
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 2036
Location: So.Cal
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Do you think the Jelco 750D with DL-103 would be an upgrade over the stock Technics tonearm with the same cartridge?


Yes. But not to DJ's!

 

If you want to go DL-103, posted on January 17, 2010 at 12:56:30
olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 28103
Location: Pittsburgh
Joined: July 12, 2003
and you've settled on that particular cartridge in all of it's permutations, and if you want to spend less than $500.00 on an arm, then go Jelco or see the link I posted elsewhere in this thread.
If you like the 103 but aren't sure if you like it as a be-all/end-all, then either stick with the Technics arm or see the link I posted elsewhere in this thread.
By the way, Vic (creator of the Trans-Fi Terminator)uses a DL-103 in his personal rig.
___
The little old ladies wait in wild anticipation for the meetings of the Double-A-C-ASSN...

 

IF and only IF the SA-750D has an effective mass of 18 grams..., posted on January 17, 2010 at 13:17:03
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 30379
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as some here have claimed, then I would say yes, it should work better with the DL-103 than the stock Technics arm.

Add a heavier headshell and you are even better suited for the DL-103.

The best I've ever heard a stock 103R sound was on a very heavy Schick tonearm.

OK, it was mounted on a Garrard 301 rim drive but....




 

IMO, I'd have Kevin do a Cardas re-wire on the Technics arm. , posted on January 17, 2010 at 13:36:42
Ans spend the rest of the $500 on a Uwe wood body for your 103R and rekkids.

 

Just let us know when you get it all back together..., posted on January 17, 2010 at 14:27:22
NoClue48
Audiophile

Posts: 68
Location: Minneapolis
Joined: June 6, 2008
I'd be interested in hearing how may screws, nuts, bolts, etc. are left over--because no project is compete unless you have "residuals". :-)
---------------------------------------------------------
Shure M97xE(2); Technics SL-1210M5G; Sony SCD-XA777ES; Denon AVR-4806; Denon DVD-5910; Paradigm Reference Studio/100, Studio/20, Studio/CC; Boston Acoustics PV1000
--Eschew Obfuscation

 

RE: My SL1210mk2 in pieces. What now?, posted on January 17, 2010 at 14:32:18
GBLPS
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: South Central PA
Joined: March 15, 2006
There is a gentleman I believe in Poland that makes one for $100.00 and 175.00 + 30.00 shipping to USA. I contacted him through Vinyl Engine as I am thinking of doing the same as you. See link

 

RE: Thanks! I'll look into it...., posted on January 17, 2010 at 14:46:59
blake


 
No. The Jelcos use a Linn mount; a Rega armboard will not work.

 

RE: Just let us know when you get it all back together..., posted on January 17, 2010 at 14:54:46
AbeCollins
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I already have one "extra" screw but I think I know where it belongs. ;-)

 

RE: My SL1210mk2 in pieces. What now?, posted on January 17, 2010 at 15:00:58
AbeCollins
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It's definitely the best looking arm mount adapter of the ones I've seen so far. It appears that he uses the existing SL1200 arm mounting "cup", modifies it, and makes the adapter to fit inside of it.

The other adapters do not use the "cup" at all but fills the entire hole where the cup would normally reside. The main concerns I have with that nice looking adapter from Poland is whether he needs the original "cup" to be sent to him so it can be modified. ??

Is he still around? That website link you sent is informative with some great pictures of the adapter but the posting dates are not recent. Please let us know if you're able to reach him. Thanks!

 

Thanks...., posted on January 17, 2010 at 15:31:19
AbeCollins
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...that means the arm plate from Sound Hi Fi in the UK, and not the one on the needledoctor website. The one on the needledoctor website accommodates Rega arms. Thanks!

 

So what do you think of the build quality?....nt, posted on January 17, 2010 at 16:08:44
kootenay
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.
If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)

 

all due respect - you and Jelco are wrong ..., posted on January 17, 2010 at 19:55:42
I've owned several of these arms and rightly don't care how long Jelco's been making tonearms.

You find me one, JUST ONE, cartridge that can be mounted on the 750D with the stock headshell and achieve a 229mm effective length (pivot point to stylus distance) and I'll concede that it's possible - but I dare say you will never find one.

It has nothing to do with the "extra long" headshell slots and zip to do with where the cartridge ends up in relation to the slots - it has everything to do with the ability to mount a cartridge at the spec'd effective length. Those pics of my 20XL mounted 3/4's of the way back in the headshell reflect an effective length of around 236mm. The 20XL would have to move a full 7mm back in the headshell to achieve 229mm, which, is plainly not possible.

 

With the arm mounted at 214mm and 66/120.9 null points, posted on January 17, 2010 at 20:13:06

most carts end up barely fitting due to the cartridge and headshell pins being so close together. Many cartridges will not mount at all at this setting.

Remember, Baerwald / Lofgren A geometry typically pushes most cartridges further out towards the end of the headshell and away from the headhshell pins. The length of the slots is irrelevant in this case as I'm not away of any alignment geometry that could utilize them at the Jelco prescribed mounting distance. Please enlighten me if you're aware of one.

What makes this most odd - Jelco spec's a 229mm effective length - not sure what the null points would be on a cart mounted to that effective length - which is impossible to achieve with every cartridge I have ever seen.

If you look at the technical drawing you posted in your other response, you'll see that the STYLUS is spec'd to fall right at the front of the headshell slots and the distance from the pivot point to the stylus tip SHOULD be 229mm - as I clearly show in the other post it's not even close to 229mm.

 

The DL-103r was the only cart to benefit from the , posted on January 17, 2010 at 20:19:12
Jelco arm in my system. Every other cartridge I tried performed much better in the stock KAB re-wired arm. Even then, the benefit was ultimately negligible and not worth the expense in my opinion. I never could get the Denon to perform to the degree I required, but if someone was married to using just that cart, it might be worth the trouble and expense.

I had a good time trying both the Rega and Jelco arms on the table, but ultimately the rewired stock arm was, by far, the best with a vast majority of the cartridges I enjoy.

 

I was hoping you'd see this, 'Tap..., posted on January 17, 2010 at 21:26:20
hesson11
Audiophile

Posts: 1778
Location: Florida
Joined: December 8, 2005
...and lend your firsthand experience, of which I have none. This tonearm gets interestinger and interestinger all the time! Do you still have it mounted on your SL-1200? How's it doing? THANKS.
-Bob

 

I don't know how they do it for the price, posted on January 17, 2010 at 22:13:20
AbeCollins
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As I was taking the SL1210mk2 apart I kept wondering how Technics puts so much quality into a turntable that is so relatively inexpensive by audiophile standards.

The top appears to be made of aluminum and it's very solid, not a thin flimsy aluminum. I'm not sure what the middle section is made of. It seems like a plastic but it's dense and solid. The bottom is made of a very dense and heavy rubber material.... and all of the pieces fit together nicely.

When I started on this journey only last summer, I asked around about a good table that is reasonably priced for a newbie. I'm very happy with the recommendations and my decision to get a SL1200 series. Mine is the SL1210mk2 in basic black.

Oh, on a related note... I actually prefer the SL1210mk2 over the SL1200mk5 for one notable reason: The mk2 anti-skate dial covers 0 - 3 which is ideal for any cartridge I might use. The mk5 covers a wider range of 0 - 6 but that means less precise graduation marks on the dial and more touchy to get in the 1.5 to 2.5 range typically used with most cartridges.... other than DJ cartridges, I suppose.

 

YOUR OWN numbers provide the answer to your question., posted on January 18, 2010 at 02:49:36
B.K.
Audiophile

Posts: 779
Location: Ireland
Joined: February 18, 2007
You mounted your tonearm at 214 mm from the spindle, and aligned it to acheive an effective length of 232 mm. This is accroding to the information in YOUR OWN post below.

YOUR OWN cartridge could have been aligned to provide an effective length of 229 mm by moving the cartridge back in the headshell by about 3 mm. In fact, there is another 5 mm in the headshell according to YOUR OWN information. So based on YOUR OWN information, the effective length could have been reduced to ~227 mm by pushing the cartridge fully back in the headshell.

So the "JUST ONE" cartridge that you are looking for is YOUR OWN Dynavector 20XL.

Incidentally, the way you measured the mounting distance is not accurate. You need to measure from the centre of the mounting hole to the spindle. An elevated measurement is going to add an uncertainty of ~+/-1 mm, and using the edges of a piece of corrigated cardboard is going add further uncertainty to the measurement.

BK

 

In your original post, you didn't show that the effective length was not equal to 229mm., posted on January 18, 2010 at 03:05:06
B.K.
Audiophile

Posts: 779
Location: Ireland
Joined: February 18, 2007
"as I clearly show in the other post it's not even close to 229mm"

In your original post, you didn't clearly show that the effective length is not even close to 229mm.

Unless I am reading the wrong post.

Also you are wrong about fitting cartridges to the headshell; most cartridges will fit even with their mounting bolts as far back in the headshell as the slots allow.

BK

 

RE: My SL1210mk2 in pieces. What now?, posted on January 18, 2010 at 07:31:30
GBLPS
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Location: South Central PA
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Yes he s still around. No I do not think you need to send him any parts. I contacted him through Vinyl Engine private email system and he answered very quickly. That was back around Christmas.

 

Nice to read an INFORMED opinion,, posted on January 18, 2010 at 07:53:17
Posts: 6936
Location: Powell, Wyoming
Joined: July 23, 2007
based on ACTUAL experience.

VynylTap wrote:

"I had a good time trying both the Rega and Jelco arms on the table, but ultimately the rewired stock arm was, by far, the best with a vast majority of the cartridges I enjoy."

Thank you.

 

What are you talking about??? No, no, no., posted on January 18, 2010 at 12:10:41
I'm, frankly, getting a bit tired of beating this topic to death! I would recommend you actually go get one of these arms, mount it at 214mm, THEN get back to me...

The arm was mounted at precisely 214mm - precisely.

The effective length of the arm with the cart mounted via Baerwald is 232mm. It would be impossible to move the cart back any further, 1mm much less 3mm. Look at the pictures on my post. There's not 5mm of slot remaining first of all and, more importantly, the headshell and cartridge leads are TOUCHING each other at 232mm. What do you propose, cutting the pins?

I've confirmed, re-confirmed, etc. the FACT that the effective length of this arm CAN NOT be 229mm. No way, no how.

 

you're reading the post wrong - I clearly say it's 232mm. , posted on January 18, 2010 at 12:15:40
and even prove it by showing PICTURES of it aligning perfectly with the 232mm arc on the Baerwald template.

 

Worked great with the DL-103r, posted on January 18, 2010 at 13:09:15
But every other cartridge I used worked better with the KAB mod'd stock arm. Not. Worth the time and expense in my opinion unless you're ONLY going to use the Denon. Even then I'm not sure it's really worth it.

 

Then stop wasting your (and my) time here., posted on January 18, 2010 at 15:00:59
B.K.
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In the picture there is a clear 5mm behind the bolts.

In your oritinal post, you said: "the cartridge is mounted 2/3 of the way back"; 1/3 of 15mm = 5mm. GET IT YET, OR IS THAT TOO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?????????

I agree on one point: this 'discussion' is a waste of time; moreover, you're not the first person to chime in out of nowhere claiming that a manufacturer had got it wrong: Actually, you have it wrong.

And while I'm on the subject, the pins don't touch with the cartridge fully back in the headshell.

BK

 

Pictures, posted on January 18, 2010 at 16:11:39
B.K.
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Posts: 779
Location: Ireland
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Shure V15VxMR mounted in Jelco headshell, providing effective length of ~226mm














 

RE: I don't know how they do it for the price, posted on January 18, 2010 at 16:22:00
Posts: 6936
Location: Powell, Wyoming
Joined: July 23, 2007
Looking at the engineering, product design, and tooling needed to manufacture the Technics SL-1200, by today's standards it should be very expensive. However, it was developed by Matsushita thirty years ago. At the time, the Japanese had achieved excellence in design and manufacturing and the cost of tooling in Asia was considerably less than in the USA and Europe. Also consider that the market for turntables was much larger than it is today. Due to large sales volume, Matsushita was presumably able to quickly recover design and tooling costs. With those upfront costs long gone, it's no surprise that Technics can continue to build and sell these quality turntables at a very attractive price.

Compare the Technics to the more recently designed turntables on the market. The reason that virtually all of the so-called "audiophile" turntables currently available are belt drives is simple. It's relatively cheap and easy to design and build a belt drive. To design and produce tooling for a direct drive similar to the Technics would be an extremely expensive venture in 2010. The sales volume is no longer there to recoup large upfront costs.

So enjoy your Technics turntables. They are truly an excellent product and an exceptional value for the money spent.

 

Could this be the explanation?, posted on January 18, 2010 at 17:46:39
hesson11
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Posts: 1778
Location: Florida
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I don't mean to butt in, VinylTap and B.K., but I took a close look at both your pictures. It APPEARS that there may be two main differences in your setups:

1. The distance from the cartridge mounting screws to the back end of the carts appears to be shorter on B.K.'s Shure than on VinylTap's Dynavector.

2. The tonearm wire clips appear to be shorter on B.K.'s headshell than on VinylTap's.

Could this account for the the fact that B.K. can move his cart further back than VinylTap can? (Just taking a wild stab at it!)
-Bob

 

I have that Jelco headshell..., posted on January 18, 2010 at 19:14:56
Ivan303
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Are you saying that, based on the SA-750D drawing above, if you were to move the cartridge 3mm further forward than your picture, you would have a stylus tip to tonearm pivot distance of exactly the 229mm as shown on the drawing above?

That's assuming a mounting position with a spindle to pivot distance of 214mm, of course.



 

I'm done. Buy the arm. Actually mount it at 214 mm and then get back to me. , posted on January 18, 2010 at 20:12:01
Enough said. Your taking the specs as Gospel (are you an engineer for Jelco?) and I'm speaking from actual experience. I'm not beating his to death any more and stand firmly behind my findings ubtil you PROVE me wrong with an actual arm mounted at 214mm and a cartridge shown ON A 750D with a 229m effective length.

 

Beautiful. Different arm. (nt - good grief), posted on January 18, 2010 at 20:14:28
HFS

 

B.K. DOESN'T own a Jelco arm, posted on January 18, 2010 at 20:20:56
Which makes this all the more mysterious. Not sure why he's so hellbent to defend them.

 

You are done, because your whole arguemnt is without basis., posted on January 19, 2010 at 00:29:11
B.K.
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NT

 

Basically, that's it, posted on January 19, 2010 at 00:30:36
B.K.
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Location: Ireland
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Basically, that was what I was trying to show.

The stylus is about 7.5mm from the front of the headshell, so if the Shure V15VxMR was mounted on a Jelko SA750D it would produce an effective length in the order of 4mm less than the nominal effective lenght (229mm). The nominal effective length occurs when the stylus is about 3mm from the front of the headshell - see Jelco drawings.

The minimum possible effective would variy for each cartridge because the distance from the stylus tip to the mounting bolts is not a constant - for example a Denon DL103 at the same position in the headshell would produce an effective length about 6mm short of 229mm. That's why most tonearms have slots in the headshell.

However, I disagree with your last point: the mounting distance does not change the effective length. It just changes the null radii.

BK

 

Not really ., posted on January 19, 2010 at 00:45:27
B.K.
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Location: Ireland
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Thanks for trying; however, for the pictures, the cartridge is mounted on a Graham Robin, and it isn't set up on any turntable.

The point of the pictures was to illustrate that the cartridge can be accommodated all the way at the back of the headshell, and to demonstrate that the stylus falls well short of the position in the drawings which produces an effective length of 229mm.

The headshell leads are the same litz wires on all of the Jelco arms. There are only two headshells available, a grey version and a black version.

I have no idea what leads or headshell Mr Vinyl Tap is using.

BK

 

Are you setting out to demonstrate that you are IMPERVIOUS to logic?, posted on January 19, 2010 at 00:47:35
B.K.
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Posts: 779
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The pictures are of the headshell with Shure V15 mounted to illustrate that the cartridge can be accommodated all the way at the back of the headshell.

It's the demonstration that you requested above.

You said that this was impossible.

So ADMIT you were WRONG or demonstrate that you are IMPERVIOUS to logic.

BK

 

BK owns 2 Jelco arms NT, posted on January 19, 2010 at 00:48:30
B.K.
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BK owns 2 Jelco arms NT

 

No, YOU are READING badly., posted on January 19, 2010 at 00:49:56
B.K.
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Posts: 779
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I stated that you failed to show that the effective length is NOT 229mm.

Read it again.

BK

 

a 750D?, posted on January 19, 2010 at 13:57:17
you have none listed in your profile. You seem to be going under the assumption that I'm trying to be a jerk here - it's not my intent.

 

It's a different arm with a different effective length!!! That's not a 750D is it?, posted on January 19, 2010 at 14:16:36

And even if it was a 750D it would STILL PROVE MY POINT - the technical drawing prescribes that the the stylus should fall just in front of the headshell slots with the stylus positioned at 229mm from the pivot point (hence giving an effective length of 229mm).

Look, this is so very simple - according to the technical drawings from Jelco and their spec's - if you take a length of thread and stretch it from the pivot point of the arm to the point identified on the drawing just in front of the slots - it should measure PRECISELY 229mm.

I'll help you out since you're having trouble following along - look at the drawing I've attached - see the big line with the arrow on it with the big R229 above it??? You with me so far??? Now go get your hands on a ACTUAL 750D arm and measure that distance - and you'll quickly find that it's NOT 229MM - not even close, it's more like 233mm+.

Go back to my original post - I linked it to help - the stylus on the 20XL is at 232mm from the pivot point - giving AN EFFECTIVE LENGTH OF 232mm. The stylus is BEHIND the prescribed 229mm point.

I'm beginning to think you're just messing with me at this point, getting your jollies watching me repeat the same thing over and over again when a ten year old would understand what I'm saying is true. NOBODY can be this dense.

 

explain this then please... and I will concede defeat, posted on January 19, 2010 at 14:31:47

You're clearly saying that if I take that cartridge mounted exactly as you have it and put it on the 750D I would have an effective length of 225mm. Here's your quote:

"so if the Shure V15VxMR was mounted on a Jelko SA750D it would produce an effective length in the order of 4mm less than the nominal effective lenght (229mm)."

So, please explain how my 20XL is mounted AND MEASURED with an effective length of 232mm (see the picture...) and the stylus is within a mm or two of your Shure.

 

all it takes is looking at the technical drawing you're basing all your assumptions on, posted on January 19, 2010 at 14:34:45
and looking at where my cartridge measures 232mm to determine that. It couldn't be simpler.

 

You're right, I think you are trying to be a jerk - here's the basis, posted on January 19, 2010 at 15:40:50
B.K.
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Posts: 779
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Your whole contribution here has been antagonistic, packed with clever dick remarks and comments which were based strongly on bold CAPTILISED assertion and not ACTUAL FACTS. EG "the pins touch", "the cartridge cant be moved any further back", "the effective lenght is 236mm", "the length of the headshell slots has zip to do with it" etc etc - all these points are wrong.

I don't own an SA 750D and never claimed to own one. I have two SA 750L tonearms, an Audioquest PT9, a Graham Robin, and a Grado Reference - all of which were made by Jelco.

You measured the technical drawing provided with the tonearm and concluded that the tonearm was out of spec, but you forgot to check if the drawing is produced accurately to scale - it isn't.

Put the mounting template (which is accurately to a 1:1 scale) over the technical drawing; hold the two drawings up to the light and try to line them up. They don't line up. So you can't make conclusions from measurements on the drawing.

As regards your pictures - you didn't show the headshell from the side, your pictures are shot at an angle, but it looks to me that your stylus falls close to the front of the headshell and a one or two mm ahead of the point for an effective length 229mm. Roughly, consistent with your deduction that the effective length is 232mm and roughly consistent with the tonearm drawings.

If you had started out by saying that a user might just as well mount the tonearm at a greater distance than the manufacturer's recommended value, then I would have agreed.

The extra long slots in the headshell allow the tonearm to be mounted anywhere from ~211mm to 222mm, and for alignment still to be possible.

It's a benefit, not a drawback.

If you want the cartridge bolts to fall right in the middle of the slots, for null radii at 66mm and 121mm then you should mount the tonearm at ~216mm


BK

And by the way, I certainly don't need to prove my credentials to you.

 

Incorrect again, posted on January 19, 2010 at 15:45:26
B.K.
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Posts: 779
Location: Ireland
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Spot the difference:

"You're clearly saying that if I take that cartridge mounted exactly as you have it and put it on the 750D I would have an effective length of 225mm. Here's your quote:

"so if the Shure V15VxMR was mounted on a Jelko SA750D it would produce an effective length in the order of 4mm less than the nominal effective lenght (229mm).""

 

Why would anyone think you are being a jerk? NT, posted on January 19, 2010 at 15:46:29
B.K.
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Posts: 779
Location: Ireland
Joined: February 18, 2007
Why would anyone think you are being a jerk? NT

 

"I don't own an SA 750D and never claimed to own one.", posted on January 19, 2010 at 16:21:30
'nuf said. It doesn't matter if the drawing is to scale - all I need to use are the printed dimensions on the drawing in comparison to the ACTUAL ARM SITTING IN FRONT OF ME to know they're incorrect.

I'm using caps in hopes of getting it to sink in. Yes, I'm now being an ass and with good reason.

Answer the one post you haven't so we can be done with this. Simply and plainly explain how I'm able to achieve 232mm effective length with the stylus several mm's BEHIND the specd 229mm mark. If I'm wrong I'm man enough to freely admit it. Are you?

 

BTW - I'm truly convinced this is an actual Asylum at this point. , posted on January 19, 2010 at 16:30:20
nt

 

"Yes, I'm now being an ass" that's correct you are. NT, posted on January 19, 2010 at 16:40:46
B.K.
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Posts: 779
Location: Ireland
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"Yes, I'm now being an ass" that's correct you are. NT

 

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