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Planning to buy my first vinyl set-up. Have a budget of ~ $5000

59.94.41.184
Posted on November 7, 2009 at 10:39:21
BlackBeastofAaaaagh
 Hello Everyone,
I am now seriously thinking of getting started with vinyl. My current setup consists of Meadowlark Audio Shearwater speakers powered by a Rogue Audio Tempest integrated tube amp. I plan to upgrade this system within the next year. Perhaps for a Horning Aristoteles, Rethm Saadhana, Audio Note An-E speaker powered most likely by an SET amp and preamp combo.
I will need to purchase a phono-preamp, turntable, tone-arm, and cartridge. I am figuring that with a budget of $5000 I should be able to obtain a setup that won't disappoint (and is genuinely better than CD quality) and should not be out of place with my planned future set-up.

Can anyone recommend a rough percentage breakdown of how much should be spent on each vinyl component? Is it a good idea to go for one of those ready-to-run packages?

Also what is generally considered to be the sweet-spot (price-wise) for a turntable-needle-arm combo before the law of diminishing returns really starts setting in?

Since I am planning to upgrade to a new preamp (the Supratek Cortese looks promising) I may as well pay more for built-in phono amp option. Would this be preferable to buying a stand-alone phono amp?

there in is the definition of infinite!, posted on November 8, 2009 at 19:54:54
cpielock@eaglebrook.org
Audiophile

Posts: 60
Location: western mass
Joined: May 11, 2004
 So,kKeep it simple. You have a nice amp and speakers. Spend approximately $3000 on a table tone arm and cartridge,then a good preamp for $2000. There are many good used tables/arms on Audiogon for a reaonable price about $2K, spend $1K on a new MC cartridge and you can find a nice tube phono pre for $2K, ie Bat,Aesthetix, etc.

a bit OT, but since you mention the Audio Note speakers, posted on November 8, 2009 at 18:45:28
trav
Audiophile

Posts: 1533
Location: MN
Joined: January 25, 2003
 You may be able to find some Snell Type E's (which the AN's are based on) pretty cheap on the used market. Be sure to check the foam surrounds on the woofers. I got my pair with nicely refoamed woofers for $260. Not the same as the AN's, but they should give you a rough idea of what to expect, are cheap fun, and much different than your Meadowlarks, which I also like. The Snells can go pretty loud on a 5 watt chip amp, so if you are thinking of trying the SET route they'd be a cheap starter speaker for that project.

Good luck on the analog.

4 questions, 4 answers, posted on November 8, 2009 at 06:16:40
travisty
Audiophile

Posts: 547
Location: Tokyo
Joined: April 2, 2003
 1. "I will need to purchase a phono-preamp, turntable, tone-arm, and cartridge.... Can anyone recommend a rough percentage breakdown of how much should be spent on each vinyl component?"

A: Agree with Hukkfinn if buying new (50 table/arm, 30 phono, 20 cart). If buying used however, this ratio could be anywhere, depending on how you do things. If I look at the table I currently have in use, it is 50% table/arm, 40% phono stage, 10% cart, but I bought the phono new/discounted and the table/arm and cart used. If I had to recommend, build, deliver, and set up a $5000 package to a friend, it would be used and would be $2500 table/arm, $1500 phono+stepup, $500 cart (I have very specific components in mind), plus a protractor, some small isolation devices, a disc stabilizer, and a cartridge scale.

2. "Is it a good idea to go for one of those ready-to-run packages?"
A: "Good idea" depends on how much of a self-starter you are, or whether you have someone around who can help. If buying used (which I recommend), in many cases people will offer the whole setup. In that case, an arm which matches a table may be a good start. If you are thinking of your first table as a starter-table, which if you find you really appreciate the vinyl lifestyle you will then get rid of and move higher, then yes. Some other beginner is going to want to buy that setup from you later.

3. "What is generally considered to be the sweet-spot (price-wise) for a turntable-needle-arm combo before the law of diminishing returns really starts setting in?"

A: Opinions are all over the place so there's no general consensus. Almost so much so that it is not worth answering, but, I'll go ahead anyway... used, I would put the diminishing returns line at around $2500-3000 for turntable and arm. New, I would think it is higher.

4. "...I may as well pay more for built-in phono amp option. Would this be preferable to buying a stand-alone phono amp?"

A: Same as hukkfinn (copy/pasted his answer)
It's preferable from the standpoints of:
... cost, eliminating an interconnect, cleaning up your stereo shelves, likely synergy between phono pre and amp...

...but only *IF* the preamp you are buying has a great phono pre in it. This is definitely not always the case.

He's not asking for equipment recommendations. Congrats cactuscowboy and politics fan for answering the Q!, posted on November 8, 2009 at 05:49:18
hukkfinn
Audiophile

Posts: 2831
Location: East Coast
Joined: July 19, 2002
 36 posts, 2 actually (shock!!) answered the questions posed. Let's see....

1. "I will need to purchase a phono-preamp, turntable, tone-arm, and cartridge.... Can anyone recommend a rough percentage breakdown of how much should be spent on each vinyl component?"

A: Roughly:
50% turntable and tonearm together ($2,500)

30% phono pre ($1,500)

20% cartridge ($1,000)


2. "Is it a good idea to go for one of those ready-to-run packages?"

A: Generally, no. Turntable/tonearm/cartridge combos are typically found in lower price points than yours. I'm not aware of any combo that includes phono pre. However I WOULD recommend that you buy a table and tonearm together, because buying separately and then combining could be difficult for a beginning enthusiast. Heck I've been doing this for 7 years and I still haven't tried it.

3. "What is generally considered to be the sweet-spot (price-wise) for a turntable-needle-arm combo before the law of diminishing returns really starts setting in?"

A: Opinions are all over the place so there's no general consensus. I'd say diminishing returns creep in at roughly:
-$2000 for turntable/tonearm
-$1200 for phono pre
-$900 for cartridge


4. "...I may as well pay more for built-in phono amp option. Would this be preferable to buying a stand-alone phono amp?"

A: It's preferable from the standpoints of:
-cost
-eliminating an interconnect
-cleaning up your stereo shelves
-likely synergy between phono pre and amp...

...but only *IF* the preamp you are buying has a great phono pre in it. This is definitely not always the case.

Hukk
RE: He's not asking for equipment recommendations. Congrats cactuscowboy and politics fan for answering the Q!, posted on November 8, 2009 at 07:39:20
BlackBeastofAaaagh
 Thanks,
That was very useful and informative. Just what I was looking for.

I can recommend some fine SET gear thats affordably priced., posted on November 8, 2009 at 00:49:04
tubesforever
Manufacturer

Posts: 9124
Location: Great Basin
Joined: May 7, 2005
 Jim Hagerman sells the Cornet 2 phono stage and Clarinet line stage as both a complete turn key or a diy kit project.

I built mine with first rate passive components and have yet to find anything that can touch them for the price of admission.

What do you get? Class A circuitry. Full SET with zero negative feedback with the phono stage and a nice sounding dual SET in series resistance push pull for the line stage.

You can use Audio Note caps should you decide to go that route. In my system with CD, DVDA, SACD, and vinyl I could not be happier.

I am not sure why Single Ended Triodes sets the benchmark for me, but I have to say the magic is there at low volume, mid volume and high volume. Heck my moniker says it all.

I have no affiliation with Jim Hagerman other than the fact I think he is a superb designer and his dual layer pcb's affords a superior way to reduce noise with low signal amplification. My line stage and phono stages are quieter than my amplifier. Thats quiet with a capital Q.

I have invested just under 1 thousand dollars for the the phono and 1 thousand for the line stage and I can compare my system to uber expensive systems without excuses.

Whether you are good with a soldering iron, or prefer to buy turn key, the Hagerman Clarinet line stage and Cornet 2 phono stages sound superb and leave extra money for the important stuff like tonearms and cartridges.

Cheers!
"Music Matters" Help support our schools music programs.
RE: Planning to buy my first vinyl set-up. Have a budget of ~ $5000, posted on November 7, 2009 at 19:58:52
MID
Audiophile

Posts: 6
Location: Chicagoland, USA
Joined: February 16, 2009
 I post here rarely, but I hope I can offer some advice. If I were getting a new vinyl setup for the long haul, this is what I would look for in your price range.

Well Tempered Amadeus $2,800
Dynavector 20XL $750
Dynavector P75 MK II $780
2x 1 M Chord Co. Chrysalis $120
(or Chord Co. Cobra $230)

An alternative turntable might be the Rega P7 ($2,695). But I like the WT better. Also, bear in mind that there are many, many brands of interconnect out there. Do not try to listen to all of them. That way lies madness. I like the Chord Co. ICs. Your dealer may be aware of and suggest a better synergistic cable.

Indeed, as some have suggested, there are great values in used equipment, but, I think, you really have to be well informed and on top of your game to go that route. I think for someone just getting into vinyl, new equipment from a good dealer, who will set up the gear properly for you, is a smarter move. If you are so inclined, you can learn the ins and outs of set up and maintenance over time.

BTW, I think questions about what kind of music you like miss the point. Every setup has flaws, but a good setup should be able to play whatever you put on it. I don't believe that there are turntables for rock and other turntables for bebop, and yet other turntables for baroque. Indeed, one of the pleasures of a good setup is that it will allow you to play all kinds of music, and you may discover new music to love. The goal is to expand your musical enjoyment, not to limit it. Whatever you do, good luck and enjoy.

RE: Planning to buy my first vinyl set-up. Have a budget of ~ $5000, posted on November 8, 2009 at 08:49:35
BlackBeastofAaaagh
 Also, I noticed that your cartidge and preamp recommendation were both from Dynavector. It does seem logical to me that sticking within the same brand for these two complex electrical components should ensure at least a good amount of synergy.

RE: Planning to buy my first vinyl set-up. Have a budget of ~ $5000, posted on November 8, 2009 at 08:41:22
BlackBeastofAaaagh
 It is interesting that you mentioned the P7. It was this platform that first introduced me to quality vinyl sound (my only prior experience being my dad's old Dual/Stanton). It had a Sumiko cartidge (all I remember that it was less than $1000). When I heard it playing some Led Zep II and Who's Next at a dealer I was bowled over, and decided that I really wanted to take the vinyl plunge.

I will certainly try to audition the WT setup you recommended. I fully understand that synergy between components is important and appreciate advice. It also is nice that the two setups you mentioned are from established brands.

BTW: What is your opinion of VPI gear? It seems that practically all stereophonic stores carry them.

RE: Planning to buy my first vinyl set-up. Have a budget of ~ $5000, posted on November 8, 2009 at 09:35:03
MID
Audiophile

Posts: 6
Location: Chicagoland, USA
Joined: February 16, 2009
 The Dynavector phono stage is very good, and of course, it does work well with the Dynavector cartridges. I think it is interesting that many posters in this thread like Dynavector cartridges. (I don't have much patience for flavor-of-the-month or home-brewed equipment. And, I'd never buy a product called "Juicy" unless it had real fruit juice and came in a bottle. When I plunk down hard earned cash, I put a lot of stock in the maturity of the party I'm giving it to.)

VPI is quite popular. But, I don't like VPI turntables. To my ears, they all sound slow, sluggish, lethargic. Different systems, different cartridges -- I hear the same basic sound. I think the problem is that the massive plinths VPI uses don't really dampen vibrations as much as store vibrations, and release the energy slowly, or, in other words, they vibrate at low frequencies. This low frequency vibration from the plinth distorts the bass, giving the turntables the slow, boomy sound I dislike, and also the heavy, artificially solid sound some do like. (Maybe it's not surprising that the current VPI table I find least offensive is the Scout, perhaps beacsue it has the simplest plinth.) The Rega P7 and the WT both do a better job of dispersing energy, and so sound fleeter and more rhythmic. Some find them light in the bass. I find them more natural and better flowing.

I tried to suggest a balanced system for the long haul. But both tables will sound great if you want to upgrade the cartridge (like Dyna's XX2 MkII) or phone stage. I think neither will limit you in the long run.

Agree with the posters to buy used but..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 18:22:43
travisty
Audiophile

Posts: 547
Location: Tokyo
Joined: April 2, 2003
 I think that I would personally recommend starting at a lot lower level, buying used, getting a really good protractor (and for kicks, doing a download off vinyl engine or elsewhere for a more basic one), and then going out to hit garage sales and pick up every record you find that you want to listen to that you can buy for less than a dollar. Learn how to set up the table yourself, with all the guidance available here, and on a variety of websites, and then spin records.

To me, starting into that with a very light heart and intentionally doing so with a limited budget is extremely instructive.

Make sure you have a solid rack/table, and or some kind of isolation platform. If you have one in use elsewhere, "borrow it" from another part of your system. Turntables are at heart a completely mechanical system, at one point turning mechanical energy changes into electrical impulse. The only way to make the mechanical-electrical interface work really really well is by making sure there is nothing else interfering. For lots of people that will mean a suspended TT or a TT with really good isolation (which can be found using isolation footers).

If you like vinyl with a very good $1000-1500 setup (and there are some fabulous motor+plinth+arm setups at that price on Agon if you buy used), then you can sell it for not too much less, and then spend more on the next round - and believe me, you will. A decent cart will cost you $300-500, and if you eventually spend more, you can use that cart as well, or you can sell it.

If, on the other hand, you find that you have spent more time than you want to spend just to listen to music, and the rewards are not worth it, there will be substantially less buyer's remorse when you decide to unload.

Do it all with a light heart and you will enjoy it a lot more.

As for technologies (belt drive, idler, direct drive, suspended, unsuspended), there are two ways about it. You can read a lot about it, and then choose what seems most suited to your philosophy, or you can just go ahead and choose one which people generally recommend and figure it out later (and it might take 3 tables to understand what you really like (just like it might take someone three CDPs (buy the first, decide to switch, then decide you liked the first better))). Top implementations of all of the above technologies all provide for great setups.

RE: Agree with the posters to buy used but..., posted on November 8, 2009 at 09:08:07
BlackBeastofAaaagh
 Thanks for all the great info.

Actually I didn't even consider the isolation angle. I am glad you brought that up. My system is kept in a finished basement with a cement slab floor. I currently keep my components on a wood and steel rod constructed Sanus rack. I only listen between 80 to 90dB but I do feel some mild vibrations on the top shelf of the rack.

I know that there are a bunch of isolation blocks touted on the market, some with crazy prices. Would the easiest route be: a better equipment rack, or a heavy block and footer combo. I have often read that suspended TTs tend to mush up the sound compared to their rigid brethren.

Personally, I seem to prefer unsuspended and massy TTs but..., posted on November 9, 2009 at 04:32:24
travisty
Audiophile

Posts: 547
Location: Tokyo
Joined: April 2, 2003
 I think a lot more of the goodness is in the implementation than in the choice of technology.

For me, I live in earthquake territory, so the buildings are meant to withstand earthquakes, and so they are structurally a bit flexible. And because I live in a city, there is a fair bit of environmental vibration too, so I find with and without isolation to be a big difference (like spending a lot more on a table).

I have a passive air isolation table that I bought in an internet auction sold by a liquidator of office/lab equipment and it previously sat under a microscope or a piece of test equipment. If you buy the audiophile branded one new, it will cost you well into four figures. If you buy the non-audiophile branded version, they are occasionally available for a song. For the lab-based ones, you have to check how much they need to carry. They have a recommended weight range, which is not 0-100kg for a 50kg item but something like 40-80kg, and you may need to put a block of wood and/or a piece of steel plate on it to "load" the isolation device. If you find something for sale, check the specs, and ask the mfr if they still offer parts, and then you're good (usually they do). If you need to make it pretty, you could put a wood frame around it of appropriate height, and a "plank" of appropriately finished wood over the top leaving only a small area between the frame and the "top plate" and you have a beautiful base for your table too.

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries!, posted on November 7, 2009 at 18:15:40
Sondek
Audiophile

Posts: 1072
Location: Ft. Worth
Joined: May 17, 2000
 Some very good recommendations already posted so I won't offer any others. My only advice is to buy something that has a good/solid upgrade path, and stick to manufacturers that are likely to be in it for the long haul.

Sondek has a good point..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 18:31:00
travisty
Audiophile

Posts: 547
Location: Tokyo
Joined: April 2, 2003
 If you are just starting out, choose something from a mfr still in business or something where repairs are possible (i.e. Lenco, Thorens, or Garrard are not in business per se, but there are lots of people who know how to repair them and will do so for a fee).

The upgrade path is something I am less familiar with, and am more suspicious of as a good value way to get the job done - I find it a bit more like paying in installments.

RE: Sondek has a good point..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 19:54:20
Sondek
Audiophile

Posts: 1072
Location: Ft. Worth
Joined: May 17, 2000
 I do understand your point of view of the upgrade path and don't necessarily disagree. What I have issue with is the need to too often, throw the baby out with the bathwater when the need or desire for somethng better arises. Some folks like to have something completely different every so often, and I understand that. For me, I see more value in an upgrade path and it often makes more sense when you can't afford the top of the line right now.

I don't think we disagree..., posted on November 8, 2009 at 00:08:57
travisty
Audiophile

Posts: 547
Location: Tokyo
Joined: April 2, 2003
 I think there IS value in the upgrade path and the fact that it exists. It gives some people a lot of comfort. I also (you can see my other post on this thread) recommend, even for people who have the money, that it might be of use to start low on the chain.

As to my issue with the upgrade path.... I am just cheap. On the other hand, if I were a manufacturer, I would most certainly build TTs which had a great deal of interchange-ability, and to which I could offer several upgrade pieces and paths.

Keep the same basic structure, and make bearings, spindles, platters, motors, isolation, etc, all interchangeable - then sell the incremental pieces - don't even require that they be sent all the way back - make it easy to DIY. The person who loses the most value in that case however is the person who is just going from Step1 to Step2. Very few people are going to want the first level "pieces" by themselves - if you make the second stage clearly better than the first stage, then there will be very few who deliberately backtrack...

RE: Planning to buy my first vinyl set-up. Have a budget of ~ $5000, posted on November 7, 2009 at 16:42:54
fini
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: No. CA
Joined: August 2, 2002
 I'd start by picking up this JuicyMusic Blueberry Xtreme for $1375 on Audiogon. I have one of these marvelous machines, and Mark Deneen can upgrade it for MC cartridge use (or you can go with an outboard SUT...that's what I did).

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1262706657&/Juicy-Music-Blueberry-Extreme-
RE: Planning to buy my first vinyl set-up. Have a budget of ~ $5000, posted on November 7, 2009 at 15:13:36
The Keester
Audiophile

Posts: 6
Location: NY
Joined: August 29, 2009
 Audiogon is your friend. If I bought my system new or through Ebay I would have paid about 40% more.

My setup thats a dream to listen to -

Michell Gyro 'SE' mk2 > Hadcock 242> Grado 'The Reference'
Mcintosh MX110z > Mcintosh MC225
Harbeth Compact 7ES-3s
HSU-STF1 Sub

By the way budget in $550 for a VPI record cleaning machine,

RE: Of Course Everybody Is Going To Have A Different Idea, So, Here Goes:, posted on November 7, 2009 at 13:43:14
Vinylly
 Nottingham Analog Space Deck, with Arm: $3,000.00
Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood (mm) $800.00
Musical Surroundings Phonomena : $600.00

You have $600 to spare to buy some good LP's.

Another Option:
Nottingham Analog Horizon with Arm: $2,100.00
Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood (mm) $800.00
AcoustTech PH1-P Phono stage $1,500.00

You still have $600 to spare to buy some good LP's. The second option you buy a less turntable for a better phono preamp.

(My own system: Nottingham Analog SpaceDeck with RB-900 arm, Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood cart. and AccoustTech PH1 phono stage. So my suggestion is based around my own system, so I know it will be good.)

I think a, posted on November 7, 2009 at 15:04:36
Muzikmike
Reviewer

Posts: 7320
Location: SoCentral PA
Joined: December 19, 2007
Contributor
  Since: August 5, 2008
 Sony turntable: $110.00
this cartridge (cut and paste) $10.00

http://cgi.ebay.com/TURNTABLE-NEEDLE-Sony-PS-LX70-PSLX70-PS-LX700-PSLX700_W0QQitemZ350270014338QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20091026?IMSfp=TL091026194006r23305

with this link to the correct phono stage.


There is no such thing as too many records.
There is just too little room for them!
Isn't that--um--, posted on November 7, 2009 at 16:20:54
Jim Austin
Reviewer

Posts: 491
Location: Northern New England
Joined: November 8, 2007
 a LITTLE beyond the specified price range? :_)
http://www.jazz-etc.com
You know...you're right., posted on November 7, 2009 at 17:07:52
Muzikmike
Reviewer

Posts: 7320
Location: SoCentral PA
Joined: December 19, 2007
Contributor
  Since: August 5, 2008
 It was the devil that made me do it.

I tried to keep it under by just getting a modest table and cart, though.


There is no such thing as too many records.
There is just too little room for them!
Some things to consider, posted on November 7, 2009 at 13:21:01
politics fan
 DO SOME SEARCHES HERE - LOTS OF THEM

This is a "Boring" topic to many on this site
- and many have posted before and no longer post
- so spend some time and search and read - take notes.
You will soon learn who the real studs are and the pretenders.


I'm closer to the pretender group, but
played a lot vinyl in the 80's and 90's
- my equipment shows this, BTW.


Used vs. New - ask yourself if you have the temperment/patience/persistence to pursue used gear.
If so, then prepare to troll ebay, audiogon, etc. for price info, etc.

I won't comment on new - little experience.

USED

A $5k budget can buy the equal of $10k new.

Many have commented here that lightly used or new-old-stock (NOS) pickups
are often a great value - I agree - I am running a mid-90's Ortofon MC200 NOS
borrowed from a friend in a Fidelity Research FR64S - on a beat up late-80s-SOTA Sapphire.
It sounds killer - not at all like the "Cool" Ort sound I remember from the 80's.
I have a rare very-high-gain Cotter MK2L MC transformer driving an ARC SP-6A (both of those from around 1980).

The MC200 cost less than $300.

Cable is mid-90s Audioquest Emerald - which you can get used cheap.
I'm sure there are many others.

TABLE/ARM/PICKUP BUDGET

Spend at least 50% on table, and at least 30% on arm.
This leaves less than 20% for the pickup. A $3600 table/arm
will make a $400 pickup sound like a champ.

ARMS WITH UNIVERSAL HEADSHELLS

This allows you variety. Two pickups are more than twice as fun as one.
I think you can still get a cherry Fidelity Research FR64FX for around $1000-1300
and Sumiko Headshells for $50-$60. The 64FX is lower mass than my 64S -
and will work well with a greater range of pickups.

A brand new Jelco SA-750D is well-regarded here - and is well under $1000.

PREAMP
Get one with adjustable loading - resistance and capacitance,
especially if you go with multiple cartridges.
Capacitance is important with MM pickups.
Resistance is important with MCs

MC TRANSFORMER
I believe a good MC transformer will greatly widen
the possibilities for a phono stage - especially for
older, lower gain preamps. A MM preamp with a transformer
will reliably drive any line stage or power amp. I could
never use my SP6A with my 0.09mV Ortfon without the Cotter.

PICKUPS
I like MC pickups - but really like the Grado moving-iron high output cartridges. I think Shure MM's sound boring.


TYPE OF MUSIC

I believe that if you are mostly a rock/pop listener
you may compromise with a relatively modest pickup budget.
The extra money on a more costly pickup will yield rewards with
acoustic music - esp. if you attend live unamplified concerts.

(Pearson/TAS is right about this).

SETUP

Not only the table/arm - but the rack/table under the TT - and the right place for rack/table - do a search on this - the part of the room with the least problematic bass is a good place for the rack.

HAVE FUN - BUY LOTS OF RECORDS

Good Luck
RE: Planning to buy my first vinyl set-up. Have a budget of ~ $5000, posted on November 7, 2009 at 12:14:36
Tao
 A VPI Classic or Scoutmaster, a Dynavector 20x cartridge, VPI phono cables and that leaves you around 1500 for the phono stage solution of your choice.

When the Scout first came out I bought it, a Benz wood cartridge and a used Jadis phono stage for under what you're planning on spending and it was a great sounding combination.

RE: Planning to buy my first vinyl set-up. Have a budget of ~ $5000, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:24:03
cactuscowboy@bresnan.net
Audiophile

Posts: 2879
Location: Powell, Wyoming
Joined: July 23, 2007
 IMO you won't need to spend anything close to $5K for a killer vinyl set-up, but it's your money.

In response to your question, I've budgeted approximately:

60% turntable
20% cartridge
20% phono preamp

As for "sweet spot" of money spent before diminishing returns?

In my case, I spent $1,500 on a KAB Technics SL-1200MK5 (with many mods) & cartridge, and would not consider replacing it with turntables costing 2-3 times as much.

Keep in mind you could buy a helluva lot of records for $2-$3K versus sinking it all into gear.
I was just talking to a friend about a guy I'd met that had, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:56:41
Muzikmike
Reviewer

Posts: 7320
Location: SoCentral PA
Joined: December 19, 2007
Contributor
  Since: August 5, 2008
 a fabulous system and had about 10 LPs he played on it because they sounded so good.

Just 10...all Mantovani LPs. Yep, they do sound great.


There is no such thing as too many records.
There is just too little room for them!
SOFTWARE!!!!, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:16:52
Munkie_NL
Audiophile

Posts: 3609
Location: Netherlands
Joined: August 24, 2003
 I have read NOTHING about the kind of music you like. Do you have a good record collection worthy of expensive playback equipent? I mean REAL analog 50's/60's/70's records. In NM condition, in good inner covers. No? What music do you like to hear on vinyl? Can you get good original records in your neighbourhood? No? Then you'll have to order them online and unseen. Read the posts here. Reissues? Read the posts here. There's a lot of debate whether new vinyl reissues are worth buying. I now only see good classical and opera records for next to nothing, mostly standard repertoire. No jazz, no blues, no pop, no rock.

About hardware. Buy a (very) good phono preamp and a decent IC cable. A decent new cartridge with a new original stylus. A decent used TT, Thorens, rebuilt Lenco, rebuilt Garrard 301/401, a good Dual, the better Japanese DD's. Setup and placement are critical. New inner covers, record cleaning set, brushes, test record, stylus force gauge, magnifying glass, alignment protractor. Read up on setup, placement, record care, collecting, labels. It's more a matter of learning than throwing money at it. This year i found a complete and working Thorens TD150mk2 on a flea market for a song. With a Denon Dl-103 cart from my drawer it killed my CDP with a good record.

"The torture never stops"

Greetings Freek.
RE: SOFTWARE!!!!... I very valid point, posted on November 8, 2009 at 09:47:12
BlackBeastofAaaaagh
 I listen mostly to a mix of classic rock, hard-rock and Jazz (e.g. Jacques Loussier, Brubeck, Coltrane, Miles, Mingus et al.) with a smaller percentage of metal. I am starting to acquire a taste in chamber music though.

I currently don't own any LPs. However recently I have started seeing plenty of reissues from classic rock and popular jazz performers from companies like Acoustic Sounds. I indeed plan to do some searches on this forum (before I take the plunge) to see if these records are any good. I live near the NYC area and I believe that there ought to be several good places to get used LPs.

As such I don't see myself duplicating my entire CD collection of +1000, Only those that I feel are worth paying $+30 an LP.

On the surface of it though, even if the original source if digital (post 85 era) it would seem to me that the higher bit-depth and sampling rate of the master should give these new LP better sound than LPs. I have really gotten tired of waiting for some high resolution digital format to take off in any meaningful way. I will have to research this further.

Correction to prior message, posted on November 8, 2009 at 09:52:56
BlackBeastofAaaaagh
 I made a typo.
>even if the original source if digital (post 85 era) it would seem to me that the higher bit-depth and sampling rate of the master should give these new LP better sound than LPs.

even if the original source is digital (post 85 era) it would seem to me that the higher bit-depth and sampling rate of the master should give these new digital sources LPs better sound than standard 16bit/44.1k CDs.
RE: SOFTWARE!!!!, posted on November 7, 2009 at 13:18:45
mikeyc8
Audiophile

Posts: 41
Location: Canada
Joined: April 13, 2008
 That was the harsh truth. I agree completely. If you're into music that was digitally recorded in the 80s and 90s it will be a waste to splurge on $5k on an analog system. If you like jazz or classical from the 50s to 60s then you're in for a treat!
totally agree, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:46:54
il toro
Audiophile

Posts: 92
Location: Bristol
Joined: January 21, 2004
 Unless you've got a loft full of old LPs, a decent record collection will cost you far more than you plan to spend on kit. I recently did my home insurance valuation and found exactly that (far more than my whole system in fact).

Yes, I do realise this awful truth, posted on November 8, 2009 at 10:23:53
BlackBeastofAaaaagh
 Yes, you are frightfully correct. I do indeed realise that with today's prices for re-issues ($25 to $35) I may indeed exceed the cost of the vinyl rig itself. However, after I gain some experience I would probably go down the used LP route as well.

I have been aware for some time regarding the superiority of LP sound. Unfortunately my dad threw away his collection before I could rescue them from the trash pile and I would be starting from square one. The only thing that held me back all these years from buying an LP rig was the paultry choice of reissued LPs. However in recent years vinyl seems to be enjoying a serious revival. I now see a pretty impressive list of Classic Rock, and Jazz material being re-issued from several companies like Acousticsounds. This is what has gotten me thinking about taking the plunge as vinyl plunge.
RE: Planning to buy my first vinyl set-up. Have a budget of ~ $5000, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:13:02
AudioDoctor
Audiophile

Posts: 666
Location: Minnesota
Joined: March 25, 2008
 A fully KAB modified SL 1200 and a decent cartridge suitable to your tastes would probably leave a good chunk available for other equipment, and make you very happy with your sound.

Happiness is a clean record, and warm tubes!
A better link, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:55:47
VynylTap
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: USA - SouthEast
Joined: November 16, 2007
 KAB makes it hard to post links to the correct page due to the way the site uses frames, try this one...

My recomendation would be a SL-1200MK2 with:
- TD-1200 Fluid Damper
- PS-1200 Outboard Power Supply
- Tonearm rewire to Cardas 5-pin DIN
- Isonoe Feet.

Total $1,272 plus shipping... spend the rest on a good phono-stage (a Hagerman or Bottlhead are great), a nice DIN phono cable, and run whatever cartridge you desire (I'm currently being blown away by the top-end Nagaoka's)

Spend the rest on records...


"I'll play it and tell you what it is later..." - Miles Davis
RE: A better link, posted on November 7, 2009 at 17:15:27
AudioDoctor
Audiophile

Posts: 666
Location: Minnesota
Joined: March 25, 2008
 I agree with that, but based on some of the measurements posted by, I think, JimK the other week I would also add on the strobe disabler, perhaps even instead of the outboard PSU.

Happiness is a clean record, and warm tubes!
The strobe disabler now comes standard with the outboard PSU. (nt), posted on November 7, 2009 at 18:31:31
VynylTap
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: USA - SouthEast
Joined: November 16, 2007
 .


"I'll play it and tell you what it is later..." - Miles Davis
really?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 18:52:37
AudioDoctor
Audiophile

Posts: 666
Location: Minnesota
Joined: March 25, 2008
 I had no idea, cool.

Happiness is a clean record, and warm tubes!
Skip the Supratek, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:08:59
3Fates
Audiophile

Posts: 822
Joined: December 8, 2000
 I bought into the A'gon hype and bought a Chenin a few years ago. Sold it after a few months. There are much better preamps with phono out there for the money.

Love my Supratek!, posted on November 7, 2009 at 12:37:09
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 1321
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004
 As they say, everything else is system dependent.

There are two versions of the Chenin that I know of. Mine have the 6922/6C4 phono, without linestage main gain switch but with independent balance control for each channel. May I ask which version you have?

Abe
DIY, all the time!
RE: Love my Supratek!, posted on November 7, 2009 at 16:22:36
Steelhead
Audiophile

Posts: 271
Location: AK
Joined: December 11, 2003
 I have the 6922/6c4 version Chenin and LOVE IT.

If there is a better pre for the money you need to bring it by my house, hook it up, and Prove it. I will put that Chenin up for a shootout any day of the week.

Mine is out right now getting new oil/film caps installed by Mike Samra.

The poster looking into a Cortese is definitely on the right trail for some trophy level big game.

For the poster: Get the Cortese and your front end is set and for your vinyl outlay: buy a used SOTA with vac (STAR), buy a used FR arm, buy a new Ortofon coil, and spin baby spin.

Worry about records later. You will always find them and be buying them. Hell, buy your record vac and cleaners now and start hanging out at the Salvation Army for the 50 centers.

Have FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Huh? What did I say?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 17:13:32
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 1321
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004

If there is a better pre for the money you need to bring it by my house, hook it up, and Prove it. I will put that Chenin up for a shootout any day of the week.


Can't do it! You are in AK and I am in Southern California! Too far. This is not "mine is better than yours" contest but if it so happens that you are within driving distance where I am at, I can bring my DIY preamp (<$750) and will take your offer. My DIY preamp has phono too.

I kept my Chenin after all these years because I really like it. I responded to the thread that I "Love my Supratek" and did not mention anything about another preamp of mine is better. I am really puzzled by your response. Maybe I misunderstood its content and if so, I apologize.


Abe
DIY, all the time!
RE: Huh? What did I say?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 20:49:06
Steelhead
Audiophile

Posts: 271
Location: AK
Joined: December 11, 2003
 Sorry Abe,

I had to rush to the defense of the tek as my skirts were in a lather.

I know you are handy with the soldering iron and are a capable diy'er and I think you have some cool turntable projects completed if memory serves. I should have posted to 3fates instead of under your moniker. apologies.

The poster is considering a Cortese and so obviously knows the brand, etc., hence my instant defense of the brand.

Hey if you ever make it up, please bring it over and I will be happy to compare and contrast. We have a small but active group up here and are always up for listening sessions.

Apologies!!!!!!!!!!

All is cool!, posted on November 7, 2009 at 23:09:36
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 1321
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004
 No need for the apologies! We are in this hobby together. Just want to make sure that I did not post anything on my response earlier that I will regret later if ever.

I have the DIY preamp. That was the reason I know its estimated cost. It sounds great like the Supratek! Better? Maybe, maybe not. It depends since of course, system matching plays into the equation and the difference in preference of how an equipment should sound from one listener to the other should also be considered.

regards,

Abe
DIY, all the time!
I think he was responding to what 3Fates said about the Supratek. nt, posted on November 7, 2009 at 18:04:58
Rick W
Audiophile

Posts: 6107
Joined: October 3, 2001
 nt

RE: I think he was responding to what 3Fates said about the Supratek. nt, posted on November 7, 2009 at 23:00:16
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 1321
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004
 Thanks!

regards,

Abe
DIY, all the time!
RE: 'Start Hanging Out At The Salvation Army':, posted on November 7, 2009 at 16:32:14
Vinylly
 Maybe he dosn't like just 'Mantovani'.

RE: 'Start Hanging Out At The Salvation Army':, posted on November 7, 2009 at 20:52:20
Steelhead
Audiophile

Posts: 271
Location: AK
Joined: December 11, 2003
 Neil Diamond - Hot August Night 1.00

Suzanne Vega - debut - .50

George Benson - Breezin - .50 and a mofi to boot.

All Salvation Army and all cleaned up nicely.

However, your right there is an awful lot of dreck to find jewels.

Sota Jewel/SME 309/Wright Audio PH-2/NOS B&O MMC-2 or Soundsmith Aida..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:01:24
tweakk
Audiophile

Posts: 113
Joined: October 3, 2009
 I only have the MMC-2 but think the combo wouldn't be disappointing.

Just say'n

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