Why no low-compliance Hi-Fi MM cartridges?...nt

RE: Why no low-compliance Hi-Fi MM cartridges?...nt, posted on November 9, 2009 at 15:43:30
MylesJ Audiophile Posts: 659 Location: Oregon Joined: October 25, 2001	Some of the HOMC carts are on the stiff side. IIRC the Ortofon X5 is 13 and the LOMC Rohmann is 12.

That's right..., posted on November 9, 2009 at 16:33:10
tweakk Audiophile Posts: 113 Joined: October 3, 2009	The Rohmann is out of my price range but thanks for bringing up the X5. I have to remember that one. I've read some people like the X3 better with the fine-line stylus instead of the FG.

RE: That's right..., posted on November 10, 2009 at 10:23:15

MylesJ
Audiophile

Posts: 659
Location: Oregon
Joined: October 25, 2001

I went from an OM-30 (also fine line and very high compliance) to the X5 MC on my P3/RB300 Rega. The X5 has better extension at both ends and better bass. I did have to add some head weight to the arm to get the X5MC to sound right. With the extra weight, tympani are clear and strong, baritone sax rips, etc.

I had an X1 years ago on a Philips 212 which I liked but my system is in a different class now. I've never used an X3

RE: Why no low-compliance Hi-Fi MM cartridges?...nt, posted on November 7, 2009 at 10:09:18
jweiss Manufacturer Posts: 366 Location: Pennsylvania Joined: November 1, 2000	There is one made now- the Soundsmith Sussuro. Disclaimer- I sell it. Jonathan

And loverly it is...., posted on November 7, 2009 at 10:25:23

tweakk
Audiophile

Posts: 113
Joined: October 3, 2009

I saw it last week when looking at re-tip stuff. If you just give me one I'll paint your house/wash your car/walk your dog...

I have a couple of Stanton 980LZS cartridges and am not happy with my choices of styli. What's the deal with having these fitted with your ruby cantilever and super duper stylus?

Do you re-use the original suspension or can you adjust that?

I saw someone who had you re-tip his Stanton but said that it resulted in a tipped-up high-end. was the voicing of the cartridge skewed by the re-tip or was he just hearing what was missing before?

RE: And loverly it is...., posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:24:42

jweiss
Manufacturer

Posts: 366
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: November 1, 2000

OMA (Owaldsmill Audio) represents Soundsmith cartridges, but we do not do retipping- we refer our clients to Soundsmith directly for that service. Peter Ledermann does all the retipping himself. Regarding the increased top end of your friend's cartridge, certainly a more sophisticated stylus profile will produce more high frequency information than a conical profile. Some might refer to that as tipped up, others will enjoy the benefit of hearing more of the information in their music.

Jonathan

Like the Pickering P/AT-1?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 09:45:12
olddude55 Audiophile Posts: 25151 Location: Pittsburgh Joined: July 12, 2003	I'm pretty sure this old beastie has a conical stylus, tracks at 2 - 5 grams, etc. I've had one knocking around the cartridge box for years. Finally got it out last week, put it on the Rabco's spare arm wand and let fly. And was very pleasantly surprised indeed. ___ From the Industrial Hub of the Mid-Mon Valley!

Yeah I read that. No pre-amp needed eh?...nt, posted on November 7, 2009 at 10:27:02
tweakk Audiophile Posts: 113 Joined: October 3, 2009	nt

No, pre-amp needed for RIAA EQ and gain...however,..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 12:40:12
Interstage Tranny Audiophile Posts: 1407 Location: Eastern Joined: October 4, 2006	...the PAT is a derivative from the Pickering V15, itself a derivative of the Pickering Seeburg carts from the jukebox world. Their output is large but still need a phono preamp/EQ. But, Henry, who listens to the stylus ?

I'm going to try one connected to crystal earphones just for kicks...nt, posted on November 7, 2009 at 12:51:30
tweakk Audiophile Posts: 113 Joined: October 3, 2009	nt

Almost no amp needed., posted on November 7, 2009 at 10:57:49
olddude55 Audiophile Posts: 25151 Location: Pittsburgh Joined: July 12, 2003	There's noise from the stylus tracking the record, you can clearly hear the music play with the volume turned all the way down. ___ From the Industrial Hub of the Mid-Mon Valley!

Who listens to their tonearm ?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 12:43:21
Interstage Tranny Audiophile Posts: 1407 Location: Eastern Joined: October 4, 2006	LOL... With the right stylus, those carts do not have lots of acoustical groove noise. There are literally millions of record collectors using these PICKERING V15 and Stanton 500 brethren carts.

Me., posted on November 7, 2009 at 12:59:59
olddude55 Audiophile Posts: 25151 Location: Pittsburgh Joined: July 12, 2003	Unintentionally of course. I'm not knockin' the Pickering; it handled three out of four badly trashed LPs (the fourth was too bad to play for any cartridge) and it sounded pretty good doing it. ___ From the Industrial Hub of the Mid-Mon Valley!

Yeah, Groove Noise can annoy..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 13:07:04
Interstage Tranny Audiophile Posts: 1407 Location: Eastern Joined: October 4, 2006	...Lots O' Laughs...Enjoy !

DJ cartridges, posted on November 7, 2009 at 08:46:23
jrtrent Audiophile Posts: 645 Joined: September 1, 2001	Most DJ models are in the 6 to 12 μm/mN range. People often dismiss them for music listening, but they make a good, economical match for heavier arms and really can sound quite nice.

Fooling with a Pickering VX-15/150DJ and a Shure M35X, posted on November 7, 2009 at 09:15:07
tweakk Audiophile Posts: 113 Joined: October 3, 2009	I love the high-output and fat, punchy sound not to mention the price. The inner groove distortion from the conical stylus can be a bit distracting on some material though.

Pickering XV-15 ..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 12:52:51

Interstage Tranny
Audiophile

Posts: 1407
Location: Eastern
Joined: October 4, 2006

...Inner Groove distortion is a multi-function problem. Could be the stylus, cart mounting, arm quality causing this. On the other hand, are you playing discs that may have used an inferior stylus prior to your owning those discs ? Maybe, check into a .4 x .7 version elliptical ?

I know my nude-mounted, diamond conical tipped, Pickering Stanton 380 has no problem with inner grooves, even tracking at 3+ grams. It's not hard to find a nude-mounted elliptical stylus for the XV-15 family; only pricey. That will help...but might not sound as sweet as a conical...Pickering XV-15 and Stanton 681 carts are very acceptable classics.

I might be exagerating..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 13:11:57

tweakk
Audiophile

Posts: 113
Joined: October 3, 2009

I really don't hear obvious distortion but seemingly a wee bit lack of goodness. Whatever that means. I hear this on new and mint looking used disks. I have a Pro-ject 6.9 and use a Dennesen Soundtractor to set-up the cart. I do have my doubts about the Pro-ject 9R arms string and weight anti-skate. Not much to adjust and not too precise.

Would a Jico conical be anything better that the stock stylus?

Any opinion on the Stanton 980LZS? I have two NOS bodies that need styli.

Thanks.

Probably the high(er) VTF thang., posted on November 7, 2009 at 07:56:23
Opus 104 Audiophile Posts: 2720 Location: Northern Virginia Joined: June 13, 2008 Contributor Since: July 20, 2008	Most low compliance carts reside in the higher VTF regions, scaring away the great unwashed masses who equate quality with a sub 1 gr VTF. "It was a dark and stormy night. I had taken a creative writing course." – Crow T. Robot, MST 3000.

RE: Probably the high(er) VTF thang., posted on November 7, 2009 at 10:06:10

Bry
Audiophile

Posts: 3228
Location: S. Florida
Joined: July 21, 2005

Most low compliance carts reside in the higher VTF regions, scaring away the great unwashed masses who equate quality with a sub 1 gr VTF.

I don't necessarily equate quality with VTF, but I don't see how a stylus assembly that requires 1g to stay put in the groove and one that requires twice that force can both be equally good for the vinyl. Given two comparable cartridges, I'd rather have the one that tracks with less force. Actually, I'd also like to have the one that's less likely to mis-track when set-up properly.

Why not a problem with low compliance MCs?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 09:18:56
tweakk Audiophile Posts: 113 Joined: October 3, 2009	I haven't looked into the numbers but can MC low compliance MC cartridges pull off lower VTF due to less moving mass?

Dunno. But I haven't run into a light tracking low compliance, posted on November 7, 2009 at 09:21:33
Opus 104 Audiophile Posts: 2720 Location: Northern Virginia Joined: June 13, 2008 Contributor Since: July 20, 2008	MC yet. Most all are > 2gr. "It was a dark and stormy night. I had taken a creative writing course." – Crow T. Robot, MST 3000.

light tracking low compliance carts ? What's the problem with 2+ gram tracking ?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 12:36:02

Interstage Tranny
Audiophile

Posts: 1407
Location: Eastern
Joined: October 4, 2006

Definitely, there are not too many of those, especially mc type.

What is the problem with 2-4 gram tracking, folks ? And, why aren't the manufacturers letting us know that a conical/spherical or gently sloped elliptical tip, with a heavier duty stylus assembly, might be best for average condition discs' longevity ? For all that believe hyper elliptical tips are superior for eliciting information from the grooves, there are, oh so many more, record collectors who could not be without their standard conicals or .4 x .7 mil ellipticals. Scientific testing has proved this and that; but, the conical seems to last and live longer without wear, much longer than equivalent ellipticals. Everyone of us using period gear to play period records knows the enjoyable results when their 40+ year old mono and stereo carts can still perform admirably.

Early mono Lp or 45 RPM discs were never manufactured presuming less than 6 gram tracking force, until after 1957. Pickering had some mono carts that actually tracked at 2 grams around then. But, their real life, in today's terms, has meant that the ubiquitous '50s vintage GE RPX and GE VRII carts(tracking at 6 and 4-6 grams respectfully) have stood the test of time better. I can't imagine any vintage record collector not using a GE RPX-050, with their familiar, red knob, push and turn, stylus changing mechie tracking at 6 grams with mellow tone, as their reference pre-'60s mono cart, especially for average condition discs. Sure, there is much competition, both young and old, even using stereo carts(connected in parallel or as series aiding coils). I have many cart choices that can work admirably, some with definitely more details. But, when 78s or scratchy 45s are spinning, I need my RPX with sapphire tips. But, that's another story. The RPX with diamonds is still sure sweet, though.

Any record collector knows that clean records need a clean stylus for longevity of each other. Undoubtedly, the elliptical, hyper-elliptical, Shibata, line contact et al tips can elicit more details, especially for the cleanest stereo discs. A clean, or even very scratchy early 33 or 45 disc, might benefit from playback with a hyper-elliptical. But, those same scratchy discs will more likely sound better with a conical; and of course, a sapphire tipped conical, for the scratchiest discs.

Hey, did everyone see the most recent Ortofon SPU mono, with an LP/45 mono 1 mil sapphire tip on the bay ? $689, folks, for a mono mc cart from the '50s-'60s that still needs a headamp or step-up tranny before the preamp? Diamond tipped mono SPUs have not fetched much more, recently. Amazed ? I know I was...

But, back to stereo and vintage, or modern, carts...Don't be afraid to use 2+ gram tracking. I know it comes down to a personal philosophy thing and it's hard to be objective about heavier mass tracking and heavier arms and tables, but the enjoyment factor is definitely still there, along with longevity. Keep on Spinnin'

Never said there was a problem. /nt\, posted on November 7, 2009 at 16:03:02
Opus 104 Audiophile Posts: 2720 Location: Northern Virginia Joined: June 13, 2008 Contributor Since: July 20, 2008	"It was a dark and stormy night. I had taken a creative writing course." – Crow T. Robot, MST 3000.

Hmm, I doubt that. Non-audiophiles probably have no idea what constitutes high or low compliance/VTF. nt, posted on November 7, 2009 at 08:59:35
Rick W Audiophile Posts: 6110 Joined: October 3, 2001	nt

My point exactly. The UMs only look at VTF. /nt\, posted on November 7, 2009 at 09:23:44
Opus 104 Audiophile Posts: 2720 Location: Northern Virginia Joined: June 13, 2008 Contributor Since: July 20, 2008	"It was a dark and stormy night. I had taken a creative writing course." – Crow T. Robot, MST 3000.

Convention?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 07:36:36
Axon Audiophile Posts: 339 Location: Austin, TX Joined: December 20, 2005	But count me in for being equally interested in such a cartridge.

Plenty Available in the Vintage World; Don't be afraid to go very vintage..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 09:13:34

Interstage Tranny
Audiophile

Posts: 1407
Location: Eastern
Joined: October 4, 2006

...like early stereo vintage, late '50s to early '60s. Yes, your dreams can be realized with a forty plus year old cartridge. Tracking forces for these lie between 2 to 4 grams. Mounting can be a PITA as some are heavy and others require tall spacers. However, I assure you that this old gear still competes. Moreover, the fear for hardened suspensions is more likely to be had from '70s and '80s and '90s offerings. Yes, you read that right. Shure has proven to us that their rubber dampers were/are made with shitty quality rubber. The rubber from the '60s is fine ! Rarely do the very vintage units harden.

So, which to choose from ?

B&O made a Stereodyne II marketed by Dynaco, also known as the SP-2. It has great character, a little plumby in the bass and slightly raised upper highs. Jazz and rock fiends love these carts. Their spatial soundstage info is fantastic.

Empire made the 108 and 88, which are rich in high freq info.

Elac had the 200, 210, 222, 240. These have a raised high freq tilt, so can sound bright and slightly forward to some. However, the right one in the right system has incredible speed, authority, and 3D that is palpable. Unfortunately, they like 3.5 plus grams of tracking pressure. The green 222 is my fave, with the gray 240 as the mellowest of this bunch. The mid sixties red 322 offered a rare elliptical stylus. It is even brighter than the green 222. Conicals are the norm for this era, probably the best for average condition discs.

Grado made some rare early stereo offerings. Good Luck finding them...

Pickering, ahh, Pickering, who also made Stanton. My all time fave mm cart is the 1960-'68 Stanton 380. These require 3 plus grams of tracking force and since they weigh 14 grams and have a tilted body, require tall spacers and patience in mounting; well worth any efforts. Sonically very fast, with a a very natural flavor. Known for mellow highs, these are so juicy sounding. Acoustical instruments love this cart, as do female vocals. Any classical fan should check this one out. Surprisingly, these sound close to Ortofon SPU world ref mc carts. Their budget offering for this vintage, a Pickering U38, is very close to the 380 sound. There is little difference between the gold or black bodied 380s. The special silver body 381 and 481 are extremely obscure Calibration Standard versions. The 481 might even come with a rare brown elliptical stylus. These Cal. Std. carts are even more revealing up top, definitely not as sweeet and mellow as the 380; Bargain of the '60s. Later Pickering XV-15 carts can mimic these for mellow sweetness, but have much lower output.

Shure M3D and M7D and M7-21D are also bargains that fit the low compliance realm. Some prefer these over Shure's later offerings, not surprising to me...Their only shortcoming is the lack of depth, comnpared to Pickering/Stanton.

Decca ffss, 4RC et al. Fussy and heavyweight trackers. Many peers are literally enthralled with the sonics and speed of these. I prefer the Elacs.

Probably, the best bargain here would be a Pickering XV-15 with a conical or 450E or 625E stylus. For late '60s and seventies vintage aficionados, the lowly Pickering V-15 is a great choice for all types of discs, especially average condition, as in scratchy, discs. Collectability has increased the Elac and Decca prices, as well as the Shure M3D. B&O is still a bargain, as are the Pickering Stanton 380 and Shure M7D. The M7D sounds identical to the 3D ! Get these carts while you can. They are migrating overseas at a scary speed...

gah, waet., posted on November 7, 2009 at 10:18:20
Axon Audiophile Posts: 339 Location: Austin, TX Joined: December 20, 2005	tweakk said low compliance. I thought he meant low-output.

Well...I guess that answers my question..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 09:27:46
tweakk Audiophile Posts: 113 Joined: October 3, 2009	Fantastic post with some great information. I'm saving it so I can remember what to look for. Way cool...

Thank You !, posted on November 7, 2009 at 13:09:58
Interstage Tranny Audiophile Posts: 1407 Location: Eastern Joined: October 4, 2006	You are very welcome. There are many more vintage choices. We all want the same end result; enjoyable record playback...ENJOY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Page processed in 0.072 seconds.

Vinyl Asylum

Why no low-compliance Hi-Fi MM cartridges?...nt

72.186.180.162