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interesting turntable and arm review at Enjoy the Music

204.246.127.159
Posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:56:51
trav
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 I read this tonight. Interesting. The Chinese have proven they can build speakers and amps, will we now start to see more TTs coming to market? At these prices they could have some takers if they distribution is good (and obviously the product).

RE: interesting turntable and arm review at Enjoy the Music, posted on November 3, 2009 at 09:34:34
latestyle
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Posts: 50
Location: NYC
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 No disrespect, Mosin, but your quote below -

"The author of that article writes for us to think of a crucifix when viewing the turntable. That is appropriate because the endorsement of China's entry into high-end audio may also symbolize the crucifixion of the hobby as we know it"

- illustrates the blind and hyperbolic xenophobia which pervades the greater society today, and not just in audio.

If your borderline racist quote is correct, then people like Bill Firebaugh would not have handpicked Opera Consonance to manufacture the Amadeus, either (but thankfully, certain people in the industry are free from dogmatic thought and ideologies).

It's true there are shady products coming out of certain sectors of China, but these are expected negative consequences of a country being hyper-westernized into a capitalistic behemoth. Same issues happened with Japan and Korea decades ago, too, but now people treasure Japanese goods as artisnal, and watch Samsung flatscreens. I trust that the market and the passage of time will eventually even things out. Besides, there are established companies out of China that are producing at the level consummate to other manufacturers in the West.

If all the people subscribed to the same kind of xenophobia years ago, then Sugano-san of Koetsu and the likes of Hiroyasu Kondo would have been shunned as well, by same logic. I admire the work you put into the Saskia, but truly regret seeing those words from you, Win.
you expected "shady" products? So, is this one "shady"?, posted on November 4, 2009 at 12:18:10
beach cruiser
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Posts: 2612
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 Shady is a pretty nice way to describe products that have killed. Yet this same fuzzy kindness gets thrown away when you accuse racism and "blind and hyperbolic xenophobia" in the fairly innocent turn of a phrase from another. Makes me suspect your statements are not going to be fair or even well considered. Kind of like mine , at times.

How about toxic, saw those products coming also? Do you really think that killing a few people for a little extra profit is acceptable because they are "hyper-westernized" I'm hyper westernized and plan on getting through this life without killing another man.

It's not xenophobia, it's the policies of the government, and they are not good . Anywhere in the undeveloped world where there is oil, or a pipeline, they are creating and funding armed conflict to gain control of resources. Very western, but not that nice, and these same people run your turntable manufacturer and benefit from whatever money they generate. I don't think any profits are going into benefits for the workers.

Outsourcing your slaves is not the way to go. Just because they are not in your back yard the people working for oppressive wages suffer just the same.

I might have paid a couple of hundred dollars for skilled labor on my table, but it was worth it. The person who's labor I benefitted from can take a kid to the movies once in a while, buy an Ice cream and enjoy a day off, all while enjoying a good life with the economic foundation enjoyed by a skilled machinist in a developed society. That matters , and shapes my long term happiness with the product.

Squeezing some poor Chinese guy just so I can save some money on a non essential product is not a decision I would care to explain to my kid, or to my maker at the end of the day. I am not perfect, but at least my kid knows I am against slavery and products made by oppressed people.

Yes, I know, everywhere I look , in every direction , I see made in China. I also see my economy without a manufacturing base and in real trouble without one.

Yet it is probably useless to call good country bad country. All have good and bad, yet it is self evident that China is not your friend. You are just a powerless, useless, person to them. Live or die, doesn't matter.

So let me return to the product. Where are the cost advantages gained, and how do they benefit me when I buy the thing? Labor comes to mind first, but even at , say, five hours at fifty an hour, 250 dollars at this price point is not major. Some pollution control costs in western manufacturing are saved, but again, no biggie.

I would hope that the major price savings are in the absence of major profit mark ups, but don't think so, nobody is going to jump off that train unless they are pushed off. So we have to have savings elsewhere. Motor? materials? belts? Quality control? The money has to come from somewhere and labor savings do not account for the big price difference, most thing are made primarily by machines today with as little labor costs as possible.

I buy Chinese stuff all of the time, I am swimming in the stuff wherever I go. Yet I try to make informed decisions and buy wisely. I think this product has little to offer besides a low price, judging from the single review. When this product craps out, and it will, without the money invested in quality, which is where I see the major cost savings coming from , because it is not labor, call China and try and get parts.







RE: you expected "shady" products? So, is this one "shady"?, posted on November 4, 2009 at 13:55:18
latestyle
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 beach cruiser, if you read the whole thread, you'll see the majority of the posters agree that what mosin wrote was xenophobic in content, offensive at the very least. Mosin writes that he wrote those words on the fly, and I understand we all make those mistakes. His post is below, and can be read as it is. If you don't find it offensive, that's your read. Many people have and I was just trying to make my contention known, as well.

It does NOT mean that I agree with the principles of exploitation of labor, extortion/bribery that leads to abysmal quality control of products which in turn leads to even death! If you think so, then you are reading my post way too liberally because I say nothing of the sort and you are putting words into my mouth. What I wrote stands as is, and I don't know what the heck kind of fuzzy kindness I'm showing to the Chinese marketeers by calling them shady. It's cool that you feel incensed at what's going on over there; but don't think you are the only one and paint other people in false colors.

Enjoy your Chinese audio, posted on November 4, 2009 at 14:47:26
beach cruiser
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 I was wrong to put my meaning to others words, and I also value your opinions. My regrets and an apology are offered. I had some misgivings with my post, generally knowing that a negative approach is not my strong suit.

I am tired of the race to the bottom, where everything has to be cheaper than the next, no matter the cost to mankind or even human life on earth. I've seen a lot of the third world, poverty and exploitation and don't want to be a part of the problem. With understanding should come growth, and with better insight, better opinions. Will you still look at your Chinese player with joy years from now when the cheap price is a memory and another Chinese protester is killed with a government bullet?

If you want to by luxury items that exploit poor people go ahead, It's still a free country, unless of course, you live in China. But then I guess you would been prevented from ever reading these words in the first place. had you lived there.

I don't see any advantage in giving my money to people who are actively opposed to my way of life, and are in fact opposed to basic human rights. Sometimes it needs to be about more than just immediate gratification and saving a couple of bucks, no matter what the cost.

RE: Enjoy your Chinese audio, posted on November 4, 2009 at 15:10:30
latestyle
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 Thanks for your post. Were all posters on these forums as civilly inclined as you, there would be more dialogue and less chest-thumping. With greatness comes greater responsibilities, and the Chinese government definitely hasn't lived up to their responsibilities. Their human rights record and exploitation of workers are appalling. I do hope that gradually, with the passage of time and pressure from other nations, the situation there will stabilize as it has in Japan and Korea. And God help us all if China doesn't find an even-keeled path, as it's too powerful and wealthy and large to not affect other people living in this planet.

I totally agree with you on not insisting on the absolute cheapest possible for almost all the goods. But that's the way the market forces dictate the economy and we are seeing some ugly, ugly consequences from all corners of the world.

I've got a big mouth, posted on November 5, 2009 at 10:54:51
beach cruiser
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Posts: 2612
Location: so cal
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 I thought this product was important, but couldn't develop what I wanted to say without some thought. Getting on a soapbox and telling people the way of the world is pretty lame, and says little about this product. Sorry.

And all this hot air comes from a guy who just bought , without reservations, a three dollar Chinese Halloween prop for my son's costume. I think my big screen is built in China, it's a Panasonic, so it could be built anywhere, and I didn't even think twice, knowing that a TV assembled in my home country (Viezo ) wouldn't be as nice.

I think this is an important product, as it is the first of it kind, with more to come, without a doubt.

I have heard of fastener suppliers under pressure from the auto industry to cut cost going to China and then having to teach them how to manufacture the required quality , effectively cutting their own throat.

The same thing happened long ago with Schwinn, a popular bike brand, one of the biggest in the American market. They wanted a lower manufacturing cost, so went to China and taught them American fit and finish. Result; in time Schwinn was sold and now is just a name plate, and Giant Bicycles , the original contract company for Schwinn, is the world's largest manufacturer and very big in America.

It seems to me the well tempered guy needed a better price point. His product is a difficult one, not going to be a real big seller, it trades off a lot of ease of use for performance. So a lower price point could be a selling point, he already lost a lot of bearing cost in the arm design, so why not capitalize on that cost saving, and maybe sell a few more tables, by having the entire thing made offshore.

I don't know how much learning took place over the well tempered manufacturing discussions, but now we have a Chinese knock off of the Scoutmaster. I think VPI and Sota are on the road to big changes, ,as my country doesn't protect it's manufacturing industries. Plenty of tariffs if you are selling into China, few selling into America.

Harley Davidson motorcycles were saved when American consumers demanded an import tariff to save the American motorcycle after Japanese product had them pinned to the wall. Times have changed, foreign products are definitely no big deal, and judging from the responses here no one is really too upset about the end of an era.

That arm looks pretty interesting, if it sells well, I can see a cartridge down the road. Perhaps that is why Shure got out of the cartridge business. Niche product, and the Chinese are coming. European manufacturers, save for England, generally can count on tariff protections.

On the brighter side, someday the Chinese people were be free. I saw it in Soviet Russia, the people wised up, electronic and other media eventually penetrated the society, forcing change.
( I only brought in a few surfer mags, but the girls really were interested in the clothing styles)

I think the Chinese will eventually respond to the truth and move forward, if their government doesn't panic and burn the world down in an attempt to keep control. The old guys in my government were going that way, but we could, with some difficulty, did, vote them out.

RE: I've got a big mouth, posted on November 5, 2009 at 18:32:38
Plinko
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 The attached article by Paul Krugman is, ime, a proper way to look at economic realities and how poorer countries with abundant cheap labor can raise their standard of living. There are success stories...Japan, South Korea, etc...However, it remains to be seen in a heavily controlled communist country like China if they will let the economics run it's course and prevail. Whatever the case may be, if you're concerned about poor laborers from other countries, the best thing you can do is buy the goods, not turn your head away. Create competition for their labor and their wages will rise.

Eastern Electric also comes to mind, posted on November 3, 2009 at 14:24:02
trav
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 I haven't heard the Eastern Electric Minimax, but I'd like to. They seem pretty open about who they are, what they do, and have had a stable US importer for several years now.

The good guys in Chinese audio are going to have to work extremely hard to differentiate themselves from the shady operators so those of us in the West will view them in a similar light to other specialist companies and not as "We Build It Cheap For You, Inc.".

Usher too ..., posted on November 4, 2009 at 03:58:55
VynylTap
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 and there are plenty of others who are gaining respect - Grant Fidelity (who is rebadging items from Jungston and other Chinese manufacturers), and Consonanace/Opera. We shouldn't forget that well respected brands such as Cayin and Jolida have been using these same factories for years, even thought they are designed in Germany and the US respectively.


"I'll play it and tell you what it is later..." - Miles Davis
Exactly, posted on November 3, 2009 at 16:11:56
mosin
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 What you say nailed it. I believe a lot of guys here misunderstood what I was trying to say. My comments were not aimed at any religious or ethnic group, nor were they aimed at any audiophiles who live in the Far East. They weren't aimed at the turntable which was reviewed, either. Rather, they were aimed at those who would take advantage of cheap labor abroad, and use that to sell us clones and other garbage. My observation was that the task for the market, and for those makers abroad, is to differentiate between all the items that are being created by the new marketing dynamic. Another observation was that of the impact the shift will have on domestic manufactures. It amazes me what some people can read into things.

have a look over at Tubediy forum, posted on November 4, 2009 at 05:14:46
Plinko
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 speak of the dragon...

RE: Exactly, posted on November 3, 2009 at 16:26:32
latestyle
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 Thanks for the clarification, Mosin, but perhaps your original post below could have used such temperance & circumspection. Most of us did not just spectacularly dream up or imagine the xenophobic content in your post; the reaction of many of us stem from your words themselves. You painted the Chinese audio industry with REALLY broad brush strokes, and that's what usually leads to unfortunate cliches and stereotypes.

It seemed even worse because you are a designer yourself of exceptional musical equipment, and many of us expect from you a greater finesse of judgment and feeling. I understand how you felt misconstrued, but just letting you know how this happened from an unbiased perspective. Thanks.

Well put, and I completely agree. nt, posted on November 3, 2009 at 16:29:43
Rick W
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 nt

Well..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 16:55:42
mosin
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 You guys aren't new to forums, so you are probably aware of what can happen when you make on-the-fly comments. Such is the way of the Internet.

yeah.... I've never done that...., posted on November 4, 2009 at 09:04:07
VynylTap
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 hah! right...

I'll send you your membership card and secret decoder ring, welcome to the club.


"I'll play it and tell you what it is later..." - Miles Davis
Yep. Of course all my own posts have been......perfect :-) nt, posted on November 3, 2009 at 19:39:20
Rick W
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 nt

Yeah, yeah, but..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 20:34:04
mosin
Manufacturer

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 ...can you paint yourself into a corner, so that you look like an anti-Christian, anti-Semitic, anti-Chinese, anti-Far East audiophile, anti-WalMart shopper, xenophobic racist in one hundred words or less? J.D., O'Malley, Fear3000 and Romy the Cat couldn't manage that with team effort!

Xenophobic, there's a word you don't hear everyday. And, to think I was looking at Baltic investment properties. I suppose that's out! ;)

RE: Yeah, yeah, but..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 20:57:11
trav
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 You have already proven you can build a better mousetrap, so it only makes sense for you to find a more efficient way of pissing people off!

Not exactly "vinyl" but, OPPO makes one of the best, posted on November 3, 2009 at 15:00:53
rich121
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Contributor
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 Blueray/DVD/SACD/CD players out there. One of the best companies for customer service, that is, the rare time something does go wrong with them.

These are 100% Chinese...


Rick
It's all about the music!
RE: interesting turntable and arm review at Enjoy the Music, posted on November 3, 2009 at 11:44:50
FrankC
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 I could not have said it any better!

I have read an interview of Opera/Consonance' proprieter in a Taiwanese Hi-End Audio magazine. If anything, he has the same type of spirit that all of those "pioneers" possessed in that he has a passion in audio and in tinkering with equipment. There were pictures of him sitting in his design studio where he had a collection of some of the world's top-notch audio products from present and past, and sketches of ideas and prototypes. And if you look at the range of products that Opera/Consonance offers , you will see that he is very much interested in both the designing prodcuts that sounds good and aesthetically pleasing.

Of course, I would not put him in the same category as some of the established designers in the industry. But he and his company is paving the way for Chinese hi-end audio designers, and creating an interest in China for hi-end audio.

Disclaimer: I am not tie to Opera/Consonance in anyway, but I do own two of their headphone amps, and have been keeping an eye on various products from this company for the past 5 years.

FrankC

My observation, for what it is worth., posted on November 2, 2009 at 19:25:57
mosin
Manufacturer

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 Hello all,

The author of that article writes for us to think of a crucifix when viewing the turntable. That is appropriate because the endorsement of China's entry into high-end audio may also symbolize the crucifixion of the hobby as we know it.

There was a time when the greats, like Avery Fisher, Harry Olson and Saul Marantz, to name a few, brought forward new ideas that were transformed into products which set standards for audio that live to this very day. For them, the hobby was the passion. For them, the performance was the reward.

They are survived by relatively few makers of real stature and a group of smaller specialty producers of various audio goods. Those individuals probably all lack the genius of the truly great ones, but they do carry on with the passion. That passion is performance driven, but soon even they may feel the brunt of "The Sleeping Dragon" who was so abruptly awaken by marketeers and others seeking solutions to high manufacturing costs in the West. Is it a good thing? Can the dragon maintain the tradition, the passion, the creativity and the performance, or will he simply give us the immediate gratification that we so desperately crave at prices we can afford?

The market will ultimately decide, and I hope it makes the right choice. So far, it has been a mixed bag, a very mixed bag.

Best,
Win

RE: My observation, for what it is worth., posted on November 6, 2009 at 01:15:37
tubesforever
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 What concerns me is the job and environmental situation is becoming more and more grotesque.

Jobs are important. The most startling reality is that we seem to be shifting manufacturing jobs from the EU, France, UK, Canada, USA and Mexico to China and here is what we can expect....

The product will cost the manufacturer 1/12 to 1/100 of the original cost in the host nation. Back in the host nation, the jobs are lost, the production capability is lost, and the quality of the Chinese product is anyone's guess.

The long term effects of this manufacturing shift is being felt around the world right now. You don't have to wait a decade to know what's going on. Just look around at manufacturing and production work in the USA and other previously industrialized countries.

They cannot see the sun in Beijing.

I wonder why? Perhaps its because the labor is cheap. Perhaps its because they have no environmental standards to follow. Does this worry anyone? This isn't a post about prejudice, its a message about reality and the reality is staring us in the face.

We need to hold every third world country and especially China to the same environmental standards that exist in the EU, France, England and the USA. Otherwise this mess will continue ad nausium.

And that's all I have to say about this subject.






"Music Matters" Help support our schools music programs.
RE: My observation, for what it is worth., posted on November 4, 2009 at 09:23:42
JimL
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 Interesting thoughts, Win, but I think many said similar things when the Japanese first started flooding the market with their stuff - Pioneer, Sansui, Kenwood/Trio, and so on - back in the 1960s, driving out many old time manufacturers like Fisher, Scott, Marantz, Garrard, etc. But I think we tend to forget that when Fisher, McIntosh and Marantz were around so was Magnavox. Reasonable sound quality at lower prices is not necessarily a bad thing - a lot of people had their first experience of "hi-fi" that couldn't afford it before. Most were satisfied with that level of performance, and a minority then went on to explore higher performance products. Eventually we started seeing Japanese products from Luxman, Koetsu, Grace, Fidelity Research, Shindo, and other "craftsman" builders. So, we shall see.

I could give a damn where it's made... if it sounds good, it's good..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 16:14:13
VynylTap
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 if it's a great value, all the better.

I've taken this approach with everything I buy, cars, electronics, audio gear.

Slowly but surely it has transpired that I find that a good amount of my gear has a connection to China. it stated with a listening session of Usher speakers that I ultimately purchased. Cayin and Jolida amps, Oppo CD transports all followed and they are all excellent.


"I'll play it and tell you what it is later..." - Miles Davis
Wow. Have you heard the turntable in question?, posted on November 3, 2009 at 08:35:57
Rick W
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 I wouldn't write off the possibility that some Chinese designer/manufacturer will innovate in the field of hifi. Chinese history ain't exactly bereft of innovation.

Remember when Japanese cars were ridiculed?

Almost sounds like, posted on November 3, 2009 at 06:11:31
JeffH
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 Japan and look what crappy stuff they ended up making ;) I'm old enough to remember when "Made in Japan" was a real put down.

And a "Swiss watch" used to be an epithet, posted on November 3, 2009 at 06:43:48
travisty
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 if you go back 90-100 years...
I don't have a problem with it., posted on November 3, 2009 at 06:10:07
soundnut
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 If you believe the review, it's an excellent quality turntable at a price point a fraction of the cost of a comparable turntable from another manufacturer.

I don't automatically dismiss a product because of where it's bolted together. A good product is a good product no matter where it's from.

Cheers,
Bobbo :-)

what exactly is the objection?, posted on November 3, 2009 at 04:11:37
troporobo
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 Is it the fact that someone thinks they can make a viable business out of manufacturing in China? Or is it your implication that Chinese manufacturers don't and can't innovate?

I am well aware of the problems with intellectual property, labor, environment, standards, etc and certainly do not defend an entire national manufacturing sector. But I do get tired of hearing people who have no qualms about bashing one. I am also certain that there are some very clever and scrupulous people there who will eventually emerge

I don't see anything special about the TT at the link, but I don't see anything egregiously wrong with it either. So why the reaction? I don't recall seeing "death of the hobby" warnings when certain venerable (non Asian) brands decided it was time for a revival, jumped on the bandwagon, and starting copying the all-acrylic design aesthetic.

I do recall the paranoia about Japanese manufacturing in the 60s. Yet I think most audiophiles are ultimately grateful for many contributions that have originated there. Why can't China (or any other country) follow the same path as long as it is done honestly?

My observation on your observation., posted on November 3, 2009 at 04:09:15
olddude55
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 Avery Fisher, Saul Marantz, Harry Olson, and Henry Kloss, and David Hafler et al; no longer around and in some cases the companies they founded exist as names only.
But instead today we have Peter Lederman, Roy Gandy, and Harry Weisfield. I'd put these guys up against the old guard any day.
The old guys either quit, or retired, or died, and turned their companies over to people who made money by buying and selling companies rather than by making a better product.
And I'll bet that somewhere circa 1965, some guy just like you or me looked at the first Sony receiver and thought, "those Japanese are going to kill hi-fi."
We all know now that Japan didn't kill hi-fi; indeed, Japanese companies advanced it. So it will be eventually with China.
Right now the Chinese excel at building stuff designed in other countries and that's the pattern that all emerging economies employ. The US did it to Europe and Britain at the end of the 19th Century.
Emerging economies eventually design world-class products of their own. This is already happening in India, and in fact the new Buick LaCrosse was designed by GM's China design studio. Take a look at it when you get a chance.
If you're waiting for the market to make the right choice, you're too late. The decision has already been made. The Chinese want to be what we used to be and the US wants to be Gordon Gekko.
___
From the Industrial Hub of the Mid-Mon Valley!
Not sure, posted on November 3, 2009 at 07:33:10
JeffH
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 and I'm not an expert in Chinese culture, but Japan always had a finely detailed artisan / craftsmen culture. Their woodworking, sword making, etc skills gave hint to their potential for excellence in design & manufacturing of such things as automobiles and electronics in general. I don't know if the Chinese have that degree of "built in" capability to become pioneers. Time will obviously tell. Speaking of time, I have a Rolex watch from China that fools everybody and keeps good time to boot!

"I'm not an expert in Chinese culture", posted on November 3, 2009 at 09:58:13
rebop
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 Clearly, or you wouldn't be spouting such ignorant nonsense.

A little overly sensitive, posted on November 3, 2009 at 17:45:32
JeffH
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 me thinks. I in no way stated that the Chinese couldn't do it, shouldn't do it or wouldn't do it. And why do overly sensitive folk always read racism into stuff?...amazing really.

RE: A little overly sensitive, posted on November 3, 2009 at 17:58:31
rebop
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 I do not think I was overly sensitive at all. Your words were insensitive and based your (admitted) ignorance of Chinese culture.

You said:

"I don't know if the Chinese have that degree of "built in" capability to become pioneers."

Those are ugly words. If I were to say "I don't know if Europeans have that degree of "built in" capability to become pioneers," would it not strike you as insensitive and based on a general ignorance of European culture? If not, it should.

Maybe you meant something altogether more innocuous by these words, I certainly hope so, but my reaction to them was not "overly sensitive" in the least.

RE: A little overly sensitive, posted on November 3, 2009 at 19:12:49
JeffH
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 As a country ran by an oppressive government I don't. As individuals or as a people I see no limitations. I see individuals or people as almost limitless if allowed to be limitless. Due to the venue, we should prob put an end to this dialog though. Wouldn't you agree?

RE: A little overly sensitive, posted on November 4, 2009 at 08:59:42
rebop
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 I agree. I also agree with the statement you make here, but I hope you can understand why I took your initial words the way I did.

WTF?, posted on November 3, 2009 at 15:53:34
Plinko
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 Is anything he said untrue?

RE: WTF?, posted on November 3, 2009 at 16:14:24
rebop
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 He could not be further off base. Do some research on Chinese culture, art and history. There is a history of serious craftsmanship and attention to fine detail there for sure. Further to imply that the Chinese lack the "'built in' capability to become pioneers" is no less offensive than saying Europeans, Africans or any other ethnic group lack the "built in" capacity for anything. It's ignorant nonsense.

mea culpa!, posted on November 3, 2009 at 17:16:48
Plinko
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Location: N East, USA
Joined: July 21, 2005
 I quickly read and misread his post. I obviously need to slow down while reading the forum. I thought he said Chinese always had a history of fine craftsmanship (which the Chinese certainly do). Instead, doubt was offered as to whether the Chinese had similar history to Japan's one of fine craftsmanship. If one doesn't know, one shouldn't raise doubt. Also, kind of embarrassing to read such a thing, as you say, from a racial perspective!

No worries..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 17:45:57
rebop
Audiophile

Posts: 1872
Joined: January 11, 2003
 sounds like you were just giving the benefit of doubt on a quick read.

Chinese artisan/craftsmen were creating when, posted on November 3, 2009 at 08:37:33
Muzikmike
Reviewer

Posts: 7336
Location: SoCentral PA
Joined: December 19, 2007
Contributor
  Since: August 5, 2008
 much of the world was still using leaves for diapers.

An example might be Chinese floral art compared to Japanese floral art. The Chinese many times would focus on a single flower; it's shape and the angles of which it arose from the stem, the extension of life, metaphorically. Many of the design elements in that tradition is found in Japanese art which focuses on form and balance, of reaching inwardly toward perfection.

(Sorry, reading about "Orchids in Art" right now.)

The Japanese borrowed from the Chinese and achieved their own level and traditions of art.

All cultures "borrow" and improve for their own needs that which arose from the culture with which they broke tradition and (often) political ties.


There is no such thing as too many records.
There is just too little room for them!
RE: Faithful Copy, posted on November 3, 2009 at 08:29:33
kingseiko
Audiophile

Posts: 345
Location: South Texas
Joined: July 20, 2004
 A Rolex from China probably will run fine for quite sometimes depends on the materials that they use and as long as they copy all the parts inside a Rolex faithfully !!!

YES, US is just like GORDON GEKKO. Just looks at how WALL STREET's mean to shareholders' benefits and profits did to the U.S. industries. Maybe the one that WALL STREET cannot kill is APPLE because it stills has a CEO called STEVE JOB.


Mike

They have come a long way, posted on November 3, 2009 at 07:40:28
Biff
Audiophile

Posts: 3566
Location: Portland, Oregon
Joined: January 27, 2002
 I am amazed at the quality of some Chinese products. For instance - a few years ago I bought an Epiphone acoustic guitar made in China for $90. It's very good in my opinion, incredibly so for the price. No, it's not a Martin but I obviously didn't expect that kind of quality. I don't have the talent to warrant buying a Martin anyway.

In general, I think it's much too late to lament the loss of US-made anything.


***********************
"More music and Les Brown."
Funny you mention Chinese guitars., posted on November 3, 2009 at 14:02:08
soundnut
Audiophile

Posts: 3108
Location: Iowa
Joined: May 7, 2004
 I have one myself. It's a $170 Xaviere Tele copy from guitarfetish.com. I already owned a USA Fender Strat, a Fender Strat made in Japan, a Gibson Les Paul, and a Gibson Marauder. But I wanted a Tele, and couldn't justify buying a high-dollar USA Fender when I already had several guitars.

After replacing the tuners with a set of USA Fenders I had laying around, it's easily as good as any USA Fender Tele I've played. And it's noticeably better than some I've played, including a friend's '52 USA ash reissue. The pickups sound like a Tele, only snappier, the neck plays smoother, and the action is down to less than a 16th of an inch from the 12th fret with no buzz anywhere. And the woods seem to be of good quality, with good fit & finish.

And it's not a fluke. Two friends of mine were so impressed by it, they bought the same model. And theirs play and sound just as good as mine.

I've had numerous pieces of pro audio gear made in China, including some excellent power amps, (a lot of the Crown power amps are made in China now) mixers, processors, a guitar amp, etc. And I have a 2007 49cc Chinese-made scooter that has 2000 miles on the clock so far, gets 80 mpg, and goes 45 mph. It hasn't let me down yet & I ride the crap out of it during the warm months.

They're not Chinese, but I've got a Pentax digital SLR made in the Phillipines, a Pentax lens and a Marshall guitar head made in Vietnam, and a couple of Technics components sitting on my spares rack made in Malaysia. Especially since the introduction of ISO 9001 quality management, where something is made doesn't have anything to do with how good it is.

Cheers,
Bobbo :-)

RE: ISO 9000, posted on November 4, 2009 at 16:16:14
CBT
Audiophile

Posts: 366
Location: West Coast
Joined: September 9, 2005
 ISO 9000 is not a guarantee of quality. It only ensures that a manufacturer has a documented process to make products - for good products or junk alike.

Theo

-- Is it the same old place or the old same place? --
RE: Funny you mention Chinese guitars., posted on November 3, 2009 at 15:28:18
Biff
Audiophile

Posts: 3566
Location: Portland, Oregon
Joined: January 27, 2002
 They do guitars well. I'm not familiar with the Tele you mentioned but I'll bet it's nice, especially for the price. What a deal.

I have a MIM Tele that plays as well as my buddy's old pre-CBS model. It was made in the early 90s; I paid $250 for it maybe 5 years ago. The shop I bought it from put a tag on it that said "TeleNafta" (kinda cracked me up).




***********************
"More music and Les Brown."
RE: My observation, for what it is worth., posted on November 2, 2009 at 21:12:54
Topper
Audiophile

Posts: 534
Location: New England
Joined: April 19, 2001
 Amen.
W

I blame alot of the present and not so present day manufacturers, posted on November 2, 2009 at 21:12:25
rich121
Audiophile

Posts: 4050
Location: WA State, USA
Joined: March 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: May 28, 2003
 for gouging customers.
This has been too common of a practice in this hobby and for too long...

It was only a matter of time before something like his happened... the market can only blame itself.


Rick
It's all about the music!
I think you are right on target, posted on November 2, 2009 at 20:54:30
artemus
Audiophile

Posts: 11011
Joined: March 12, 2001
Contributor
  Since: August 27, 2009
 It is an unfortunate fact that craftsmen of all disciplines are a dying breed IMO. Our business world used to be predominantly small business run by people with a passion for the product they made. However we are now an investor driven society where a passion to make the best widget has been replaced by the desire to make the most $$$ for the stock holders who demand a profit be made. And if the product happens to be a good one, then so be it. But if $$$ can be made with an inferior product then the company will go with that until it stops selling.
Now one might think an inferior product wouldn't sell. But I think we Americans have pretty much given up on quality products that last beyond 4-5 yrs
At this point our hobby is a niche market for small businesses which drive up costs exorbitantly. But at the same time we are getting some very good products that are engineered and constructed extremely well. I can't imagine that mass produced equipment made with inferior parts with poor quality control can be a good thing for our hobby.
I only use my gun whenever kindness fails
I wasn't endorsing it, just pointing it out, posted on November 2, 2009 at 20:39:24
trav
Audiophile

Posts: 1538
Location: MN
Joined: January 25, 2003
 I'm glad you bring this up. I do not take your response as a personal attack in any way. I linked the review because analog hardware (aside from phono preamps) is one of the areas in audio thus far largely untouched by Chinese companies as far as the North American market is concerned.

We all have to answer for ourselves some questions. Is the savings worth it? Would you pay more for a similar item if it were made in your country of residence by people earning a genuinely livable wage and benefits package to produce it? How much more? Is country of origin even a factor in your audio decision making?

Where are your slaves?, posted on November 3, 2009 at 09:09:31
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 2612
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 I think one has to carefully consider buying a product made by slaves or from slave like conditions. I don't think endorsing oppressive working conditions with my wallet is worth the money saved. I don't need a player that badly.

Just because the slaves are not located close to you does not mean they are free, or that the consumer is not a party to funding suffering.

As for the product, big deal, competition improves the breed. . It's not rocket science, but then the Chinese invented rockets, so I expect better products later on.

I see quality issues as a problem. The lure of lower cost will change the product for the worse as time goes by, just like other Chinese manufacturers couldn't resist throwing a little poison in the toothpaste because poison is just a little cheaper than toothpaste, or dog food, or even baby formula.

RE: Where are your slaves?, posted on November 4, 2009 at 16:30:05
CBT
Audiophile

Posts: 366
Location: West Coast
Joined: September 9, 2005
 Though slave is too strong a word, I blame the greedy manufacturers, and the government not imposing some kind of minimal wages for a country of a billion workers. That said, where would cheap price products come from when every government act responsibly to its people? It's a double-edged sword - a balance a government must made to juggle between economic growth and welfare of it people. Too frequently it's out of balance.


Theo

-- Is it the same old place or the old same place? --
RE: I wasn't endorsing it, just pointing it out, posted on November 3, 2009 at 07:52:34
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 2686
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 Here's the thing - I can't tell much about the tonearm, but the tt could easily be a cheap piece of doodoo, not even commensurate in quality with its modest cost. Compare it to a Technics SL1500, for only one example of a tt that is actually lower in price (including tonearm). I share Mosin's apprehension, but I see no threat to the "high end" in this particular product.

RE: You liken Chinese audio manufacturers to Christ killers?, posted on November 2, 2009 at 19:47:30
thegage
Audiophile

Posts: 791
Joined: April 29, 2000
 Seriously?

I think your metaphor is a bit off-kilter.

John K.

It wasn't my intent..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 19:59:19
mosin
Manufacturer

Posts: 9481
Joined: July 24, 2003
 ...to confuse a hobby with a religion. Sometimes, I wonder if that isn't what it is to a lot of people, though. ;)

RE: It wasn't my intent..., posted on November 4, 2009 at 09:47:35
jdarby
Reviewer

Posts: 848
Joined: August 26, 2001
 We recently reviewed another Opera Consonace table - the "Forbidden City".
It's a fine table but not what I'd call "cheap" pricewise. But we just got in another Chinese table from HANSS Acoustics that looks even more impressive at a ridiculously low price for what it is. We saw and heard it at RMAF.

We also just got in the Jazz Reference from Musical Life Turntables. That's German. Going to be an interesting month...

RE: It wasn't my intent..., posted on November 4, 2009 at 16:40:03
EagleRocker
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Location: So Cal
Joined: January 21, 2009
 The cheapest Hanss is $3,000 without an arm as far as I can tell; I don't know if I'd call that "ridiculously cheap."

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