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Cartridge alignment not that big a deal? (Well Tempered Amadeus)

67.100.34.42
Posted on November 2, 2009 at 14:52:18
hesson11
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Location: Florida
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 The Well Tempered Amadeus allows for no cartridge adjustment other than the fixed position as the tonearm comes from the factory. The well-respected designer William Firebaugh writes in his blog:

"After my investigations, I decided to relieve users of Amadeus of the issue of setting tonearm geometry and to use a fixed geometry. Based on the comprehensive analysis of J.K. Stevenson in the May and June 1966 article Pickup Arm Design and based on the dimensions of several phono cartridges in my inventory, I designed the tonearm for Amadeus to have a fixed tracking angle of 19 degrees and an overhang of 0.5”."

And from the owners' manual:

"The Amadeus features a head shell that requires no tracking alignment adjustment. We strongly recommend it remains firmly fixed in the correct position as supplied."

"The Amadeus tonearm has an effective length of 10.5” (267 mm). The headshell is fixed ex-factory in the optimum position. There is no provision for over-hang adjustment. Some alignment protractors may well disagree. However, The Well Tempered Lab stands by their convictions."

So, can we all throw our protractors away, just tighten down the screws and let 'er rip?
-Bob
My experience is that it does matter., posted on November 5, 2009 at 23:32:26
Timbo in Oz
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 First time I re-aligned my Garrotted* Shure V15/III with a borrowed metal Dennesen twin-point protractor way back in the 1970's I found that I could now hear Emmylou, Linda and Dolly distinctly from each other, their own lines being available to me all the time they were singing, much clearer, through my spherical 2-ways.

I can't remember which record but it has to have been an Emmylou Harris or a Linda Ronstadt album. That is, not the later one that was particularly marketed as having all three on all tracks.

* The Shure was on its third Weinz Parabolic tip.

On two-mike-stereo (/based) recordings of acoustic music the difference was even more important, not at all small to me, and was musically affective - especially on antiphonal effects. I am an ex-cathedral chorister so sound-space will matter to me, won't it?

I bought a GFRPlastic version of the Denneson as a result of the impact / experience. I was about to go MC, and needed a good alignment tool. MC's are even more responsive to this effort.

Speaking of Bill Firebaugh, IIRC he was at one time pushing spherical fibreglass spkrs, 2-ways IIRC. A local mob had been making a range of concrete spheres here near Canberra, Australia's capital city from the early 1970's, discovering MF capacitors in passing and air core coils for tweeters!!!. John Dunlavy respected the two models they were making when he was based here.

I still have the HFN&RR issue in which Bill's spheres were pictures in a news item. What happened to Bill's spheres?

IME if you set spheres up really well, their imaging and analysis makes cartridge alignment well worth the effort. ;-)!




Warmest

Timothy Bailey
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio Scrounger

And gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!

'Still not saluting.'

http://www.theanalogdept.com/tim_bailey.htm
for what it's worth, posted on November 4, 2009 at 07:34:20
Bruce from DC
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 after I received a Wallytractor for my arm and re-aligned my cartridge using that (instead of the less sophisticated jig supplied by the arm's manufacturer), there was a clear audible improvement.

But I could have been conning myself because I had invested $50 in the Wallytractor and 1/2 hour of my time doing the setup!

Given the state of the art in 1966, it very well could be that "in the ballpark" was good enough for purposes of cartridge alignment. I really don't think that's the case today. (Although I have to agree with HW's conclusion that anti-skating on 10" arms is a waste of time. Using the skating adjustment groove on my test record, where a signal of increasingly high level is recorded, mistracking happens on both channels at the same time.)


that J. K. Stevenson is one convincing dude., posted on November 3, 2009 at 11:16:31
beach cruiser
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 Just imagine launching a product without a conventional design feature based on an two articles from 1966. Must be a very convincing writer. Cartridge alignment is still a big deal at my house, I guess I , along with a few other guys who design arms for a living, missed the memo. I would think such a ground breaking concept would have been better accepted in the forty years gone by. Usually when important information is lost it is from a language barrier. Not so much in this case.

I like the well tempered product. However it seems very self indulgent. Good ideas are good because they work, not because no one else is doing it that way and we are so much more clever than that.

Witness the arm. Great concept, hang it from a string. In practice, you must Micro balance the entire assembly to get the tip in the groove without a sideways tilt. A little tricky until you get those microscopic eyeballs installed. Or you could just say screw it and put on the supplied finger lift . Ain't engineering grand?

Probably, if you started to move the cart around too much, as in a regular cartridge installation, you would notice that the arm was now hanging off to one side, unbalanced. Better to just lock out any cart adjustment, and prevent a bunch of returns. Tell them there is an article written by a guy who says it is alright, there is no such thing as a misaligned cart, because second order harmonics are in play and all that.

I haven't read the paper I am discussing, and I realize I am probably doing that writer a disservice. But, it does seem over at my house that cartridge alignment is necessary. I am surprised that a product intended for a sophisticated consumer decided to just drop cart alignment into a "range" of correctness. Makes me think I might be wrong about that "sophisticated consumer" part.

Analyzer, posted on November 3, 2009 at 05:39:27
Plinko
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 Interesting...

"In a future edition of this blog ,I will describe how to make a low-cost tracking angle analyzer. This device will permit the user to determine the tracking angle error caused by cartridges different dimensions.

William Firebaugh"

I've got a better one and it's free to download..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 10:41:27
John Elison
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 Check out my Excel tonearm alignment geometry spreadsheet at the following link. It will enable you to assess different alignments by graphing tracking error in addition to weighted tracking error, which is synonymous with second harmonic distortion produced by tracking error. As B.K. points out below, all this stuff has been already figured out many, many years ago. There is really nothing new in tonearm alignment geometry, except for new people with new misunderstandings.

Best regards,
John Elison

Thanks John!, posted on November 3, 2009 at 15:55:04
Plinko
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 Both you and BK are big assets to the forum.

What a load of crap, posted on November 3, 2009 at 03:34:31
B.K.
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 The solution to aligning a cartridge has been solved, and it isn’t rocket science.

“No need to align your cartridge - let's go a step further and change the mount to a bayonet.” Hold on, that's already been tried with P-mount cartridges.

What about VTA, no need for that too?

The above 'solutions' are not solutions at all, they are just stupid omissions. The arguments in favour are not very logical. I never got the argument against VTA adjustment in the Rega tonearms. Even if the adjustment is not that important, there is no downside to its inclusion. The downside to its omission is no VTA adjustment! Even if there was no difference in the sound, it would annoy me to have a tonearm pointing up like a rocket launcher due to the omission of VTA adjustment. It would annoy me to have to dismantle the turntable and fit a washer to fix the problem that the manufacturer created. It would annoy me that I couldn’t try out a thick mat, or the cartridge isolater because the manufacturer says “You don’t need VTA”. The same goes for adding slots in the headshell: slots allow alignment, no downside; if there are no slots then there is no way to adjust the alignment, that's a downside.

The worst part: when I watched the video in the link and the manufacturer shows how his tonearm works fine without a cueing lever, and then demonstrates arm cueing by the method of "Bashing the tonearm down on the record", I thought: "What a load of crap". Careful tonearm cueing protects your records and protects your cartridge suspension, arguing the contrary is no different in my mind to the dumb assertion: "Black = White"

BK

Rant over.
Novel suggestion..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 14:44:42
Vik
Audiophile

Posts: 1031
Location: Rochester, NY
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 Listen to the table before criticizing it. Of course, it's far easier to cast dispersions without listening so I can understand your reservations.

Vik
Not a very novel suggestion., posted on November 3, 2009 at 14:55:56
B.K.
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 That is not a novel suggestion; in fact it is an argument that is commonly made here: that someone must listen to a piece of equipment before making an analysis.

It is a specious argument.

As explained in the post above, the manufacturer has chosen to omit certain desirable features; and as far as I am concerned there is no logical justification for this omission - listening to the equipment or not has no bearing on that judgement.

BK
And, it even gets worse...., posted on November 3, 2009 at 07:12:03
John Elison
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 We might as well keep going with this rant. It's pretty obvious to me that the guy doesn't understand tonearm alignment geometry.

He claims his tonearm is designed for Stevenson's alignment with dimensions of 10.5" (266.7-mm) effective length, 0.5" (12.7-mm) overhang and 19-degrees offset angle. This produces alignment null-points of 56.4-mm and 117.3-mm yielding innermost and outermost grooves at 56.4-mm and 151.0-mm respectively. Why would you ever want an outermost groove outside the allowable grooved playing area limit of 146-mm? Similarly, why would you ever want an innermost groove inside the smallest modulated groove of 57.5-mm? This guy obviously doesn't understand tonearm alignment geometry.

Another glaring discrepancy involves his alignment protractor, which is provided just in case the headshell comes loose and must be realigned to the proper offset. The protractor has an alignment null-point of 1 7/8" (47.625-mm). What's with this??? The inner null-point for the Amadeus tonearm is 56.4-mm, not 47.6-mm. This guy is totally bonkers IMO.

Best regards,
John Elison

Maybe less than totally bonkers? -- His arm-bearing design still looks interesting to me. nt, posted on November 5, 2009 at 14:01:25
goldenthal
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 n

a thought, posted on November 2, 2009 at 18:08:07
trav
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 Given this, and Rega's 3 bolt "automatically aligned" mounting scheme as another example, I wonder if this is a reaction of certain manufacturers/designers to customers who don't have much experience mounting carts and don't have access to service technicians who do. They must get calls and e-mails from people having problems due to improperly set up carts. Perhaps the idea is that a known, reliable compromise is better than having people ending up with set-ups that are completely FUBARed.

I'm not saying I agree with this, just offering a possible rationale.

RE: a thought, posted on November 3, 2009 at 08:45:58
judicata
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 Just a small note on why the Rega three-point mount is different than this issue: First, it is for Rega carts only (or maybe those designed with the same specs, but I don't know of any). Second, it is on Rega arms only. Finally, you don't have to use the third bolt if you don't want to.

I don't have my Rega any more, but after trying different alignments, I thought my Exact sounded right using the three point mount.
true, not an entirely appropriate comparison on my part, posted on November 3, 2009 at 14:39:28
trav
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 I didn't mean to compare those two specifically, more in the general sense of both designers possibly trying to overcome problems they see as manufacturers based on interactions with the customers. I probably should have included something about VPI and Technics including their own alignment jigs as a similar response by others.

My statement did paint with a bit broader brush than I intended, mostly from being a bit incomplete (sloppy?).

RE: true, not an entirely appropriate comparison on my part, posted on November 3, 2009 at 15:30:04
judicata
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Posts: 98
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 I gotcha. Fair point.

Leave it to Bill Firebaugh........., posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:57:12
Marc Bratton
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 ...to ask the questions no one else has ever asked, then do some 'out of the box' thinking to solve the problem. If you read the whole blog, you'll see that the effect of increased tracking error is 2nd order harmonic distortion, which he says is essentially benign sonically. Add to that the effect of the outer grooves going by the stylus much faster than the inner grooves is to minimize the effects of this 2nd order distortion. So, he comes up with an alignment that essentially evens out this spread over the whole LP by taking advantage of this effect. Classic Firebaugh. Clearly, the man is a genius. After the bitch of a time I had mounting my last cart, makes me want to get an Amadeus for just that reason...but I'd really like it to have a cueing lever:)

RE: Leave it to Bill Firebaugh........., posted on November 2, 2009 at 19:00:31
Vik
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Posts: 1031
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 The table comes with a fingerlift. It is just rarely photographed in the product shots. My dealer recommended not using it since it messes with the arms alignment.
Vik

RE: Leave it to Bill Firebaugh........., posted on November 2, 2009 at 20:00:43
hesson11
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Posts: 623
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 Just to be clear, the arm does have an optional fingerlift that can be affixed to the headshell. But it does not have a cueing lever.

-Bob

It sounds like one of those things..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:53:46
Doug G.
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Posts: 516
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 that an engineer makes up when said engineer forgets to engineer a feature into their product :^)

Doug

Haha - good one! :-)) nt, posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:56:54
andyr
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Posts: 6564
Location: Melbourne
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 .


Surely the issue with this is ... do all cartridges have the same distance from mounting bolts to stylus? ..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:38:34
andyr
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 If so - then all is good.

If not - then you have no way of compensating for this ... I've never seen this distance specified for any cartridge - so how would you know whether the cartridge you had was different or not?

Regards,

Andy


AFAIK, this is not new for Well Tempered, posted on November 2, 2009 at 18:38:21
Lew
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Posts: 2686
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
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 My friend's WT Ref tonearm also has only fixed holes for cartridge mounting, and while it is possible to rotate the pivot area to gain or lose some pivot to stylus tip distance, that adjustment is an absolute bear to achieve with any accuracy. Try a Dynavector 17D3, a cartridge with a very short mounting hole to stylus tip distance. It does not work well on a WTR. In the case of the Amadeus, I think the manufacturer is trying to make it simple for the novice, and in most cases, the mounting will not be far off. They ought to provide a list of acceptable cartridges, however. That would be more intellectually honest. 17D3 need not apply.

Exactly!, posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:45:58
John Elison
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 The stylus-to-mounting-hole distance for cartridges is not standardized. Therefore, overhang will vary depending on which cartridges is mounted in the headshell. That's why most tonearm manufacturers have either slotted headshells or movable bases.

Best regards,
John Elison
AES paper 7924, posted on November 3, 2009 at 07:44:31
KlausR.
Audiophile

Posts: 1872
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 Hi John,

you have read the draft version, and by now you possibly have read Richard's official paper. The present results suggest that this whole horizontal tracking error issue was and still is grossly overrated. If you take the present data as basis, by how much can overhang or offset angle be off before it gets audible?


It remains to be seen if the perception thresholds can be confirmed by further, possibly more sensitive tests, and if tracing distortion is not interfering.

Digital Simulation of Phonograph Tracking Distortion—Richard Tollerton, Isomorphic Software, Inc. - San Francisco, CA, USA

Phonograph tracking distortion results from the misalignment of a playback cartridge with respect to the cutting head. While it has been researched for decades, it remains a source of mystery: it cannot be isolated, it has not been accurately simulated, and its importance remains undecided. Here, a PCM simulation of horizontal and vertical tracking distortion of extremely high quality is presented, operating on the principle of phase modulation, allowing tracking distortion to be evaluated in isolation with real musical content. In this context, tracking distortion is equivalent to digital audio sampling jitter, with the jitter spectrum equal to the signal spectrum. Implications of this connection, as well as simulation accuracy, preliminary listening test results, and potential applications are discussed.


Klaus

RE: Exactly!, posted on November 2, 2009 at 18:25:35
hesson11
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 That's why I find it curious that Firebaugh states the arm is designed for .5 inches of overhang. Since not all cartridges have the same mounting-hole to stylus distance, not all cartridges are going to be aligned according to his specified overhang.

-Bob

Thanks, John, for confirming what I thought. So why do arm designers *do* that?? :-(( ..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:56:24
andyr
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 Well Tempered and Naim - you'd have to be crazy to buy them ... or, I guess, you're one of those people who like to have all their decisions made for them! :-))

Regards,

Andy


RE: Thanks, John, for confirming what I thought. So why do arm designers *do* that?? :-(( ..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 20:01:43
John Elison
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 I guess they do that because they believe that tracking error does not make a lot of difference or else they believe that a variance in stylus-to-mounting-hole distance is not all that critical in terms of tonearm alignment. Why else would they do it? ;-)

Additionally, some tonearm manufacturers do not really understand tonearm alignment geometry. I can think of one in particular that is totally clueless, yet he sells some very expensive and popular tonearms.

Best regards,
John Elison

"some tonearm manufacturers do not really understand tonearm alignment geometry" :-)) ..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 22:49:17
andyr
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Posts: 6564
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 Oh oh ... I hope you weren't referring to my G2.2!!?? :-)) ... PM me, if you were (as I'd like to know what's wrong with it. My Benz LP sounds very nice on it! :-)) ).

Regards,

Andy
RE: "some tonearm manufacturers do not really understand tonearm alignment geometry" :-)) ..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 08:01:59
John Elison
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 No! I'm not talking about Graham. I'm sure he understands tonearm alignment geometry quite well.

Best regards,
John Elison

I think I know to whom you are referring..., posted on November 3, 2009 at 08:48:48
JimK
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 But in case I am incorrect I won't mention them here.


Jim
It's better not to mention names! ;-), posted on November 3, 2009 at 09:46:43
John Elison
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 I don't want to get kicked out of here. ;-)

I thought so!, posted on November 3, 2009 at 10:00:16
JimK
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 If it's the same people we shared emails about maybe a year or two ago, well.....'nuff said.

Jim
I never used a protractor with an ARO...., posted on November 2, 2009 at 16:13:32
kuma
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Posts: 5090
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 which also have a fixed headshell and no provisions for various overhang. ( at least with an LP12 anyways )

Tried different cartridges and they all sound fine to me. ( some are better than others due to subjectivity, obviously )

There are some cartridges that won't work but there are enough out there to fit so I don't find it it's a big deal.

RE: I never used a protractor with an ARO...., posted on November 2, 2009 at 19:51:40
Shane from AUS
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 Kuma

I have a ARO. Their alignment systems is fine as long as the cantilever is stright. If not, you are screwed.

RE: Cartridge alignment not that big a deal? (Well Tempered Amadeus), posted on November 2, 2009 at 16:03:54
suretyguy
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Posts: 2154
Location: western Missouri
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 Interesting...Firebaugh is the second long established, successful designer/manufacturer to fly in the face of some of the conventional wisdom about the importance of certain aspects of turntable/arm setup. The other, of course, is Roy Gandy of Rega. But I'm sure we have some habituees of this site who'll get them straightened out.

Roy Gandy expects you to use his cart with his arm and table...., posted on November 3, 2009 at 10:28:51
richardl
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Posts: 1914
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 which give his preferred alignment and the reason people don't is, the carts are not so pleasant IMO.

If it works, it works., posted on November 2, 2009 at 16:44:05
Muzikmike
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 I just wonder what if they were, in fact, adjustable?


There is no such thing as too many records.
There is just too little room for them!
Well....if it was "accepted" practice, posted on November 2, 2009 at 15:42:56
Muzikmike
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 none of us would have to do it as all of our arms would have the same, no adjustment necessary advisory.

The Shure cartridge has to be twice the size of the Monster body my SMC10 was housed in.

The AudioNote cartridge has to be twice its size, too.

Both couldn't have optimum sound if placed in the identical place on a tonearm, could they?

I'm looking to see what Ellison has to say about this!


There is no such thing as too many records.
There is just too little room for them!
I'm a linear tracker, have been for the last year., posted on November 2, 2009 at 15:18:48
olddude55
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 I don't even know where my protractors are.
___
From the Industrial Hub of the Mid-Mon Valley!
RE: I'm a linear tracker, have been for the last year., posted on November 3, 2009 at 21:20:37
vinyl survivor
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Posts: 191
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 I remember many vinyl listening sessions with my father in the 1970's and 1980's with his Rabco TT and always enjoyed it! :)

Yeah, I'm coming around, too...., posted on November 2, 2009 at 21:40:22
doodlebug
Audiophile

Posts: 1741
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
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 While I have the SL1200, I picked up a mid-70s Harman-Kardon/Rabco ST7 linear tracking TT this past spring. After restoring it, I'm quite impressed to the point that the SL1200 hasn't been out of the box since the Rabco went into use.

It sings quite well with the Shure M97xe right now.

The restoration work, however, is not for the faint of heart and I had to pull the measurments off of the little jig that HK provided to set overhang and the vertical tracking angle. A local guy who had the jig was nice enough to allow me to use it long enough to figure out how to make a jig of my own.

Cheers,

David

The benefits outweigh any aggravation., posted on November 3, 2009 at 04:25:05
olddude55
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Posts: 25156
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 I got an eye- and ear-opening demonstration here a few weeks ago.
Buddy of mine came over for a football game and wanted to hear his old Kenwood 2055 that I cleaned up and repaired a couple of years ago. It has a Transcriptors Vestigal/Sonus Dimension 5 combo on it.
I played a couple of tracks on the Kenwood, then my friend asked to hear the Rabco/Technics.
The difference was dramatic. The soundstage got wider and taller, the music just seemed to leap out of the speakers.
I have that Vestigal set up better than it's ever been and it does sound sweet. There's no inner-groove distortion, etc. But even the clanky old SL-8E blew it away.
The best way I can describe the difference is that a straight line arm removes a layer of distortion that you don't even know is there until it's gone.
___
From the Industrial Hub of the Mid-Mon Valley!
RE: I'm a linear tracker, have been for the last year., posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:52:52
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 4851
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 But you still have to set zero overhang and make sure the arm is at true perpendicular to that?

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
As an LT-30 owner/user, posted on November 3, 2009 at 05:45:22
mt10425
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 there's two easy ways to set carts. One is with the plastic headshell tool which comes with some arms and second is to measure (I use a t-square) from front of deck to spindle center, then use a paper (or other) alignment tool to make sure there's a straight line toward the arm. Make sure measurement is the same as to the spindle, lock the platter and set the cart on the line.



"Apparently, people now believe that mental telepathy is the foundation of communication and magic is the source of daily events. Consequently, we no longer have to participate in our own lives."
Yep., posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:58:13
olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 25156
Location: Pittsburgh
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 But no protractor is necessary for that.
My second table is a Beogram. The cartridge plugs into the end of the tone arm and that's that. Zero overhang is already set and the cart can't be anything other than straight and centered.
___
From the Industrial Hub of the Mid-Mon Valley!

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