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Denon DL-103R Initial Experience & Question about Loading - -

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Posted on November 1, 2009 at 20:58:12
AbeCollins
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 I spend literally hours last night trying different protractors to get my Denon DL-103R cartridge aligned on my Technics SL1200mkII. My wife came down from the bedroom to my basement listening room at 4 a.m. and scolded me for being a nut case!

I was splitting hairs trying to get the DL-103R aligned just perfect and decided that the DB Systems Protractor was the one to use in my case. I couldn't get the Turn Table Basics mirrored protractor to work at all. The first point on the mirror wouldn't line up no matter what I did so no chance of ever getting the second point to align. I suspect that it wasn't designed for the Technics SL1200mkII with it's curved arm. IN any case, it's perfectly aligned now as best I can tell.

Side note: Installing the cartridge on the Technics SL1200mkII arm using just the simple Technics supplied overhang tool got me real close. As does the on-arm counter weight and gram scale for VTF. Do I dare say that you don't need ANY special tools to get very decent results from this turntable? (I was already very close on the alignment before using the DB Systems protractor. And very close on the VTF, well within range, before using the digital scale).

In any case, I'm finally starting to listen to some records on the DL-103R. It's a wonderful sounding cartridge but in all honesty, it's not like a night and day difference vs the high output MC Denon DL-160. The DL-103R might be more "all there" and "together". Is cohesive the right word? Huh? That's real technical and descriptive! It's hard to explain but at this point I have a whole 2 hours on the cartridge. It doesn't jump out at me in any way. The DL-160 jumped out at me as being more alive vs the AT120E and although the DL-103R also has nice dynamics it's not giving me the same "jaw dropping" crap my pants OMG! experience as the AT120E/DL160 comparison. ;-)

OK so my question is about loading. The little instruction sheet that came with the DL-103R says "Load Impedance: 100 Ohms min. (40 Ohms when using a transformer).

I'm using the Graham Slee EXP head amp and have it set to 100 Ohms. Yes, it sounds wonderful. No complaints. But when I switch it down to 30 Ohms, it starts to sound a little dull. But, I'm thinking that I may actually like it even better at 840 to 1000 Ohms vs the 100 Ohms recommended by Denon.

Is this normal? Is this a matter of personal preference? Are my ears broken? Thanks.

The Graham Slee EXP loading choices. Presently set to 100 Ohms:
Have you tried experimenting..., posted on November 20, 2009 at 07:10:25
Ben
 ...with the optional-extra headshell weight and tone arm counter-weight that come with the Technics? The implication is that DL103 prefers a heavier tonearm and both of those add-ons would increase arm mass.

Abe - load at 840ohms, then listen and wait for everything to settle in, posted on November 2, 2009 at 20:15:50
Shane from AUS
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 .

Abe, as other posters have suggested, posted on November 2, 2009 at 06:10:33
1973shovel
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 Give both the EXP and 103R some break in time. And be grateful you have the ease of flipping switches on the EXP. I have to solder resistors in my CineMags to get the type of changes you can experience with the fiip of a finger. [insert off-color joke here]

So flip away! You certainly can't hurt anything like you might playing with tube bias, etc.
Switching, posted on November 2, 2009 at 06:59:15
Plinko
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 With the Lundahls, one can simply plug in the resistor needed. It is a nice feature and eliminates the small signal switching. Although, I have yet to see any pragmatic evidence/first hand experience that the extra switches degrade the sound enough that one can hear. I asked this question some time ago and received no response. Maybe it's just basic knowledge but I haven't done the tests with a transformer to see if I could hear it.

Of course, if one is adept at soldering. Takes mere seconds to desolder/solder a couple resistors.

The Cinemag is great and I liked it better than the LL9206, which was colored. Nice but colored. However, the newer Lundahl LL1931 is more transparent and doesn't seem to be "there" at all.

contact noise, posted on November 3, 2009 at 00:13:45
Ugly
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 Closed switch contacts are not continuously conductive paths but are seperated by tiny gaps. For current to flow through these tiny gaps there must be micro arcing. The arcing creates broadband EMI signals for the same reason the old brushed DC motors that were/are notorious for this issue. The EMI gets recieved by the various circuitry and shows up as random noise. Obviously it's not a probem on the same scale as an old drill motor with high quality switches but it's still there.

On a related note: all conductors, being imperfect in physical makeup, will exhibit contact noise at some level due to voids, impurities, etc. It is only a question of how much.

thanks Ugly, posted on November 3, 2009 at 16:11:19
Plinko
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 It's really interesting to know and understand this.

You bet. n/t, posted on November 4, 2009 at 12:19:02
Ugly
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Switch it. Switch it good., posted on November 2, 2009 at 07:48:27
1973shovel
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 I have no experience with switches in the signal path, so I can't comment. Similarly, I could have added binding posts to the CineMag enclosure for ease of resistor changes, as some have done. But I went with the "The less in the signal path the better" philosophy, and hard wired mine in.

Thanks for sharing your experience with the Lundahl LL1931 transformers. The more choices we have, the better. Except for the going crazy trying to make a decision part, that is.

RE: Switch it. Switch it good., posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:26:46
Plinko
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 Binding posts or some other solution...duh...didn't think of that! Sounds like the way to go if flexibility is needed.
Binding posts..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 18:17:23
tketcham
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 That's what Ron Sutherland uses in the AcousTech PH-1P phono preamp. One of the reasons why I chose the PH-1P. I can set the onboard resistance to 47K and install any resistor I want. I bought a whole range of resistors for resistor swapping. They're cheap. Currently using some 2.2K resistors with a LOMC cartridge.

Tom

nice, posted on November 3, 2009 at 05:32:23
Plinko
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 I think Naim and Vacuum State use a similar concept.

RE: Denon DL-103R Initial Experience & Question about Loading - -, posted on November 2, 2009 at 05:11:35
blake
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 Load it where it sounds best to you Abe.

Bear in mind that cartridges need to break in, some longer than others. You've been changing cartridges almost as fast as underwear. The AT 120E, for example, is notorious for a longer break-in period, up to 100 hours. Unless you put 75-100 hours on it you probably never even came close to hearing what it is capable of.

Your 103R will sound considerably better around the 15 hour mark and I mean considerably better and then marginally improve through about the 50 hour mark-I wouldn't make any judgements until then and that's when I'd really hunker down on experimenting with loading, VTF etc. to dial it in.

For a guy like you who is really experimenting with cartridges the Cardas Sweep Record is indispensable. About 2-3 hours on the burn in tracks will get you almost completely through the break in process on any cartridge.

FWIW, I have the AT 120E in a secondary system and use the 103R (in a wood body) in my main system. I also own the Cardas Sweep Record and would not be without it.

I used the Cardas sweep to break in one of my Dynavectors, posted on November 2, 2009 at 09:11:43
hukkfinn
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 and it goofed up the cartridge's sound. It was the only Dynavector 20x I've owned that sounded weird to me.

I vowed after that experience to break in cartridges naturally, using real records, giving the cartridge "breaks" between albums, rather than many hours at a time in a groove.

Hukk
RE: I used the Cardas sweep to break in one of my Dynavectors, posted on November 2, 2009 at 09:34:42
blake
 Sorry that you had that experience. Maybe it was bad before you broke it in?

I've used the Sweep Record on a number of cartridges and only had positive results with respect to break in. The idea of spending 50-100 hours listening to a cartridge when it is far from its best just doesn't appeal to me when I can get it there in a couple of hours.

RE: I used the Cardas sweep to break in one of my Dynavectors, posted on November 2, 2009 at 16:08:53
AbeCollins
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 I may not use a record like the Cardas for break-in but I'm still interested for testing tracking and channel balance.

RE: Denon DL-103R Initial Experience & Question about Loading - -, posted on November 2, 2009 at 03:06:00
amioutaline?
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 As with all components, IMHO, you've already heard the general character of the 103r in your system. Rest assured, tho', what it does well it will do better as it heads toward 60 or so albums.

Have you ever tried the arc protractor at Vinyl Engine?, posted on November 2, 2009 at 02:40:47
olddude55
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 It's free and there's a protractor specific to the Technics arm. It's accurate, too; I checked it against one made by KWILLIS and it matched.
The arc protractors are much easier to use than the line-it-up-with-the-pivot types.
___
From the Industrial Hub of the Mid-Mon Valley!
RE: Have you ever tried the arc protractor at Vinyl Engine?, posted on November 2, 2009 at 06:32:14
nikongod
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 a third vote for getting some of the free protractors from vinylengine.

I must toss in a recommendation for the "AccuTrack" protractor. Although not an "ARC" protractor, it has stephenson alignment points. IME, a technics arm can be exceptionally difficult to make line up with anything else.

I agree about the arc protractors ... Also Abe may need to know, posted on November 2, 2009 at 06:14:44
texanater
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 about different alignment schemes. Forgive me if you understood this Abe but it sounds like you might be confused on one point. There are many alignment schemes. The technics overhang tool is designed around a different alignment than baerwald and will NOT align with baerwald protractor. You can simply use the technics overhang tool and call it a day. Many think there are better alignment schemes out there but at least you know you are settled in a good one.

I say set with the overhang tool until you've found a protractor that is easy for you to use based on the alignment scheme you prefer. Baerwald is probably accepted by most as being the best but of course others disagree. I use baerwald but really don't have a dog in that fight.

Nate

There comes a time in the affairs of a man when he must take the bull by the tail and face the situation -- W.C. Fields
RE: I agree about the arc protractors ... Also Abe may need to know, posted on November 2, 2009 at 08:39:53
AbeCollins
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 I knew there were different styles of protractors but didn't realize there were so many alignment schemes.

I used the Technics supplied overhang tool and then used the Turn Table Basics mirrored arc protractor. It wasn't even close -anywhere- and no matter where I put the cartridge on the headshell the Turn Table Basics could not be used for alignment. I strongly suspect that this particular Turn Table Basics arc protractor was not designed to be used with my SL-1200mkII.

On the other hand, the DB Systems protractor (MusicDirect) lined up the cartridge perfectly. I don't know what alignment scheme they use but it works. And as stated earlier, using the overhang tool as described by Technics brought it within the ballpark and the final adjustment was made with the DB Systems protractor.

I'm curious about the Ken Willis arc protractor and may just buy one. I have the paper version for my SL1200mkII but the stiff laminated plastic one would be a lot easier to use.

DB Systems Protractor
RE: I agree about the arc protractors ... Also Abe may need to know, posted on November 4, 2009 at 08:51:09
John Elison
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 Your experience shows just how difficult it is to align a cartridge correctly. The DB Systems protractor and the Turntable Basics protractor both use the Löfgren A (Baerwald) alignment with null-points at 66-mm and 120.9-mm. Therefore, they should agree with each other completely.

Best regards,
John Elison

For what it's worth..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 09:50:01
olddude55
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 The TTB protractor is Baerwald, the Technics alignment jig isn't.
But honestly, I've lined cartridges up in the Technics arm using both Baerwald and the Technics alignment jig and the result was the same.
I think the key isn't so much which alignment method you use, just that that you get it aligned.
___
From the Industrial Hub of the Mid-Mon Valley!
Denon does not recommend 100-ohms...., posted on November 1, 2009 at 21:52:27
John Elison
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 Denon recommends a load greater than 100-ohms. Therefore, whatever you think sounds best is the correct load for your situation.

Now that you have a system with the quality of the SL-1200, DL-103R, and Graham Slee, it is unlikely you will ever hear a night-and-day improvement again regardless of how much more money you spend on your vinyl front-end.

Good luck,
John Elison

...never again..., posted on November 20, 2009 at 12:11:56
BdBx
 "Now that you have a system with the quality...it is unlikely you will ever hear a night-and-day improvement again..."

And that right there is the tragedy of finding great Hi-Fi for less.
This is a heartbreaker for him! To have reached so high on the graph of diminishing returns so cheaply is a disaster. There's nowhere to go. He'll have to find a new hobby or spend all his money on speakers. Too bad he didn't go through countless Rega, Sumiko, Music Hall models. He could have spent much more and had more fun chasing the golden sound. :-)

Wow, you've outdone yourself. That last sentence cracked me up. Thanks, John :-) nt, posted on November 2, 2009 at 09:48:18
Rick W
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 nt

RE: "it is unlikely you will ever hear a night-and-day improvement again "., posted on November 2, 2009 at 05:36:42
1973shovel
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 John, I have great respect for your knowledge regarding numbers, and more specifically their application to audio.

But I'm going to take exception to your statement that any differences in anything else Abe might ever try in his analog set-up, no matter what the cost, would likely be subtle at best.

From what I've read, you consider your change from a SOTA to the Technics largely a lateral move. That speaks well for the Technics, given the SOTA's reputation.

My table progression was from a Technics SL-110 to two different Maplenolls, and currently to a Roksan Xerxes X. The Xerxes X, while certainly a fine table, was sonically a major step down from the Maplenoll. My Technics and Roksan are a closer sonic match, but the differences between them and the Maplenoll are anything but subtle.

While terms like "night and day", "jaw dropping" etc. are certainly subjective, there is something to be said for experience. Unless you've had direct experience with tables like the Walker Proscenium, or some other ultra design, making a statement based on supposition is dismissive. And that's not usually your style.

As you say, this is a subjective call, but I do speak from experience...., posted on November 2, 2009 at 07:08:39
John Elison
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 Although I have never heard a Walker Proscenium, I have heard Mike Lavigne's Rockport Sirius III. Furthermore, I made high-resolution digital recordings of Mike's Rockport, which I subsequently compared to my own vinyl front-end. The differences are subtle.

Best regards,
John Elison

hm..not what you have posted before John.., posted on November 2, 2009 at 10:30:44
rich121
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 I guess you have forgotten previous statements you made about Mike Lavigne's Rockport III, and system:



" Listening to Mike's system was truly an awe inspiring experience for me. Vinyl played from the Rockport/Colibri was nothing short of spectacular. You have to hear it to believe it"

" it was the first time I felt that I could actually hear a difference between digital and vinyl"

" the finest system that I have ever heard"

" a vinyl system of the highest caliber in an acoustic of spectacular design. Your listening room and your system are absolutely awesome"

" Mike's system is something to behold. If you haven't heard it, you haven't heard the most impressive stereo system in the world"

"Mike’s stereo system is the most impressive stereo system that either of us has ever heard. In fact, all who listened made that comment"

"it is the most impressive stereo system I have ever heard"


I think these two statements of Mike Lavignes Rockport turntable sum it up:


"I think the Rockport Sirius III is the finest turntable in the world"

"Moreover, I believe his Rockport Sirius III turntable and his listening room are the two most outstanding components in his system"

John, I was at Mike's during the "Challenge", and know what you have said personally.


Rick
It's all about the music!
I'm not talking about Mike's system..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 11:02:07
John Elison
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 I'm talking about Mike's vinyl front-end. You must have missed all the posts I've written about that. I prefer the sound of my own vinyl front-end to Mike's although the differences are not "night-and-day." Furthermore, if you had received one of the 55 comparison CD-Rs that I sent out to Asylum inmates, you would be able to hear for yourself.

With regard to the Rockport Sirius III, I still believe it is the finest turntable in the world, but that doesn't mean it is "jaw-dropping" better than mine. I also believe that the Rockport Sirius III and Mike's listening room were his two most outstanding components at that time. However, a vinyl front-end also includes a cartridge and a phono preamp. I don't like Mike's darTZeel phono preamp, which made it impossible to judge his cartridge. Furthermore, if you happened to have heard my CD-R played on Mike's Meitner CD player, you will remember how horrible that Meitner CD player sounded compared to my Audio Alchemy. Now that was a "night-and-day" difference.

Best regards,
John Elison

RE: I'm not talking about Mike's system..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:30:20
rich121
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 When listening to the CD-R, you hear YOUR gear recording from the Rockport...then that is processed through whatever audio system... this does not sound anything like what it does through Mikes, as it can't.

I don't believe this to be an accurate rendition, as there are too many variables in the recording/playback process.

Where I would say that shows the most are your comments before and after listening to your recordings...
Before you state that it is the best sytem in the world, but, when you talk about what you recorded, you find it flawed and not as enjoyable as your own system...
This I would say is proof of a flaw in your assumption that the CD-R is a perfect rendition of Mike's front end... which by the way, you gave the best of praise, and even stated:

"Vinyl played from the Rockport/Colibri was nothing short of spectacular. You have to hear it to believe it"

This was just one of many statements you "posted", not counting statements you made while at Mike's.

I would say, to be most accurate, that the recording you made using Mike's front end, using your cables and gear... that the CD-R you made does not agree with your system.

Your system, your cables, the CD-R itself and your playback system and especially your room acoustics all have an effect.

I would say it to not be the most accurate way to judge someone elses gear, especially when you compare the "before" statements you made, to the ones you are making now...

My opinion...


Rick
It's all about the music!
John, I knew it was a risk, posted on November 2, 2009 at 08:01:19
1973shovel
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 To imply you had no experience in this area. It was something I should have addressed in my initial post.

I've never heard (or even seen) the Rockport, except in pictures. That goes for any of the "ultra" tables, except for four in the Maplenoll line. And that goes for the Walker Proscenium too. I only included it because it is apparently a more refined version of the basic Maplenoll design.

I suppose we'll have to chalk this up to the oft used "Your experience is apparently different than mine." (Unless it's simply that the Rockport wasn't as good as reported)

a cartridge loading is definitely about personal preference...., posted on November 1, 2009 at 21:35:07
kuma
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 I don't have a suitable arm for the 103R ( ARO being too light ), but the best loading for me was higher than what's recommended.

A 100 ohms loading on the either 103 or 103R was rather dull. But then again, I could never get them to sing on my set up.

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