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Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics

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Posted on October 17, 2009 at 16:34:36
AbeCollins
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  Since: February 2, 2002
 So I'm totally thrilled with my budget turntable setup including the high-value $179 USD Cambridge 640p phono pre. It's sounding wonderful with my Denon HOMC DL160 cartridge and for $179 who can complain? I would recommend it highly for someone like me just getting started and not wanting to spend a fortune.

I opened the 640p and took a handful of quick snap shot photos of the inner guts which are available here in Vinyl Asylum several threads further down the page. You get a LOT of parts for the money in the 640p including a complete MM and MC section with their front-end shielded in copper and internal DC power supply that is partitioned off in aluminum. Go take a look at the photos (linked below) and you'll see what I mean.

My used Graham Slee Era Gold V arrived today. It's a nice looking but very basic MM only phono pre. I put it into my system and WOW! The first thing I notice is that it's more transparent than my Cambridge 640p. Cymbals come alive with crystal clarity and the bass is better defined.... not deeper just better detail and again with sharper transient "snap" on the leading edge. The sound is still smooth all around and not "etched" but the leading edge of strings and percussion instruments are sharper sounding. The whole thing seems more transparent and "clear".

But look what's inside!! Hardly anything and it costs $999 USD MSRP vs $179. Where are all the parts!? Less is more? This one is worth reverse engineering for a DIYer with time on his hands.

I tried to see what opamp Graham Slee used in this design but the part number was painted over with a black sharpe pen. I could tell that there was a part number hiding under there but I couldn't make it out. Not until I broke out my 10x loupe and put it under a lamp at just the right angle.

It's an Analog Devices AD817 single opamp made for very high speed signals including image acquisition and video. If you google "AD817 opamp" the datasheet is readily available in PDF.

The stock PS Audio GCPH should be here next week and might give the Graham Slee Era Gold V some competition. We'll soon see and I'll post my findings here.










 

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Re: the Cambridge..., posted on October 17, 2009 at 16:40:49
olddude55
 it's an excellent phono stage, but...
Just out of curiosity, I picked up a DB Systems DB-8 and I think your "less is more" track is spot on. The DB is quieter than the Cambridge and to my ears more accurate. It's also US made, while the Cambridge is made in China if that matters (not a knock against the Chinese. I got nothing but love for my fellow man).
The DB-8 is in a simple black box and it's half the size of the Cambridge.

 

Less is more! cool report, posted on October 17, 2009 at 16:45:54
beach cruiser
Audiophile

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 Kind of like life, the guys with the most confusion and conflicts on the job have less ability and poorer results than the guys who are able to run a high function without a lot of drama.

I am very interested in both of the products, the Slee and the Ps. Specifically which is quieter. I have dead quiet now (!) but it is a built in section, so both of those products would probably be a step up, if the noise is not a step backwards.

 

Yup., posted on October 17, 2009 at 17:25:07
JimK
 My previous two phono preamps had a lot more electronic "guts" to them than does my Wright AG Phono, and the Wright kicks their respective butts! (My system, my room, yadda, yadda, yadda, ad infinitum).

Less stuff, less chance of "mucking up" the music. IOW, "less is more".

(Opus, you wanna chime-in here?)

 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on October 17, 2009 at 17:44:49
John Elison
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 That's very interesting for such an expensive component. I wonder how expensive the parts are. There are so few that it seems like it could be hand-wired from a breadboard. It might be worth reverse engineering.

Thanks,
John Elison

 

One thing you don't see in the Grahm, posted on October 17, 2009 at 17:45:45
Phil_S
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Posts: 1145
Location: Washington DC
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 is a power suppy. It's fed 24V DC from a wall wart. That's one reason why ther are fewer parts. A more elegant design is also a factor.

 

RE: had a Slee, now have a GCPH, posted on October 17, 2009 at 17:53:27
thegage
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Location: Western Mass.
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 The Slee in my system was boring and uninvolving. The GCPH (with Underwood mods) definitely engaging. YMMV, but I was surprised at how underwhelmed I was by the Slee. System synergy is the key, I think.

John K.

 

These single amp units are becoming common..., posted on October 17, 2009 at 18:19:32
Bry
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Location: S. Florida
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 With a single stage you place all the eq in the op-amp's feedback loop.

I doubt there's much difference between the Behringer PP400 and this except the quality of the parts.

Here is a link to the VSPS, and see the link below for my pics of the PP400:

 

DB Systems..., posted on October 17, 2009 at 18:56:29
blake
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Posts: 803
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 I've owned both DB Systems phono preamps (MM & MC) and still have the MM in use in a second system. The circuit is remarkably simple; I ended up having some different capacitors soldered into the MC stage to increase the gain and the tech/dealer that did the work thought that it was a bit of a joke and couldn't possibly sound very good. But they do.

Very good value, particularly if you can pick one up used at a bargain price. And David Hadaway is excellent to deal with if you need to modify or make any changes. A product that really flies under the radar.

 

RE: One thing you don't see in the Grahm, posted on October 17, 2009 at 19:02:19
AbeCollins
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 Power supply and MC section aside, still much fewer parts in the Era Gold vs Cambridge 640p. And BTW, the Slee power supply unit is in a fairly hefty outboard box.

 

RE: One thing you don't see in the Grahm, posted on October 17, 2009 at 19:26:03
John Elison
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 It appears from the photos that the Slee simply takes 24-VDC. It's regulator seems to be in the preamp box so I suspect you could connect a couple of 12-V SLA batteries in series. Unless all the other parts are exceedingly expensive, it appears that the Slee is considerably over priced.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

Are you kiddin'?, posted on October 17, 2009 at 19:49:30
Fretless
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 That thing is downright complex compared to something like Art Audio's triode phono preamp. This MM/MC circuit is about as simple as they come including a 6FQ7 regulated power supply, a pair of step-up trannies and two different sounding sets of outputs (filtered and unfiltered). As others have commented, I've found that, all things being equal, the simpler the circuit, the more involving, lively and coherent the musical presentation tends to be, or "the more they overtake the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." ;0)















 

Yes, less is more! Another good example..., posted on October 17, 2009 at 19:53:38
DanWKW
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Location: Hong Kong
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Nagra VPS phono. The schematics inside is very simple but it is an extremely sophisticated design. To my ears, it reaches an equilibrium between "neutrality" and "musicality", and is one of the best phono money can buy on the market. Of course, there are a lot of good budget phono amps made in Europe(incl UK), too.






 

RE: One thing you don't see in the Grahm, posted on October 17, 2009 at 20:13:58
AbeCollins
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 Attaching two 12v batteries in series has crossed my mind and it does appear that there's a simple 3-terminal regulator inside case just after the blocking diode for polarity protection.

I have to agree, $999 MSRP for maybe $100 in parts is rather pricey. I suspect that the case costs more than the electronics! But hey, it does sound pretty awesome and would make for a great reverse engineering project. ;-)

 

RE: One thing you don't see in the Grahm, posted on October 17, 2009 at 20:31:22
Bry
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 I can almost reverse engineer it from the photos. It looks like a 3-terminal voltage regulator (7815 or 7812 maybe?), 2 op-amps and an RIAA feedback network. Add in some coupling caps and loading resistors and you've accounted for everything on the board. A nice extruded aluminum box like that is perhaps $20 from Mouser.

The single-sided circuit board appears to be dual-purpose (or at least supports a more feature-laden model).

I bet they're making a killing on these.

EDIT:
I remember back when I was a "regular" at a local hi-fi shop. The guy who owned the place had an expression, "The price is the product." He simply meant that products with high price tags attract customers who would not consider them at a lower price.

 

The fewer the parts, the better the sound......., posted on October 17, 2009 at 20:45:59
Marc Bratton
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 My experience has been the same. Even with SS. I guess the trick is, as Albert Einstein once said, to make it as simple as possible, but no simpler.

 

Dunno..., posted on October 17, 2009 at 22:23:00
kuma
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This one sounds pretty good.
I also own the Phonocube which uses just 25 parts/channel and it is excellent with their own cartridge also.


 

Keep in mind..., posted on October 17, 2009 at 22:34:47
spyderx
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 This sells for $700 in the UK, give or take. So you are dealing with markup with the US. And don't forget the cost of engineering, plus the power supply, which is a bit more than "just a wall wart". These are also hand assembled in the UK.

So yeah, sum of parts? Seems expensive. But, I'm also in the software business, and let me tell you how little it costs to produce what we sell, AFTER you take out the engineering to get the product to market. What if it took him 6mo to get it just right, the way he wanted it to sound? Gotta recoup that somehow. Hey, the BAT phono stage for my integrated is $750+ and I don't get a nice case!

These are also not high volume items. The guy makes a nice product, employees people, makes it locally. And he needs to make a buck. But I can just about bet he's not getting rich off these things!

BTW, the Reflex model is a bit more complex, I should pop mine open and take a pic & post.

Regardless, these things sound very nice if you are OK with MM or HOMC (and I am, I have had the Reflex for a year and enjoy it daily).

 

RE: Keep in mind..., posted on October 17, 2009 at 23:32:23
AbeCollins
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 As I mentioned, the US MSRP is $999 for the Era Gold but I have no idea what US dealers are actually selling them for and if they're discounted at all. The Reflex is about $1250 to $1350, only a bit more.

I have no complaints about the simplicity of the Era Gold design. I am thrilled that it sounds so wonderful and may ultimately keep it around for a long time. We'll see how the stock PS Audio GCPH compares in about a week.

I read about a Graham Slee Reflex M which is THE latest version which had to undergo a complete redesign of the power supply to meet strict European Union standards. They had to go with a switch mode supply rather than the more traditional linear power supply. I read that KAB, the guys who modify Technics SL1200 series turntables, also had to redesign their outboard power supply using switch mode technology.

I'm wondering if this EU law applies to outboard power supplies only (wall warts and such) or if it includes power supplies built within the same chassis as the electronics it is powering.

This makes me wonder if buyers should jump on current to older model phono stages that still operate off traditional linear power supplies.

I'll start a separate thread about this above.

 

Right, posted on October 17, 2009 at 23:56:11
spyderx
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 My comments were more directed at the "it's over priced" statements below. Not yours. I'm also a fan of the simplicity of his designs, and think they sound amazingly good.

BTW... I had sent Graham Slee an email earlier today asking what was "new" in the Reflex M that spawned a post on his message board about the new design of the Reflex M being done because of the new power supply law (link below). I think this law only affects "always on" wall warts. GSP suggests you leave his units on all the time to keep the circuit stabilized. You'll notice that the Reflex M is available with the PSU1 (at least for now!), his standard linear supply, or the "green" cheapy switching supply. I guess if these sound great with an off the shelf cheap power supply they'll sound better with the liner models.

 

Same Here As Well!, posted on October 18, 2009 at 00:26:10
amandarae
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 Cannot explain it well, but many people asked me why I sold the Hagerman Trumpet and kept the Cornet II. Well, the Cornet II is a great sounding phono preamp and I still love mine, but the real reason is this

A simple phono section derived from a very old RCA manual. Shown is a FF preamp, the perimeter surrounded by the batteries is the phono preamp. I can built two or three of this thing for less money. When I demo my system, I use this phono section exclusively.

regards

 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on October 18, 2009 at 00:35:55
Peter H-son
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Posts: 1403
Joined: October 17, 2007
 I cannot see what there is to reverse engineer. It is a traditional single opamp MM preamp with a single-rail PSU.

$999? That's crazy.

And there is nothing less about an opamp. An opamp is a very complex device.





The Simplistic NJFET RIAA thread at DIY Audio has a great, minimalist phono preamp. For less than $50 and no gimmicks, you will get a phono preamp that is at least as good as any $5,000 to $10,000 solid-state phono preamp.

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up"
--James 5:14-15

 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on October 18, 2009 at 01:22:07
Werner
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Actually the original Era Gold I got to review in 2001 was hardwired on perfboard. With the review in progress I critiqued this, and the sound, and as a result Graham developed further, sending me parts and update information more than once, which I applied to the product sample I had. At the same time he moved it to a real PCB and a nicer housing.

The (then-)final product sounded very sweet and transparent, although dynamic, power, and imaging were limited. Mind, I used it with a 1.6mV MC cartridge.


And then you wake up and realise that your classmates of old ... are running most of the TV shows.

 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on October 18, 2009 at 01:26:53
Werner
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"This one is worth reverse engineering for a DIYer with time on his hands."

Someone at diyaudio.com did this years ago on an earlier version. I can't find the original thread over there, but you see the circuit. Warning: there are some errors in there!

The regulator is a regular 7818 or so.

The lesser Slee phonoamps use the same (or a similar) circuit, with 5532 opamps and perhaps cheaper caps.

The vacant space you see on the PCB is for the Jazz Club switchable equalisation.

And then you wake up and realise that your classmates of old ... are running most of the TV shows.

 

"overpriced"...."$999, that is crazy"...., posted on October 18, 2009 at 02:57:08
hukkfinn
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 Very cool post Abe.

I would disagree with those below who say it's overpriced.

Reason 1. I think it's fair to charge for better sound. If it sounds better than lower-priced models and looks at least decent (both true for the Era Gold V), I think it SHOULD cost more and parts cost is irrelevant.

Reason 2. For those who feel that pricing has to reflect "what went into the product": as mentioned in a post below, doesn't Mr. Slee deserve to be compensated for THINKING OF this design. Whether it's Unusual Choice Of Parts, or Unusual Assembly, if he gets unusual-sounding results, I think he rightly charges more. And he does get unusual results -- the Era Gold V sounds seductively clear, fast and musical.

-Hukk

 

tantalum caps too, posted on October 18, 2009 at 05:15:41
1973shovel
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 Interesting.

Do a search of the entire Asylum for tantalum capacitors and you won't find many (any?) good comments. Still, in the right hands, with the right circuit, I've read of good results before. Seems their use is a bit more common in British gear, including Naim.

Thanks for posting, Abe.

 

RE: tantalum caps too, posted on October 18, 2009 at 06:48:56
Peter H-son
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 I would not turn to an asylum for opinions.

Seriously, tantalums are no worse than electrolytics. They are great for decoupling, as they are used here.

Ceramic caps on the other hand...

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up"
--James 5:14-15

 

RE: tantalum caps too, posted on October 18, 2009 at 08:10:56
Werner
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 Tantalums do have more distortion than most aluminium electrolytics, are
less resistant to overvoltage, and short when stressed, as opposed to blowing open. To be avoided.

But appearances can be deceiving. What seem to be two tantalums
coupling the input signal are in fact solid aluminiums.

And then you wake up and realise that your classmates of old ... are running most of the TV shows.

 

RE: nothing less about an opamp..., posted on October 18, 2009 at 09:44:08
Bry
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 Yep. When it comes to IC's, you can't just count the parts.

 

fair price, posted on October 18, 2009 at 11:14:07
stark
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 There is an old joke about a shop that sells 10 cent pickles and 5 cent pickles, both that are taken from the same barrel in the basement much to the dismay of the new shop attendant. As Bry pointed out, people are willing to pay it because they think that the price is always reflective of the quality of the equipment. It's not. A simple circuit is a simple circuit. In the case of one that uses an op-amp, it can be a design suggested by the manufacturer of that op-amp, so very little engineering was necessary. (This is not intended as a criticism of circuits with opamps. I use one myself.) Try looking at the spec sheet for the Analog Devices AD817 or OP27 and see for yourself.

It's true that a fair price should be based both on the parts involved and in the cost to design something. However, there are a lot of circuits around, and "design" in this case generally does not mean making a brand new circuit, so is not something that requires a huge investment. It's more a matter of adjusting existing designs to currently available parts.

There is an old review of preamps in the Audio Critic by David Rich that I found quite informative:

http://theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_18_r.pdf

David Rich puts forward the idea that there are a lot of ways to build a preamp (phono and line) and the industry has not settled on a single method, so there is not one circuit that is better than all the others. You can either buy based on claims of designing for better sound (which is not easily quantifiable let alone testable) or by the quality i.e. durability of the parts used. A circuit using capacitors rated to 105C will last longer than one using those rated to 85C. Switches are also something that can make a huge difference.

The price for parts with a volume discount (as is the case for a manufacturer) are significantly lower than what a lone hobbyist can get. As a result, some of those who make "audiophile" equipment can charge a huge amount over their costs. This reminds me of nothing so much as big name fashion designers selling their wares for massive markups on items manufactured under sweatshop conditions. People will pay for the marketing and prestige while ignoring everything else.

Most are unwilling or unable to make something themselves, so cost of parts is not an issue. If you are I recommend checking out RJM audio's phonoclone which works for many low output mc cartridges. Elliot Sound Products has various designs including one for an mm stage with switchable equalization suitable for playing old 78s.

--stark

 

They confuse material value with sonic accomplishment. The Slee circuit is actually......................., posted on October 18, 2009 at 11:26:57
viridian
 ..........quite unusual in the modern world of audio. RIAA EQ is accomplished actively, as opposed to passive RIAA EQ sandwiched between two gain stages, which is the topology used in almost every current RIAA stage.

One would say that it is unique, except for the fact that, before the 1970s, pretty much all RIAA stages were built with active EQ. Was it the RG preamp that was the first to use a hybrid stage, passively achieveing the high frequency part of the EQ, but actively boosting the LF? I don't remember, but I am sure that those with more knowledge will pipe in.

It is an imperfect analogy, but a great painter can still paint a masterpiece, even with cheap paints.

 

this all works...., posted on October 18, 2009 at 11:36:43
hukkfinn
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 ... if the Slee sounds like any old phono pre with cheap parts. It doesn't. It sounds freaking fantastic.

The pickle joke, your words like, "People will pay for the marketing and prestige while ignoring everything else," I see your point for sure, but I would apply that logic to something like Bose speakers. Because I don't think they sound so hot.

Hukk

 

RE: fair price, posted on October 18, 2009 at 11:37:10
AbeCollins
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 You omitted paying based on excellent sonics rather than the academic approach of determining value based solely on parts and manufacturing costs. If that were the metric, the entire audiophile industry would collapse!

"Most are unwilling or unable to make something themselves, so cost of parts is not an issue."

Do you look at cost of parts when you buy a car or tennis shoes? ;-)

 

RE: tantalum caps too, posted on October 18, 2009 at 11:58:03
AbeCollins
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 "Tantalums do have more distortion than most aluminium electrolytics, are less resistant to overvoltage, and short when stressed, as opposed to blowing open. To be avoided."

To be avoided where?

I would agree that they shouldn't be used as coupling caps but the blanket statement that they should be avoided needs to be qualified. Tantalums have several benefits that make them far superior to aluminum electrolytics in many applications.

"less resistant to overvoltage" So spec them accordingly and don't "overvoltage" them.

"short when stressed" If they are spec'd appropriately for the circuit they won't be "stressed". Depending on the circuit, shorting vs opening under stress can be a benefit.




 

RE: I think it's fair to charge for better sound., posted on October 18, 2009 at 13:35:10
Bry
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 Indeed. It's fair to charge whatever you can get as long as you don't misrepresent your product in the process, i.e. if Graham claimed each preamp had $500 worth of gold inside.

The biggest problem Graham has is that their price point has very little protection in the market since the preamp could be built for under $100 by a hobbyist and probably well under $30 in production quantities. I doubt this product is covered by any patents which would keep clones off the market. Indeed, this product is most likely an adaptation of pre-existing designs.

Anyway, if the preamp is actually that good then that's good news for us. It means a very simple and inexpensive circuit can provide top-notch results.

 

electronic parts are by and large all inexpensive, posted on October 18, 2009 at 14:19:06
stark
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 The fact is that the parts in the Graham Slee cost less than the box they are put in. This is not to say that they are cheap parts, or that it doesn't sound good. It's just that good electronic parts don't have to cost very much. Don't you think it's funny that they would try to hide the kind of op-amp they are using by writing over the identifying markings? Doesn't this make you ask: why did they do that? Perhaps it's because what they are selling is not much different from the circuit in the documentation published by the opamp's manufacturers.

So you don't buy the hype for tennis shoes, or certain speakers, but if you think that the same circuit sounds better if you pay $1000 for it than if you pay $50, you bought into some other kind of hype.

--stark

 

a metric for sonics?, posted on October 18, 2009 at 14:27:56
stark
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 The use of the word "metric" when discussing "sonics" is not a good choice because it means that something is being measured. Nothing is being measured. An impression is being made. Some people want to pay in order to make a good impression. This is what keeps the audiophile industry from collapse.

--stark

 

Um, you cant buy a $50 phono pre that sounds as good as the Slee, posted on October 18, 2009 at 14:34:36
hukkfinn
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 Or a $500 phono pre, for that matter. Unless you are doing-it-yourself.
Hukk

 

RE: Um, you cant buy a $50 phono pre that sounds as good as the Slee, posted on October 18, 2009 at 14:55:32
John Elison
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 I wonder how the Slee compares to a Bugle.

If you can build a Bugle, I'll bet you can build your own Slee.

Just a thought!

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: "I would not turn to an asylum for opinions.", posted on October 18, 2009 at 15:05:49
1973shovel
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 Yes, of course. I only hang out here because of all the pretty girls.

I've only had one direct experience with tants, and that was a 1uF on the input of the phono board on my Marantz 1060. I replaced them with a Wima film cap, resulting in a much better sound.

 

RE: Dunno..., posted on October 18, 2009 at 15:14:30
Fretless
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 Looks Naimish - is that a Superline? If so, I have to agree that it's unusually good sounding for a complex SS preamp, with one hell of a lotta vim 'n' vigor. I heard a SuperCap-driven one make mincemeat out of an even more complex Pass XOno.

I wasn't quite as impressed with the 47 Labs Cube-thingy, but that may have been because I heard it demo'ed with a 50WPC Gaincard, so the system coulda been suffering from opamp overkill ;0). BTW, 47's "only the simplest can accommodate the most complex" minuscule parts count claim is a little misleading, seeing as how all those opamps are themselves loaded with parts...





 

I never said that...., posted on October 18, 2009 at 16:12:10
AbeCollins
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 ...But I'm still curious to know if you make your purchasing decisions based on parts and manufacturing costs? ;-)

 

RE: electronic parts are by and large all inexpensive, posted on October 18, 2009 at 16:15:47
AbeCollins
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 "Don't you think it's funny that they would try to hide the kind of op-amp they are using by writing over the identifying markings?"

Not at all. Slee is hardly the only one or the last to try and hide their components. If you look at PS Audio, their so-called "Gain Cell" used in several of their products is completely encased in it's own housing that is inaccessible w/o busting it open and voiding the warranty.

 

if you want to really have fun.., posted on October 18, 2009 at 16:21:16
Lew
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Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 try wiring a tantalum in the wrong polarity. They literally blow up, then catch fire and slowly burn out. Like a magnesium flare. Obviously, I know this from first hand experience, having wired one up in the wrong direction in order to bypass the power input to an IC.

 

RE: if you want to really have fun.., posted on October 18, 2009 at 16:47:00
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 And if you sharpen both ends of a wooden pencil and apply high current to each side, it will start smoking, catch on fire, and the pencil lead will glow bright red.

So does this mean we should avoid pencils ? ;-)

 

I'm puzzled..., posted on October 18, 2009 at 18:08:05
Bry
Manufacturer

Posts: 5610
Location: S. Florida
Joined: July 21, 2005



I've got the circuit just about figured out aside from the values I can't see, but one thing doesn't seem right. The circled resistors are the input termination resistors and they look like Blue-Brown-Black-Brown or 6.1K- far from the standard 47K.

 

Yabbut, but MOST of those parts are capacitors....., posted on October 18, 2009 at 19:24:34
Marc Bratton
Audiophile

Posts: 4916
Joined: June 15, 2000
 You can never have too capacitance, it seems. Good, simple circuit with good, stiff power supply=good sound.

 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on October 18, 2009 at 19:33:32
AudioDoctor
 You seem to have really jumped into the Vinyl pool head first, although we both started with the same table, I am still on my first phono stage, and second cartridge. You have me beat.

 

yes it is..., posted on October 18, 2009 at 20:10:14
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10273
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
 it is the most complex phono they have done.
A Supercap PSU looks equally overdone also.

It is very different sounding from the Pass lab equipment. ( as you noticed )

Regarding a Phonocube, I only find it works well with the Miyabi/47. Any other cart I have used with, it's a sort of ho hum.
As it turned out that I can't use this phono in the main system as it's picking up too much RFI.
A Superline came in handy as it has a variable loading.

Speaking of another nothing inside phono but sounds pretty decent.

Linn Linto with switch mode power supply. Probably its failing is that not as ballsy as a conventional PSU arrangement.

 

But it is more complex than..., posted on October 18, 2009 at 20:22:34
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10273
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
 this.

As you said, make it as simple as possible, but not simpler. :)

 

Really nice work Abe!, posted on October 18, 2009 at 21:05:29
tubesforever
Manufacturer

Posts: 10505
Location: Great Basin
Joined: May 7, 2005
 I love those DIY projects with clean solder joints and twisted wire.

Cheers!

"Help support our school's Music programs"


 

that's funny too, posted on October 18, 2009 at 21:49:03
stark
Audiophile

Posts: 409
Joined: January 30, 2005
 If an electronics manufacturer tries to hide the parts they're using with a sharpie or by enclosing parts in a case, it makes them look rather insecure about their designs. Not everyone does that. Bryston doesn't. They publish their schematic diagrams on the web for anyone to see. They're not worried that somebody will duplicate their designs for a quarter of the price.

--stark

 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on October 18, 2009 at 22:26:12
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 But you started with a better phono stage and cartridge to begin with.

Except for the 640P phono stage, my Graham Slee and the PS Audio were purchased used which is the only way I will allow myself to swap gear as frequently as I have been known to do at times.

But ultimately it's about the music, and discovering vinyl is actually very new and exciting to me, and a bit foreign at the same time. I think it's called having fun again!

 

RE: had a Slee, now have a GCPH, posted on October 18, 2009 at 22:37:15
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Like you said, a lot rests on system synergy.

In my case, I get most of my "involvement" from the full-bodied EL34 based tube amps. In my view, everything upstream from my tube amps should be clean, transparent, and neutral w/o calling attention to itself. In this regard, "boring" might be exactly what I need but with excellent dynamics, transparency, and frequency extension with no coloration or "warmth". I'm not looking to the phono stage to create anything, just pass the signal as cleanly as possible.

I'm looking forward to trying the stock PS Audio GCPH. I've heard nothing but great things about the GCPH with Underwood (actually Cullen) mods but I want to hear the stock one first. Mine should be here mid week.

 

I am nowhere....., posted on October 18, 2009 at 22:42:01
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 2591
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004
 ....near your skill level in terms of DIY projects! Just following the herd.

Hope everything is well!


Abe


 

Great phono stage but ..., posted on October 19, 2009 at 07:21:52
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 being OpAmp based it does present a bias challenge to many.

:(


 

RE: if you want to really have fun.., posted on October 19, 2009 at 08:42:41
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 We shouldn't even avoid tantalum caps used in the proper fashion. I was just trying to add some levity. In fact, when the tant cap blew up in my preamp, I wired in another, this time in the correct orientation. Until that flaming moment, I was not aware that tant caps are polarized. Of course, I also had to spend a few tens of minutes removing the carbon deposited on the surrounding PCB surface and the parts thereon, in the vicinity of the explosion. It was kinda funny and relatively harmless, because it all happened on my workbench with the cover off the chassis. So it happened before my eyes.

 

Looks like 51000, posted on October 19, 2009 at 09:01:28
Slider
 It's easier to see in the bigger picture

 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on October 19, 2009 at 09:10:57
rebop
 I'm not so surprised. I have a Grado PH-1, and it is at least as simple inside and is also op-amp based. I love how it sounds though, especially with Grado carts. I've had more expensive phono pre-amps in my system that I didn't like as much.

 

I have this Preamp, posted on October 19, 2009 at 09:47:34
dsockel
Audiophile

Posts: 147
Location: SE
Joined: April 1, 2004
 I like this Preamp.

And while we're on the subject of price v. cost, should I jump over to the cable forum? ;)

 

Well .., posted on October 19, 2009 at 09:51:00
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 I'd say don't cheap out on the cable, you won't know how good it really is if you do!


 

Maybe that's not the input load resistor...., posted on October 19, 2009 at 10:58:37
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004

I've circled another that appears to be a 47k 1% resistor.



 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on October 19, 2009 at 10:58:55
shufumei


 
Yes, less is more, the less component signal has to go through, the less of possiblities of being messed up.
I don't have your phono preamp, but I have a Blue Circle BC27Pi, it's very simple with a great huge seperated power supply, it sound as good as it gets. Simple is the best, including life...

 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on October 19, 2009 at 11:13:38
AudioDoctor

I don't know if it is any better, just different.

And because this seems to be the place for it, here is a shot of the inside of the Bellari.

 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on October 19, 2009 at 11:22:46
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Is that stock or did you say it was modified? Nice!

 

From what I can tell, it has to be..., posted on October 19, 2009 at 11:22:47
Bry
Manufacturer

Posts: 5610
Location: S. Florida
Joined: July 21, 2005



The input circuit in the schematic that was posted matches the photo in all other respects. The input cap, the 1K, the 100pF, the 220K are all there. The only part that doesn't match up is the resistor to ground.

 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on October 19, 2009 at 11:26:05
AudioDoctor
 it has 2 "mods" It has a Sovtek 12AX7LPS tube, and a Radio Shack power supply to replace the wall wart. Those are the only mods I have done.

 

Abe, can we get one more close up?, posted on October 19, 2009 at 11:38:37
Bry
Manufacturer

Posts: 5610
Location: S. Florida
Joined: July 21, 2005
 And maybe a pic of the solder side? (pretty please)

 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on October 19, 2009 at 11:50:15
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 Well, I hardly think a opAmp based device is "less" in what I consider the traditional "simple circuit" interpretation of hi-end audio ... a peek at a full circuit diragram of a typical opAmp would be enought to dissuade that opinion; for that matter look up a picture of a Burson discrete opAmp.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm hardly opAmp shy, my Blue Circle BC22-II amplifier uses Power OpAmps, but my Blue Circle BC3000-II preamplifier is an example of "less" in the traditional sense.

:)


 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on October 19, 2009 at 11:57:00
AudioDoctor
 and I should add, it sounds incredible. I could not be happier with it.

 

RE: tantalum caps too, posted on October 19, 2009 at 13:50:03
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
 And the tantalums should be derated in high current draw apps. I've had them pop their lids even even while operating within voltage spec and properly oriented per polarity as a motor drive power supply bypass cap. It was on one of my companies production devices ( a former designers design I had to "fix") and the problem only went away when I replaced the tantalum with a ceramic.

 

RE: tantalum caps too, posted on October 19, 2009 at 14:01:15
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
 Actually ceramics of the NPO/COG dielectric type have been shown to be among the most linear caps available and sound fantastic in coupling apps. Of course since most folks don't dig into the subject enough to even realize the plethora of ceramic varieties that can be used in a "ceramic" the bad dielectrics have given the good ones an undeserved bad reputation. Don't get me wrong here since I agree that the bad and coincidentally most common ceramic dielectric types sound really awful.

It's is kind of entertaining to see how irrational bias can influence folks around here on things like capacitor types or opamps vs discrete type subjects.

 

RE: One thing you don't see in the Grahm, posted on October 19, 2009 at 16:16:04
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 There is not a commercial audio product in this world that could withstand this kind of scrutiny and come up looking like it is worth its retail price. In fact I daresay the discrepancy between the apparent cost of the parts and chassis and the retail price would appear to be far worse for megabuck products than for the Graham Slee. The maker is providing a service by putting it all together in a nice package and for designing the circuit. The buyer can take that or leave it.

By the way, isn't the Reflex supposed to sound significantly better than the Gold, or am I confused re their naming system, so that this IS the Reflex we are looking at. It would be fascinating to see the difference between those two products. Perhaps all they did was upgrade from the tant caps.

 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on October 19, 2009 at 16:59:48
fscerri
Audiophile

Posts: 177
Location: Queensland, Australia.
Joined: October 26, 2008



G'day all, I'm all for the simpler phono stage designs! My fave is my beloved Elliott Sound Products P06 DIY phono stage.

I never tire of its sound and I've heard nothing better! I've built versions wirth NE5532's, LM833's and OPA2134's and they all sound excellent! I'm happy. Regards, fscerri.

 

Ahhh.. it must be 61 or 62K, posted on October 19, 2009 at 17:15:58
Bry
Manufacturer

Posts: 5610
Location: S. Florida
Joined: July 21, 2005
 If you look at the schematic, there's resistance to ground, then there's 220K resistance to a DC offset (virual ground) on the other side of the input cap (possibly derived from the NULL pins of the AD817?). If the termination resistor is ~61K, this brings the effective impedance to a little under 48K.

 

A bit later when my other phono arrives..., posted on October 19, 2009 at 18:03:35
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 The Slee is playing music right now but when my other phono pre arrives, I'll take the Slee apart again and take better pics.

 

RE: One thing you don't see in the Grahm, posted on October 19, 2009 at 18:06:30
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Apparently there's a Reflex M that just came out which has significant design changes to accommodate a switch mode power supply. Even the "regular" Reflex is supposed to be better than the Era Gold in my pics but I'm not sure what improvements were made.

 

Is it skill? Or am I part of the disease?, posted on October 20, 2009 at 22:49:19
tubesforever
Manufacturer

Posts: 10505
Location: Great Basin
Joined: May 7, 2005
 Later this week I will post about building an super sexy modular high mass plinth.

I will be in a straight jacket from there on out! ;-) This has been an 8 month project and its still incomplete....

Cheers!

"Help support our school's Music programs"


 

RE: Is it skill? Or am I part of the disease?, posted on August 30, 2015 at 03:13:48
MEDiASAPiENS
Audiophile

Posts: 2
Joined: August 30, 2015
 Reflex Era Gold.
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah295/Lora_De_Allesio/GS%20Reflex%20Phono1_zpsxnn0ys9b.jpg
MEDiASAPiENS

 

RE: They confuse material value with sonic accomplishment. The Slee circuit is actually......................., posted on August 31, 2015 at 16:51:41
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 Active RIAA in a single gain stage using series feedback topology is the classic Lipshitz network. This is actually a very common topology due to the ease of implementation - Musical Fidelity implement this network (with a slight modification to include elements of Baxandall's solution) in their V-LPS, X-LPS, X-LPSv3.
The advantage is decent noise performance by having the gain in a single amp and the penalty in RIAA deviation is minimal (with the small error introduced by the non-inverting gain) plus a decent overload margin. Extraordinarily good performance can be squeezed out of said circuit using the NE5534 op amp. When used correctly, you don't need to go to the expense of using such high speed opamps as used in the Graham Slee. The quality of the signal path capacitors is the main determinant of the sound quality (assuming the designer has implemented the basic circuit correctly).
Polystyrene capacitors are my preferred choice rather than metal film polypropylene. However, given the cost of those, the SLee might even double in price!

Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on March 17, 2018 at 11:05:22
giorgos.papoutsakis@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1
Location: Deutschland (DEU)
Joined: March 17, 2018
 Hi, could someone who owns the reflex M post some photos of the PCB? I am interested to see whats changed! thanx!

 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on March 4, 2019 at 00:56:11
gm.m
Audiophile

Posts: 2
Joined: March 4, 2019



Graham Slee Reflex M

 

RE: Graham Slee. Less is more! I am shocked. - - pics, posted on March 4, 2019 at 00:56:58
gm.m
Audiophile

Posts: 2
Joined: March 4, 2019



Graham Slee Reflex M

 

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