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vpi 16.5 internal construction

98.164.73.225
Posted on August 13, 2013 at 10:15:58
wmp
Audiophile

Posts: 9
Joined: May 17, 2013



As I'm spending work time on this already might as well go all the way.

Here's a portion of an email I sent VPI. See the pix above.

VPI says it's normal. Looks strange to me. Any comments?

I opened my cleaner to install a longer hose - one that would allow draining in place to a container on the floor. While open I noticed the partition which divides the right and left halves of the box was not one piece but two. Is that normal?

Then, the larger piece, to which the fan motor mounts, was bending under pressure from the fan assembly, pushing it away from the plane it should occupy. It appears (I didn't actually measure) there isn't sufficient space between this partition and the vacuum chamber to accomodate the fan assembly. As you can see form the pix, the partition is displaced nearly half it's thickness and canted toward it's middle. The fan assembly is itself canted at the point it meets the vacuum chamber. This would appear to compromise the integrity of the motor support as well as the vacuum seal itself, if not now, then in the future.

Also, I didn't notice while the case was open, but it appears in the photo that the platter motor is torqued around on it's mounting plate.

I'd like to know if these conditions are by design, or reasonably expected in a month old device. It appears to be working as intended otherwise.


I also made the case for a longer hose being standard.
waynep

 

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RE: vpi 16.5 internal construction, posted on August 21, 2013 at 15:51:49
WntrMute2
Audiophile

Posts: 782
Location: Detroit
Joined: September 16, 2002
 So where are you in this? How about letting us know what has transpired?

 

RE: vpi 16.5 internal construction, posted on August 15, 2013 at 05:15:07
HW
Manufacturer

Posts: 515
Joined: March 16, 2002
 The machine looks perfectly normal to me. That bottom wall takes all the pressure of the gasket and vacuuming, it will not break.

If you are doing multiple cleanings per side (I know a lot of you guys are, sometimes six cleanings per side) you should polyurethane the wood parts a second time as you are taxing the machine beyond it's normal usage of one or two cleanings per side per record. The more you seal the longer the machine will last under this heavy usage. Remember, there is a reason we make the pro machines out of aluminum and steel!!

HW

 

RE: vpi 16.5 internal construction, posted on August 15, 2013 at 08:06:55
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 Dear Mr. Weisfeld,
May I assume from your comment that my HW17 has a stainless steel or aluminum tank? I always wondered about that, but I have never bothered to check. I don't know whether you would consider the HW17 one of your "pro machines", or not.

 

RE: vpi 16.5 internal construction, posted on August 15, 2013 at 12:36:20
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 My HW-17 has a metal tank. I bought mine 20-years ago brand new and it still looks and performs like new. I bought the HW-17 without the cooling fan, but the hole was drilled and the chrome grill was in place. I was rather surprised to find that, but I was also quite pleased. I bought a fan and installed it for a total cost of $13. The HW-17F with cooling fan cost $100 extra in 1993 when I bought my HW-17.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: vpi 16.5 internal construction, posted on August 15, 2013 at 17:07:10
markd51
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: Southern New Mexico
Joined: October 13, 2006
 And the mod for a cooling fan in any VPI 16-16.5 machine can cost less than $20, and a bit of ingenuity.

There's no need to hack the living daylights out of a brand new VPI 16.5 when you receive it.

I assume that the three little vents are still present at the bottom cover of the machine, correct?

Here's where a cooling fan can be installed in a matter of 20 minute's time.

Rat Shack carries them, you wire that fan into the AC supply. You Have that fan blowing OUT, not in. It will suck air from under the platter, go past both motors, and help keep both motors a whole lot cooler.

When wired into the incoming AC line, as soon as you plug the machine in, the fan fires up. When you take a break, get a Lemonade, that fan is still cooling down the motors. Until you unplug the machine.

I went further, and installed a cooling fan on the back of my 16.5.

But I'll tell you this.... I could do a marathon session for 3 week's straight, and I strongly doubt the machine would ever overheat, not even get warm, and those two motors would be humming along, doing the jobs they are supposed to do.

If you wanna see my mods, and full description of what I did, go to Osage Audio's website, and look under "RCM Museum".
Mark D

 

RE: vpi 16.5 internal construction, posted on August 15, 2013 at 05:45:54
markd51
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: Southern New Mexico
Joined: October 13, 2006
 I think it wise, for anyone that buys any of the VPI RCMs, that after a short while of useage, to then familiarize yourself with its innards, so you have a better understanding of the machine.

This will give you ideas of how to better maintain the machine, and as well, if you wish to perhaps perform any small mods to it.

Parts can often loosen due to dissimilar materials used, and heating and cooling cycles of the machine.

One week after purchase of my VPI 16.5 about 5 years ago, it got a visual, and a mechanical shakedown.

There were no issues found, but it was good to know all screws were tight, hose clamp at the recovery tank snug, wire connections, all properly tight, and connected.

In one pic, of the innards of a VPI RCM, you can see the corrosion of the Impeller Housing of the Ametek-Lamb Rotary Vacuum Motor. This is evidence of moisture intrusion, and leakage, and the sooner such issues are dealt with, the longer the Motor will last.

It is important to insure the sealing gasket between motor and tank is secure, and doing its job of sealing.

The other preventive measures is do get in a habit of periodically draining the tank while the machine is in use. It is better to open the clamp, and drain out small amounts of fluids more frequently than actually needed, than letting the machine go for a long time, and having considerable quantities of fluids in the recovery tank.

After a cleaning session, insure the tank is fully empty, and this can be further enhanced by tipping the machine slightly straight rearward while the drain hose is open.

After final draining, leave the Vacuum Wand Assembly off the machine, so the inside of the recovery tank can fully dry.

After 5 years of use, my 16.5 machine looks like the day I received it.
If you have some mechanical skills, some good common sense,the machine is very easy to maintain.
Mark

 

RE: vpi 16.5 internal construction, posted on August 14, 2013 at 11:58:58
Tom B.
Audiophile

Posts: 4355
Joined: October 5, 1999



LOL....sort of a before and after picture.....but it still works with a new motor I placed into the unit about 4 years.

Tom B.

 

RE: vpi 16.5 internal construction, posted on August 13, 2013 at 15:44:25
kavakidd
Audiophile

Posts: 20316
Location: Upstate NY
Joined: April 15, 2004



Here's a shot of the internals of my 16.5 that was originally a 16. The earlier ones were, apparently, quite different in some respects. It's over 30 years old.

Your photos appear to overlay one another and thus confuse me a bit

"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

 

RE: vpi 16.5 internal construction, posted on August 13, 2013 at 17:24:37
painter27
Audiophile

Posts: 5057
Location: wi.
Joined: January 7, 2003
 Wow, a portion of your pic. looks rather nasty.

?

 

It was ........... until, posted on August 13, 2013 at 17:49:47
kavakidd
Audiophile

Posts: 20316
Location: Upstate NY
Joined: April 15, 2004
 I coated it with waterproof sealer and replaced the bottom with Lexan.













"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

 

RE: It was ........... until, posted on August 13, 2013 at 18:46:04
painter27
Audiophile

Posts: 5057
Location: wi.
Joined: January 7, 2003
 Nice job.

Now why can't vpi seal (water proof) that area better?

Again, ?

 

2 important DIY mods, posted on August 13, 2013 at 20:08:12
Bones13
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama)
Joined: July 4, 2009
 I performed 2 important mods on my 16.5.

1) I found the spindle to get very hot after 6-8 records in a row (3 step process), hot enough to soften the vinyl hole once. After some reading, I mounted a fan on the bottom cover, blowing up on the turntable motor, and mounted a switch for it between the other two toggle switches.

2) I noticed deformation of the side due to fluids dripping off the record, and getting in the slot on the side. I ran a bead of clear silicone caulk all the way around the top plate where it meets the side. After a few weeks, the wood swelling went away.

I can now clean all the records I have the patience for, not just the 3 a day I could do without too much heat or fluid leakage.

 

Funny - I have never experienced a hot spindle, posted on August 13, 2013 at 23:00:57
kavakidd
Audiophile

Posts: 20316
Location: Upstate NY
Joined: April 15, 2004
 I finally realised why. Mine doesn't go all the way through but, instead, is press fitted to the platter itself. Loosened up a bit once - cured with a drop of super glue
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

 

RE: It was ........... until, posted on August 13, 2013 at 19:58:07
markd51
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: Southern New Mexico
Joined: October 13, 2006
 Not sure what you're referring to about the Platter, and torque>

But, I will say this. If you should note that the Impeller Face of the Rotary Vacuum Motor is not butted evenly, and flush-square to the side of the Stainless Steel Recovery Tank, then this is a problem, that will eventually ruin the machine over time, and will also not enable a positive seal of the Motor against the Recovery Tank.

You say this Vacuum Motor Mounting Board is somehow twisted, angled, or canted, or warped, correct?

Well, is should be perfectly square within the Case-Cabinet,

How it got this way, I cannot envision it getting this way all by itself, and I'm fairly sure it didn't leave the factory in this sort of shape.

Water leakage-intrusion within the machine will be the machine's worst enemy.

So, let me ask you this, as you have mentioned getting fancy with a means of draining the tank into another vessel, and if you think you might've been doing yourself a favor, by leaving the drain hose unclamped to drain into another vessel, it was this cause that caused that Mounting Board to warp, and I hate to say this, but because of this, you have more than likely just voided your warrantee on this machine.

If so, and this is correct, what I state above, then you didn't read the manual's instructions, or heeded any other VPI 16.5 user's advice-cautions that the drain hose must always be clamped totally shut when the unit is in operation.

The Vacuum system on this machine, is no different that a wet-dry shop vac, a carpet cleaning machine, where there's a recovery tank for dirty fluids to empty into, and these tanks must be sealed, and will virtually in all instances have an internal baffle.

The VPI's Recovery Tank does have an internal Baffle. it is hard to seem but it is in there, one might be able to see the partition in the tank from the top of the machine.

By leaving the drain hose open, you would then create another area where the vacuum motor will draw excessive air from, cause a leakage in the system, and this will cause fluids to in effect bypass the baffle, go over the baffle, and go straight into the face of the rotary vacuum motor. Which BTW is not waterproof.

Such intrusion will cause excessive corrosion to the vacuum motor, and can cause premature failure of the motor. And it could be a cause of water leakage around the sealing gasket between the motor face, and recovery tank.

This would be a most likely logical explanation for the board warpage.

If the machine has to be shipped back to VPI for examination, and possible repair-replacement, it is they who make the final determination on how, and what caused the issue.
Mark

 

Not sure your post was intended, posted on August 13, 2013 at 23:04:28
kavakidd
Audiophile

Posts: 20316
Location: Upstate NY
Joined: April 15, 2004
 for me?
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

 

RE: It was ........... until, posted on August 13, 2013 at 20:11:46
markd51
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: Southern New Mexico
Joined: October 13, 2006
 I'd just like to say again, that from your pics, I think it is almost impossible for any of us other members to determine if such warpage of the Motor Retaining Board is bad enough to be a problem issue?

I will mention the things you will need to check.

1, Are you seeing any evidence of water damage to any of the Boards?

2, is the face of the Rotary Vacuum Motor firmly butted-held up against the side of the Recovery Tank, that it appears that you have a tight seal of the Gasket?

If there is any sort of air gap, however small, this will of course compromise the efficiency of the vacuum draw at the vacuum wand, thus making your machine less effective to vacuum fluids off the record.

If I have been previously incorrect about you leaving the drain hose open, that there has been no evidence of water damage causing any board warpage, then it could indeed be that the machine is somehow defective, and is due to VPI's construction faults, and not yours.

Can they make mistakes? Sure they can, and if you feel that genuine flawed construction is a cause for concern, and you feel you have gotten a sub-par unit, then yes, do request VPI to ttake the unit back, inspect and either repair, or replace the cabinet.

If VPI determines it is a fault of theirs, they will make you whole.
Mark

 

RE: vpi 16.5 internal construction, posted on August 13, 2013 at 16:57:21
wmp
Audiophile

Posts: 9
Joined: May 17, 2013
 Sorry about the pix. It wouldn't let me select more than one, so I did a quick append, top to bottom. It is a rather confusing outcome.

Well, thank goodness for the actual tank and drain hose they have now. I rinse my records several times to be sure whatever junk remains is minimal. If it were just draining into the box, it would take more than a bit of vinyl coating to keep things from getting nasty in there.

I would have to craft a container for the liquid. But then I have a need to modify everything. Only cartridges and manufactured cables have remained untouched. So far.
waynep

 

It will let you post more than one, posted on August 13, 2013 at 17:48:22
kavakidd
Audiophile

Posts: 20316
Location: Upstate NY
Joined: April 15, 2004
 you just need to know how. Once you have selected one - hit preview - then you can go back to "Browse" and select another and on -- and -- on.

The original design had (has) a lerge sponge for the small amount of water to fall onto where, theoretically - it evaporates.
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

 

RE: It will let you post more than one, posted on August 14, 2013 at 09:12:13
wmp
Audiophile

Posts: 9
Joined: May 17, 2013






Thanks for the forum tip.

Since all record cleaning rituals are anecdotal, I'd rather go a bit overboard with successive rinses until the rinse is absolutely clear, with no foaming, as it enters the vacuum tube.

I can hardly believe how many years I poured goop on a Discwasher, which must have been filthy, and tortured my disks. Or gave them a rub down with GROOVE GLIDE or LAST.

AHA! You have to add the pix in reverse order as the new pic is added to the top.

On the other hand maybe all that junk applied in the 70's and 80's helped protect my disks from the above. And that's not the worst by far - some are completely encrusted in stuck on paper and cardboard - you can't tell they are lp jackets much less there are still records inside. Yet most clean up fine with a bit of care as you can see. The labels, though, often wander off in the process.

I wonder how many folks run their GARBAGE DISPOSAL while cleaning records?
waynep

 

RE: It will let you post more than one, posted on August 15, 2013 at 22:41:05
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 You can move the pictures anywhere in the post you want and put them in any order you want.



.
.

 

RE: vpi 16.5 internal construction, posted on August 13, 2013 at 10:54:05
WntrMute2
Audiophile

Posts: 782
Location: Detroit
Joined: September 16, 2002
 The two piece partition is normal. Once the bottom ( top while working on it ) is removed then the vacuum motor is free to slide out. That is by design. The platter motor mounts are rubber and are probably fine. As long as the platter turns fairly level and evenly as well as sounding as if it is crushing a sack of rocks I wouldn't get worried about that either.
Now the warped partition that has the fan and motor cocked is of concern. I would disassemble the thing by sliding the fan up and seeing what it would take to square things up and insure a good seal. It may take a small brace running across from partition to sidewall. I know you shouldn't have to do any of this but sometimes it is easier than shipping that thing back! I would get a confirmation about their warrantee so if there are problems in the future you will have information. Personally, I have found VPI to be exceedingly helpful in the warrantee department.

 

RE: vpi 16.5 internal construction, posted on August 13, 2013 at 16:42:17
wmp
Audiophile

Posts: 9
Joined: May 17, 2013
 Good idea. VPI says it's fine, but for the partition to be bent so much out of the way just doesn't seem right. Particle board can't be a good choice for maintaining elasticity over an extended period. A TIGHT fit is one thing, but bending the material severely might cause it to reform or crack over time. Especially, given the exposure to damp.

It's really a shame it's all particle board. Everyone says they last forever. I hope so.

A brace would be reasonable, though I hate to take it from the shelf to disassemble it again. I wanted the longer hose to reach a bottle on the floor so I WOULDN'T have to move the beast from it's perch.

I wonder, does anyone else pour clean water through the thing to rinse away the crud it must accumulate? I've been pouring a cup of warm water through each time I drain it.

Next is a proper valve for the hose. That clip is kinda kludgy. Keeps cost down, I suppose, and, after all, OVER 8 BILLION SERVED! One isn't supposed to argue with success I'm told.

waynep

 

RE: vpi 16.5 internal construction, posted on August 14, 2013 at 04:40:05
WntrMute2
Audiophile

Posts: 782
Location: Detroit
Joined: September 16, 2002
 I have posted the mods I did to mine. I doubt you need or want to do all this but I like to tinker so I tried a couple of things.

 

RE: vpi 16.5 internal construction, posted on August 15, 2013 at 05:10:15
HW
Manufacturer

Posts: 515
Joined: March 16, 2002
 Quite impressive set of mods!

HW

 

RE: vpi 16.5 internal construction, posted on August 15, 2013 at 07:10:31
WntrMute2
Audiophile

Posts: 782
Location: Detroit
Joined: September 16, 2002
 Thanks! That means a lot coming from you.

 

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