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I Want to hear the KLH-9

69.115.96.57
Posted on August 12, 2012 at 21:12:38
The Duke
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 Dear vintage enthusiasts,
I recently heard the original Quad ELS at the show in NYC this past May and completely stunned I was. Everything said about it is true. I'm glad I didn't die first, that's how good it was!

So,now, it's time to move on to, maybe, the next best vintage electrostatic: the KLH-9. Is there anyone in the metro NYC area who could please demo this vintage 'stat?

A real inquiry. Nothing nefarious intended. Just a life-long audiofile since the late 60's and an electrostatic owner myself (Acoustat 1+1) who would like to complete the circle and listen to a legend.

 

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Next, you need to hear, posted on August 13, 2012 at 06:44:57
E-Stat
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 the Dayton-Wright.

That was the one that most impressed me when I first heard them in 1976. More output and bass capability than either the Quad or the 9 in a true full range crossover-less design. The reviewer friend who owned them replaced double 9s.

 

RE: Next, you need to hear, posted on August 13, 2012 at 07:24:40
fstein
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 Listen to them fast before the nitrogen leaks out

 

Nitrogen?, posted on August 13, 2012 at 07:41:59
E-Stat
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 Actually, they use sulfur hexafluoride (SF6), a dielectric medium.

No worries if the outer diaphragm is torn. Mylar is easy to patch. I assisted the good Dr. Cooledge with a panel replacement back in the day. As a baritone for the Atlanta Symphony Chorus, he illustrated its heavier than air effect of it - which is exactly the opposite of N2.

It was like hearing Lurch at the Met. I found this on Youtube:

 

Infinity Reference sounded quite good too!, posted on August 13, 2012 at 08:00:50
Crazy Dave
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 Since we seem to be putting together a list.

Dave

 

The Ionovac tweeter was a slice as well.......nt, posted on August 13, 2012 at 09:42:30
viridian
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 nt

 

I used to buy it from welding supply shops for my XG8 series 3s. nt, posted on August 13, 2012 at 09:43:22
viridian
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 nt

 

Perhaps I misread the OPs point, posted on August 13, 2012 at 10:01:38
E-Stat
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 He is an electrostatic owner, recently heard the Quad electrostat and wants to hear the KLH9 stat.

The IRS is a hybrid ribbon/dynamic system. And yes, it sounded pretty nice even if coherency was not its forte.

 

RE: I Want to hear the KLH-9, posted on August 13, 2012 at 11:31:45
Brian Levy
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 No help here. I used to run 4 sets using Marantz 9s and later Audio Research D76a's and Dual-51s. Never heard anything better for my tastes.

Not to nitpick but there are no such speakers as KLH 9s. They are KLH Nines. KLH spelled out model numbers obn several speakers including the Twelve anf Five. Yes, as a kid, I was a bit over the top when it came to audio. Having a chain of audio stores did help in keeping costs down.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada

 

RE: Next, you need to hear, posted on August 13, 2012 at 11:34:04
Brian Levy
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 Are you thinking of ozone?
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada

 

RE: Perhaps I misread the OPs point, posted on August 13, 2012 at 13:45:11
Crazy Dave
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 The IRS sounded very coherent when I heard it, but you had to be back a distance. I would consider it a large room only speaker.

Dave

 

We'll agree to disagree, posted on August 13, 2012 at 15:46:10
E-Stat
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 I've yet to hear any multi-way ribbon/dynamic hybrids with a mix of dipolar and monopole drivers as coherent as single driver electrostats.

Wide band instruments like piano just don't come across as a single voice to these ears.

 

Perhaps you are unaware , posted on August 13, 2012 at 15:53:05
E-Stat
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 of the the Dayton-Wright design.

The panels were run at exceptionally high bias voltages (about 12 kV) and sealed using an electrically insulative gas, SF6.

Ozone production is a concern with plasma designs.

 

RE: Perhaps you are unaware , posted on August 13, 2012 at 16:01:36
Brian Levy
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 I'm aware the D-Ws were sealed and some gas was inserted. With e'stats, there is an ozone layer that builds up between the stator and screen. 1 reason why Art instructed letting his drivers sit for 24 hours to stabilize the layer.

Know zip about plasmas.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada

 

RE: We'll agree to disagree, posted on August 13, 2012 at 16:04:19
Brian Levy
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 I agree. Closest dynamic river system to it that I've heard are Lowthers. I think of the as a dynamic driver version of the QUAD ESL.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada

 

Well..., posted on August 13, 2012 at 16:10:43
E-Stat
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 I'm sure you're aware the Quad is actually a two and a half way design using two different sized panels. One set of bass panels is filtered for a slightly different response than the others.

 

Interesting, posted on August 13, 2012 at 16:16:45
E-Stat
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 Never heard that about ozone from either Jim Strickland or Roger West.

On a related note, how did you set up your double Nines? Mirror imaged each side with the tweeter panels together?

 

Ever hear the original Infinity Servo Static?, posted on August 13, 2012 at 18:27:43
Mr. Dick Hertz
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 They sounded pretty impressive to my young ears at the time.

 

Beveridge?...nt, posted on August 13, 2012 at 21:48:13
musiclistener
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 nt
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -HST

 

Missed my opportunity, posted on August 13, 2012 at 22:30:25
dogwan
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 Met a guy once in my area that had 2 pair of the "Nines". He came over to audition my Bottlehead 300b SET's (same scenario you are trying to set up, looking for hospitable host).

While he was over we fired up my Acoustat X's with modded Servo Drive amps. He may have just been gracious, but he thought that it would be a tough call which was a better speaker. He invited me over. Alas, I never got around to taking him up on that and I lost his contact info.

Sure was a fun evening showing off gear and talking audio one-on-one with another enthusiast.

-Dogwan

 

RE: I Want to hear the KLH-9, posted on August 14, 2012 at 08:03:19
Cameraman
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 I owned a pair once,and at a Magneplanar demo Jim Winey was asking the small group which speakers they owned. When he got to me he said young man what speakers do you own and I responded KLH NINES. He paused and said talking about that speaker is like talking about an old girlfriend with me.The speakers themselves were fast & very clean image height was amazing even untrained ears would make postive remarks. I recall playing Leroy Anderson Christmas music on Decca LP & people would jump at the realism of the whip.

PS, Winey was demoing the soon to come out latest incarnation of the Tympanis tops were powered by Carver Silver 7 & bottoms with a AR ss amp He was playing Medivial dance music & I was blown away

 

RE: We'll agree to disagree, posted on August 14, 2012 at 08:07:25
Cameraman
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 Completely agree at one time I was using subs,SMG's & a ribbon tweeter and for 5 minutes it sounded Great till I noticed what you mentioned

 

RE: Beveridge?...nt, posted on August 14, 2012 at 08:08:48
Cameraman
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 Best Imaging speakers in the world period even with all their limitations.

 

RE: We'll agree to disagree, posted on August 14, 2012 at 09:00:45
Crazy Dave
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 I would agree that it is not as coherent as QUADs (old or new). There is a tradeoff for everything. No speaker does (that I am aware of) does eveything perfect, although some, including new QUADs, come close. Unfortuneatly, I don't have the room.

Dave

 

And that is not a single driver stat -nt, posted on August 14, 2012 at 09:40:02
E-Stat
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 .

 

The QUAD ESL 57 is not a single driver also. (nt), posted on August 14, 2012 at 10:41:10
Crazy Dave
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RE: Did I Ever!, posted on August 14, 2012 at 11:00:58
Bold Eagle
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 I went to a small shop near the Yale campus to listen to the Dyna A25's. I brought with me a copy of Carmina Burana by the Philadelphia Orchestra. At that time, few knew of it, and the shop owner was blown away by the music. He put it on the top house system which was Servo-Static 1A's. Made the A25's sound like they were under a blanket. The bass from that 18" motional feedback woofer was like being hit in the chest on the big bass drum whacks.

I was a student at Rutgers when that particular LP was recorded by the Philadelphia and the Rutgers University chorus. The next night, they gave a live performance at Rutgers. I can still remember the power of the big bass drum in that performance. The LP captured it well, and played back by the Servo-Static 1A, all the bass power of the live performance was there. Sadly, the remastered CD just doesn't have the bass recorded at the right level, although a second remastering is much better than the first. Double Advents in a medium sized room do a fairly good job on the bass; but still not like the real thing - or the Servo-Static woofer.

Jerry

 

RE: We'll agree to disagree, posted on August 14, 2012 at 11:14:08
Bold Eagle
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 I agree. I had a biamped set of Infinity 2.5's using the matching Infinity electronic crossover. Infinity-Watkins 12" moving coil woofer, and EMIT's and EMIM's in dipole for the mids and highs. A sonic spectacular; but you could pick out the different drivers in the sound, even with a 325 Hz crossover to the woofer. It was particularly noticeable on solo vocals and instruments and small jazz groups; not nearly so much on a full orchestra.

Jerry

 

Actually, that's the one I was referring to, posted on August 14, 2012 at 11:16:17
E-Stat
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 There are two different sized panels in a 2 1/2 way design. The KLH Nine is a two-way.

I prefer the crossover-less types like D-Ws, Acoustats, Sound Lab, etc.

 

RE: Perhaps you are unaware , posted on August 14, 2012 at 11:24:35
Bold Eagle
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 SF6 is an insulator; but has another reason for its use. The molecule is very large with the fluorine atoms arranged around the sulfur like a six pointed star. It is also and electronegative molercule, with the six fluorines each able to accept one electron. Thus when an arc occurs in SF6, it is quickly snuffed out as the SF6 molecules each pick up 6 electrons, forming a giant negative ion and depleting the arc. The ion is attracted to the positive pole; but because of its size and shape, it's drift velocity is very low, and a significant current is not seen, so the arc quickly cools. SF6 is widely used in high voltage switches in electrical power distribution.

It's use in an electrostatic speaker is very clever.

Jerry

 

RE: Perhaps you are unaware , posted on August 14, 2012 at 11:29:48
E-Stat
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 ...forming a giant negative ion and depleting the arc.

Yes. Did you view the fun Youtube video I posted below?

If not, here's the link

I remember JWC "pouring" some in a coffee mug and asking me to put my finger in it. You could sense it's presence.

 

RE: We'll agree to disagree, posted on August 14, 2012 at 13:57:13
Crazy Dave
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 Hi Jerry,

Remember that I am taking about the IRS reference system that came out in 1980. We were an Infinity dealer when I worked in audio. Yes, on all the models that were for mere mortals you could hear the transition between the woofers and the EMIN/EMIMs. However, the IRS has 12 EMIMs per side which are crossed to the 6 per side, servo controlled, 12" line aray woofer at 70Hz (lowest setting is 64Hz). The woofer baffles are also sand-filled. The low crossover and the line array configuration of all the drivers is a game changer. It was very coherent. The experience was very different from any other product that Infinity made.

I have a lot of experience integrating subwoofer, in my own system and to Acoustats (which I also sold). Crossing low does the trick if the main speakers can handle it.

Note that the review in the link below claimed that the integration of the woofers and the EMINs "bordered on witchcraft".

I would be very interested in comments by anyone else that has heard it, but I don't think there are many of us. It was one of the best speakers ever made (IMO!). I never had a desire to own any of the Infinites that I sold because none could compare.

Dave

 

RE: We'll agree to disagree, posted on August 14, 2012 at 14:59:40
Bold Eagle
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 Dave,

As a matter of fact, I have heard the IRS. And it was back around 1980. A local high-end shop, now gone, had the set up in a too small room. It was driven by some high end Mark Levinson electronics, and from where I sat, I could hear the transformer on one of the amps humming. That helped to take the lustre off the presentation. but the sound in that system lacked integration, and it didn't image worth a damn. I blamed it on the room being too small and speakers being too close together; but set up was also a likely factor. At any rate, I came away unimpressed.

Come to think of it, I never heard anything in their two shops that impressed me, except a pair of Vandersteen 1C's out in front of the desk, and 2SE's in another room; both driven by a stack of NAD gear. Their set up of Dahlquist DQ10's sounded like a cat being tortured. Maybe that's why they are not around anymore???

Jerry

 

I Did Hear Them, posted on August 15, 2012 at 03:22:22
eleiko2@verizon.net
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 Heard them from an audio salesman (part of his home system) over 10 years ago. They are amazing speakers. They create the illusion, at least for me, of actually being on stage with the musicians. He played a recording of a Toscanini rehersal, and it felt as if I was right there. He drove them with an AR amp and preamp. He also had a Marantz 10-B tuner and Thorens 124 table. Great stuff!

 

RE: Well..., posted on August 15, 2012 at 05:19:30
Brian Levy
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 Yep. As was the KLH. But neither had any issues in transitioning from 1 panel to the other. Lowthers come as close to these as any speaker I've heard. The Jensen G-610 comes extremely close.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada

 

RE: I Want to hear the KLH-9, posted on August 15, 2012 at 05:40:59
Brian Levy
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 Once read an interview with the inventor of the Maggies. He said that the Nines he heard were what he wanted but w/o the need of electricity.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada

 

RE: Well..., posted on August 15, 2012 at 05:48:29
E-Stat
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 But neither had any issues in transitioning from 1 panel to the other.

The result was less consistent directivity. The top and the bottom radiated differently into the room.

While this is a preference, I also find true line sources more realistic in their image presentation.

 

RE: Interesting, posted on August 15, 2012 at 05:51:14
Brian Levy
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 I tried both lr and rr-ll configurations using the supplied brackets and heard no difference; a poosible result of placement and that thay are dipoles.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada

 

I thought the only piece of electronic gear AR ever made was a receiver, posted on August 15, 2012 at 07:12:59
1973shovel
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Perhaps I'm mistaken?

 

There was also an amp, posted on August 15, 2012 at 08:17:21
ToddM
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Really sleek-looking, but not everyone's cup of tea - also, there are some well-discussed issues with bias, etc., that have been addressed by hobbyists and AR devotees since they came on the market.

 

I have an integrated, posted on August 15, 2012 at 08:19:43
bcguitar
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 I think. I'll check when I go to the shop later.

 

RE: We'll agree to disagree, posted on August 15, 2012 at 08:40:48
Crazy Dave
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 Hi Jerry,

Room and setup are critical with a speaker like that. I heard them at an audio show around the same time (early 80's) in a very large room. They were driven by a strange Infinity hybrid tube/transistor amp (and the built in woofer amp). In that setup the image floated between the speaker in a vary realistic way. The only other speaker I have heard do this was a QUAD ESL 63, but the IRS Image was big. It was life size. I have never heard an image like that before or after.

Tying to get low base in most rooms just causes problems. Also most people set it up way too loud. It is an effect rather than reproduction. However, when it is done right, it can really add that spark of realism to the music.

I have been a big fan of Vandersteens since I first heard them in the 80's. They are also very room friendly and easy to drive. They are very well thought out speakers. They are much more idiot-proof that the other speakers mentioned!

Dave

 

I owned one from '72-'73, posted on August 15, 2012 at 09:00:08
E-Stat
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 It most certainly had bias issues. It was set waaay too cold resulting in Class B operation even at low levels. Resolution at low levels was thus very poor. Sounded fine when run wide open.

That was long before there was awareness of the underlying problem.

 

Which makes sense, considering the other products in their line , posted on August 15, 2012 at 10:08:41
ToddM
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 ... I would imagine that AR-3a owners weren't exactly looking for all the miracles of the first watt

 

Thanks, I didn't know that, posted on August 15, 2012 at 10:17:15
1973shovel
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 Nice looking amp.

 

RE: I Did Hear Them, posted on August 15, 2012 at 10:52:14
Crazy Dave
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 Did you mean Audio Research or Accoustic Research. I did not think Acooustic Research ever made aything to could drive the KLH.

Dave

 

Yup!....they were power hungry....., posted on August 15, 2012 at 11:05:22
kootenay
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 They sounded nice at that time, but, things have moved on. Would I buy them now, nope!...as there are other speakers out there that sound better such as the Martin Logan CLS ZII which is more fast and coherent sounding to me.....




If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)

 

RE: I Did Hear Them, posted on August 15, 2012 at 12:10:21
eleiko2@verizon.net
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 Audio Research. Tubes also, if I recall right.

 

True, but I was using the first of my Advents, posted on August 15, 2012 at 12:14:02
E-Stat
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 at the time which weren't terribly different.

 

Return to the fourth link, posted on August 15, 2012 at 12:48:44
E-Stat
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 of Harry's review which is actually page 399 of the magazine. Note what he says just prior to your quote:

"The woofer system is not without a sound of its own, to be sure"

Scroll down to the next paragraph:

"Still the quality of the bass is somewhat different from that of the rest of the speaker, a fact of listening life..."

I know exactly to what he refers because it was in Room 2 in Sea Cliff that I heard the IRS in 1980. First thing he played? Take on Me by Aha. Still have a couple pics of that room and system. He was using a Koetsu on a Goldmund table with the T-3 arm. Either C-J or Dennesen preamp driving a C-J Premier One. Lots of VPI Bricks around.

It is also in that room where I recently heard the Maggie 3.7 - which is notably more coherent that its predecessors including the 20.1s - a speaker I considered buying before getting the Sound Lab U-1s.

Harry has been an incredible mentor to me over the decades for both music and audio, but I've discovered he is less sensitive to coherency issues than I, especially at the bottom. Over the years, I've heard other big systems at Sea Cliff that share a similar trait like the Nola Grand Reference. The current Scaena 1.4s are better in that regard in that they are monopoles from top to bottom. Note what he says decades later about them as compared to the IRS here.

Sometimes, I've even convinced him to turn down the bass level as well. :)

 

The casework was really nice, too, posted on August 15, 2012 at 12:54:00
E-Stat
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 What you can't see is the top and side cover had a soft and pebbly finish to it that gave it a higher quality feel than Dyna's smooth sheet metal.

I really had no interest in the wood cabinet.

 

RE: "Audio Research", posted on August 15, 2012 at 13:38:43
1973shovel
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 Ahh.

Audio Research has always abbreviated their company as ARC (Audio Research Corporation) to avoid the confusion (and perhaps a lawsuit!).

Acoustic Research = AR

Thanks.

 

I do remember seeing the AR receiver, posted on August 15, 2012 at 13:44:13
1973shovel
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 In at least one audio store back in the early 1970's when you had your amp. The only other thing I remember about it was that it was out of my price range!

I wonder who they had design the damn thing? Odd that they'd bias it incorrectly, unless they cared more about the transistors lasting than sound quality.

I learned something today. AR made an amp too. Thanks!

 

RE: I do remember seeing the AR receiver, posted on August 16, 2012 at 07:42:03
Jim McShane
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 The designer was a guy from Chicago named Bob Grodinsky - he went on to found RG Research which was around for a while and made very highly regarded gear. He was a VERY smart guy.

The bias was not incorrect per se - it was a compromise that reflected the reality that the operating temps of the output transistors was heavily dependent on the bias current. A bit too much and it could run away, thermal stability was a major issue at the time. As well, the biasing setup for the outputs was problematic due to the use of pots to adjust the bias. Later models required resistor value changes and if you had an early model you were encouraged to remove the pots and update to the later bias circuit.

The AR had 2N3054 NPN transistors driving 2N3055 power transistors. At that time PNP transistors were not considered reliable nor consistent enough to use in the application, so the output stage used all NPNs with a transformer phase inverter ahead of it.

Remember, this amp was designed in the mid 60s - so to look back now and pass judgment using today's standards really is unfair to the unit. Many of the early transistor pieces suffered from the still relatively primitive power transistors that had to be used to get reasonable power. Who would build with a 2N3055 today??

It's easy to forget what the solid state "state-of-the-art" was in the '60s!

 

RE: "Audio Research", posted on August 16, 2012 at 07:48:16
Crazy Dave
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 You are right of course, but I have trouble imagining anybody driving KLH-9's with AR equipment.

No, I haven't head the combination, but I don't have to put anchovies in my ice cream to know I wouldn't like it.

Dave

 

RE: Return to the fourth link, posted on August 16, 2012 at 14:09:45
Crazy Dave
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 It may very well be that I am less sensitive to this type of problem below 100hz. I was very pleased with the sound of Accoustat 2+2s' crossed to a Veludyne UDL-15. I am also very happy with my Spendor BC-1's crossed to an M&K at around 50hz (no high pass on the Spendors). I am much more sensitive to midrange. Kef UniQ's and Klipsch/Atlas squawkers make my skin crawl!

I like the sound of Maggies but never enough to own them. I would have gone for the Sound Labs too.

I am sure the Nola's are nice, but I don't think the wife will go for them.

Dave

 

RE: Return to the fourth link, posted on August 17, 2012 at 08:21:06
E-Stat
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 It may very well be that I am less sensitive to this type of problem below 100hz.

Unless your x-over frequency is something like 40 hz and have an extremely steep low pass, I suspect you are getting goodly output above 100 hz. I used a pair of powered subs crossed over at 50 hz with my 2+2s for a while...



but had the opposite reaction. Try turning off the main amp and listen to the subs alone while playing music. If you've got a SPL meter and some test tones (I have both), measure the results. I think you might be surprised. The fundamentals of quite a few instruments (and voice) begin in that range.

If I had a fair amount of spare change lying around, there is a subwoofer that I think would truly provide a seamless match - dipolar Sound Lab UB-1s!

 

Thanks Jim, posted on August 18, 2012 at 06:48:41
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 4670
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2009
 That's some interesting information. I agree with you about early transistor technology (and sound!). It sure has come a long way since then.

 

RE: I Want to hear the KLH-9, posted on August 27, 2012 at 08:06:24
stat


 
Sorry but the 9's have past on to never never land and are all beyond their serviceable. life by now. I used to have double pairs and kept them alive by salvaging the janzen tweets from other speakers. I rebuilt the power supply once. . Tons of bees wax to melt. T the high voltage diodes in the PS are selenium! If you find a working pair, just wait because they WILL fail. I have had 4 pairs over the last decade. They were an incredible. speaker. don't pay more than a few hundred for a pair and if the seller doesn't. understand the reliability issues pass on them RIP

 

RE: I Want to hear the KLH-9, posted on September 4, 2012 at 10:47:08
Chinacave
Audiophile

Posts: 18
Location: New York
Joined: January 18, 2010
 So should I give up on re-building my power supplies? I have the 4 de-waxed, and am stalled on making the HV supply work - (not sure if the electrostatic voltmeter I have is working or accurate

-I have the "Rebuild your KLH Nine PS" article from Audio Amateur / Speaker Builder
-I have corresponded w/ David Janzen (son of the designer of the Nines), who has been VERY helpful
-I am comfortable (maybe prudently cautious is better..) with working with HV, having rebuilt many tube amps

I understand that once the bias voltages are restored, and the contacts cleaned, and perhaps the panels cleaned of dust, the speakers will play similar to, in not as new?

I'd MUCH appreciate hearing from folks who have re-built the PS units and otherwise restored these speakers. They were given to me, so putting some time and $$ into them is not an issue, and I look forward to hearing what all the excitement is about!

 

RE: I Want to hear the KLH-9, posted on September 17, 2012 at 16:03:28
milezone


 
No.

 

RE: I Want to hear the KLH-9, posted on September 21, 2012 at 05:52:11
Chinacave
Audiophile

Posts: 18
Location: New York
Joined: January 18, 2010
 No.(?)

Hopefully "No" to not re-building!

 

Go for it!, posted on September 22, 2012 at 14:54:08
ph5y


 
I heard these at an audio show in NYC in the 60s. They were incredible. At this same show there was a Live versus Recorded concert hosted by AR. They had a live classical guitarist and from time to time he would stop playing and a recording of him would take over, using AR3 speakers, McIntosh amps, and a top tape deck. I couldn't tell the difference, and my ears were young (about 13 years old!) AR was able to repeat this trick with a string quartet. Recording the group outdoors was essential so that the audience would not hear two different reverberation times when the tape played. I throw that in just for the sake of perspective. 1960s equipment that could pass for live music. Back to the Nines - if David Janzen is willing to give you advice surely he would know whether it can be done! The electrostatic panels used in the Nine probably match those used in Jans-Zen bookshelf speakers of the 60s and 70s as well as the Jans-Zen add-on tweeter array. Possiby other speakers used the panels as well. And Janzen brought out a full-range ELS a few years ago. Frankly I'm surprised they aren't still available. Anyway good luck! If you succeed you'll have the equivalent of a $50,000 speaker or better on today's inflated market. And if you fail you'll still learn a lot.

 

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