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Sources for powdered minerals_GC-303 formulation

76.100.161.27

Posted on March 9, 2011 at 03:29:47
dmzwizard@yahoo.com
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GC-303 is the formulation number given by Furutech for a compound they made in cooperation with 3M. I've contacted 3M and they know nothing about it. Furutech uses it in their A/C power distribution products to suck up RFI/EMI nasties. Prior searches here, have turned up, what is believed to be the mineral components of GC-303. I would like to see if I can't mix some up and I need some sources for the following minerals and I'm hoping you good folks can help. I need no more than 1kg. amounts of:
1) Pink Tourmaline
2) Green Tourmaline
3) Green Carborundum
4) Quartz
All of these need to be in powdered form and I would think around 400 grit or finer, say 600 grit. If anyone can assist please feel free to put in your 2 cents, as it were. Many thanks to all.

 

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I did this, posted on March 9, 2011 at 06:23:03
bartc
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Same idea. Got my minerals on eBay. Not overly expensive, but not easy to find and you have to figure out the matrix and the amount yourself.

For green carborundum I got some from a polishing compound company. Very fine powder. About $10/lb. if I recall plus shipping, maybe a bit more. On eBay, but not always posted, so you have to keep looking.

For quartz powder I just used fine true quartz sand, which is sold in pet stores as Repti-Sand at about $8/lb. Regular sand may not be quartz at all, so be sure.

For tourmaline I buy on eBay, and it's not cheap for any of it, particularly the pink or red variety. The only thing I could do was smash up some true tourmaline beads or crystals. Frankly, I just use them as smaller size crystals that I treat (read other posts here and on Iso for details).

The matrix I use for ease of working is regular acrylic medium you get at arts stores. You can even bake it onto something, which is what I do.

I've used this, also with some carbon fiber at times, in plugs and in my new power strip DIY.

Trouble is, amigo, that I have no patience for scientific A/B testing, so I also do many known value tweaks at once. That makes it impossible for me to discern which tweak is having the most or least impact. So I cannot tell you that this GC-303 clone works for sure, nor can I tell you that it works at all, nor can I vouch that it's the same or close enough to the real thing. On the other hand, it has done nothing deleterious to my sonics and everywhere I've used it as described above it has given a very good sonic impact.

I think I've discerned sonic improvement with untreated bag of green carborundum, but wouldn't swear to it. I KNOW I can always get really good sonic results with the pink and or green tourmaline, especially treated. This one is verified by experiments with Al Sekela (sadly just passed away) in his system too. This is with the crystals, not with powder. Quartz alone does have impact, as also verified with Al, but not sure of the degree. Using quartz crystals treated does for sure, but not as strong as the tourmalines.

Basically, you're playing with a range of silicate crystals that happen to be piezoelectric. For the best impact of the piezos I treat them but do NOT constrain them from vibrating, as is done by Furu in their rigid potted matrix for the GC-303.

So go ahead and try it. YMMV.

 

RE: I did this, posted on March 9, 2011 at 13:25:47
unclestu
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You can get crushed granite sand from cleaning supply houses . They use this for ashtrays in hotel lobbies. Granite has a very high percentage of quartz in its composition.

I believe the green carborundum is also used by Shakti, but it takes a very high current to really utilize its properties. Preamps and DACs won't trigger the beneficial properties, you have to have an amp hooked up to it. I believe that with the carborundum it is not so much the piezo quality but the magnetic property that we are dealing with, but I haven't fully investigated it.


Stu

 

bartc and stu_Thanks for the response and so sorry to hear of Al's passing, posted on March 10, 2011 at 03:39:11
dmzwizard@yahoo.com
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I am very sorry to hear of Al's passing. He and I had a few e-mails back and forth and he always came across, as a knowledgable, gentle soul, always ready to assist in whatever way he could. If I ever get to the point where I learn half as much as he knew, I will consider myself to have been blessed. I will miss him and his informative postings.
On to happier things, I e-mailed Scot Markwell at eliteAV in LA, Calif. (Furutech distributor) and asked him what he could tell me about the physical make up of GC-303. I'm pretty sure he won't tell me a thing and I can't blame him, afterall it did cost Furutech and 3M money to arrive at whatever formula they came up with and why give it away to me, but we'll see. I also suggested that Furutech should consider marketing the GC-303 compound/applique to hobbyists such as ourselves. Either way I've yet to hear back from him and will keep you posted. Thanks for the supplier info. I found the green carborundum at Lapmaster and have e-mailed them for a price on 1kg., no response yet. In regard to the other ingredients, Alibaba seems to be the great holder of all things mineral that the world has to offer. I however do not need metric tons of powdered anything and am going to e-mail them later today and see if I can't get pricing on "sample" sizes. Thanks for your input and assistance. I will keep you posted.

 

The formula so to speak is on the web, posted on March 10, 2011 at 06:27:10
bartc
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As I recall, but maybe it was Acoustic Revive. Hmmmm...

Whichever it was, they posted pix of the manufacture of that type of RFI absorption compound in their power strips.

Perhaps it wasn't Furu's GC-303 exactly, but came out about the same time and was detailed as: green carborundum, quartz powder and pink tourmaline powder.

Yes, Alibaba has a lot for manufacturers who buy in lots! That's because Asia seems to be both a source and a market for manufacturing of tech devices. You gotta stay closer to home (eBay) for small lots.

 

Pix and description, posted on March 10, 2011 at 18:32:58
bartc
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Here's what I was referring to. Go down the page to the part where they show you and tell you the composition of their passive filtering compound, which is the GC, lithia tourmaline and quartz powders in potting matrix.

 

RE: Pix and description, posted on March 11, 2011 at 03:51:17
benie
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Thanks for posting the link bartc, very interesting!

 

bartc and stu_Epoxy potting compound thought, posted on March 11, 2011 at 05:55:43
dmzwizard@yahoo.com
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I was thinking about using polyurethane resin as the base to which I would add the various minerals, but I'm thinking paraffin wax or bees wax might be better. It might restrain, if that's the right word, the minerals less than the polyurethane and I'm also thinking that the epoxy would do the same with regard to restrainig them. I think the epoxy also acts as a vibrational dampener, but would not the paraffin do the same and be more transparent with respect to the various electrical/magnetic "things" going on here? The wax also set's/cools faster than the week that Acoustic Revive say's it waits. Although heat would be an issue for the wax and not for the other two potting ideas. Your thoughts?

 

OK, posted on March 11, 2011 at 06:22:23
bartc
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First, I don't use the epoxy resin because it ain't cheap and it's kind of noxious to work with. That said, it's the common matrix in electronics, I believe, and it works fine.

I settled on acrylic resin/medium because I can buy it at any art store cheaply, I work with it in art, and it dries very quickly. It's flexible and can be cut (which I intended for my original applications). You can even bake it in at low oven temps! Before settling on that, I did some research on its dielectric activity using what Al Sekela taught me about dielectrics in such applications. The acrylic seemed to fit the bill well. So that's what I've used.

Wax and parrafin would both work, I think. But I'd avoid them because they're both flammable!

The other reason I'd avoid them is that I like the flexibility in the matrix that permits the piezo crystals to move about a bit.

According to Unclestu, the green carborundum is not used for piezo properties, so doesn't need to move about. So you could easily pot the GC in hard matrix and the quartz and tourmaline in something more flexible.

I don't believe you need the quartz or tourmaline in that form, though. I think the use of them as treated small bead size crystals is probably MORE effective, so pot the GC in the bottom and do the treated crystals for the other two minerals in a layer above that. That would be my advice and I see that it works in my applications.

 

bartc: Acoustic Revive uh...tutorial, posted on March 12, 2011 at 03:20:37
dmzwizard@yahoo.com
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bartc, Judging by the picts on their website, thanks for that, I had added it to my bookmarks previously but forgotten why, the green carborundum looks pretty chunky. What grit size would be adventageous to use, since you have been down this road before? I was originally going to make a slurry of all the various mineral components and kind of paint it on, but now I'm not sure that is the way to go. Thanks for the reminder about wax paraffin being flammable. The Vincent Price "House of Wax" movie had slipped my mind, its been more than a few years since it was last shown on TV.

 

I used fine grit. Here's a suggestion., posted on March 12, 2011 at 05:48:29
bartc
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About 400 or 600 powder for the GC. That works well, but use a mask, or you'll be breathing some in.

Try my experiment. Buy some acrylic paint medium (it's also called "nacre" sometimes, but usually available named medium) of any kind or price at an art or hobby store. make a slurry of this with a lot of the mineral you're using, just one mineral at a time. Let it dry for a few hours or days. If you want you can bake it in an oven, and I'll tell you how later. Just about a quarter to a half inch thick is enough. Do that separately for each of the mineral powders, as this way it's easier.

Then you can wrap the dried flexible material that results one mineral layer at a time (until you've tested each of the 3 alone and together) around a plug, or inside the bottom of a power strip. Test for sound. Let it settle in for a few days to be sure of what you do or don't hear.

This method is quick and easy and works, and let's you test the effect of each mineral and any combo you want. So you could buy the GC and the quartz sand right away and try them, while searching for a supply of pink or powdered pink tourmaline (not so easy, buckaroo!)

I found these worked around and inside plugs and inside the bottom of my power strip.

 

RE: Pix and description, posted on March 12, 2011 at 13:02:16
Finnegan
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Somebody's taken a picture of the actual Furutech stuff on the bottom of a power stirp enclosure.

 

RE: Pix and description, posted on March 12, 2011 at 13:09:44
bartc
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Now that makes a lot of sense to me. See my other posts on this matter.

 

bartc_Here is where I'm at with it, posted on March 13, 2011 at 05:34:59
dmzwizard@yahoo.com
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I bought 10 4" red tourmaline crystal strands at Michaels craft store, cutt them loose from the thread and have been "treating" them for about 48 hours now. I got the rosey-ish quartz (its not what I would call white) repti-sand from Petco yesterday. The green carborundum I'm going to order tomorrow from a place in Pennsylvania, the name of the place eludes me at the moment. I need to get an A/C outlet and am thinking about using the Maestro from Cruze First Audio, I've been wanting to try one for some time now and now I have an excuse. I am currently using two Pass & Seymour 8300 MRI A/C recepticles, one for the amps and one for the pre and cd player. I need to get another outdoor A/C box from Lowes and another brass coverplate and damp that, using Sounddamp. I was going to run another dedicated line and put the cd player on one of the existing dedicated 15 amp lines, and the pre-amp on the new (under construction, using the above) and see what happens. I will loose all the control factors if I do it this way though. I think you were the person that said that you do wholesale changes in your system, due to lack of time? I too am faced with the same constrictions.

 

Please remember a few things:, posted on March 13, 2011 at 07:58:32
bartc
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1) Stores sell "tourmaline" beads that may not actually be tourmaline, but glass or other minerals. Make sure you have real tourmaline.
2) I've already experimented with outlets and various damping materials, and boxes and plates, as well as with various crystals.

So when I say I don't have or make the time to check out each iteration of a set of tweaks separately, it's not exactly correct!

The upshot is: do what you think will work, period, and do it in a way that any element you think might not work well together with the others can be removed from the equation.

FWIW, I like P&S outlets on the cheap non-audiophile end. Al Sekela really liked the P&S MRI grade outlets. But I ended up with Oyaides and a couple of Furus, and so did Al mostly. That should tell you something. OUtlets can be swapped one by one as money allows, starting with the wall outward, IME.

I like cast metal (mostly aluminum, but DEFINITELY NOT FERROUS) boxes and cover plates. But you can use any non-ringing metal if you want the Farraday cage effect and you can use it with conductive carbon fiber too. You can use ceramic wall plates or wooden boxes and plates and they're also very good, but won't give you the Farraday cage, which Al used to think wasn't really necessary. IME, it's better to do the cage, however you implement it, but whether you ground it or not is a sonic issue for experimentation; sometimes better sometimes not.

Do star ground for your entire outlet/strip setup. PERIOD. Don't even question this.

IME 12 AWG or even 10 AWG stranded is better than smaller wires. Thicker is probably wasted and difficult to work with in many outlets and plugs.

Have fun. YMMV, of course.

 

P&S outlets, posted on March 14, 2011 at 05:21:51
dmzwizard@yahoo.com
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bartc,
I use the Pass and Seymour 8300 mri outlets (2) and have been quite happy with them but, I have not tried anything else, hence the Maestro purchase. I decided to use the 8300 mri's from a purely theoretical view, the attributes of which I'm sure you already know. I have heard a rumor, perhaps here, that P&S is or has discontinued them. I am going to call them later on today and find out. They were a little difficult to find the first time and I had to have them ordered locally. A few minutes on the web this morning indicates that the rumor may be true, though P&S still has them listed in their catalog. Grainger does not list them and one would think that a place like Grainger would have them at least listed, since they have all types of institutions as customers.

 

P&S MRI outlets, posted on March 14, 2011 at 14:34:47
dmzwizard@yahoo.com
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I talked with a woman today in customer service at Pass and Seymour, who told me that they are available in 5 different colors: Red, Black, White, Gray & Almond and at this point are not and show no signs of being discontinued. She also said that any distributor/parts house that carries Pass and Seymour can, if they don't stock them, can order them. That puts that rumor to death.

 

NO,NO,NO,NO,NO,NO,NO!!!!!!, posted on March 14, 2011 at 15:12:35
unclestu
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You do not understand the nature of the piezo effect we are dealing with here.

This is not a speaker cabinet( and even that conept is open top question in my mind)! You want the crystals to move freely and relatively unemcumbered. The whole concept is you want the crystals to absorb the EMI/RFI field and then to convert it to mechanical movement, where the energy is then dissipated as heat ( movement). If you dampen the crystals too much, the energy absorbed is simply retained by the crystal and it can not dissipate being restrained by your media.

If you want a nice looking application simply place the crystals into a small plastic container, like the ones sold in hobby and craft supply stores.


Stu

 

For crystals Unclestu and I agree, but, posted on March 14, 2011 at 20:52:46
bartc
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Not necessarily for the green carborundum and quartz powder. On that I'm not sure it operates the same way. But who knows?

That's why I "pot" the GC and sand in the flexible acrylic matrix, but use loose treated crystals above that for the tourmaline and other silicates.

 

They each need to be handled differently, posted on March 16, 2011 at 03:51:55
dmzwizard@yahoo.com
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bartc and unclestu: Simply put, crystals need to be allowed to do what they do and that's vibrate, any restriction and you lessen perhaps even nullify, their effect.
With regard to the green silicon carbide, unrestrained movement Not so important here but, the magnetic/electrical permeability of, in this case, the/a potting material to hold it in place seems to be the question, at least on my part.
Tourmaline, as used in these applications, need's to be handled taking both characteristics into account. Unimpeaded movement, because its a crystal and whatever container needs to allow for, as free a flow as possible, of negative ions. Someone in a previous post said, they are getting quite numerous now, that he put his in an emptied out of tea, tea bag.
This makes sense for the flow of negative ions, it being more permeable than a plastic box or plastic wrap, one would think but, what of the damping effect on the crystals, where they come in physical contact with whatever they use to make tea bags out of, paper or paper/cloth blend. That would quiet them down, so to speak, but perhaps the benefit from the permeability outweighs the reduction in vibration, and hence the generation of negative ion production, from the vibrations/heat of the crystals. I do have a question with regard to the tourmaline crystals themselves. What happens should a crystal or crystals come in contact with the + and - sides of an electrical outlets terminals. Will they carry or mingle the poles causing a short? and the two pockets of crystals need to be physically/ electrically isolated from each other iside say the outlet box? I don't know the answer and I'd prefer not finding out the hard way, my usual method.

 

Nothing worth doing that's not worth OVER-doing!, posted on March 16, 2011 at 06:30:10
bartc
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I think some of you guys are over-thinking the crystal thing a bit. The constraint on movement you might theorize in a plastic bag is of zip importance in my book. Some report that their crystals work fine in gooey type constraints (microsorb or blu-tak consistencies), so I don't think it matters quite as much as the teabag idea suggests. But some movement is necessary, IMHO, so full constraint (such as in potting) seems to me to be wrong. Never tested it that far so cannot say it without equivocation.

I don't think contact with wiring will do anything in terms of a short. Some tweakers have posted showing that they just put their crystals directly on printed circuitry and on chips. That would belie any issue there. (And mineral oil is NON-conductive, period.)

Of course, there are patents suggesting pyramid or other shaped "wave guides" that lead to crystals as RFI/EMI absorbers. So there's more to this if you want or are able to take things that far! I don't.

A simple bag 'o rocks will tell the tale.

 

In my , posted on March 16, 2011 at 13:30:17
unclestu
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thinking, dampening means the suppression of movement: Not desireable with the piezo effect. You want to encourage dissipation in order to convert eh absorbed energy away from the crystal but in a mechanical form.

Stu

 

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