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Can anyone explain how an improvement in a wallwart used in charging a cable can so greatly affect sound?

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Posted on November 6, 2009 at 06:24:33
Norm
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 I substituted the new Galileo MPC on my SR interconnects and got a sonic improvement that just floored me. How can this be? I can certainly understand how a dc charge on the shield of a cables works to reduce RFI and EMI effects on the signal in cables, but how can a better charger affect the sound?

We are not talking about a minor effect, such as raising cables off the floor or anti-resonance devices on cables.

Surgery completed, posted on November 10, 2009 at 06:13:52
reb
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Did some internal hard wiring, dampening of electrolytic capacitor and transformer. Bypassed electrolytic with polystyrene film and foil RTX.

Result, there is an audible difference. A bit less grain/noise and slightly deeper bass.

Cheers......

This supply feeds a voltage amplifier, correct?, posted on November 10, 2009 at 15:21:40
Al Sekela
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 The SR website calls the technique "zero capacitance shielding." This implies the shields are driven with a replica of the signal through buffer amps, and the DC from the power supply is used to run the buffer amps and not to bias the cable insulation.

The buffer amps should have some power supply noise rejection, but the various discussions around improvements in performance from power supply upgrades, and your results, suggest the rejection is inadequate for the application.

RE: Surgery completed, posted on November 10, 2009 at 14:06:01
solda
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 Would you say it was worth your time?

RE: Surgery completed, posted on November 10, 2009 at 15:50:33
reb
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 I suppose it was for the gain in "purity" and apparent increase in resolution.

But if your after fine "tuning" the sound to your taste, altering the voltage applied to the shield has a more drastic effect.

That experiment I did years ago and the results I should have written down but unfortunately didn't.
now borrow a galileo from the cable co or your dealer and compare them, posted on November 10, 2009 at 13:25:58
Enchantment1.6s
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RE: With all due respect, I'm not that big a SR fan., posted on November 10, 2009 at 16:07:52
reb
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 Yes, I do use one of their older speaker cables.

But have been really put off by past SR interconnects and power cords and the relentless marketing PR.

My own DIY interconnect/cord efforts have always (prior to Tesla at least) surpassed the SR's.


So, I have no interest in trying anything from SR. I just know too much about the BS/hype and overpriced nature of high-end wire vendors to be bothered.
RE: Can anyone explain how an improvement in a wallwart used in charging a cable can so greatly affect sound?, posted on November 9, 2009 at 21:31:30
bassbinotoko
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 I'd expect a badly shielded or regulated wallwart to do far more harm than good. Injecting line noise and transients or AC hum is not normally desirable in an audio cable.

Images of X2 MPC, posted on November 8, 2009 at 07:29:56
reb
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I will point to point wire this one and "upgrade" passive parts, then compare to a stock MPC. $400 for the tweaked out MPC is ridiculous.

You are ignoring the "Quantum Tunneling.", posted on November 8, 2009 at 18:00:47
Norm
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 Something has to be responsible for the substantial improvement.

Tweaking the MPC, posted on November 8, 2009 at 17:00:42
kenster
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 The MPC definately responds to tweaking.

I applied a small 10mm x 25mm strip of fo.Q damping material to the transformer core and a small pad of the same material on the end of the cap along with a Yammie vibration transducer to the outside casing and this resulted in a substantial improvement in bass definition, image solidity and high frequency purity.

The MPC I tweaked feeds the shielding on a SR REL SPEC Resolution Reference cable that connects between an MC275 amp and a REL Strata lll
amp/x-over interface. The MPC is also being fed balanced power but all the above has resulted in an improvement along the lines of replacing the stock REL cable with the SR RR cable which is substantial to say the least!

I'm definately going to buy a Galileo MPC to compare to the tweaked MPC and if anybody can tell me how to post multiple pics in one post, I will post pics of the tweaks I have done.

Cheers,

~kenster
RE: Images of X2 MPC, posted on November 8, 2009 at 16:45:13
Mike B.
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 Looks pretty simple. Rectifier diodes and one filter cap.

RE: 2nd image, posted on November 8, 2009 at 07:31:30
reb
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circuit board

Is this 2nd image from the Galileo? I was told there was only point to point wiring., posted on November 8, 2009 at 17:58:40
Norm
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RE: Can anyone explain how an improvement in a wallwart used in charging a cable can so greatly affect sound?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 15:04:29
Mercman
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 I heard the Enigma up at Symergistic Research and it made a big difference in the sound of the cables. I'll probably get a few Galileos for my system.

I heard the Enigma and the two rectifiers did sound different., posted on November 8, 2009 at 06:56:48
Norm
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 I have not heard it versus the Quatro or Galileo MPCs. Have you?

RE: I heard the Enigma and the two rectifiers did sound different., posted on November 8, 2009 at 10:33:42
Mercman
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 Ted says the Galileo MPCs are similar sounding to the Enigma. I have a Quatro. I only heard the Enigma once at SR.

All that was really in focus the time I heard the Enigma was the different sound of the two rectifiers. nt, posted on November 8, 2009 at 18:02:24
Norm
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RE: Can anyone explain how an improvement in a wallwart used in charging a cable can so greatly affect sound?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 22:16:15
fmak
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 Most chargers are very noisy electrically. They inject 50 and 100 Hz into the system. A switching one will inject the switching frequency and its harmonics as well.

RE: Can anyone explain how an improvement in a wallwart used in charging a cable can so greatly affect sound?, posted on November 6, 2009 at 16:12:50
reb
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 I've experimented with varying the voltage of the shield transformer. Changing the voltage has an audible effect. Check to see if your newly acquired transformer is of a different voltage.

It was the same transformer. nt, posted on November 6, 2009 at 16:31:26
Norm
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 a

RE: Then send em back and modify the originals yourself., posted on November 7, 2009 at 06:43:48
reb
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 Open up the SR and make the same internal changes.

And make a Tesla coil? nt, posted on November 7, 2009 at 14:44:22
Norm
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 a

RE: And make a Tesla coil? nt, posted on November 8, 2009 at 07:35:15
reb
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 I don't buy into the "tesla Quantum tunnel" marketing, so for me that is an area I will not explore.


As previously mentioned, you can change the sound by varying the voltage. I'd play around with that first If I were you before spending $400.00.

RE: Can anyone explain how an improvement in a wallwart used in charging a cable can so greatly affect sound?, posted on November 6, 2009 at 14:51:30
kenster
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Location: New Mexico
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 I found a significant improvement when I powered my SR MPC's with an AC regenerator vs. straight from the wall and a small yet significant improvement when they are powered by HC balanced power which I currently use.

I have thought about buying a used PS Audio PP300 just to power all my MPC's in the main rig as the AC regenerator is powering my CD player at
the moment. I'll have to look into the Galileo...

Maybe the noise issue is why AQ chose to use batteries on their DBS cables, or it could be convenience or performance as I'll admit, in a full blown SR cable lash up, that is a shitload of MPC's with all their connecting cables which can look like a snake pit behind/around a rack without very careful routing and/or dressing.


~

A snake pit is the right word., posted on November 6, 2009 at 16:34:16
Norm
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 I don't blame SR given what goes into making the Galileos, but they cost $400@!!!

The various possible noise sources and pathways..., posted on November 6, 2009 at 11:07:49
Al Sekela
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 The wallwart's AC plug blades may be making poor contact with the outlet.

The wallwart itself may be making electrical noise and polluting the AC for the other components.

The wallwart's DC output may be contaminated with it own AC noise.

The wallwart may be transferring existing AC noise to the cable shields.

The DC cable from the wallwart may be acting as a resonator and/or antenna.

All of the above.

The Galileos are just redone original MPCs, so most, if not all, hypotheses are unsupported., posted on November 6, 2009 at 16:38:30
Norm
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 They do Quantum Tunneling, point to point wiring, and better parts.

I am just amazed a the improvement and cannot understand how it can be.

Quantum Tunneling: humbug alert!, posted on November 7, 2009 at 18:41:21
Al Sekela
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 Proper solder joints will minimize the mixing properties of what were bad contacts, where RF noise mixes with artifacts of the audio signal. Better parts always help.

"Quantum tunneling" is how electrons get through potential barriers such as are created by bad contacts. It is just a property of how electrons behave in the constructed world. This particular use of the phrase is likely marketing-speak for some proprietary process that adds value, and not just BS. However, it makes me less inclined to respect the designer.

RE: Quantum Tunneling: humbug alert!, posted on November 8, 2009 at 17:17:35
kenster
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 I agree that the term QT can be to some people a little off putting but having been to the SR factory and witnessed the actual process and hearing for myself the before and after results, it does change the sonics of whatever component/part is treated for the better and NOT in a subtle manner.

Could Ted have come up with a more direct term for QT? Sure but that would be out of his character. Ted is a charasmatic person being both an inventor and a salesman and I'm sure he could care less what others think of the terms he chooses to use. The results speak for themselves.

Cheers

What is ironic is Tesla, the inventor, did not accept the Quantum Theory., posted on November 8, 2009 at 19:09:02
Al Sekela
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 It takes more than a few million electron-volts to smash atoms.

I don't doubt the SR Tesla coil treatment changes the performance of conductors. I just feel the need to take a shower after reading the stuff on the SR website.

That's it!!, posted on November 9, 2009 at 12:04:03
alan m. kafton
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 Quantum Showering....probably a better and more logical term for the process. But Ted would be mocked even more.

Agreed! nt, posted on November 8, 2009 at 18:05:51
Norm
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RE: Can anyone explain how an improvement in a wallwart used in charging a cable can so greatly affect sound?, posted on November 6, 2009 at 09:47:02
Mike B.
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 Less switching noise and better filtering. Evidently that noise can be transmitted from the shield to the conductors? This could be a good warning for others using wall wort power supplies

Switching noise with a wall wart? nt, posted on November 6, 2009 at 19:51:02
Norm
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 a

RE: Switching noise with a wall wart?, posted on November 6, 2009 at 21:03:47
Mike B.
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  Since: September 1, 1999
 There will be a rectifier setup that converts AC to DC. Probably cheap diodes or a bridge that have a lot of noise. A good quiet power supply might have high quality diodes, filtering, one or more regulators that help absorb noise. If you want to discuss active shields contact Damien Martin. He holds the patent. He shows up at DIYaudio as audio1

They do replace parts. I guess I should say I "knew" Damien years ago. nt, posted on November 7, 2009 at 14:47:51
Norm
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RE: They do replace parts. I guess I should say I "knew" Damien years ago. nt, posted on November 7, 2009 at 18:32:23
Mike B.
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 I figured that since you have attended many shows you probably had crossed paths. He develops products and freelances for a variety of companies.

RE: Switching noise with a wall wart?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 07:02:28
crossram2x4@aol.com
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 "If you want to discuss active shields contact Damien Martin. He holds the patent. He shows up at DIYaudio as audio1"

I can't seem to find this. Can you help steer me to Damien's posts (a link maybe)?


Thanks.
RE: Switching noise with a wall wart?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 07:55:53
Mike B.
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 I have linked to a page of a thread at DIYaudio with a post from him. You can use the internal PM system to make contact. This particular thread discusses low noise power supplies starting several pages ahead of what I have linked. John Curl is known for very quiet circuit design.

Perhaps the former wallwart was polluting your AC? (nt), posted on November 6, 2009 at 07:38:11
pburant
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 .

Yes, that is a plausible hypothesis, if a little transformer, diodes, etc. can have that much impact. nt, posted on November 6, 2009 at 07:53:19
Norm
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Hey, let's start a thread about how small things can be and still have an impact! nt, posted on November 6, 2009 at 08:03:13
geoffkait
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 nt

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