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Reeeeeel To Reeeeeel

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Posted on August 28, 2009 at 16:19:36
AudioSoul
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Posts: 1492
Location: north central AZ
Joined: July 9, 2005
Contributor
  Since: September 24, 2009
Can someone give me some recs of RR recorders that are conciderd good.
Some names and model #'s please. It does not have to be top of the line.
I just want something good quality that I can learn about recording with
Thanks, David

RE: Reeeeeel To Reeeeeel, posted on October 29, 2009 at 22:44:06
jldlmurray
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: PNW
Joined: November 11, 2008
 Go into your local thrift or pawn store and you can probably find a Sony, Akai or Teac at a steal.

RE: Reeeeeel To Reeeeeel, posted on October 10, 2009 at 13:28:34
dynacopas
Audiophile

Posts: 45
Location: Central AL
Joined: September 26, 2009
 Oh if you or anyone else want to go hog wild they are making Original Master Reel to reels as we speak. And there high priced reel to reel I beleive once was a tascam or an otari as mentioned. Take a look at that link.
Allen 75's,Eico HF60's Dyanco PAS3x, Orcale Delphi Mark 2, RCA MI-9358A, MI-9257C
RE: Reeeeeel To Reeeeeel, posted on October 10, 2009 at 13:13:09
dynacopas
Audiophile

Posts: 45
Location: Central AL
Joined: September 26, 2009
 Hi now that the pissing match is over I can try to explain things. Fisrt of all the Tanberg reel to reel decks are the way to go. A model 64 (a tube deck) is a good choice. The TD20 that is mentioned is also very good but I beleive they are logic controlled. Not a bad thing as long as tehy are running right but will be very pricey to fix and there is only one place in the USA that fixes them. (prob around 800 to restore and repair them) The tandberg 64, 3500 etc are all nice and sound great. Then there is dolph who from past experience was a recording engineer for 20+ years in europe. He may know really high end and out of most price range audiophiles gear and thats fine. The Otari 5050 that the tape master is selling is IN NO WAY anywhere near the stock deck that can be found on ebay. Look at the huge price tag on it. that deck couldn't be classified as a Otart 5050 in anyway except for the outer shell and appearence. Is the Otari 5050 yes does it sound as good as the Tandbergs IMO NO. Hope this helps maybe I have helped sort thru the confusion. Another deck that was failed to be mentioned but is very close to the tandbergs in sound quality is the Sansui SD5500. the advantage of the reel to reel over the cassette is the size of tape. The cassette is much smaller thus lacks the dynamic range of the reel to reel. There are exceptions like the high dollar Nakamichi, Revox and the less popular but equally as good JVC DD-9. But again high end decks that still command BIG DOLLARS. For an entry level reel to reel. Look no further then a Tandberg Model 64 or 64x if you can find one. It was the deck many musicians still have today as there personl decks and sounds awesome. Again my opinion and not trying to start another war.
Allen 75's,Eico HF60's Dyanco PAS3x, Orcale Delphi Mark 2, RCA MI-9358A, MI-9257C
RE: Reeeeeel To Reeeeeel, posted on September 16, 2009 at 16:19:08
Tandberg TD20A man
 Wow! What a conflict of interests!
I myself have used several different r2r machines and cassette decks and have found that both systems have distinct advantages and disadvantages.
I favour out of the cassette decks the sony TC K661s. In my opinion an incredible machine, having self calibration for bias which works brilliantly giving superb results even with ordinary ferrite tapes. The dolby 'S' system gives it the edge over any system using dolby C. The only cassette deck to rival the sony was an aiwa but that went to the scrap heap because of the pinch wheel bearing wearing out and impossible to sourse a new one. Sony deck still going strong after 15 years hard use. Obviously a lot favour the Nak decks on here but I have never used or even seen one so I cannot comment on them but I would bet my house that there wouldn't be a lot of difference quality wise between a Nak and the sony model I have stated.
Reel to reel vary quite considerably and for sound quality I have found that there really isn't any competition for the Tandberg TD 20 A to the Revox B77 mk11.... Tandberg wins outright. But for sourcing parts and sevicing the Revox wins handsdown and both are expencive!

David I think that you would be best of starting with something like the Akai 4000 series or Tandberg 1500 series excellent machines to get you in the mood for serious things to follow if you fancy using reel to reel or any sony 3 head cassette deck I'm sure you won't be dissapinted whichever direction you wish to take.

Chris.

RE: Reeeeeel To Reeeeeel, posted on September 16, 2009 at 18:58:34
RedGrant
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Nebraska
Joined: April 28, 2009
 "I myself have used several different r2r machines and cassette decks and have found that both systems have distinct advantages and disadvantages." - Tandberg 20A man


What would you consider to be relative advantages and disadvantages of r2r and cassette decks?



"I favour out of the cassette decks the sony TC K661s. In my opinion an incredible machine, having self calibration for bias which works brilliantly giving superb results even with ordinary ferrite tapes." - Tandberg 20A man

A few Sony cassette decks I've heard over the years sound Okay, not too bad considering the price, but how would you rate them against Tandberg cassette decks?



" The dolby 'S' system gives it the edge over any system using dolby C." - Tandberg 20A man


I don't use NR. I've never heard NR that sounded equal or better to without NR.


"Obviously a lot favour the Nak decks on here but I have never used or even seen one so I cannot comment on them but I would bet my house that there wouldn't be a lot of difference quality wise between a Nak and the sony model I have stated." - Tandberg 20A man

I have heard quite a number of Naks, and I'm not impressed.




" ...any sony 3 head cassette deck I'm sure you won't be dissapinted whichever direction you wish to take." - Tandberg 20A man


I prefer the sound of Tandberg cassette decks over Sony.
RE: Reeeeeel To Reeeeeel, posted on September 9, 2009 at 12:46:46
Inmate51
Audiophile

Posts: 1219
Joined: July 6, 2005
 It's a good thing this thread is "peter"-ing out... I'm almost out of popcorn. lol

Redgranite, it's hard to know what you mean by a good quality deck. But even if you can score an older Akai, Pioneer, Sony, Tandberg, Technics, or whatever for $200 - $300, you'll be much better off with a good-condition Otari if you can get one for a few hundred bux more ($500 - $700). So it really comes down to your available funds and whether or not you're willing to buy low now and upgrade (re-buy) later.

Clearly, there are upper echelon machines which will outperform an Otari either sonically or wrt tape handling or whatever. Studer, Lyrec, Stellavox, and others have been mentioned. They are all top tier machines. But if I read your original post correctly, you're looking for a "good" deck that you can use to learn about recording. Otari is certainly an excellent candidate, as are the Teac/Tascam decks. As I said, it really comes down to your available funds; and, your definition of "good".
Best by far is..., posted on August 29, 2009 at 16:32:49
joeljoel1947
Audiophile

Posts: 920
Location: MICHIGAN
Joined: October 16, 2004
 To answer the question more directly----For a beginner or a pro it is an Otari MX-5050 model; any of them. As you learn, it can progress with you and you can take it to the next level with mods on your own or as MikeL suggests from the Tape Project folks.

Try and find any of the decks the others may mention, that do all this, and for under $500 used for a VERY nice example:

*IEC and NAB EQ curves
*3 3/4, 7 1/2 and 15 ips playback speeds
*2 and 4 track playback both
*ability to handle reel sizes from 5" to 10.5"
*availibility of parts; and cheaply
*outstanding sound quality, even stock
*gentle tape handling and smooth, reliable transport action
*excellent "logic" controls
*add-on remote capabilities
*several EQ settings for each tape speed
*very easy to service inside with an open layout and interchangeable parts between the various 5050 units for the most part
*pro machine---made to be a "workhorse"---used in studios and radio stations
*excellent record qualities in 2-track mode

I think that about sums it up!!! May have missed an item or two.....

Regards,
Joel
RE: Best by far is..., posted on August 30, 2009 at 17:22:51
niklasthedolphin
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Joined: April 1, 2007
 Otari was some of the cheap entry level ways to get into pro sound engineering back then.
They did improve the concept a bit over the years.
However, there are quite a few pro machines out there with better sound, better recordings, different or more features etc.

But for someone who wants to start up R2R recording/playing, Otari is a great solution.
Half track is the way to go.
If you find yourself into eBay 1/4 track tapes, then Otari is way overkill anyway.

"dolph"

RE: Best by far is..., posted on August 30, 2009 at 18:08:36
joeljoel1947
Audiophile

Posts: 920
Location: MICHIGAN
Joined: October 16, 2004
 "However, there are quite a few pro machines out there with better sound, better recordings, different or more features etc."

If you can name 3 reel to reel models under $500 USD currently for a mint and running machine that matches every feature/benefit a MX-5050 can do then I'm all ears. It is not possible, however. Even at 3k currently USED, you will have a struggle to name just 3 (probably struggle to name 1 because I cannot!!).

An email friend of mine is Ki Choi (who owns tons of Studers, Otari's, Technics, late-model Sony's, etc...) and based on our emails offline, even he cannot tell you a Studer (any of them) is a slam dunk (or even significant improvement) over a MX-5050 sound-quality wise, especially a B3 or a modded B2 with external electronics. So, as they say, YMMV.

"Cheap entry level" is FAR FROM what a MX-5050 model is. They can be bought brand new right now (B3), and the latest price was $6200. Maybe you are thinking of the first Otari's ever made in the 70's; but that is far from where they ended up, as you alude to.

"If you find yourself into eBay 1/4 track tapes, then Otari is way overkill anyway."

Why??? Are you stating 1/4 track commercial tapes are not good enough for an Otari or any other deck to even "bother with???". That's crazy talk. There are a ton of 1/4 track commercial tapes that beat the SNOT out of any other commercial releases available---lp, sacd, cd etc. So why would 1/4 track not matter??? If you want to hear the BEST POSSIBLE EVER releases of commercial albums such as say Miles Davis, "KOB", "Sketches of Spain", or "Miles Smiles" then you will NEED a 1/4 track machine to play them with!!!!

Regards,
Joel
RE: Best by far is..., posted on August 31, 2009 at 05:57:07
niklasthedolphin
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Joined: April 1, 2007
 What a hostile posting.

What does YMMV mean?

I guess you just have something to discover and learn about the open reel market.

I will leave the struggle to you.

The Otari is still cheap to come by.

I never mentioned any price anywhere.
I have a few machines better than Otari.
Some of these were less than $500.
I never claimed any slam dunk.

1/4 track is not the same quality as 1/2 track.

I have the best possible recordings in my own possession.
They are not just 1/4 track.

I suggest you calm down and research the market over a longer period and have some listening to better R2R machines..............through better surrounding gear.

"dolph"

Good stuff!, posted on September 3, 2009 at 20:25:53
joeljoel1947
Audiophile

Posts: 920
Location: MICHIGAN
Joined: October 16, 2004
 I was not hostile. Just pointing out your misconceptions and idiotic comments. "I will leave the struggle to you" on that. And I suggest you brush up on your English as well.

"1/4 track is not the same quality as 1/2 track."

Never said it was. I simply said that if you want the BEST POSSIBLE RECORDINGS of certain albums, they will be on 1/4 track, not half-track. Why? Because they do not exist on half track unless you own the master tapes!

"I have the best possible recordings in my own possession."

So you have the master tapes of all the Miles Davis tapes? And I suppose you have the Beatles master tapes on 1/2 track too? What good are the "best possible recordings" if nobody other then yourself wants to listen to them? For example, the "best possible recording" of the Beatles "White Album" is 1/4 track, 7.5 ips. Are you stating you have the 1/2 track masters to beat that??? If NOT, then you DO NOT have the "best possible recording". And to say an Otari is "overkill" to play back that best possible recording of the 1/4 track Beatles album is simply insane. No deck would be overkill to play back that 1/4 track tape Dolph----it deserves the BEST, because it is the BEST!


"I suggest you calm down and research the market over a longer period and have some listening to better R2R machines..............through better surrounding gear."

I know the market. I know the tapes----from the "best possible" masters I have, to tape project tapes I have, to half and quarter track commercial examples I have. And I know the decks, from Scully to Ampex to Otari to Studer; whatever. The Otari stands up well to anything. I would put the MX-5050 B3 which is still sold new today against any deck you have laying around, no matter the price. Period.

In closing, my 6 audio systems have plenty of great sounding gear. Don't see any of yours listed though, hmmmmmmmm......

Like I said, good stuff Dolph!!! Hope you get off your "high horse" soon. I will leave the struggle to you.

Regards,
Joel
RE: Good stuff!, posted on September 4, 2009 at 05:10:43
niklasthedolphin
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Joined: April 1, 2007
 Otari is to the pro open reel market what Technics' best TT's were to any market:
Buck for the money low-end / entry level gear.
That will not change no matter how many hostile posts you upload.

Some ½-track recordings were made and sold.

The master tapes I have with Oscar Peterson, Sonny Rollins, Dave Brubeck, NHØP, Benny Goodman and many others are never published but worth listening to anyway.
Sorry for you and others that can't really have any joy out of that.

let's take this debate in Danish, Swedish or German if you find my english is not good enough to debate with me.
What an infantile comment from you about the language.
Is it your dad's gear you are describing?

Anyway, just because your rich and have a lot of gear in a huge house, doesn't mean your ears can hear any difference between good and mediocre sound quality.

6 audio systems???
Get a life instead.

"dolph"

RE: Good stuff!, posted on September 4, 2009 at 06:18:18
joeljoel1947
Audiophile

Posts: 920
Location: MICHIGAN
Joined: October 16, 2004
 "Otari is to the pro open reel market what Technics' best TT's were to any market:
Buck for the money low-end / entry level gear."

I double dare you to post that statement on the vinyl asylum. You have no idea what you are talking about. The Technics SP-10 is widely considered one of the best turntables ever made. Even my Grandmother knows that.


"Some ½-track recordings were made and sold."

Never said they weren't. But again, you are not reading what I am stating correctly in each post. Must be the language barrier.

"The master tapes I have with Oscar Peterson, Sonny Rollins, Dave Brubeck, NHØP, Benny Goodman and many others are never published but worth listening to anyway.
Sorry for you and others that can't really have any joy out of that."

What are they, interviews? We are all crushed to not have the opportunity to hear those, so enjoy them.


"let's take this debate in Danish, Swedish or German if you find my english is not good enough to debate with me.
What an infantile comment from you about the language.
Is it your dad's gear you are describing?"

I can only speak Spanish, English and Chinese, so that's not going to work out.


"Anyway, just because your rich and have a lot of gear in a huge house, doesn't mean your ears can hear any difference between good and mediocre sound quality."

You left out that I'm a fast runner too. I just ran a 19 min 12 sec 5k this morning. Maybe we can settle this on the track???? ;)

At least you are into open reel, so you can't be too bad a guy. You are just delusional in your thoughts about Otari's and now apparently Technics equipment too. Take care Dolph.







Regards,
Joel
RE: Good stuff!, posted on September 4, 2009 at 11:45:51
niklasthedolphin
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Joined: April 1, 2007
 Ok.

At least I know now what levet you are talking from when stating something is good sounding.
;-)

Good for you that you still have your granny.
That tells me that you many years in front of you.

Take advantage of that and move on.
Get out listen to some real equipment and train up your ears, listen to advices from more experienced people in the art of choosing and matching for achieving synergy.

"dolph"

RE: Good stuff!, posted on September 4, 2009 at 13:11:59
joeljoel1947
Audiophile

Posts: 920
Location: MICHIGAN
Joined: October 16, 2004
 "Get out listen to some real equipment"

I've been to every CES and Sterophile show and AK Fest for the past 4 years and have heard the worlds finest systems to compare my systems against. I haven't seen YOU there. ;)

One of my best friends who is a recording engineer nearby owns an audio system approaching one-half million dollars and has some of the finest components in the world in it---INCLUDING a half dozen Otaris, among other brands which you covet so highly (not sure which ones though, as you never come up with one). The way you talk down to others, I'm sure yours must be worth at least that much money too and just as fine sounding. Yeah, right. You should really list your system so that we can all see how "world class" your system truly is.

"train up your ears and listen to advices from more experienced people in the art of choosing and matching for achieving synergy."


I'm way past that level, but thanks for the idea anyhow. I've been in high end audio for 20 plus years and am a loudspeaker designer with a specialty in phase coherent, transient perfect 1st order crossovers. My ears need to be plenty "trained up" to do that. You must have missed my bio.

"Good for you that you still have your granny."

And my Grandfather too. Both are 95 years old and in good health. Thank you.


Regards,
Joel
RE: Good stuff!, posted on September 4, 2009 at 15:43:21
niklasthedolphin
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Joined: April 1, 2007
 Frankly, I don't really care what other people or my neighbour say about the Technics TT's.

You obviously do.

And when living in Scandinavia, I find it a bit long to go for the AK fest or CES.

How would you have recognized me anyway?

I didn't see you on any of the swedish, Norwegian, Danish, German or Dutch HiFi or Pro sound shows.
Howcome?

To me, the Technics TT's are long gone entry level machines.
They are sturdy and some came with cable remoted start/stop/pitch etc. and that's the reason BBC and other radio broadcast studios picked them.
Soundwise they are nothing.

Much of my gear is something you wouldn't know a damn thing about from where you're at, so what's the point.
It sounds very equal to when you put Mark Levinson 380s preamp together with ARC VT 150 and Wilson Maxx with a Nagra T4 with a master tape on as a source.

My preffered open reel had a $ 15.000 price tag as new in 1984-85 - now that you are so keen on prices.

And I couldn't care less because the quality of sound has nada to do with the price tags.

Furthermore, I have decided, many years ago, not to be one of those advertising with pictures or similar about my gear.
I don't really need to brag and I don't really want to invite unwelcome people to my home.

So you are just another of those tech-guys doing speakers.

In these HiFi communities there are plenty of tech-guys having this illusion about when they know the tech they also have the hearing (how wrong that is), then there's the designer gear-guys, the daddys boy-playing-with daddys-gear-guys, The vintage guys, the Technics and other discount gear guys and then there are a few here and there who have been optimizing their gear progressively through 3, 4 or 5 decades and having just one great and honest sounding fidelity set-up instead of 3 or 6 entry level set-ups.

I started with open reel machines in the mid sixties and since then I have been using and owing hundreds of R2R machines professionally and private. Otari is among them.

Did you ever audition a Nagra T4, a Stella TD9, a Lyrec TR 53/55/Frida, Telefunken, Studer A 810/G36/J37…………well ………….all of these are just classes above the Otari.

Get a grip man.

“dolph”

RE: Good stuff!, posted on September 4, 2009 at 16:55:34
joeljoel1947
Audiophile

Posts: 920
Location: MICHIGAN
Joined: October 16, 2004
 "Frankly, I don't really care what other people or my neighbour say about the Technics TT's.

You obviously do."

I'm just letting you know you are WRONG when I replied about them. I could care less what you think, but man o man, if you post your beliefs on the Technics tables on the vinyl asylum, you will be run off this web site. Take this as a word of friendly caution. You said the top level Technics was garbage. It is not. People widely consider the SP-10 as one of the best turntables ever made. People pay tens of thousands of dollars for a mint-condition example.

"And when living in Scandinavia, I find it a bit long to go for the AK fest or CES.

How would you have recognized me anyway?"

I was joking. That is what ;) means Dolph.

"To me, the Technics TT's are long gone entry level machines.
They are sturdy and some came with cable remoted start/stop/pitch etc. and that's the reason BBC and other radio broadcast studios picked them.
Soundwise they are nothing."

Again, I would be really cautious here. People on this forum will have your account banned for such ignorant statements. Many people pick the Technics tables as sounding better then setups costing 20-30 times their price. See the link below---and be very CAREFUL when talking about Technics turntables or you might be run off!

"Much of my gear is something you wouldn't know a damn thing about from where you're at, so what's the point.
It sounds very equal to when you put Mark Levinson 380s preamp together with ARC VT 150 and Wilson Maxx with a Nagra T4 with a master tape on as a source."

If your gear is relevant and good, I would know about it---European or not. And if you like Wilson speakers or your system sounds like Wilson speakers then that's all I need to know. I now know what level you are coming from when you say something sounds good. The Maxx sucks.

"My preffered open reel had a $ 15.000 price tag as new in 1984-85 - now that you are so keen on prices."

Ahhh, a Studer man then. Just be careful to back up those EPROMS, change that battery every 6 months, and replace all those leaking caps inside. Otherwise you will have a very expensive door-stop. And even when you’re up and running again, you likely will not surpass the sound of an Otari connected to an external Bottlehead tube tape head amp---for a lot less then 15k.

"And I couldn't care less because the quality of sound has nada to do with the price tags."

Holy crap!! We actually agree on something! Now you can understand why I like Otari reel to reel machines and Technics turntables!! Why? Because I listen with my ears and not shopping by designer brand or price. The only reason I have mentioned prices is to either point out the EXTREME VALUE of something, or to let you know it isn't amateur hour over here as you seem to believe.

"Furthermore, I have decided, many years ago, not to be one of those advertising with pictures or similar about my gear.
I don't really need to brag and I don't really want to invite unwelcome people to my home."

Good for you. But your posts and comments will never be taken seriously here. For all we know you are a bum living in the streets of Scandinavia.

"So you are just another of those tech-guys doing speakers."

No. I actually know what I am doing. My designs make your beloved "Wilson Maxx" sounding speakers sound like the confused mess they are.

"I started with open reel machines in the mid sixties and since then I have been using and owing hundreds of R2R machines professionally and private. Otari is among them."

You must be OLD. How is your hearing? That would explain quite a bit here.

"Did you ever audition a Nagra T4, a Stella TD9, a Lyrec TR 53/55/Frida, Telefunken, Studer A 810/G36/J37…………well ………….all of these are just classes above the Otari."

In what ways???? Just because they cost more and are "famous" reel machines doesn't mean they are any better Dolph. You said that yourself!!!! And try getting parts for those machines, or having them fixed when they go down. And the versatility of some of those machines is quite limited as compared to an Otari!

The only one of those I have heard on your list was a Studer 810. I have heard many other fine decks that were supposed to be "better then an Otari" however. None of them impressed me as being light-years better then what I have here. And I know people with dozens of your beloved Studers. They will tell you the Otari B3 is just as good once external tape-head electronics are attached---- it may be even better. The electronics inside all of the vintage decks have been far surpassed by today’s external solutions Dolph. Have you tried a Repro or Seduction with direct head wiring out to them??? I doubt it.

Hey, did you hear the Tape Project has now chosen the Otari MX-5050 as their deck of choice? Yes, it must really suck.

Get a grip man.









Regards,
Joel
RE: Good stuff!, posted on September 5, 2009 at 07:45:39
RedGrant
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Nebraska
Joined: April 28, 2009
 "Did you ever audition a Nagra T4, a Stella TD9, a Lyrec TR 53/55/Frida, Telefunken, Studer A 810/G36/J37…………well ………….all of these are just classes above the Otari." - Nick

"In what ways???? Just because they cost more and are "famous" reel machines doesn't mean they are any better Dolph." - Joel

"Hey, did you hear the Tape Project has now chosen the Otari MX-5050 as their deck of choice? Yes, it must really suck." - Joel


Actually, Joel, the founder of the Tape Project now uses modified Nagra T for his listening. He replaced his custom modified Technic r2r for modified Nagra T.

Btw. TP regards Technic r2r more "musical" than Otari r2r. They didn't say Technic was "better", but you get the drift when someone says one is more "musical" than the other.


With that caveat, I also agree with you that Otari is a good deck. For the money, it can't be beat, but in stock form, I don't think it is equal of the high end Studer r2r, or even high speed Revox. (But I'm shopping for Otari for my first r2r,(I am for now a cassette guy) more to get my feet wet, so that I can go for a Lyrec eventually when I have the funds.)


On your views on direct drive, yes, it's easier to maintain than belt, but play back sound quality suffers. The best direct drive cassette deck is Revox B710, sound wise, it's good, "tight", "punchy", and "smooth", but a bit dull, and flat, I've read an excellent article why direct drive suffers sonically compared to the best belt drive.
RE: Good stuff!, posted on September 19, 2009 at 18:21:02
harecording@sbcglobal.net
 I am coming in late on this. The real issues for any tape machine purchase at this point would be these:

what tape will you be using? Better build yourself a humidity controlled tape storage space for those old tapes. If you are using old tapes, read up on baking and get ready to transfer.

if you are using new tape, you have two choices. Both are good now.

what format are your tapes?

does the machine your interested in have support and/or parts? Otari is the only manufacturer of new master machines. ATR services is the best bet for a refurbished and modded Ampex ATR. Why not use what the pros use? If you do not have $5k to slap down for a new Otari, or $7k for a new Ampex, you can look used.

consider a used Studer/Revox. The former rep bought all of the parts and partials when Studer Nashville closed up shop. He is now representing audiophile lines. He has machines from time to time so I hear. Servicing these decks is usually not as bad as some Japanese decks.

forget Tascam. They no longer support jack. They are a pain in the rear to service. They cut a bunch of corners. The upside is you can find a bunch for practically nothing and rightly so.

forget Fostex. Same reasons. Lots of plastic parts. Junk really.

Nagra is no longer doing tape. They were good decks. Check the LA market where the film guys were using them before going to digital. They will be hard to find cheap.

Misunderstood., posted on September 7, 2009 at 10:39:43
joeljoel1947
Audiophile

Posts: 920
Location: MICHIGAN
Joined: October 16, 2004
 What I meant by saying the Otari was now the "deck of choice" was that they are trying to get away from the Technics machines (mods, selling them, etc) and into the Otari's. The Technics decks are something that j-corder does quite well, and there has been some confrontation between them and the tp guys with regards to the Technics mods. So, as you have seen and pointed out, the tp folks have sold off many of their Technics decks and are gravitating to the Otari's (among other decks)----That only makes sense in that the Technics parts are no longer available for reasonable prices. Otari parts sure are!

I don't care what the TP thinks is more "musical". I go with my own ears. I have a 99% stock 1506 and many stock Otari's. The Otari's beat the snot out of the Technics (again, both stock) in every way, shape and form. The amp electronics in the Otari's, especially the B3, is just in a different class then the electronics in the Technics decks. Once you mod the Otari and go with an external tube head amp however, you will be running with a Studer or any other machine--- no doubt.

As you don't have a reel machine yet, you will learn some of this over time. And your point on direct drives versus belts on open reel machines is preposterous. Old folklore; just like direct drive turntables were supposed to suck as compared to belt-driven turntables as well. Now, the tides have turned and some of the more serious turntables are direct drives.



Regards,
Joel
Otari electronics modification........, posted on September 8, 2009 at 10:17:10
RedGrant
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Nebraska
Joined: April 28, 2009
 "The amp electronics in the Otari's, especially the B3, is just in a different class then the electronics in the Technics decks. - Joel


What's special about amp electronics in B3?



"Once you mod the Otari and go with an external tube head amp however, you will be running with a Studer or any other machine--- no doubt." - Joel


What external tube amp would you recommend?

and can you recommend anyone who does both refurbishing and modding Otari?
RE: Otari electronics modification........, posted on September 8, 2009 at 13:02:17
joeljoel1947
Audiophile

Posts: 920
Location: MICHIGAN
Joined: October 16, 2004
 Electronics wise, I do not know specifically why the B3 sounds better then the B2. Most likely it's just more updated and current amplification. I have several B2's and B3's and the B3's not only sound better, but the record electronics are *much* better in the B3. I always use the B3's to do the serious recordings I make.

As for the mods. I would just do them myself if I were you. You can save a boatload of cash this way and your deck won't be gone for a few months. My guess is this is where the TP is getting their upgrade parts (link down below).

As for which external head amp to use, I would go with the Bottlehead Seduction or Repro. I own the Seduction tape head amp and have heard the Repro on a few occassions at audio shows. Both are a step up from the Otari electronics. See the link here to my mini-review of the Seduction on the Bottlehead website:
http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/Seduction/bottleheadtapeheadpreamp.htm

Regards,
Joel
RE: Otari electronics modification........, posted on September 8, 2009 at 14:48:41
RedGrant
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Nebraska
Joined: April 28, 2009
 Thanks a million.

RE: Misunderstood., posted on September 8, 2009 at 09:25:53
RedGrant
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Nebraska
Joined: April 28, 2009
 "I don't care what the TP thinks is more "musical"." - Joel

Because you don't have much respect for their capability to appreciate sonics?


"I go with my own ears." - Joel

So do I. However, I do listen to other's views, don't dismiss it till I know I disagree based on first hand information.

I agree sometimes Nick can be a bit opinionated, and I don't necessarily agree with all his opinions, especially on things not related to music, but with that caveat, I did save a lot on potentially wasted money, time, and energy by following up on his advice.


"And your point on direct drives versus belts on open reel machines is preposterous. Old folklore;" - Joel

I guess this is where we can disagree respectfully. My ears prefer best belt drive cassette decks over the best direct drive cassette deck.

TP's view (as I have understood it) is that sound reproduced by belt-drive is more "musical", wheras direct drive is more "tight", and after I listened to them both many times, I agree with their assessment pre-mod.



" Once you mod the Otari and go with an external tube head amp however, you will be running with a Studer or any other machine--- no doubt." - Joel

So why do you think the head of TP chose Nagra T over Otari for custom modification for his listening room after ditching the modified Technic?

Because he thought modified Nagra T was no better than modified Otari?



" just like direct drive turntables were supposed to suck as compared to belt-driven turntables as well. Now, the tides have turned and some of the more serious turntables are direct drives." - Joel

I don't listen to LP. I cannot stand, "Pop and Crackle". However, I did notice the lated ultra high end cd player made in Germany, costing some 50 grand, as lauded by the reviewer as the totally unlike your average cd sound, way beyond, uses belt-drive, and tout it in their web site.

My final two contenders in cassette decks, Tandberg and Eumig, both use belt-drive. Even though I do like the sound of Revox, which uses direct drive, it's not in their league.
RE: Misunderstood., posted on September 8, 2009 at 10:12:08
joeljoel1947
Audiophile

Posts: 920
Location: MICHIGAN
Joined: October 16, 2004
 I have zero respect for the tape project, what they think about sonics, nor do I care about any equipment they might own. But others like yourself sure do. That's why I made my statement about them now recommending Otari's. I have had enough lies and bad customer service from them to last a life-time.

You are so hung up on Doc and his Nagra. Who cares. Do you honestly think Doc or Paul would NOT have a Nagra or some other famous deck and NOT flaunt it to others?? They have a reputation to protect and would have to own in their eyes "the best" to maintain "audio-Street-credit". If they told you an Otari MX-5050 was their personal deck, they would not have the respect of you, dolph, or any of the other forum members on their web-site or this one. They are not stupid. They know how audiophiles tick.

IMHO, you are crazy to listen to any advice Dolph gives you. He is nothing more then a troll. He has no system listed, is highly argumentitive, talks down to others as if he is the "audio-god", and on top of this doesn't even know how to operate a bulk tape eraser despite his decades worth of experience and owning all those "master tapes" (on top of owning what sounds to be the greatest audio system of all time, LOL). That is a troll in my book. Either that or someone who needs serious help. After all, taking the advice from somene who is worried about a "stupid weapon-junkie from the US don't come find my wife and other family to eliminate them" sounds like a good idea to me. ;)

Regards,
Joel
RE: Misunderstood., posted on September 8, 2009 at 10:47:19
RedGrant
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Nebraska
Joined: April 28, 2009
 "You are so hung up on Doc and his Nagra." - Joel

No, not really, I only mentioned it since you made a big deal of TP "endorsing" Otari to Nick.

"Do you honestly think Doc or Paul would NOT have a Nagra or some other famous deck and NOT flaunt it to others?? They have a reputation to protect and would have to own in their eyes "the best" to maintain "audio-Street-credit". If they told you an Otari MX-5050 was their personal deck, they would not have the respect of you,...." - Joel

For me, I don't really care whether they recommend Otari or Lyrec one way or another.

However, I do care about their advice being corroborated independently by me, and so far they were on the money.


"you are crazy to listen to any advice Dolph gives you." - Joel


Well, I did follow his advice on 3m Black Watch cassettes. So far the best cassette for the money, and easily almost equal of the far more expensive cassettes.

I also followed his advice on Tandberg 310 MkII cassette deck, the best cassette deck for the money.

I also followed his advice on Tandberg R2R, Nick was not very enthusiastic about them, and listening to them, I aree.

I also followed his view on Revox cassette decks, and again I agree.
RE: Misunderstood., posted on September 8, 2009 at 12:34:52
joeljoel1947
Audiophile

Posts: 920
Location: MICHIGAN
Joined: October 16, 2004
 Sounds you have had quite a good run with Nick there. Maybe best to offline email with him then. That way the rest of us won't have to deal with him. ;)
Regards,
Joel
Not misunderstood, posted on September 8, 2009 at 07:18:51
RedGrant
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Nebraska
Joined: April 28, 2009
"What I meant by saying the Otari was now the "deck of choice" was that they are trying to get away from the Technics machines (mods, selling them, etc) and into the Otari's." - Joel


No, Joel, you said, "Otari was now the "deck of choice" because you were trying repute Nick's statement that Nagra T and other "high end in stock form" decks were better than Otari by implying TapeProject's "endorsement".



Right below are the conversation between you and dolph and my following comment regarding it:



"Did you ever audition a Nagra T4, a Stella TD9, a Lyrec TR 53/55/Frida, Telefunken, Studer A 810/G36/J37…………well ………….all of these are just classes above the Otari." - Nick


"In what ways???? Just because they cost more and are "famous" reel machines doesn't mean they are any better Dolph." - Joel

"Hey, did you hear the Tape Project has now chosen the Otari MX-5050 as their deck of choice? Yes, it must really suck." - Joel

"Actually, Joel, the founder of the Tape Project now uses modified Nagra T for his listening. He replaced his custom modified Technic r2r for modified Nagra T." - Red

Wrong., posted on September 8, 2009 at 08:09:00
joeljoel1947
Audiophile

Posts: 920
Location: MICHIGAN
Joined: October 16, 2004
 When I say:

"Hey, did you hear the Tape Project has now chosen the Otari MX-5050 as their deck of choice? Yes, it must really suck." - Joel

I am refuting one thing only----"dolph" thinks Otari's suck. I was letting him know it is the deck of choice now at the tape project. Therefore it does not suck.

But I will take it one step further for you to make you feel better. I will say that a modded Otari with external tube head amp, etc. will be better or just as good as, as you say, " Nagra T and other "high end in stock form" decks---and for a lot less money and hassle of getting everything to work right. Hopefully you get a chance to hear one someday and form your own conclusions.
Regards,
Joel
Please clam down........, posted on September 8, 2009 at 09:53:10
RedGrant
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Nebraska
Joined: April 28, 2009

"When I say:

"Hey, did you hear the Tape Project has now chosen the Otari MX-5050 as their deck of choice? Yes, it must really suck."- Joel

I am refuting one thing only----"dolph" thinks Otari's suck. I was letting him know it is the deck of choice now at the tape project. Therefore it does not suck." - Joel



Joel, where did Nick say Otari sucked?


Below are the conversation between you and Nick, leading up to your statement above following my comment:



"Did you ever audition a Nagra T4, a Stella TD9, a Lyrec TR 53/55/Frida, Telefunken, Studer A 810/G36/J37…………well ………….all of these are just classes above the Otari." - Nick


"In what ways???? Just because they cost more and are "famous" reel machines doesn't mean they are any better Dolph." - Joel

"Hey, did you hear the Tape Project has now chosen the Otari MX-5050 as their deck of choice? Yes, it must really suck." - Joel



You were not refuting Nick's statement that Otari sucked(not that he said it).

You were trying to refute Nick's statement that Nagra T and other high end decks he mentioned were better than Otari (presumebly in stock form, but that's my speculation.) by implying TP's "endorsement" of Otari.


Nick gave Otari fair assessment (in stock form in my speculation).




"I was letting him know it is the deck of choice now at the tape project. Therefore it does not suck.

I will say that a modded Otari with external tube head amp, etc. will be better or just as good as, as you say, " Nagra T and other "high end in stock form" decks---and for a lot less money and hassle of getting everything to work right...." - Joel



The founder of TP uses modified Nagra T instead of modified Otari, therefore following your logic above, modified Nagra T must be better than modified Otari?
RE: Good stuff!, posted on September 6, 2009 at 05:28:25
niklasthedolphin
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Joined: April 1, 2007
 Quote:
"Actually, Joel, the founder of the Tape Project now uses modified Nagra T for his listening. He replaced his custom modified Technic r2r for modified Nagra T."

Tape Project would never recommend any open reel machine for the subscribers that's not available in a reasonable amount on the market.
No matter what's better or worse.

Nagra, Stellavox, Telefunken and Lyrec will therefor not be an option for that purpose.

Otari comes plenty and can even be bought from new.
This will make the subscriptions roll faster.

"dolph"

RE: Good stuff!, posted on September 6, 2009 at 06:54:53
RedGrant
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Nebraska
Joined: April 28, 2009
 "Tape Project would never recommend any open reel machine for the subscribers that's not available in a reasonable amount on the market.
No matter what's better or worse.

Nagra, Stellavox, Telefunken and Lyrec will therefor not be an option for that purpose.

Otari comes plenty and can even be bought from new." - Nick




You're right on the money, actually, those are pretty much the reasons why TP chose Technic and Otari as recommended deck. It says so itself in the site.





"This will make the subscriptions roll faster." - Nick


That's your speculation, which I happen to agree with.





"My favourite machine is Lyrec, not Studer." - Nick



What do you think are advantages of TR55 over Frida?

I'm right now getting a private offer of one from a music business that's going out of business. I don't know the condition of the machine, except it was used for heavily, but well-maintained.

He's asking for about $1000 including shipping. You think it's a fair price?



I'm also entertaing getting Fred for playback, while using Otari for recording purpose, what do you think?
RE: Good stuff!, posted on September 6, 2009 at 12:17:59
niklasthedolphin
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Joined: April 1, 2007
 I think prices of the good R2R machines are rising.
If it's a well maintained TR55 I find the price fair.

And then why not use it for recording instead of the Otari?

The advantage of the TR55 over the Frida is mostly the gentler tape transportation and the sturdiness of the chassis/cabinet.
PB and Rec quality is rather equal.

Enjoy.

"dolph"

RE: Good stuff!, posted on September 7, 2009 at 13:01:46
RedGrant
Audiophile

Posts: 31
Location: Nebraska
Joined: April 28, 2009
 "I think prices of the good R2R machines are rising." - Nick

...and I concur.


"And then why not use it for recording instead of the Otari?" - Nick


There are several reasons.

1. If something goes wrong with TR55, should I pack it and send it to Denmark?

How much does TR55 weigh? I don't want to break my back while packing.

Besides it must cost a fortune to get it fixed, besides the shipping and the risk of damage while in transit.

2. It uses 1/2" tape, and I heard that it's an overkill for hobbyist like me, besides 1/2" tape costs quite bit more than 1/4" tape.


Fred is a tiny nothing compared to TR55, so shipping it wouldn't be much of a hassle.

...but still I might as well bite the bullet and go for TR55, since it's so rare, it might be a good investment in the long run.


"The advantage of the TR55 over the Frida is mostly the gentler tape transportation and the sturdiness of the chassis/cabinet." - Nick


Does it have roller bearing, ceramic tape guide? TP modification includes it, and I think it's a good idea.



"PB and Rec quality is rather equal." - Nick



Can you clarify? What source are you talking about? Live recording and playback, or recording from other sources?

TR55 has 1/2" tape, while Frida has 1/4" tape, so that's a surprise to me.

My use would be mostly recording from cd and playback, even though I'm thinking of re-composing some of my favorite music and have it live recorded by having some struggling wannabe cover band to play it as an instrumental.
RE: Good stuff!, posted on September 4, 2009 at 18:45:46
niklasthedolphin
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Joined: April 1, 2007
 My favourite machine is Lyrec, not Studer.

"dolph"

Wow ... is that ..., posted on September 4, 2009 at 16:51:51
Dave Pogue
Audiophile

Posts: 7491
Location: DC Area
Joined: October 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: March 18, 2003
 ...unconvincing?

Hundreds of open reel decks, eh? Good thing you decided not to brag.

RE: Wow ... is that ..., posted on September 4, 2009 at 18:47:27
niklasthedolphin
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Joined: April 1, 2007
 That's how things are when you have been doing a lot of studio and live event mastering jobs through 3 decades.

"dolph"

RE: Wow ... is that ..., posted on September 5, 2009 at 05:08:47
Dave Pogue
Audiophile

Posts: 7491
Location: DC Area
Joined: October 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: March 18, 2003
 So your name as mastering engineer must be on a lot of recordings. Why don't you give us a list so we can listen to the fruits of your labors?

It does seem odd that you never once encountered or performed bulk erasing over this whole period.

RE: Wow ... is that ..., posted on September 6, 2009 at 05:20:37
niklasthedolphin
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Joined: April 1, 2007
 I was just about to list up....
But guess what:

I am pretty happy with being anonymous on the net so that I avoid some stupid weapon-junkie from the US don't come find my wife and other family to eliminate them because he envys my equipment.
;-)

"dolph"

Why don't you try to come up with something more convincing than that?, posted on September 6, 2009 at 05:29:25
Dave Pogue
Audiophile

Posts: 7491
Location: DC Area
Joined: October 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: March 18, 2003
 Shouldn't be hard.

Need not to, posted on September 6, 2009 at 05:51:06
niklasthedolphin
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Joined: April 1, 2007
 I don't really give a s*h*i*t about how convincing I am to you.
You can believe my postings or you can dump them.

My life will be the same either way.

"dolph"

Well there we have it, folks., posted on September 6, 2009 at 06:31:38
Dave Pogue
Audiophile

Posts: 7491
Location: DC Area
Joined: October 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: March 18, 2003
 The all-knowing tape expert returns to his bunker :-)

Just listening to some master tapes with quality sound, posted on September 6, 2009 at 06:39:01
niklasthedolphin
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Joined: April 1, 2007
 No.

I just return to my well sounding gear.

You should grow up and get a life.

"dolph"

RE: Just listening to some master tapes with quality sound, posted on September 6, 2009 at 06:50:28
Dave Pogue
Audiophile

Posts: 7491
Location: DC Area
Joined: October 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: March 18, 2003
 Hey, "dolph," I'm 80 and have had a hell of a nice life. As to growing up, it's a little late for that. Not for you, though.

And I'm 2015 galactic years........., posted on September 6, 2009 at 06:52:52
niklasthedolphin
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Joined: April 1, 2007
 .....and have been there and tried it all.

"dolph"

RE: Best by far is..., posted on August 29, 2009 at 23:22:20
AudioSoul
Audiophile

Posts: 1492
Location: north central AZ
Joined: July 9, 2005
Contributor
  Since: September 24, 2009

You are right Joel. That about summs it up. Thank you for the direct answers to the direct questions I had. You are very helpfull

More advantages....can't resist...., posted on August 30, 2009 at 04:35:10
joeljoel1947
Audiophile

Posts: 920
Location: MICHIGAN
Joined: October 16, 2004
 You are welcome....
Also---
*direct drive motors, no belts in this machine to worry about.
*Balanced transformerless XLR I/Os
*DC capstan, Quartz PLL servo-controlled
*Built-in mini-autolocator
*Built-in test oscillator and external oscillator input making calibration a breeze
*Variable pitch control (±20%)
*Edit function + light when edit is engaged.
*Large/Small reel control for accurate tape-tension.
*Splicing block mounted on the head-cover for easy splicing.

Regards,
Joel
Great decks but ..., posted on August 29, 2009 at 16:58:45
Dave Pogue
Audiophile

Posts: 7491
Location: DC Area
Joined: October 9, 2001
Contributor
  Since: March 18, 2003
 ... not all of them have 4-track playback. You have to ask.

99.1% probability...., posted on August 29, 2009 at 17:24:01
joeljoel1947
Audiophile

Posts: 920
Location: MICHIGAN
Joined: October 16, 2004
 That a MX-5050 non-BIII model will come with both 2 and 4 track heads. With the BIII, you have less then a 10% probability both will be there, as it was a "special order item". But the "best part" is that the 2 and 4 track headstack from the other 99.1% of MX-5050 Otari's "plops right in" to a BIII. They are totally interchangeable headstacks---- which is another attractive reason to own a MX-5050 model as I stated.

But you are right, on the .9% chance the 4-track head is missing on the MX-5050 (BII-2) (BII-4) (BII-F) (BII-2E) or BII-mk.3 console 5050 models, I guess it doesn't hurt to ask!!!

Touche Dave. And have a great evening! ;)
Regards,
Joel
The Tape Project Forum, posted on August 29, 2009 at 07:19:26
mikel
Reviewer

Posts: 2342
Joined: July 4, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 2, 2000
 i stongly recommend a visit to The Tape Project forum for a great place to ask any RTR question. there is also a wonderful FAQ and RTR primer as a sticky at the top of the General Discussion forum on the Tape Project forum. you can ask about entry level RTR decks and which ones will work best for your particular needs.

when i started getting into RTR just 2 years ago there was almost no info for the RTR newbie......things are much better now.

mikel

RE: Reeeeeel To Reeeeeel, posted on August 29, 2009 at 03:36:47
afmelo
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: Lisbon
Joined: August 21, 2009
 I have a Revox A700 and it is outstanding! It even has a mixing console incorporated! The quality of the recording and playback is fantastic.
I would advise any of the Revox recorders!
Also Akai, wih their excellent GX heads, Technics RS 1500 - strongly recommended by "The Tape Project"-http://www.tapeproject.com/machines/machines.htm

Hope this helps!
RE: Reeeeeel To Reeeeeel, posted on August 28, 2009 at 17:11:25
grhughes
Audiophile

Posts: 1871
Location: Central US
Joined: February 17, 2004
 Revox is a good beginner deck; A77, B77, even a G36. Otari is very good. Crown CX series is good. I'd stay away from a pro Ampex or Scully or 3M unless you have lots of money. The heads for these machines are not cheap to replace. You have to be warned about decks used in radio stations. They are generally worn out. Ray
"I think the journey should be just as enjoyable as the destination." GRH
RE: Look for a Revox / Studer A77, posted on October 20, 2009 at 05:06:42
LouisM
 If I would recommend a reel to reel, it would be the legendary Revox / Studer A77. Studio engineers tell me today they did master first class musicians with the A77.

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