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Marten Speakers

190.233.53.229

Posted on January 9, 2017 at 14:03:10
RIQUE
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Florida
Joined: May 15, 2016
I have a budget of 15000US for a new pair of speakers and its been quite hard to come to a final decision. Specially because I can't listen to them. These are the ones I am considering.

1 Martens Django XL
2 Focal Sopra 2
3 B&W 803 D3
4 Magnepan 20.7
5 Magnepan 3.7i
6 Martin Logan Summit

My first choice is Martens because all of the reviews I have read are amazing...anybody on the forum have a pair or can comment on my list...

About the Martens Django XL..

Stereophile Class A recommended component "Paird with electronics I had on hand the Marten's Django XL gave me the best sound ever I have heard in my room"

Absolute Sound "Under the right conditions, it delivers near-reference-caliber performance in many categories, adding up to the musical engagement we crave"

Positive Feedback "I have rarely heard better sound staging, depth, definition, or imaging in speakers, even those costing double and triple the Djangos."

HiFi&Records Germany "RESULT
How is this possible? That is the question I have asked myself many times during my time with Django. It is quite clear that one must look with a magnifying glass to find a speaker with such a bandwidth, wide soundstage, detail and balance. The joy that this speaker conveys with small competent amplifier is great. The Marten Django is a declaration of war and that a clear one"

 

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RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 9, 2017 at 15:58:06
mlsstl
Audiophile

Posts: 104
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
You're going to spend $15K on speakers without listening first? Wow.

I have never used reviews as anything more than one of several methods to choose possible candidates. If I can't listen first (or return for a full refund), then I would never buy them.

But, to each his own.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 9, 2017 at 16:06:21
Coytee
Audiophile

Posts: 75
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: May 19, 2010
If you have that type of budget, you really should go hear a pair of 2-way horns (Klipsch Jubilee)

Dynamics out the wazoo with a fully horn loaded speaker, incredible yet delicate detail to boot!

I know of a handful of people who bought them without having heard them on Paul Klipsch's reputation and the history of the Khorn (the Jubilee was designed to become the Khorn II but instead, was shuffled into the cinema lineup after he passed away....today, there are maybe 25 people in the world that have a pair (USA, Germany, Australia, England, Canada))

Happens that I have a pair in Knoxville, "just up the road" from you (HA)

If you care to make a road trip, you are welcome to hear them in a home environment.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 9, 2017 at 16:21:00
RIQUE
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Florida
Joined: May 15, 2016
There is a difference between want to and being able. I can't audition those brands. NO dealers around

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 9, 2017 at 16:44:23
fstein
Audiophile

Posts: 1494
Location: fstein
Joined: May 18, 2006
Buy the class SA speaker of 3 years ago used

 

If you can't audition, posted on January 9, 2017 at 16:47:13
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 1400
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
Go by measurements, at least for the first three non-panel speakers. Panel speakers really can't be measured reliably with common techniques in this way (or the results don't correlate with the sound the way the others do). You'd probably need an enormous true physical anechoic chamber which would be very expensive. I don't trust the quasi-anechoic computations in this situation.

It is more likely (though not certain) you would have a preference which is most consistent with what is generally preferred as shown by empirical human testing.

In this regard, the Focal is clearly the best of the 1st three. The B&W and especially the Marten have some frequency response anomalies in the midrange and up which would be audible.

As far as large panels---either you would find them utterly intoxicating or you wouldn't get it at all. The two magnepans would sound mostly similar except the 20.7 does everything more, in particular in bass. If you haven't heard anything like this you don't have a point of reference.

You would certainly need 4 feet minimum in free space behind their panels to have a chance of sounding good, and probably subwoofers with the 3.7i.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 9, 2017 at 17:14:13
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 3017
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
Perhaps if you tell us what speakers you've heard that you like and why you liked them, the advice from this group can be more specific.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 9, 2017 at 18:10:38
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 8514
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
For $15k you better get in your car and go audition those speakers.

A review of a speaker is like a review of a painting. Makes no sense unless you see or hear it.

There has to be some high end shops in Florida. If not get on a plane and come here to Scottsdale and check out some Wilsonaudio for $109k.

For speakers you have to hear them. No way around that one.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 9, 2017 at 19:52:11
RIQUE
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Florida
Joined: May 15, 2016
I currently have 802D, Yamaha NS1000M and Magnepan 2.7QR.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 9, 2017 at 19:55:19
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
Joined: August 8, 2001
Spend some money and fly if you have to to audition speakers. Everything gets rave reviews if you look around. You have listed speakers that all sound quite different from each other. You may like one an very much dislike another...even though both get rave reviews.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 9, 2017 at 19:59:37
RIQUE
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Florida
Joined: May 15, 2016
I agree that an audition is critical but my work really puts a constraint on my chances. I agree lot of products get rave reviews BUT not rave reviews everywhere.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 9, 2017 at 20:16:58
mlsstl
Audiophile

Posts: 104
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
Regarding "no dealers around", maybe you should consider buying an airline ticket or taking a road trip. There has been a couple of times I've traveled to hear a speaker I was considering but couldn't buy locally. It was certainly worth a few hundred to find out if my costly investment was going to be worth it to me.

Knowing how opinions vary on stereo equipment, I would never buy something unheard unless, 1) I could return it for a full refund, or 2) in the case of used equipment, have great confidence that I could turn round and resell it quickly for what I just paid.

The expense to actually hear it for yourself should prove to be pretty cheap insurance. Just my two cents.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 9, 2017 at 22:03:11
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
Joined: August 8, 2001
I have heard the speakers on your list. I like some of them for different reasons. A ribbon panel has certain advantages and certain disadvantages - for instance another poster below feels they don't pressurize instruments - that is my assessment of them - a sub adds bass depth and bass volume but that is not the same thing as midrange instruments being pressurized in the room - when you hear that you know what it is and it's something that some people really want. I've never heard it from any panel at any price with subs or not.

On the other hand the panel can be more holographic like the cleanest window in existence through which to view the sunrise. While a great boxed speaker may tear down any and all windows put you out on the deck - to have you "there" but while there you have to breathe in a bit of smog. I take the "there" with a bit of dirt over clean but "through the window" - you may not.

Going by reviews can be somewhat dicey when you are looking at just high numbers of positive reviews. If you do that then you will wind up really only seeing the mega corporations because they can afford to send dozens of speakers to every magazine outfit - so yes you see a lot of B&W/KEF/Focal reviews everywhere because they're massive and all around the world. But then so is McDonald's - it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best.

Using my Audio Note E speakers as an example: They have been well reviewed everywhere as well - magazines where at least one reviewer (often 2-3) not only gave them great reviews but ALSO bought a pair of either the Audio Note E or J is long indeed: Stereophile, Dagogo (where I write), 6moons, Hi-Fi Critic, Hi-fi Choice, TnT, Audiophile, Part-Time Audiophile, AVShowrooms (bought em and gave em product of the year 2015), Hi-Fi in Hong Kong - bought em gave em speaker of the year 2013) and on it goes. So not only do they get raves but the reviews have bought them - and a lot of them too - especially when you consider the company is mainly an amplifier and CD player manufacturer. B&W which probably sells 100 times more loudspeakers (at least!), should have 100 times more reviewers owning their speakers right? And yet it isn't the case.

There is the positive review and there is the thing the reviewer is truly passionate about. It is very possible for me to review something that I very much like because in fact I do. Take ATC - I like the sound - there is a cut through it like a knife exacting nature to them. Full marks. Great - but would it be desert island sound? No. Nothing against ATC - great build big drive and power (especially the actives).

As a reviewer it is difficult because you have to weigh how good the thing is both to yourself and to the reader and the intention of the product. Some stuff is geared to the strictly Hi-fi sensibilities of neutrality. So I try to listen for what the product brings to the table and the goal of the manufacturer and for what the target audience likes.

So if you want that sort of stunning clarity, holographic sound - I can review and recommend one sort of speaker. But if you like that enveloping big tone and body sort of sound that may miss the absolute in clarity and holographic sound then a different kind of speaker is easier to recommend. Simplistically - some people prefer more truth some prefer more beauty and some want something more balanced.

At the California Audio show a few years ago - I tried to find the best rooms with the best sound targeting both camps: The best two modern sounding rooms (Hi-Fi) I listed were YG Acoustics and MBL. The best beauty sounding rooms I chose Acoustic Zen and Von Gaylord.


So perhaps the best question we all should have asked you at the beginning, accepting that you have to buy unheard, is to

1) list a few of your favorite speakers that you have already heard in your life. (This way we get an idea of what you kind of like.

2) the size of your room (dimensions length, width height and where you will sit. Also tell us if you have a live room or a dead room. Live would perhaps be a room with hard wood floors and not a lot of stuff in the room or on the walls. A dead room might heavily carpeted with bookcases and leather furniture that fills the room.

3) Music tastes. While I prefer a speaker that can play everything from gentle strings to AC/DC and Trance - the reality is certain speakers just don't do a great job with all these kinds of music and so if you like Dio/Slipknott/Nightwish,Disturbed or most Hip Hop then some speakers can immediately be crossed off the list - like most all single drivers.

4) do you think one day you might want to explore low powered tube amp options such as 8 watt 300B or 2A3 tube amplifiers. Many find this to be the best sound - so if you want to keep that option open it will force you to cross some of the speakers off your list because they may lack too much sensitivity and efficiency. (I hate spending money on something and a few months later I hear something much better and then get stuck with middling resale value).

5) Is there a wife acceptance factor on the look of the product? Some stuff looks modern and cool and may play a role. If this does not matter then really don't let it matter. A lot of stuff that looks cool and or has "conversation appeal" like tweeter on top sexy cabinets, or panel/planars or omni-directionals or fancy shmancy techno-babble like Diamond tweeters or Kevlar - or someone puts out a white paper - all this crap just gets in the way - does it sound any f-ing good? All that puff and bluff is trying to convince you to buy the stuff. I often wonder - gee if it is any f-ing good - it should convince you of all that when the play button is pushed or the needle drops.

6) speaking of resale value - this is another parameter to consider especially since you are buying blind. Will you be able to sell the product and not lose too much money. Some brands are very good - some rather not. Even big name high end brands are iffy. It doesn't necessarily mean the quality is poor or anything it's just the way the product is viewed by the worldwide market.

Buying second hand will minimize your damage should you not love the sound of whatever speaker that you buy.

My last point is that there is nothing wrong with your list - all fine makers - been around for many many years - all if it is good in some fashion - but will it be good to you or not is the thing.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 10, 2017 at 04:31:07
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 2482
Joined: September 28, 2013
Since it appears to be easy to separate you from your money, I have bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you....
No one would spend $15,000 on a pair of speakers they had never heard unless they had more money than common sense.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 10, 2017 at 05:21:08
RIQUE
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Florida
Joined: May 15, 2016
Appreciate your extensive opinion RGA. To reply to your questions here goes...

1. Among my favorite all timers are the Thiel CS5, B&W 800 Nautilus.

2. My room is medium size 15 x 13 highly damped

3. In order of preference I like Jazz (Miles, Spyro, P.Methany), Sofisticated Pop (Swing out sister, Basia, Level 42, Tears for Fears)
Classical (Handle, Baroque, Mozart, Borodin) Classic Rock (Styx, Steely Dan, Springsteen)

4. I have two main rigs. On is powered by a Mark Lev 335 all ML SS gear. The other by a ARC and Counterpoint NPS200 all tube. I also like vinyl more than digital. VPI Avenger and VPI HWMK IV, Lux PD375. Koetsu, Ortofon PW

5. Wife is no problem. She feeds my crazy hobbies. As long a colors match the living room decor we are fine

6. I have considered used. I found a used Django XL in Spain for half the price of new...so, there must be a few out there that could lower investment risk.

7. One thing I appreciate with high end audio is clarity and definition. I love to be able to feel a vocalists breath for center rather than a huge image from panel speakers. Thatīs why I swapped my maggies as main speakers to B&W. I definitely donīt like horns. I tried a set of Klipsch horn and the sibillance that appeared now and then would kill me. Diamond tweeters also are very precise but I rather soft dome tweeters.

I know it gets complicated the more you dig in as it is a highly subjective matter but I feel Iīm the ballpark of my musical taste.

 

airtime's story of the day, posted on January 10, 2017 at 07:14:42
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 8514
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
Years ago I was going to buy a particular speaker. RAVE reviews, lots of people had them and liked them, so I figure I want them too.

Luckily 20 miles away a stereo shop did carry them as well as some other brands.

Me and the wife drove up there, listened to them and me and the wife hated them!!!!

Ended up buying a speaker for half the price and twice the sound quality.

Are you getting the point of this story?

Find any shop and just listen to their inventory. You most likely will end up with something you didn't set out for. Where do you live, heck I'LL find some shops in your area.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 10, 2017 at 07:16:11
Inmate51
Audiophile

Posts: 8603
Joined: July 6, 2005
Rique, dude, nobody is so work-chained that they can't find 2 or 3 days to drive or fly somewhere. If you own your own business, put your #2 person in charge for a couple of days. If there is no #2 person, and it's all YOU, dust off the answering machine, and get thee to a few dealers. This will take some planning, but I bet you can do it. Plan a couple of months ahead. Identify dealers with demo rooms. Call them. Nail them down on products ready to hear. Get an airplane ticket for $300. Reserve a rental car. Make a hotel reservation. Two months later, go listen to speakers.

I cannot imagine spending $15,000 on speakers without hearing them first. That'd be like "mail-order bride".

:)

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 10, 2017 at 07:23:18
PAR
Audiophile

Posts: 1922
Location: South London
Joined: April 15, 2013
Contributor
  Since:
January 12, 2014
$15K is a lot of money to spend without hearing what you are spending it on first.

What would I do in your position? First of all I would bear in mind that the existing list of favourite speakers you have may well have been built up from experiences over a period, perhaps a number of years. During that time the speakers that you had heard may well of gone out of production or have been changed in other ways (different components etc). Meanwhile other speakers will have come onto the market which you may like or even prefer to those on your shortlist.

With that kind of sum I would step back and find some kind of way to review what is on the market these days and try to actually hear them ( or some of them) rather than do it as a paper exercise with the risk of buying something you don't really like, no matter that some reviewer has gone crazy over it. Remember he has to find something new to write about every month and make it newsworthy and enticing to read.

So, rather than rush into it, and taking account of work demands on your available time, I would look at my diary and plan to get to one of the big audio shows. OK, shows are not the best place to form definitive opinions but they are good at giving an idea of what may really interest you - especially as some of those speakers may not even be on your personal horizon yet.

So maybe leave it for now and, say, visit the RMAF Colorado show in the autumn or even bite the bullet hard and have a short break in Europ to go to the big daddy High End show in May in Munich. You would get to hear a vast amount of what is currently about there. Furthermore Munich is a lovely city and your wife may well enjoy what it has to offer too. In the context of what you are willing to spend such a trip may be a good investment.

 

RE: Marten Speakers vs. AN, posted on January 10, 2017 at 07:29:01
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15082
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
I've heard both the Marten Coletranes and Djangos on pretty high-end AN (UK) and SS amplification. They both sounded very good with both types of amplification and the Djangos were around $10,000 in those days. On both rigs, both these speakers were more truthful (and less "beautiful") than a pair of high-end AN(UK) Es, but still retained the heart and soul of SET amplification with the AN(UK)amplification. (But they actually sounded better (to my tastes) on a Lamm tube amp)!

Your main points are well-taken. I could afford neither, but had the luxury of living in a place with a friendly high-end seller.

More recently, I listened to the Djangos in Gotteborg, SE on different SS amps and loved them, there, too: very life-like, but very involving.

 

Audio Shows option, posted on January 10, 2017 at 08:17:39
Charlie8521
Audiophile

Posts: 477
Location: South East Michigan
Joined: October 2, 2004
Do you by chance live near one of the cities (i.e., Chicago) that put on an audio equipment demonstration every year. Could be a good opportunity to hear a variety of speakers at one event.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 10, 2017 at 08:19:47
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2289
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
The New ML speakers deserve a good listen ,they are leap and bound better than any before ( never liked them ) and IMO ahead of Maggies when looking at Planers. I'm not familiar with Marten to comment , they are well built speakers thou ...




Regards ..

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 10, 2017 at 08:22:19
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2289
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
RGA,

That was good , concise and informative , Well, right up to the Audio Note interjection.. :)


Regards...

 

Klipsch Forte III Speakers, posted on January 10, 2017 at 12:01:39
tincup
Audiophile

Posts: 27
Joined: August 20, 2016
The all new Klipsch Forte III $3800, were one of the best sounding speakers at the 2017 CES.

 

RE: Klipsch Forte III Speakers, posted on January 10, 2017 at 12:43:09
RIQUE
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Florida
Joined: May 15, 2016
I think I'm going to slow down a bit and take into consideration some other players I have overlooked. The Wilson Audio Sabrina is in my price range and seems to be a great speaker. Anybody know when the closest audio show is and where?

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 10, 2017 at 15:05:04
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
Joined: August 8, 2001
Thanks. I know my AN interjections may bother some posters but then it's been many years on many a forum and many a whiner and it doesn't stop me. I gotta be me my friend. So as I say - if it bugs you so much that the only reason you enter a thread is to comment on my comment - then I am in your head aggravating you - simply put me on your ignore list of don't read it. In fact by entering the thread and commenting on my posts merely "extends" the conversation and you are unwittingly advertising for Audio Note. The exact thing you don't want to be doing. It was those spiral threads that helped me land the review gig too. So all the people who got on may case - well I thank you. You put me on the radar so when I write a review hundreds of thousands of people read it instead of the 20-50 regulars here and the odd newb.

I will continue to bring them up because:

1) I own the brand of speakers and have since 2003 so I know it well
2) If it is relevant to the conversation
3) If I think it is superior in sound to what is being discussed

Enjoy my review http://www.dagogo.com/audio-note-uk-elx-hemp-loudspeaker-review

 

If I was planning to spend 15 grand..., posted on January 10, 2017 at 15:05:12
Todd A.
Audiophile

Posts: 504
Location: Minnesota
Joined: July 30, 2013
...I'd fly to somewhere I COULD audition them! Better to drop $500 on airfare than to buy an expensive set of speakers that you're not happy with, and end up taking a proverbial bath on them.

 

RE: Marten Speakers vs. AN, posted on January 10, 2017 at 15:10:04
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
Joined: August 8, 2001
It's an interesting thing - taste - I have heard the Coltrane and Mingus and I didn't hear what you heard with them. I've only heard Marten twice but I wasn't stopped in my tracks to want to go deeper. I didn't hear them with either Lamm or AN though. I believe it was Cary at one show - and I'd have to check my notes as the other front end.

AudioFederation which carried Audio Note and Marten no longer carry Marten.

 

RE: Klipsch Forte III Speakers, posted on January 10, 2017 at 15:39:00
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 9876
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
Keep us posted- RIQUE.

 

RE: Marten Speakers vs. AN, posted on January 10, 2017 at 16:00:25
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15082
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
Yes, my preferences are all over the place, zinging back and forth between truth and imagination. I am frequently seduced by truth, but have never really been unfaithful to imagination.

Yes, Audio Federation got shafted by Marten, according to Neli. Did they ever find a place to buy in California? I haven't kept up.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 10, 2017 at 16:05:27
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15082
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
Isn't there a small outfit in TN making quality horns? Here it is: Volti Audio in Baxter, TN.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 10, 2017 at 16:37:14
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
Joined: August 8, 2001
Given the room size you really don't need to be looking at big floorstanders which may create some problems. Most speakers require lots of space from walls which means they sit closer to you - with large multi driver speakers they need distance from you to properly integrate so that you don't constantly hear each driver out of step with each other.

Some speakers beyond my own Audio Note E that should consider given you like soft domes would be the DeVore Orangutan, Harbeth Super HL5 Plus, ATC SCM 40 or second hand 100s - I have not heard every model but all have that precision your after but also very controlled sound - and IMO warmer and more inviting than most pro studio speaker makers.

If you are willing to go a bit off the beaten path - I quite liked The Acoustic Zen Crescendo speakers one of the few big speakers that always sound really quite good even in small hotel rooms. Von Gaylord "the Return of the Legend" - I can see why some would feel it's a legend. These are pretty dense and thick - not sure how they'd do in a heavily damped room. The Teresonic Ingenium is a single driver which is about as pristine as it gets in the midrange - and has pretty good bass - it is a single 8 incher and the largish cabinet extends bass response. It's the best I've heard from Single drivers along with Voxativ and Silbatone. But these are too big likely.

Further off the beaten path is Rosso Fiorintino one of the better floorstanders that I have heard. Easily beating top of the line Reference 3a speakers in the same room. http://www.rossofiorentino.com/en/collections-siena.asp

The Usher Be 10 is also an under the radar speaker that I prefer to more expensive B&Ws and Focals.

But some of these floorstanders IMO are too much for a 15 X 13 room. They may have more extension but at what cost.

 

RE: Klipsch Forte III Speakers, posted on January 10, 2017 at 17:37:22
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 8514
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
Yep there is a WillsonAudio right here in my town. I've heard them and wow! However the ones I listened to were $109k.

I would say something stupid like "you can't go wrong with Wilson Audio speakers". Because it would be hard to go wrong with any of them.


Also look into Sonus Fabar. And again the ones that were on display were $246k and as big as my current car.

This is the link to my local dealership. Great guys to ask questions. Even for us poor folk. Talk to them and maybe they can hook you up with something a little more appropriate with your needs. Believe me these guys DON'T have to over sell you.

 

You're buying speakers on the basis of reviews?, posted on January 10, 2017 at 20:22:10
Mr. Dick Hertz
Audiophile

Posts: 19240
Location: So. Calif.
Joined: May 25, 2006
They weren't reviewed by your ears, in your listening room, with your sources, were they? If not, then you better get a money-back return on which ever speakers the reviewers tell you that you should buy. If you're spending $15K, then you deserve every consideration from the vendor.




When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.- Ronald Reagan

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 10, 2017 at 22:09:22
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2289
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
I did take a look at your AN infomercial , I need a bit more pics and objectivity to get a feel for it ..


BTW Your Premise on head space is all backwards ... Jump !!! :)

 

RE: Marten Speakers vs. AN, posted on January 11, 2017 at 08:02:50
morricab
Reviewer

Posts: 8417
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
Ah so it wasn't the sound that made them drop the brand then? They were really big on Marten for a long time...

 

RE: Marten Speakers vs. AN, posted on January 11, 2017 at 08:23:14
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2289
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
What..? you were hoping Richard would have said something .. :)

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 11, 2017 at 14:52:01
Lee M
Audiophile

Posts: 444
Location: Wisconsin
Joined: March 24, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
July 11, 2014
About a year ago I had some time to kill while waiting for my daughters to arrive at Tampa International so I wandered over to Audio Visions South which is about 2-3 miles se of the airport. It turned out to be an exceptional stop. They carry both Magnapan and B&W and I wanted to hear both the 20.7s and some 3.7is. Wonderful, knowledgeable staff. I listened to the Maggies, thanked them and was headed for the door. The sales guy, and I wish I could remember his name because he really was helpful, stopped me and asked if I had a little bit of time. I said sure and he demonstrated the new 802 D3s. When I got done I commented that a guy would have a tough time deciding between them and the 20.7s. His comment was that he would go with the D3s and in thinking about it I had to agree. Those are some special speakers. I've never heard a stage that deep. Might be worth a trip there if it's not too far from where you are.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 11, 2017 at 15:11:33
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2289
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
Thanks for the Tip , never knew there were any stereo shops in Tampa , must give them a stop when in the area again ....



Regards

 

I doubt that you'll be disappointed.., posted on January 11, 2017 at 16:08:57
Lee M
Audiophile

Posts: 444
Location: Wisconsin
Joined: March 24, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
July 11, 2014
From the outside it looks like it might be a hole in the wall but it's a different look entirely once you go inside. Dang, if I could just remember the salesman's name because he was way out of the ordinary good.

 

RE: Marten Speakers vs. AN, posted on January 11, 2017 at 20:06:29
Des
Audiophile

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Location: Great Barrier Reef
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Contributor
  Since:
August 2, 2000
Yes the rumour is a high roller Buyer auditioned via the folks at AF--

and purchased direct from Marten

Tsk Tsk very naughty!

D

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 11, 2017 at 21:13:03
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 6392
Joined: June 3, 2006

I feel you ought to listen to Joseph Audio, Vivid and Devore speakers of that 15k price range.

While you are at it, listen to KEF LS50 also because Stereophile has included it in the same category. Sometimes a speaker will sound as good as speakers costing ten times, judging by the utterances of reviewers.

Cheers
Bill

 

RE: Marten Speakers vs. AN, posted on January 12, 2017 at 07:13:44
Inmate51
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Very naughty on the part of Marten.

:)

 

RE: Marten Speakers vs. AN, posted on January 12, 2017 at 09:32:47
morricab
Reviewer

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Of course he wanted it to look like they dropped marten because ANs are Soo good.

 

RE: Marten Speakers vs. AN, posted on January 12, 2017 at 10:25:30
A.Wayne
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Posts: 2289
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Well , you have heard the AN speakers , so you know how good and being Audio, there's a sound for everyone .


:)

 

RE: Marten Speakers vs. AN, posted on January 12, 2017 at 18:07:01
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
Joined: August 8, 2001
Well there is more than just sonic reasons to buy a product.

If a company is shady with their own dealer/importer then they probably have no compunctions over being shady with their customers.

My sentence was:
"AudioFederation which carried Audio Note and Marten no longer carry Marten"

Simply a statement of fact.

Dealers don't always carry products they think sound better. They carry products that customers wish to buy and which sell in enough numbers to keep them in business.

Dealers don;t always get their first choice either - they may want to sell something but the product is already being sold by a dealer in their region - tough luck - have to carry something else.

 

RE: Marten Speakers vs. AN , posted on January 13, 2017 at 07:01:56
A.Wayne
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Posts: 2289
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Sure and if one can sell a loudspeaker wirh a 600.00 build cost for 25K guess which one becomes number one ....


 

RE: Marten Speakers vs. AN , posted on January 13, 2017 at 19:12:58
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
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Still requires a buyer now doesn't it. I don't subscribe to the notion that everyone with money is a moron.

And if you have to cost sheets please provide it.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 13, 2017 at 19:23:29
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
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And sometimes something else is at play. I own the KEF LS-50 - it's not remotely in league with "good" 15k speakers.

Indeed, there are other speakers for the same price and less money that are at least as good if not better than the KEF LS-50. My AX Two for 2/3 the price sounds better on some things, as do the new ATCs. And let's not forget about the similarly priced Magnepan 1.7. I may not be a huge fan of ribbon panels and all but it would be tough not to include their strengths. They do what they do very well and better than the KEF.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 13, 2017 at 20:14:27
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2289
Location: Front row center
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The maggie 1.7 is very hard to beat performance per dollar , if you can live with the look and low efficiency , Magnapan hit crtical mass on those things about 25 yrs ago , Same for the AN , Im sure wendel wished he could crank up the retail price on those things like AN , even Better have you as a fanboy .. :)

KEF is a technical tour deforce in Loudspeaker design, but this is Audio , choose your poison ...


Regards

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 14, 2017 at 01:31:18
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
Joined: August 8, 2001
Hey those panels already have their own forums. So they have plenty of fan boys. And hey $15k for speakers and you don't even get a box or expensive drivers. I think they did okay. I enjoyed my direct comparisons with the 20s against the 1/3 the price AN E/LX. Unfortunately the retro 70s box isn't cool looking like a panel or a conversation piece when guests come over so you can talk about the uncommon design of speakers without dynamic drivers. I just wish the sound lived up to the conversation and coolness appeal that Ribbon planars muster.

At least ML knew they needed a dynamic woofer to sound any good. Any their current hybrids are vastly better than they used to be! And not ridiculously prices. I awarded one of them as a top five room along with King Sound ESL a few shows back. I think you will like the current MLs more than Magnepan. Same or less money too.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 14, 2017 at 09:44:01
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2289
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
I had already said as much earlier , i like the new ML speakers, King Sound, SoundLabs and Sanders, much more than AN speakers, but that's my choice. I originally hated my Friends 3 way Horns, well until he built his special 3 watt SET amp and tooby Pre for it and transformed the damn thing to really good ... !

Audio Curve ball ...:)


BTW,

You should take home a Pr ( ML ESL) and try them, put in the same setup effort and report back, if you plan on being an Audio reviewer instead of an AN reviewer that is ..

Regards ,,,

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 14, 2017 at 14:27:03
in the 15k, id want to try before deciding all those:

Harbeth 40.1
Harbeth shl5+
ML summit
Geithain rl 922k
ATC SCM50ASL
Amphion Krypton
JBL M2
Used JBL K2
JBL s3900/ jbl 4365/ Array 1400/ ECT
Revel Studio 2
Rosso Fiorentino
Kii three
Janszen za2.1
Vivid offering at 15k

if I had to by blind? ATC. but it would be very weird to buy without audition especially with so many good choices.


 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 14, 2017 at 18:57:50
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
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I have tried a lot of speakers over the last 25 years at home, in other people's homes, in dedicated showrooms, at shows, and in several countries. Soundhounds is a pretty good dealer since it is a large brick house converted into commercial dealer. They have carried Acoustat, Martin Logan, Magnepan, Quad, Final Sound. And second hand Apogee.

So it's not like I've never heard panels. I continue to audition them and everything else I come across - that's what the hobby side is about.

I don't plan on being an audio reviewer, I am an audio reviewer. If any one of those panels I felt were better, then one of them would be in my home as my main loudspeaker - I can afford any of them. And if they were the ultimate then every audio reviewer would have as their main speaker a panel - and MOST audio reviewers have boxed speakers - probably a good 95% of them. So if they were peerless then everyone would have them right - I mean the 1.7 is only $2k. King Sound laso has a panel for $2k. ML has affordable panels too.

It's totally fine if someone prefers a panel over the AN's or for that matter any boxed speakers - but I never get why panel guys get so defensive and can't get that some folks prefer boxed speakers.

I have tried the same panels in many rooms with a lot of different gear over 25 years. And I keep trying them. Some guy hears an AN speaker at a show for 5 minutes then concludes they suck. Well jeez at CAS I made up a list of the best sounding rooms and Audio Note didn't hit the top ten. So the idea that I can't be objective is silly.

Right now SOundhounds is selling both Quad and Magnepan 20.7s - ask anyone in the store if they would rather listen to the 20.7 or Quad 2905 or a half the price AN E. Then go to their homes and see what they are using for their personal pleasure.

I have not been a huge fan of Magnepans - but they've been selling for over 40 years so they're obviously a good speaker - they just haven't done it for me. It's a shame you can't recognize that the AN E/Snell E has been selling for 40 years that maybe there is something to them. The sheer number of reviewers who own them might make you think you should bring them home and give them a try - everyone always says but Richard you haven't tried them in your own home and blast me for not giving X panel a fair shake - but none of those people take home an AN E - the word for this is being a hypocrite.

The thing is different speakers have different strengths - and your ear gravitates to one thing over another thing. It's not dissimilar to taste in music - I hear a given rap song and want to stick a fork in my ear. Another person hears the same song on the same stereo and is dancing and happy to listen to it. It's the same with speakers/movies anything else that is somewhat subjective. Some people like brussels sprouts and just smelling them makes me gag.

But remember - just like you noted with your friends 3 way horns - you hated them at first but then liked them a lot better when you heard them with a different amplifier.

Well why don't you hold that thought and apply it to Audio Note. I have heard them sound poor - hated them when I first heard them - indeed, I don't even care for some of their own pairings. AN systems with their Meishu does nothing for me. The next show has different gear and it's a night and day difference.

This is why even 25 years on I continue to sit in front of panels and speakers using metal tweeters with 5 woofers covering the same frequency response that has not worked for me - but I continue to trudge on and listen to them. And I like the fact that I can sit in front of current ML speakers like the Summit X and be impressed that their integration is better than ever and get to choose them as one of the best sounding rooms at a show! I like that something I always rather disliked comes out and surprises me.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 15, 2017 at 14:45:17
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2289
Location: Front row center
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Again, as a reviewer , you should secure a Pr for your home setup, it opens you up to other viewpoints after putting in the hard work of setting one up to your liking ..

Not listening in a showroom...
Not listening at a show ..


Regards...


PS: I'm not adverse to AN type speakers , i have and have had similar Prs over the years, same for large monitors and floostanders , plus panels and dipole ribbon hybrids.

your Ideology is stopping you from maturing as a reviewer....

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 16, 2017 at 01:17:19
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
Joined: August 8, 2001
I don't like wasting time and money for speaker makers though. If I bring in something I am not sure I will like - then I am not being fair to the company. It's why I bought the KEF LS-50 rather than ask for a review - I didn't like them much but I heard some things in them that I liked and felt would be a good match with my amp. It worked out.

At the moment I also have a space issue - living in HK means a smaller room and position is better if it can be a corner or near side walls.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 16, 2017 at 08:48:38
the only way you can really understand and know a speaker is by living with that speaker in your system for a couple of weeks.

I have LS50, SCM7v3 and P3ESR in rotation in my system. ive had the P3 for 6 months, the ATC for 4 months and just recently bought the LS50. so far, i prefer the ATC and Harbeth, but I know better to not trust my first impressions and know that I need to get used to the LS50 for a couple of months before making sure which is my preferred speaker.

theres no way I could be confident in making a final decision between the 3 speakers at a dealer or show.

Listening to show or dealer tells you nothing worthy for obvious reasons when it comes to very good speakers. of course, at a dealer, if you listen to 5 speakers and one is obviously bad, this can give you a idea. but when comparing 2 excellent speakers, its really by living with the 2 speakers and spending weeks with those 2 that you will begin to notice which Speaker draws you more into your music, ect.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 16, 2017 at 16:04:02
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
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I disagree - a loudspeaker isn't just designed for your room and your room isn't automatically better than a dealer room just because it's a dealer room. I have had plenty of speakers in plenty of rooms and the speakers themselves have not been hugely impacted - Magnepans have sounded more or less the same in every room that I've tried - you don't mistake a Magnepan for a B&W for example. Rooms shift some frequency response - but so long as it's a "fair" room with "appropriate" equipment then you are hearing the speaker.

It also doesn't take 6 months to figure out if something is good or not - it takes me one or two tracks to figure out if the speaker has it or not. From that point - out of the speakers that have it - then it takes awhile to determine which is going to be something more long lasting.

People move - the speaker that works in a 14 X 10 room in South Central made of wood will work in a 13 X 9 in a wooden north Central home and a 15 X 11 wooden home in the East or a 14 X 10 wooden dealer room too. The speaker designed for that space and construction will work in that space anywhere. It may not sound good in a 7 X 8 room or a 25 X 17 room however.

But at Soundhounds I auditioned the AN E/Spe for an hour using a wide array of music - then in the same constructed building I auditioned the Magnepan 20.1 with the exact same music in a larger room more appropriate for the Maggies - the Maggies indeed, were better set-up than the AN E - had much more space to breathe and had 1000 watt highly regarded SS amps connected to them. I put on first a well recorded Jackson Browne Acoustic Vol 2 CD which has excellent piano rendition and this is basically music that panels are SUPPOSED to be good at re-producing.

This is not a disc that is going to create a bunch of room related issues nor do I play this stuff particularly loud - also should not recreate room issues. From the first few bars I knew it wasn't going to cut it. I listened and then looked over at the salesman with a kind of WTF look. And guess what - he just looked back at me and said "we know." (as in We know they sound mediocre).

You can blame rooms all you like and claim you need 6 months with them but the fact is you really don't. So long as you do what the manufacturer recommends and run the speakers with what the manufacturer tells you to run them with - in AN's case you bring them home and you run them with a SET amplifier - not SS not class D or Class T and you put them in an appropriate room size and construction (solid walls) not up against wood frames and doors - you will get "their sound" and according to Magnepan's recommendations - they were set up properly with the proper amplification to put the sound in their best light.

Sure at a given show something might sound bad. But I have tried Magnepan probably 25 times. And even then I'd still try another one at home - I had lower end Maggies in my home for a weekend back in the day. But did nothing for me - although I didn't own a tube amp back then.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 16, 2017 at 17:31:02
k, so your only talking about maggies? its fine if you dont like maggies and many cannot live with their sound no matter how long you try to live with it!

you also mentioned Martin Logan which has dynamic driver for bass and they are totally diferent animals then maggies.

what is the last Martin Logan model you have tried in your system?

you actually said:"There is the positive review and there is the thing the reviewer is truly passionate about. It is very possible for me to review something that I very much like because in fact I do. Take ATC - I like the sound - there is a cut through it like a knife exacting nature to them. Full marks. Great - but would it be desert island sound? No. Nothing against ATC - great build big drive and power (especially the actives)."

have you had the ATC SCM50ASL or ATC SCM100ASL in your system for a couple of weeks before assesing to everyone in every audio forum that you couldnt live with those ATC.

when you compare 2 dynamic speakers that are excellent, it takes more then a audition at a dealer or show to really get if you can live with the speaker or not. many times my first impression on audition is far from definitive.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 16, 2017 at 17:49:12
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2289
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
So when you plunk the Kef's or the AN speaker into your room , you never adjust or tweak after the first couple of Hrs. So you basically drop them and are done ..

Good speakers then ...

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 16, 2017 at 17:53:40
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
Joined: August 8, 2001
Yeah bass is an issue at shows - but most current standmount speakers are designed for near field response and are designed to look pretty on anechoic measurements. Their very design advertisements are that if you sit them away from room boundaries they should sound great in most any average room. So at a show or a dealer you should be able to get a really good idea how they are likely to sound in your room.

Recent Martin Logans have sounded quite good under show conditions - they too are designed to be away from room boundaries. If the manufacturer sends their engineers and/or reps - people they HIRE to set-up the equipment then chances are they are going to know MORE how to set up the product than the average consumer. So if it doesn't sound particularly good on several occasions in several rooms with several amplifiers then why would you bring the speakers home?

Isn't it their job to demonstrate quality sound FIRST before you buy them. That goes for any consumer product - demonstrate the goodness of the product and then I'll consider it.

Sure anyone can have a bad demonstration - which is why I listen three times in three rooms with the three systems before I form an opinion. Heck at Soundhounds alone I have heard Magnepan in three rooms with three different systems.

Lastly, Bass issues are largely caused by crappy wooden walls. The more bass a speaker is capable of putting out the more the room sings along and mar the sound. This is why you always read where someone thinks the KEF LS-50 sounds better than the Blade or the P3ESR sounds better than Super HL5 or M40. And to the extent that the room sucks then yes the speaker only capable of 80hz will sound better than the speaker capable of 20hz.

I get vastly better results with my AN speakers here in Hong Kong than I ever did in my place in Canada (wood frame building with plaster walls separating bedrooms) = typical north American home resulting in adverse bass issues.

In Hong Kong the walls, floors, ceilings are solid concrete. But you can do something with that - it's solid - the wall doesn't vibrate and sing with the music. The bass is vastly tighter. So the big bass speakers don't sound low and lumpy. Then you know why the Super HL5+ walks all over a P3 and a Blade walks all over an LS-50. Although the blade still needs a lot of space on the sides and in HK that becomes an issue.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 16, 2017 at 18:07:22
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
Joined: August 8, 2001
And I may also adjust the seating arrangement - but do you not think that GOOD dealers don't spend a lot of time adjusting where the speaker should be cited in their rooms. Or the manufacturers when they set up rooms at a show - and it is often the manufacturer - it is Richard Vandersteen himself or Mr. Sanders (Sander Sound) or Mr. Wilson himself in these rooms setting up their speakers. Surely the man who designs the speaker can set them up better than you? No? I mean if he doesn't know how to set them up he's incompetent and you would not want to give money to an incompetent?

I have had my AN E and KEF LS-50 set up both on the long walls and short walls - I have toed them in out and even tilted the Kef's up and down. Close to corners away from corners - but it always sounds like a KEF LS-50 and an AN E- you aren't going to mix them up regardless of how they're positioned.

Why do you think I am endlessly patient with Audio Note discussions - eventually they will hear them properly set-up and IMO they;re too good not to love. Theaudiohobby poster here was on my case for over a year blasting AN just like you and morricab but then poof he heard an outstanding demo (by a dealer who also didn't like Audio Note) and bam - it fired on all cylinders and for him one of the best auditions of any stereo ever. So I am quite patient because this sort of thing over the years has happened a LOT. I get plenty of pms on forums saying the same sort of things.

You'll get some room node issues and boom or a bit of reflection etc but one should be able to recognize that and not blame the speaker for it. When covering shows - it's usually a good idea to try and rule out the bass.

The AN E in a corner with a solid wall behind and beside them is pretty much all they need - toe in for staging but beyond that if that is what they're given it should be good - they sound better with their 2a3 and 211 SETs and parallel single ended amps IMO - not so much with 300Bs

Being one of the best a midbass I've come across and tone monsters they're generally fine free standing and still have solid bass to 30hz - 29hz tuning port. But going from merely good speakers to great speakers requires some work.

I didn't find the KEF all that hard to set-up - follow the directions in the manual and plunk them down and they sounded quite good from the get go. It's not like toe in or pulling them 1 foot closer transforms the speakers from being total crap to the best things in the world - pretty subtle.

People move their speakers closer to them and forget to adjust the volume control - gee it sounds better - yes because when you pulled them closer they got louder!

 

example, posted on January 16, 2017 at 18:18:07
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
Joined: August 8, 2001
Here is the room that changed TAH's mind.

But consider how crappy it would probably sound if those DIY corners were not in place. Here is a corner loaded speaker design that in a normal show they would place them in the corner. umm see the big air conditioner - ringing box. Behind the drapes a glass window - and probably not typhoon grade. So on the one wall you have paper thing hotel walls (ring like dinner bells), a glass wall behind them, air conditioning boom box.

So the AN E's and corner speakers do need some work to be at their best.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 17, 2017 at 07:52:53
I see you dont answer my questions, have you ever had SCM50 or SCM100 with the new ATC tweeter in your room? have you had the new Martin Logan speakers in your room?

you say:
"So if it doesn't sound particularly good on several occasions in several rooms with several amplifiers then why would you bring the speakers home?"

were talking about good speakers here, so I fail to see your point. with good dynamic speakers, you need to compare directly A-B test using the same capable amp able to drive both speakers, same speaker position and same source for a couple of days at the very least to form a worthy opinion.

you say:
"
I didn't find the KEF all that hard to set-up - follow the directions in the manual and plunk them down and they sounded quite good from the get go. It's not like toe in or pulling them 1 foot closer transforms the speakers from being total crap to the best things in the world - pretty subtle.
"
this is not my experience. just measure your speaker at the listening position. sometime moving the speaker literally a foot make the response go from decent to horrible.


For OP, this user tried many under 20k speakers: AN-E, ATC SCM100, Geithain RL901k, BW 802 d3, Wilson Sasha. he ended up with ATC
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/wilson-sasha-magico-s-series-b-w-800-series.526482/page-6

 

ATC50s, posted on January 18, 2017 at 09:21:25
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 740
Joined: September 27, 2004
I used to hanker after ATC50 speakers after using KEF 107 Reference for a few years. I visited the ATC factory and bought a pair, took them to London where I installed them in a 350 sq ft 5-sided room with high ceilings and excellent acoustics.

WHAT A DISAPPOINTMENT! They were so "in your face" I wanted to push them 20 ft further away. I looked around for replacement speakers without delay and stumbled on the antithesis of ATC. I'd seen these at audio shows and just walked past on the basis that they were built for looks rather than sound. Then I turned to Stereophile and found they were chosen as their Joint Loudspeaker of the Year. I was looking at Avantgarde Uno speakers.

Just reading the detailed review (in those days Stereophile reviews were 15 pages) I got excited as the description of their sound was exactly what I was seeking and nothing like what I was getting from my ATC50 Actives. I arranged a quick audition in a dingy basement showroom but that was enough to confirm my excitement and I bought a pair. I'm still enjoying them after all these years, although my present listening room is decidedly unfriendly to the speakers and I regularly try alternatives. None has yet improved on the Avantgardes.

 

RE: ATC50s, posted on January 18, 2017 at 09:45:39
are you aware that ATC came out last year with two new ATC tweeters and that all ATC speakers (beside the scm25 iirc) now feature the new tweeters?

everyone who used to work with previous ATC mention how much better the new ATC models sound.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/1007978-any-opinions-new-atc-tweeter-vs-old-3.html

all I can say is that the new scm7v3 that I own are nothing like you describe. they are actually smooth compared to my kef ls50.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 19, 2017 at 01:36:03
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
Joined: August 8, 2001
Yes the Steve Hoffman forum run by Steve Hoffman on eof the most world renown recording engineers who has used pro studio speakers including ATC - he has AN E speakers.

Citing one guy who brings home a few speakers and likes one over the other doesn't mean you have some extra special credibility.

And actually you have, as usual, failed to understand the concept of synergy. Running a cheap crummy 50 watt class D amplifier into a few different speakers and then saying "I have used the same source and amp" doesn't remotely mean you have kept apples to apples.

In any comparison of two speakers it is NOT necessarily ideal to compare them both using the same amplifier. A Bryston amp into a PMC may be totally ideal for PMC speakers so that you can hear how good the PMC speakers sound - but that Bryston amp may sound godawful with AN E's or Tannoys or whatever. Sure if you are trying to rig your test to make the PMC sound better then by all means.

AN E's are designed FOR Single Ended tube amplifiers - and using anything else is not a "fair test" of what they're about - maybe when someone runs their class D trash on them the AN E simply shows up the terribleness of the amplifiers while another speaker with less resolution doesn't show up weaknesses.

The other problem is that not all speakers are REMOTELY designed to be positioned in the same space - you say This:

"Compare directly A-B test using the same capable amp able to drive both speakers, same speaker position and same source."


Well no - again this is completely and utterly wrong. The positional requirements of an AN E and a Magnepan may and probably are quite different than a B&W or PMC - not to mention room size requirements.

When comparing and AN E to a B&W - one may sit both speakers in the typical anechoic favoured speaker position - 3 feet from all walls 6 feet apart and chair 6 feet back. That's fine FOR the B&W. It is NOT fine for the AN E - or corner designed Klipsches. If your goal is to make big advetisers look good on the graph - you gear the test for B&W to intentionally make the others look bad.

How about this - if every speaker I measure I stuff hard into the corner. I could sure make the E look great then! I could put the B&W 1cm away from the side and back wall and any panel. I can sure make those sound like crap really fast - and I'll run a 5 watt SET amp on them. Eeesh - I can make a B&W sound worse than a Bose in seconds.

When you compare you compare properly - that means you take where and what the speaker is designed for. If the speaker demands a "solid wall" corner and it demands a SET and a certain kind of source design then you evaluate it under it's BEST possible conditions. Whether that is in my home or a dealer room that could in fact be much better for the speaker.

In Hong Kong the ATC 100 is too large for my room - at least it's too large to give it a fair audition. It will be much better sounding at the heavily treated showroom I heard it in in HK. It was good enough sounding that I was able to formulate opinions on my amplifier in order to buy it. You are very likely NOT improving on the sound of that speaker's capability. It has been auditioned in a fair environment with excellent electronics.

I am not bringing home a speaker that the maker would prefer I run a 500 watt SS amps or won't work in the space. It's not fair to the manufacturer for me to be wasting their time.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 19, 2017 at 07:49:37
this is absolutely OT, id like to have the measurements of your AN E stuffed into the corner. no acoustician in the world would be crazy enough to recommend putting a speaker in the corner. SBIR and room modes and comb filtering are at their worst in the corners. if you want a flat accurate sounding speaker, better measure your room. since you believe in the advantage of corner room gain, please show a measurements at the listening position that support this.so put your mouth where your words is, show us your AN E in the corner: measurements at the listening position.

my point remains, when comparing two different very good dynamic speakers, I need more then a audition to determine which speaker I prefer. more power to you if you think you can know a speaker within a few hours in a unknow environment. no need for ad hominem attacks.

any room will have terrible room modes. bad bass in room is caused when you place your speaker and listening position in a room modes not, as you say, due to how solid the walls are (even though that can help). no matter how solid the walls are, one still absolutely needs to understand how bad room coloration are and treat, and place speaker accordingly. often, the same good measuring speaker placement for one speaker will be the same for another.

so yes, placing all the speakers at the same spot before making comparison is obviously the only way to compare two speakers. but you dont seem to understand room coloration. Harman does and why they desing there room test accordingly
https://www.google.ca/search?q=harman+room+test&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwigif7Wzc7RAhVMzIMKHcU7DGgQ_AUICSgC&biw=1093&bih=510#imgrc=ElI1uNv9eXGEZM%3A
http://www.bmwblog.com/2013/12/05/harman-kardon-factory-tour-pure-art-sound/

seriously, you even refute the need to test speakers in the same room, at the exact same spot, same amp, source. go tell that to Harman and JBL who designed their testing room and super advanced blind test room. while your at it, go read about blind testing and the effect of sighted testing.
http://seanolive.blogspot.ca/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html

you says:
"
And actually you have, as usual, failed to understand the concept of synergy. Running a cheap crummy 50 watt class D amplifier into a few different speakers and then saying "I have used the same source and amp" doesn't remotely mean you have kept apples to apples.
"
why do you even talk about that or bring this, ive never had a class d 50 wpc, all the class d I have are low powered ta2020 or ta2021. no, I never tried SET with my AN J LX so I fail to understand synergy? right.
you and your ad homniem attacks. at least try to attack me with facts.
I have a 6b4g dht tube amp, a class a sony ta707es, a lm3875 gainclone and a class d. thats not enough for you?

you says:
"
It's not fair to the manufacturer
for me to be wasting their time.
"

oh, but its fair that you comment about a speaker in every forum, ATC for example, that you never tried in your room and spent days playing music threw them.
right, your a fair guy.


 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 19, 2017 at 17:15:54
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
Joined: August 8, 2001
"lol, stevehoffman is not even close to one of the most reknown engineer in the world. on what planet do you live?"

Hmm Steve Hoffman

STEVE HOFFMAN - Award-winning Recording, Mastering and Restoration Engineer - Has compiled, mastered and released over 1,000 record albums and compact discs to critical acclaim.

"He has remastered over 500 Audiophile quality Compact Discs and LP's working with such artists as: The Eagles, The Doors, Paul McCartney, Bob Dylan, The Beach Boys, Nat 'King' Cole, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Ray Charles, Roy Orbison, Cream, The Cars, Blondie, Jim Croce, Linda Ronstadt, Jethro Tull, The Doobie Brothers, Jackson Browne, Steve Miller Band, Elton John, Van Halen, Bonnie Raitt, Al Green, Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon, Stan Getz, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Art Pepper, Rod Stewart, Judy Garland, Ella Fitzgerald, Peggy Lee, Wes Montgomery and many, many, others." http://www.stevehoffman.tv/consulting/

You quote people on a little known forum website who claim to be recording engineers and yet have made recordings of no notable musician or band? But it's Hoffman that's the unknown? Try to make it a bit harder.

Your demanded lists of proof is kind of weird as well. If you read books on engineering - you will very much find out WHY corner positioning has superior effects for the propagation of sound - But all the blather and textbook references don't matter if the listening results are to the contrary.

Asking for the AN E measurements - they have been measured by several publications through the years (Stereophile, Audiophile, Hi-Fi Choice (where it won the blind level matched listening challenges - all three times) and hi-fi Critic (where one of their reviewers also owns them).

One can blather all day long about measurements - but the proof is in the listening.


Plenty of great measuring speakers for less money measured at Stereophile and none of the reviewers bought them (not wanting to listen to them for any long period of time) but the AN E in spite of measurements had 3 writers for the magazine buy them. Not too bad.

There is more to the game than frequency response. Shifting your head 1 inch shifts the frequency response you hear! So unless your head is placed in a vice - frequency response is not the most important thing to be considering in your test taking.

Harman is in the business of selling speakers and using their facilities to help sell their product - not to advance science.

5:37 seconds (Reviewer: Stereophile and TAS now AV Showrooms). Gee he didn't buy Amphion or ATC or Harbeth. And he's heard them all.

Speaker's been selling for 40 years - gee maybe there is something to them?

I'm not saying there aren't other excellent speakers because there are but it is an excellent speaker too - whether you happen to like them or not.


 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 19, 2017 at 18:08:43
and ever since we concluded together that my AN J lx that had serious cabinet damage and therefore make my impression of the AN J lx not conclusive, I have totally stopped to diss Audio Note. Ill try to audition another well functioning pair.

can you tell me where in this thread I have said anything negative about AN?

you say:
"
Your demanded lists of proof is kind of weird as well. If you read books on engineering - you will very much find out WHY corner positioning has superior effects for the propagation of sound - But all the blather and textbook references don't matter if the listening results are to the contrary.
"

can you point which acoustic book promote positioning the speaker in the corner? its absolutely not true. every placement guide, every acoustic books will explain in details why to not place speakers in the corner.

you say:
"
I'm not saying there aren't other excellent speakers because there are but it is an excellent speaker too - whether you happen to like them or not.
"
yes, all you have to say is that. not try to convince people with your "im a reviewer so I know better" attitude.

you say:
"
STEVE HOFFMAN - Award-winning Recording, Mastering and Restoration Engineer - Has compiled, mastered and released over 1,000 record albums and compact discs to critical acclaim.
"

I wouldnt trust his ears, he praised the 15k escalante speakers which are the worst measuring speaker of all time at stereophile:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/escalante-design-fremont-loudspeaker-measurements#TILsoxVQvoMBYOyx.97
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/new-escalante-design-fremont-a-studio-monitor-and-audiophile-speaker-in-one.118794/

Steve hoffman speciality is re mastering engineer. its non sense to claim he is one of the best recording engineer in the world! I dont even think he recorded more then 30 albums in his life. his speciality is RE mastering of old jazz tapes using the original master tapes that was NOT recoded by himself, he does not mix or record but remaster (which demand very precise speakers). thats why I laugh. hes one of the good guys when it comes to his speciality though.


you manipulate information to try to augment the prestige of Audio note. ATC or Harman/Revel/JBL are infinitely more used in the biggest studio in the world.
About the third of the most reknown studio in the world use ATC:
http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/client-list-pro/

now how many recoding engineers and studio use Audio note?

you say:
"
Harman is in the business of selling speakers and using their facilities to help sell their product - not to advance science.
"
well that is your opinion. and with how little you seem to know about anything acoustic, I wont trust yours.
Bob katz which is infinitely more reknown engineer uses..... Harman group Revel GEM 2 speakers.
http://www.allmusic.com/artist/bob-katz-mn0000054492/credits

much more important engineer could be Bruce Swedien which use westlake, David Reitzas on amphion two 18. maybe Reitzas is not famous enough for you:
http://www.allmusic.com/artist/dave-reitzas-mn0000222832/credits

you say:
"
You quote people on a little known forum website who claim to be recording engineers and yet have made recordings of no notable musician or band? But it's Hoffman that's the unknown? Try to make it a bit harder.
"
again and again, you throw false information. which little known guy did I refered to? do I really have to defend ATC now?


 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 20, 2017 at 05:50:59
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
Joined: August 8, 2001
There is too much here to rehash for the 5th time on the third forum. Where did I attack ATC?

Some speaker makers target the pro studio and some speaker makers target the home user. So the argument of what is used in Recording studios doesn't persuade me when people for the last 30 years have WHINED on audio forums about how BAD recordings sound. So it's not a plus when someone says to me Bryston or ATC or PMC is used in recording studios - so what?

Here's the problem - you said Steve Hoffman is a nobody - I simply corrected you on that. Then you go all over the map. What point are you actually trying to make. You want to say Speaker X is better and then point to Harman that use Revel (not ATC or Amphion or Harbeth). The thing is you can find 10 famous recording (and or mastering) engineers and you will fine 10 DIFFERENT loudspeaker makers. If there was a single best one then ALL Of them all over the world would only use Amphion right? If they're the ONLY good and BEST speakers then EVERYONE would own one.


Recording studios have to use SOMETHING don't they? And what they are going to choose is what is available and what is being marketed to them (not to mention what they can afford). Bob Hodus worked for Abbey Road and Abbey Road uses B&W and Bob doesn't like B&W at all. He now works with the Tape project and uses and loves Focal (far more than B&W).

I asked him what he thought of Audio Note speakers and he said he has never heard of them. AN is NOT designed for near field listening (the vast majority of all pro speakers are designed for near-field listening). It's a completely different market. Sure Gearbox Records uses Audio Note (far field mastering listening) which is nice, but studios are not their target market. Mastering is analogous to editing - it is at this stage where you judge the actual sound quality. So I would not be downplaying the role of mastering - consider that so many lousy recordings have been FIXED via a remastered edition. Mastering is about FIXING the recording as editors are about FIXING first drafts and making a saleable copy. The recent movie about Thomas Wolfe is a good example of editing/mastering.

And you are perfectly within your rights to NOT like Audio Note speakers. Morricab and I agree with on most things audio - but he has not liked the sound of them - that's fine - I have heard many speakers he likes better and I don't think they're nearly as good. And because he knows that we agree on most things audio (like 95%+) he is probably frustrated that I love a speaker that he keeps scratching his head over.

But in an audio world where two people can agree on most stuff - that is pretty awesome.

And that applied here with you - you are trying to suggest that I don't like ATC which is false - I really like them - and Harbeth but I prefer the AN E. That said - I get what people like about the ATC in particular - it has a certain slam ability that eludes the AN's. I get why people would gravitate to the more pinpoint sounding ATCs. That's fine - I like that presentation too. But the fact remains when I listen to my inner circle discs - the ones I like the best - it goes to an emotional response (heart over head) and the AN E moves me emotionally - the ATC speakers just don't. A graph isn't going to help anyone on this. It either does it for you or it don't. And since I'm the one putting my money out on it - I want the one that does it for me.

And it's been selling for 40 years and has done it for a lot of people over that time too. Factor in that I owned the AN J/Spe since 2004 and sold them for nearly 20% more than I originally paid - I factor in the value for dollar (as in free). I factor in that the speaker only needs 7 watts has bass to below 30hz and can also handle 150 watts. So I get way more amplifier choices than can successfully drive a Harbeth or ATC and in general the AN's cost significantly less money and to me sound at least as good if not better.

And guess what - plenty of other posters would much prefer to burn up all these boxed speakers in a big ole bonfire and buy some Electrostats. And I understand why those people like those speakers better - they have their strengths that boxes generally don't capture - it's about the compromises you can live with.

One book: N. W. McLaughlin's Loudspeakers, McGraw-Hill 1934

Look in the reference section of most any book on loudspeakers - you should see the name Leo Beranek in almost if not all of them. Then read his books on corner placement. He's the one who came up with the Type E cabinet design - Peter Snell invented the wavelaunch and AN simply uses much better parts and changed the port design to operate in a corner. If you want other reading materials you need to ask the likes of Andy Whittle at Audio Note or Peter Qvortrup via e-mail.

Since I am not in the business of designing loudspeaker or care to these are not the reading materials I buy. When I buy a toaster - I don't read fifty books on toaster design nor when I buy a car.

I buy a stereo to listen to music - not to spend all day and all night every night every week every month and every year pissing around with the gear. I have this crazy notion that one should be able to sit back and listen to music on it without constantly under stress that something is not quite right so I have to bring home 6 other cables amplifiers and footers.

Once you are in that mode of constant "it's not right" well you are exactly doing what Peter Qvortrup and Leonard Norwitz wrote about many years ago - you are on the road to audio hell. I have had AN speakers and been happy with them since 2003. Been in the same retread spirals - but the measurements say this, free standing is better, speakers should be curved, blah blah blah. Then go buy those and be happy. It's a free country - until Jan 20th. Then I'm not so sure.

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 23, 2017 at 09:43:39
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2289
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
Free people never buy little box speakers, little box speakers in corners are for those in chains, that kind of mental slavery is no longer here..

LMAO Your Insanity does run deep , every discussion or question ends with AN and or one of your silly libtard jabs..


Sheeeesh ...

 

RE: Marten Speakers, posted on January 25, 2017 at 06:02:20
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 10052
Joined: August 8, 2001
You can't please all the people all of the time. Calling me a libtard is fine by me. I do wish people would call names to people's faces not behind screens though. It does seem a little weak to me. Granted people get frustrated from time to time including me, but I've not met too many people who are not liberal on some issues or conservative on some issues.

I like PBS for example so I wish this wasn't going to get the axe. I am against the TOP so good for Trump to get rid of that. Trump wants the death penalty for pedophiles...good no problem with me. The world isn't all black or white. Liberals tend to over think things and conservatives tend to act first before they thought it through...like attacking the wrong country after 9/11. Shoot...oops. made the entire region worse.

There should be a mandatory min IQ level of 120 to enter any office and one should score high on the EQ scale as well.

I recommend what I would buy. I just bought the $23kUS AN-E/SPx Alnico HE Hemp version. Other people can buy whatever they like and if they want to recommend them every single post that is A-OK with me. I hope others emphatically live the sound of their systems as I do mine. More happiness the less miserable people will be perhaps.

Sorry for slow reply on vacation again. Happy year of the rooster. Relax and listen to some tunes.

 

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