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From larva to tadpole: pls help me step up my classical music system

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Posted on August 21, 2012 at 12:35:25
Johnny Sakko
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: Northeast United States
Joined: August 21, 2012
 As a speaker newbie, I have been getting my listening ears wet with my BIC Venturi bookshelf speakers. Though I listen mostly to classical music these days: piano (sonatas and concertos); classical guitar (Segovia, Bream, Williams); orchestral music; my occasional jazz listening is making me realize that I now need to take another baby step in my speaker listening education. (Specifically, when I listen to Miles Davis at Carnegie Hall, the high notes sound horrible and distorted.) I have been doing a lot of reading and going to my local Big Box store, but I am floundering on my choices.

I have an Onkyo TX-SR508 in my long, narrow living room. I would like to spend less than $500.

I am intrigued by vintage speakers. (I have been reading about vintage Advent and Acoustic Research speakers, for instance.) Or in my budget, do I want to stay with new speakers? I have also seen that Stereophile and other sites like the PSB speakers priced in my range. Entry-level Bowers & Wilkins (said not to go well with Onkyo???) and Wharfedale?

Besides classical, I listen to Beatles and contemporary bands that have more piano and acoustic guitar ~ Keane and One Republic. I dig lady jazz singers. I sometimes dig out the progressive rock and pop metal of my 80s high school days. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

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RE: From larva to tadpole: pls help me step up my classical music system, posted on August 21, 2012 at 12:51:11
must
Audiophile

Posts: 352
Location: pacific northwest
Joined: December 22, 2003
 Consider vintage ADS speakers. Wide range of models and sizes to select from and most in your price range. Quality sound on most genres of music. I have an Onkyo system driving ADS L-710s.

 

RE: From larva to tadpole: pls help me step up my classical music system, posted on August 21, 2012 at 14:39:50
must
Audiophile

Posts: 352
Location: pacific northwest
Joined: December 22, 2003
 I would also suggest Dahlquist M series ( M-903, M-905, M-907 ) two and three way speakers. Had a recent exchange with a Pennsylvania forum poster ( I'm in Seattle ) about how these models fly under the radar and are undervalued. Designed by the same person responsible for Alon and Nola speakers.

 

RE: From larva to tadpole: pls help me step up my classical music system, posted on August 21, 2012 at 21:32:58
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 660
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 I can give a strong recommendation to PSB speakers. They are well-balanced and produce fine sound. Maybe worth looking for used ones in the Stratus series--Minis, or Silvers or Golds if you want floor standers.

I used to own Stratus Golds, kept them for a long time and was well pleased with them. They worked well with all kinds of music.

Good luck,

George

 

Since you seem to listen to a lot of acoustic piano and guitar, posted on August 21, 2012 at 21:58:41
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 11560
Joined: September 23, 1999
 you cannot do better than a pair of Magnepan MMGs. They are simply
outstanding, not only for the money, but on an absolute basis as well.
They do, however, require a fair amount of amplifier power (I'd suggest
a minimum of 75w rms a 4 ohms minimum).

 

Get a good pair of inexpensive mini-monitors + stands, posted on August 22, 2012 at 00:18:58
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 13066
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 I know this may sound like heresy, because everyone knows that these speakers have many limitations (and also many benefits, such as outstanding soundstaging, coherence, disappearing, and "musicality"). But when you make the leap to bigger speakers with a wider frequency range, a host of more challenging issues arise, a number of which are related to room size and acoustics and these only get worse as the speaker range increases. The nice thing about a decent pair of minis on stands, is that they will sound deceivingly good on almost anything you play with almost any amp and can easily be decoupled from the room by moving them away from the walls. If you really are at the tadpole stage, that is my recommendation. They will do justice to your concertos and sonatas and guitar music. If your interest in orchestral music is in the baroque and classical periods, you will also have very good sound. But if you listen to a lot of romantic and modern orchestral music, then there can be problems. But the speakers still will not sound bad at all.

Speaker upgrading is the single most difficult task an audiophile faces, once they advance from the tadpole stage to complete lunacy.


Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.

 

Planar speakers require several feet from the wall to work well. So, unless you have the room and most, posted on August 22, 2012 at 07:23:11
cfb
Audiophile

Posts: 1130
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 19, 2002
 don't you are best off with a dynamic speaker. If you go with mini monitors the ADS / Braun are good 1970s sound examples. The Braun L100 particularly. From the eighties; the early ProAc Tablette and the Spica TC-50 both excellent choices and are below $500 on the used market. Yes, the Anniversary edition of the ProAc sells for much more but the mid 1980s production Tablette sells below $500 on the used market. Currently and just above your price point is the Sonus Faber Concertino around 600 to 700 used.

 

RE: From larva to tadpole: pls help me step up my classical music system, posted on August 22, 2012 at 07:50:12
layman
Audiophile

Posts: 350
Location: Washington, D.C.
Joined: August 8, 2007
 I know what you mean about high notes sounding "horrible and distorted."

I would avoid all speaker models with metal dome tweeters since that's how metal domes sound when they are provoked. Planars (and some ribbons) tend to shriek too when provoked by orchestral strings, so I would avoid them as well.

I like your idea to go with a vintage speaker. Many of them have a more forgiving, more musical sounde balance than modern speakers. Look for something with a fabric dome tweeter and a paper or plastic woofer.

Personally I have found Nirvana using Rogers BBC-type (derived usually from the BBC spec designs, LS 3/5A, LS 3/6 and LS 5/9) monitors which sound very realistic and uncolored with classical music. Spendor, (vintage) KEF, Chartwell, Harbeth, and Sterling (the newest company to offer these BBC models) also make/made this type of speaker.

 

Stirling LS3/5As are great, but cost around $2K Nt, posted on August 22, 2012 at 08:47:47
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 13066
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 Nt
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.

 

RE: Stirling LS3/5As are great, but cost around $2K Nt, posted on August 22, 2012 at 10:25:48
layman
Audiophile

Posts: 350
Location: Washington, D.C.
Joined: August 8, 2007
 I agree that the LS 3/5a's whether vintage or new, seem very expensive (the average price seems to be around $1500 per pair). A used Spendor BC-1 would be a better value (around $500 per pair) and is a better speaker.

 

Do this .. IF, posted on August 22, 2012 at 12:43:30
delaney@rea-alp.com
Audiophile

Posts: 894
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 17, 2003
 you have the room and the amp.

 

RE: From larva to tadpole: pls help me step up my classical music system, posted on August 22, 2012 at 14:15:14
felrob
Audiophile

Posts: 97
Location: Vancouver
Joined: August 7, 2009
 I second the poster recommending PSB. For classical and jazz, the PSB Alpha B speakers are a great deal. They sell for around $300 new. Although they have limitations (too small for much real bass to be generated, not very extended highs), for the kind of music you listen to they will be good. Remarkably clear and transparent mids and highs, good soundstage, and smooth response. Certainly worth an audition. I used a pair as I was building my system, and I now have them at my cabin. Every time I go to the cabin I am surprised (again!) at how well they work.

 

RE: Stirling LS3/5As are great, but cost around $2K Nt, posted on August 22, 2012 at 16:43:48
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 4322
Location: Hayden, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
 Opinions would vary on that.




"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Dr. Greg House

 

RE: From larva to tadpole: pls help me step up my classical music system, posted on August 22, 2012 at 21:06:05
niws
Audiophile

Posts: 545
Location: Northeast
Joined: September 4, 2003
 If you are intriqued by old Advent speakers, suggest you look into Cambridge Soundworks Model 6 loudspeakers which were designed by Henry Kloss and are a larger 2-way bookshelf speaker. A new pair will run $200 pls stands and should be returnable if you don't like them.
I would avoid old Advents as any pair you find may likely need to have the woofers replaced or refoamed due to age. The Cambridges may even sound better.
In regards to the suggestion below about the LS3/5a, you can get a pair of knockoffs by Gini Systems from Underwood Hifi for around $600 (plus stands). LS3/5a's should sound good with the type of music you like.
The small Magnapans would also sound good, if you have the right room set up and if your Onkyo can drive them. Magnapans are a revealing loudspeaker and may not work well with your receiver.
I also agree with the suggestion to avoid speakers with metal tweeters as they may not be a good match for your receiver.

 

RE: From larva to tadpole: pls help me step up my classical music system, posted on August 23, 2012 at 05:06:17
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 625
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
 To make better recommendations it would help to know more about your setup and other gear.

1. Is the Onkyo part of a home theatre setup that you also want to use for music listening, or are you only using it as a stereo amplifier?

2. What is your music source(s)? CD player only? PC music streaming? Turntable?

3. What are your room limitations? You are using bookshelf speakers today. Do you have room to put floorstanding speakers out into the room or does the speakers need to be tucked in somewhere?

 

RE: From larva to tadpole: pls help me step up my classical music system, posted on August 23, 2012 at 05:50:54
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 3204
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 Piano and orchestral music is very demanding on the speaker dynamic abilities and its low frequency response and many speakers struggle with female voices anyway.

I'd be patient and look for second hand 2.5 or 3 way ones.
Either vintage or modern but small ones just won't hack it IMO.

 

You bet! nt, posted on August 23, 2012 at 11:03:15
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 13066
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 nt
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.

 

RE: From larva to tadpole: pls help me step up my classical music system, posted on August 23, 2012 at 19:42:38
Johnny Sakko
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: Northeast United States
Joined: August 21, 2012
 Lots of great food for thought here. I have done a lot of googling on your suggestions.

I hear Frihed89's warning that after all this listening and reading, my next purchase might put me back more or less where I started, so upgrading to a better set of bookshelves like the PSB is appealing on one level. George S. and felrob both like the PSB's, and a Stereophile review seems to suggest that they would be good for the kind of music I like. I will have to listen to some of that line.

Several of you mentioned floorstanders, including vintage models (must, Mike K., cfb, layman and niws either put more speakers on my radar, or re-confirmed some of my reading) and along those lines, jsm71 suggested that I should explain more about my current needs / setup:

>>> 1. Is the Onkyo part of a home theatre setup that you also want to use for music listening, or are you only using it as a stereo amplifier?

Music listening is definitely my priority these days, and I am very happy with 2 channel listening, so I want to put most of my dollars in my new mains.

>>> 2. What is your music source(s)? CD player only? PC music streaming? Turntable?

My speakers are primarily sourced through my CD players (a Pioneer DVD player really meant for DVDs, and now a Sony Playstation!!!--thank you Stereophile and 6Moons!), but I also occasionally stream FLAC through my mobile devices.

>>> 3. What are your room limitations? You are using bookshelf speakers today. Do you have room to put floorstanding speakers out into the room or does the speakers need to be tucked in somewhere?

I have the space for them, and my toddlers have so far been good about not sticking their fingers or markers through my existing speakers.

===

Not to discount Frihed89's advice, but the idea of floorstanders do appeal to me. Psychologically, replacing my speakers with floorstanders seems like a clearer step up. b.l.zeebub says "small ones just won't hack it." Mike K. and delaney like the MMGs for people with room (it seems like fans of MMG absolutely *love* them, but I can see my toddlers wanting to push them over).

It looks like buying used or vintage can get you substantial discounts off MSRP, and, especially with some vintage, I might even be able to buy something with real wood, which appeals greatly to me in this age of MDF and plastic. (Buying vintage would also force me to rely more on the recommendations of others than on my own ears. A downside is that I could get caught up in aesthetics over sound. Already, a couple of speakers with real wood veneers but not so great reputations as to their sound have tempted me too much. Understandably, those are the speakers selling for less... but are there any so so speakers that make sense as franken-speakers, whose components can be swapped out? I am intrigued by the DIY Merrill Zigmahornet.)

Okay, okay, I know I am all over the place here, but a big thanks to everyone who chimed with their advice.

 

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