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Small(er) room speaker dilemma

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Posted on November 6, 2009 at 04:36:57
Aeolian65
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Joined: March 18, 2009
 I will soon have to move my main system to a somewhat smaller room (14x18x8). The speakers (Thiel CS3.6) will have to be much closer to the wall than they are now and my listening position will only be about 12-14'. So, the questions:

1. Will this space be too small for these speakers?
2. What are the typical "symptoms" of speakers being too large for a space?

Thanks.

RE: Small(er) room speaker dilemma, posted on November 7, 2009 at 05:38:31
johnvb
Audiophile

Posts: 679
Location: S.E. Virginia
Joined: September 13, 2004
 At one time I had my old Thiel CS3.0s in a 15 x 11/6 room. I was able to sit in the 10' minimum distance from them, and still maintain the minimum 3' distance from the front corners that the manual suggested. Adding bass traps and first reflect panels made a huge difference with this setup.

Of course the 3.0s were sealed, and used an EQ for bass (I was using an aftermarket digital unit).

For me, they ended up being too large for the room, because I was looking for low level playback, and they needed more volume to sound best.
Your room size is good enough for Thiel 3.6s, posted on November 6, 2009 at 18:38:51
PriyaW
Audiophile

Posts: 9570
Joined: August 2, 2000
 Your listening distnance as one poster sadi below needs to be 8-10' away from the speakers. Since largest dimension of your room is 18', you should be able to listen all the way down to about 30Hz which is close to the lower cutoff of Thiel 3.6s.


Priya
No it's not too small, posted on November 6, 2009 at 14:30:32
DaveK
 Why listen so far away? 12-14' is unusually far away for a medium size room. I think Thiel recommends 8-10' listening distance in a room that size, and 8-12' in a larger room. Assuming short wall placement, you could start with the speakers about 8' apart and 10' from the listening position. That would give you nearly 3' from the sidewalls and plenty of room to move the triangle fore & aft to find the best bass.
RE: Small(er) room speaker dilemma, posted on November 6, 2009 at 14:28:07
Abel McCain
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Location: Rocky Mountains, USA
Joined: November 19, 2005
 There are loudspeakers that work well in small spaces. I doubt the Thiels will work in confined spaces as well as loudspeakers like Decware ERR radial towers. They may not give you the lowest lows, but the dispersion characteristics make them a little bit more room friendly than your typical front-firing loudspeakers.

Excellent question..., posted on November 6, 2009 at 11:22:42
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 15929
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 28, 2003
 ...the answer is a definite no - the space isn't too small, but it may require a lot of room treatment.

I year and a half ago I moved my Thiel 7.2s from a 27' X 17' X 10.5' purpose built audio room to a 17' X 14' X 8' living room similar to yours. That's a smaller volume by a factor of 2.5.

I used just all about all the Tube Traps and Room Tunes I had in the big room (click on the "A" after my name for pictures). They were necessary deal with standing waves, damp the room and remove most of its effects from the sound.

It took me about 5 months of casual listening and trial and error to get everything set-up to my satisfaction. A cd with test tones (Stereophile #2) was very helpful in dealing with standing waves, particularly in the midbass - I moved the listening couch forward a foot and there was my missing midbass.

The room sounds pretty good now and the bass is not overpowering. The soundstage is not as open and spacious as before, but the sound is now more immediate and intimate.

Recently I've tried rearranging and moving some of the RoomTunes and Tube Traps out but I always end with them back in the current configuration.

One of these days I'll post pictures of the new room and treatments.

RE: Small(er) room speaker dilemma, posted on November 6, 2009 at 11:11:14
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 1547
Location: Phoenix
Joined: October 22, 2004
 1) It's pretty much impossible to say until you hear it.
2) When you hear it you'll know.

I like a smallish/medium monitors on Skylan two-post stands with a small sub for small/medium rooms.

I have KEF Reference 3.2 in smaller room (but they don't go as low as CS3.6)., posted on November 6, 2009 at 08:17:55
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 I would say, you should plan on sitting close than 12' - otherwise, you'll end up too close to the wall, and bass will sound unnatural (overbearing).

There could be driver integration problem with some speakers, if you sit too close - I don't know if your Thiels are one of them.

First reflection points would have to be treated, but that's likely to be the case anyway.

No, there is a minimum distance for those speakers, posted on November 7, 2009 at 10:34:28
keith_d
Audiophile

Posts: 931
Joined: June 15, 2002
 As a result of one of their main design goals, time alignment, they have a minimum listening distance.

I think 12 to 14' should be okay as far as the required minimum listening distance goes. (Note this matter does not apply with the KEFs since they are not first order and they are coincident above the bass.)

On the other issue being discussed, whether the speakers sound unbalanced in the room depends on their location and your location. It is a matter of trial and error before you know anything for sure.

I think that's a lot of speaker for that size room, but it might work. Firing speakers lengthwise, as you apparently will be doing, is often not preferable, although your other dimension is too short, imo.

For small rooms I often look at the little foreign made Thiel monitors which are first order, of course, and coincident, and thus okay for near field listening.

Thanks to everyone for the input..., posted on November 8, 2009 at 08:57:04
Aeolian65
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Joined: March 18, 2009
 Given the layout of the room, I have to set them up on the short dimension (no way to set up for the length of the room). Once they're in the new space next week, I'll know if there's an issue. This has all been helpful.

RE: I have KEF Reference 3.2 in smaller room (but they don't go as low as CS3.6)., posted on November 6, 2009 at 09:51:19
Aeolian65
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Joined: March 18, 2009
 Thanks.

Generally, how would a driver integration problem manifest itself? My speakers are raked back (to time-align the drivers, perhaps?). Might I end up with more treble energy than is ideal when sitting closer(these things can be tricky in that regard under the best of circumstances)?

Hopefully, somebody who experienced the problem will chime in., posted on November 6, 2009 at 10:46:23
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 I would say - excessive treble energy, and bass that seems "detached" from the rest of music.

RE: Small(er) room speaker dilemma, posted on November 6, 2009 at 04:57:42
KlausR.
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Joined: November 17, 2004
 Speakers closer to the wall may result in boundary reinforcement of the bass. The frequency below wich an increase of 2.5 - 3 dB is likely to occur is calculated as follows:

f = a/x

f = frequency in Hz
a = 34.3 m/s
x = distance of centre of bass driver from wall in m

Klaus

Can you give a example how to use the formula - nt, posted on November 6, 2009 at 06:50:57
fin1bxn@msn.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1459
Location: new jersey
Joined: November 15, 2005
 thanks

RE: Can you give a example how to use the formula - nt, posted on November 6, 2009 at 08:43:37
KlausR.
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Joined: November 17, 2004
 f = a/x

f = frequency in Hz
a = 34.3 m/s
x = distance of centre of bass driver from wall in m


When the centre of the bass driver is at 1 m (3.3 ft) from a wall, then the level of all frequencies below 34 Hz will be increased by 2.5 - 3 dB.

When the centre of the bass driver is at 0.5 m (1.65 ft) from a wall, then the level of all frequencies below 68 Hz will be increased by 2.5 - 3 dB.

Klaus

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