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Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality

208.240.243.170
Posted on June 24, 2009 at 08:59:41
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 Hi,
After having a good 3 year sprint with Dynaudio Contour 1.3SE, I am now looking to Upgrade. The rest of my electronics as follows:

Teac VRDS-10 Transport
Reimyo DAP-777 DAC
Symphonic Line Amplification

As such most of my Electronics are on the neutral side and so is the speaker.

So what makes me think of an upgrade !!!
Well I have heard speakers which are more transparent, which have higher amount of realism in tones. Thats what I am looking for mostly in my next set of speakers.
I am not a big fan of etched details and typical hifi-sh sound.
While I value neutrality a lot but again I am not really looking to dissect music and find flaws in them. Basically when I say neutral, I expecting it to be revealing and musical!! Not the typical studio monitor types which is mainly used to find garbage within music.

I am also looking for an improvement in transparency. I like my presentation to be on laidback side (middle row perspective). I listen to a lot of Classic Rock, Country, Bluegrass, Acoustic Blues and some occassional Pop. Basically the speaker should not be shy of Rock :-)) but I dont listen to Heavy Metal or Modern Rock so that is forgiveable.
The speakers should not be lean sounding at all. But then I would not want some woolly bass for the sake of fullness. Bass has to be precise and extended.

My room is around 180sqft so I need bookshelf speaker which is slightly on the bigger side (something like my current dynes), smaller speakers generally lack the ability to scale authortatively when the music demands.

I have heard some very detailed and transparent speaker but with unrealistic tones. I normally know that from the Vocals. In general the more precise and realistic the vocals, the more real the speaker sounds...this has been my common observation.

Now, the speakers I have shortlisted till now are:

1. ATC SCM-11, SCM-19
2. PMC TB2i (This is only there because of PMC reputation)
3. Spendor SP3/1R, SP2/3R
4. Harbeth Compact-7, Super HL5

Please add on to this list, if you wish to.

You would see that most of my choices here are speakers which are known for accuracy as well as musicality. Unfortunately, I can only audition the ATC here in my country. Others would be a blind buy. Although I would agree that I am fascinated by reviews of Harbeth...but there is also an impression that Harbeth will NEVER do rock (which seems hard to believe), would need your inputs on that.

ATCs are also on the top of my list because they are supposedly very transparent and true to music. But some people say that you can never listen to average recordings on a ATC (thats bad news for sure)....again need your inputs on that.

Please feel free suggest whatever you would like to. I really need more clarity in this upgrade cycle.

regards.

I FINALLY BOUGHT THE...., posted on November 4, 2009 at 05:00:46
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 ATC SCM 40.

Even though it is not a standmount, but it sounds just as accurate and neutral like a standmount. Just that it has a bit deeper in the bass which is super accurate, tight, fast, detailed..you name it.

I went to Singapore (the closest destination from India) to listen to all the speakers I could...typically Harbeth, Spendors, Proac D2, Wilson Benesch Arc, Tannoy Prestige Line and I ended up listening to all of these plus a lot of lot of other brands. I listened to almost everything that was on offer.

But the only speaker which totally mesmerized me was ATC. Not just the SCM 40 but starting from the very basic SCM-11...they were just champions!!!! Superb Neutrality, the most accurate yet enjoyble bass of all the speakers I heard there and Tonality to die for. I thought Harbeth are great on Voices...but ATC is way more accurate in presenting the exact texture, tone and timbre of the voice....it is dead on.
Similarly for instruments, they just rule when it comes to tone and timbre. Thats why I pulled the trigger and went for the best ATC I could afford. Areas, where it lacked compared to some other very good speakers were highs...for example the Esotar tweeter on a C1 sounded just too good and ATC was just average in comparison. However they are so well integrated that you would hardly ever listen to the tweeter separately...it will always be one homogeneous speaker giving out music as a whole. Yes, it does tell you about bad recordings but if it is correctly setup (which is not easy) it will never spit at you. All your recordings will be listenable if there is a scope.

Another thing that surprised me was, even though it comes from a studio monitor background, it does not sound forward. Everything comes from behind the speaker with a nicely lit soundstage. It can sound very romantic with Jazz and super dynamic with Rock...if the recording has it.
I mean you just cannot find a signature sound with these speakers.

After hearing such neutrality, almost every speaker sounded colored to me.
And yes...SEALED BOX BASS is a different world. They play those subtle bass lines with such elegance and the next moment they punch you right on your gut..as if saying TAKE THIS!! Almost 75% of my rooms boom problem are gone now. Now hear clean defined bass all the time.

As for driving and setting them up. They require attention. If you do not know which amp to buy, just go with ATC amps..they are a bargain for the sound they offer with 2/3rd of their power being class A.
ATCs require good amps because they are insensitive but unlike Dynaudio, their impedance doesnt dip below 6 ohms for most part so any amp with good current capability can drive it. I even heard them with a 50 watt tube amp and they were sounding very good.

They reveal all your system weaknesses very easily like cables, power quality etc..So you will need to address these things at some point of time if you own ATCs...but the good thing is, for most part all these extra fixes are permanent because with ATCs you know you are hearing the truth and you know you are fixing the right problem. You would not have to bother about these issues in future in general.

So that was my story which has been building up for the last 6 months and is still on because I am still not over getting the best out of ATCs, tweaks are on. If any one is interested to know more, kindly ping me.

regards.

RE: I FINALLY BOUGHT THE...., posted on November 4, 2009 at 06:59:42
Sunya
Audiophile

Posts: 386
Joined: July 11, 2007
 You did have some threads on A'gon about amplification and listening with the grills on/off; glad it all worked well in the end.

RE: I FINALLY BOUGHT THE...., posted on November 5, 2009 at 00:57:43
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 Yes, thats the reason I have laid some emphasis in my previous post that ATCs requires some attention to be setup well. All my concerns on Agon are now gone !!! It was just a matter of placement and toe in/out issue.
Now I listen with Grills off with my same electronics with joy :-).

RE: Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality, posted on July 1, 2009 at 18:02:19
capaudio
 Look at the Sonist Cocerto 2 !!!!

Spendor SP3, Penaudio Rebel and Ascendo C5, posted on July 1, 2009 at 09:07:22
DanWKW
Audiophile

Posts: 465
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: June 17, 2009
 I have talked to my friends about your case. One of my friends has a pair of Dynaudio Studio Monitor bookshelf(7" woofer, Model forgot, sorry) and a pair of Penaudio Rebel. So I tried the speakers for a couple of hours over there.

During the audition, the CD and Integrated were both from Synthesis, made in Italy, tube designed. Room size was 10' x 20' x 10' (W x L x H)approx. The result in brief was: Dyna sounds more mechanical and aggressive than Penaudio. Penaudio Rebel, however, had a deep wide soundstage with everything smooth and clear.

Penaudio Rebel won over Dynaudio with its ability to draw your attention to the music but not to the speakers.

On the other occasion, I auditioned Elac FS-247, Spendor SP3 and Ascendo C-5 with Atoll IN100 integrated amp and TEAC SA-60 CD/SACD. Room size was 10' x 15' x 11' (W x L x H). Spendor SP3 was overall OK especially considering its price. Elac FS-247 was TOO BIG for that room, BOOMING very serious, absolutely not the best among them!!!

However, Ascendo C5, a 2-way coaxial design, had outstanding ability to establish a natural, clearer soundstage, and was able to maintain a high level of clarity. I remembered Rickie Lee Jones (first album, non-audiophile) CD was seldom sounded this good with this price range rig. No booming in mid and lower range may not be surpassed by the others.

I ain't sure this will help. But that was all I could find as close as possible to your rig and environment. First choice, Ascendo C5(overall winner, neutral and clear). Second, Penaudio Rebel(smooth, very good for strings). Third, Spendor SP3(if being price-wised).

I really hope that you can find local dealers for these models.

Best regards
Dan

Remember there are a lot of people around the world, who are suffering from poverty and diseases, in need of our help. Please save some for them, find any reliable organizations and donate to them.
RE: Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality, posted on July 1, 2009 at 03:37:16
Audio Pharaoh
Audiophile

Posts: 3834
Joined: January 24, 2001
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Hi,

Like 'layman' below, I'd go for one of the Tannoy Dual Concentrics from the Prestige line. With your budget you'll be able to get a nice pair of those.

I also believe that once you're hooked on them you'll never go back to any other loudspeaker. Been there, done that...!

Good Luck

AP

NetGear ReadyNas->Linn Sneaky DS->AudioNote DAC 3.1x/II Balanced->SimAudio Moon P-5->Beard P35mk2 Tube Amp EL-84->Tannoy GRF Memory's..Cables by Audience Au24 & PowerChord -> Shunyata Hydra 6 PLC feeding everything <----
Sjofn HiFi Guru QM 10 monitor loudspeakers, posted on July 1, 2009 at 07:14:01
Jesse
Audiophile

Posts: 446
Location: .
Joined: August 17, 2002
 The Sjorn HiFi Guru QM 10 monitor loudspeakers are GREAT speakers with unbelievable transparency and great bass. It is hard to believe the quality and quantity of sound coming out of these small speakers and they are best placed against the front wall so room placement is very easy.

Tannoy Dual Concentrics: Arent they too big for my 200sqft room ?, posted on July 1, 2009 at 04:56:41
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 They look like some big floorstanders having 10" drivers at the minimum. I am assuming they are for big rooms. My room is only 14ft X 14ft...how do they fit in there ???????

RE: Tannoy Dual Concentrics: Arent they too big for my 200sqft room ?, posted on July 1, 2009 at 05:53:54
Audio Pharaoh
Audiophile

Posts: 3834
Joined: January 24, 2001
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 One of the best attributes of the Prestige line is being very forgiving to room size and acoustics. My listening area is very close to yours (14ft x 12ft) and the GRF's are big babies with a 15" DC driver. I have no problems whatsoever, they don't shout, they don't scream and are still sonically laid back enough. Of course if room size was bigger I'd be having better sound stage depth and height but for now they still perform marvelously.

Size wise the GRF's are very similar to the current Canterbury 15. You have 7 different classic Prestige models to choose from. The only model that would need a really bigger room are the Westminster's. Aside from that you're practically safe with any of the others.

Hope this helps..

AP




NetGear ReadyNas->Linn Sneaky DS->AudioNote DAC 3.1x/II Balanced->SimAudio Moon P-5->Beard P35mk2 Tube Amp EL-84->Tannoy GRF Memory's..Cables by Audience Au24 & PowerChord -> Shunyata Hydra 6 PLC feeding everything <----
Infinity Intermezzo 2.6, posted on June 27, 2009 at 08:35:37
Jay Buridan
Audiophile

Posts: 1593
Location: Michigan
Joined: January 21, 2004
 Active, not passive, version.

Sorry to draw your attention to...., posted on June 27, 2009 at 05:15:06
DanWKW
Audiophile

Posts: 465
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: June 17, 2009
 Frankly speaking, I don't think you will have higher degree of transparency and neutrality JUST by replacing the Dynaudio Contour 1.3SE. I believe the main fault is not due to the speakers but the dimensions of your room. According to your post, it is 13.5' x 13.5' x(8'-10' headroom?). Under this situation, you gonna have a lot of room gain(booming) on the midrange which will disturb the high & low extensions as ordinary acoustic treatments may not help you out. And you can not play in high volume(say, over 100 dB), can't you?

Changing the speakers on your list is very unlikely to solve all your problems. You may find some CD with frequency tests to prove if it is right or not.

If you are lucky, you may find some local dealers with their showrooms of similar roomsizes(not likely with similar dimensions), and try auditioning, say, those Harbeth models. A model sounds very good to you in a room with 13.5' x 22' x 8.5 (W x L x H) may simply be "invalid"...

It seems that it will not be a simple solution...i am sorry to tell that.

Best regards
Dan

Remember there are a lot of people around the world, who are suffering from poverty and diseases, in need of our help. Please save some for them, find any reliable organizations and donate to them.
Tannoy, posted on June 26, 2009 at 21:47:57
layman
Audiophile

Posts: 71
Location: Washington, D.C.
Joined: August 8, 2007
 You might want to add some Tannoy (Dual-Concentric) models to your list of speakers to audition. They are more dynamic and more fun than many of the speakers on your short list (more exciting with rock music) while still remaining coherent and neutral.

B&W 805S with B&W Dedicated Stands; Sounds and Looks Terrific, posted on June 26, 2009 at 05:34:48
Karma16
Audiophile

Posts: 853
Location: White Rock, New Mexico
Joined: October 26, 2006
 @

PSB Synchrony, posted on June 26, 2009 at 04:07:56
3db
Audiophile

Posts: 414
Joined: July 22, 2003
 I think PSB's Synchrony would top all of what you have listed in terms of transparency unless you are a big fan of the "British" sound which I am not.

RE: PSB Synchrony, posted on June 27, 2009 at 00:46:18
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 7558
Joined: June 20, 2000
 The Synchrony One B is a nice speaker.

"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
RE: Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality, posted on June 25, 2009 at 19:42:33
greg7
Audiophile

Posts: 754
Location: Arkansas
Joined: January 12, 2003
 I just read your response stating your room was a 13.5 x 13.5 square. Those are tough dimensions for any largish speaker. You may like the sound using the corners, or at least grown accustomed to it. However, short of a speaker like Audio Notes that are apparently designed for corner placement, I think you're better off with a true minimonitor, I mean a really, really small speaker, preferably acoustic suspension rather than ported.

Harbeth HL-P3, Spendor S3/5 and NSM 10S come to mind. While ported, Sonus Faber is remaking that Minima FM2 again. I always wanted a pair of those. And one out of left field, the Naim N-sat. Sadly, acoustic suspension designs aren't prevalent these days. But they get around room issues so much easier than ported designs. I've fought ported speakers in relation to my rooms for years.

Wilson Benesch Arc ... nt, posted on June 25, 2009 at 09:27:48
JeffR
Audiophile

Posts: 625
Location: PA 18360
Joined: August 11, 2000
 nt

RE: Wilson Benesch Arc ... nt, posted on June 30, 2009 at 06:54:15
triiiangle
Audiophile

Posts: 250
Joined: September 26, 1999
 Agreed. The Arcs are utterly transparent and neutral. I previously owned Dynaudio Contour 1.3s, and the Arcs are a couple steps up the ladder.


Borrow demo models and listen to them at home, posted on June 25, 2009 at 07:12:28
Richard BassNut Greene
 Who cares what they sound like in the store?

While most audio stores will be reluctant to lend you big speakers, fearing you'll damage them, or throw out your back and sue the business, most will lend you small speakers. If the store is closed on Sunday, for example, ask if you can borrow the demo speakers Saturday just before they close, and bring them back Monday morning. I have done that many times. It helps to dress nice when you go to the store -- if you look like a bum, they may refuse to lend you anything ... even wires.
If necessary, on Sunday night you can leave a message to tell your boss you'll be slightly late to work Monday morning "due to important family business". Speakers are "family business", right?
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I should add that many small speakers can be transparent & neutral when located far from walls and corners, posted on June 25, 2009 at 07:32:12
Richard BassNut Greene
 Most audiophile speakers will be transparent and neutral when placed outdoors where there are no early reflections and no room effects at all.
They will sound so much better than PA speakers placed outdoors that you may never want to hear PA speakers again!

The big problem with placing small baffle speakers far from walls, where you can sometimes obtain a holographic "transparent" image ... is that the lower mid-range and bass frequencies usually become too weak with a "middle-of-the-room" speaker placement (versus placement near the front wall).

That problem is called the baffle-step diffraction effect.

It can be reversed with a simple passive -3db step function circuit (that very few speakers include)

It can be reduced with a 10 or 30-band equalizer, which can simultaneously fix minor speaker frequency response peaks.

It can be reduced by adding a subwoofer to fill in some of the weak bass
(under 80Hz.) ... but a few octaves above 80Hz. may remain too weak.

The trade-off between excellent imaging (where the speakers disappear and are replaced by a near-holographic image, at least with decent recordings)
versus a neutral frequency response (with small speakers the problem is often getting enough bass and lower mid-range output so those frequencies are in balance with upper mid-range and treble frequencies, so the speakers don't sound thin and analytical) ... is one of the most difficult trade-offs in audio!

Good luck!
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RE: Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality, posted on June 25, 2009 at 05:12:45
dnnaudio
Audiophile

Posts: 117
Location: SE Asia
Joined: March 11, 2005
 At $4T budget you should consider a used Dynaudio C1. It is a clear step up from the 1.3SE (great speaker used to have one), and has that slightly laid back quality you seek, while being significantly more transparent and natural.

RE: Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality, posted on June 25, 2009 at 05:21:58
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 Thanks buddy. C1 is the obvious upgrade from 1.3SE and how could I miss it...I did think about it but as I have mentioned in another post, I want a break from typical Dynaudio sound.

RE: Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality, posted on June 25, 2009 at 05:31:23
dnnaudio
Audiophile

Posts: 117
Location: SE Asia
Joined: March 11, 2005
 If you want a different kettle from the Dynaudio sonic character you should probably look at American speakers - like Revel, JMlabs or Merlin. I've got both Dyn and Spendor, and they are more similar than different. Harbeth maybe an option too. You should try to listen to the C1, don't assume that sonically it is just a better 1.3SE.

The Ridge Street Sason LTD, posted on June 24, 2009 at 21:33:21
Patster
Audiophile

Posts: 333
Location: Canada
Joined: November 2, 2004
 would fit that description not sure what your budget is though

RE: Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality, posted on June 24, 2009 at 19:46:14
greg7
Audiophile

Posts: 754
Location: Arkansas
Joined: January 12, 2003
 There are so many to choose from. Spendor Classic models and Harbeths are good but different in certain ways from the mainstream. One you should consider is the Amphion Argon. It's a very good design insofar as ultralow distortion and transparity.

RE: Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality, posted on June 25, 2009 at 01:54:08
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 I know about the Argon but they are supposedly on the brighter/upfront side and would require warm sounding electronics which I dont have.

RE: Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality, posted on June 25, 2009 at 06:01:07
greg7
Audiophile

Posts: 754
Location: Arkansas
Joined: January 12, 2003
 Nah, they're pretty neutral. I owned a pair a while back. Perhaps a bit lean but certainly no brighter than any other monitor speaker designed to have ruler flat frequency extension out to 20 kHz. What's good about the Amphion is: 1) the care they took in getting the off-axis frequency response squared away; 2) avoiding the 2-5 kHz range for the crossover; and 3) very low distortion

I personally prefer BBC protocol speakers like Spendor and Harbeth that intentionally dip in the 2-5 kHz range (the Fletcher-Munson region) and don't have either phat bass and/or tippy highs. But modern audiophiles think those things are peachy so that's what the VAST majority of speakers provide these days.

"BBC dip" is overstated, posted on June 25, 2009 at 14:03:42
mls-stl
Audiophile

Posts: 1628
Location: St. Louis
Joined: April 11, 2006
 As an interested owner, I've seen several in-room and anechoic frequency response graphs of the Spendor SP1/2 series. I've never seen or heard anything that qualifies as the kind of dip in response you describe. I find my "E" version very neutral compared to many speakers in its price range.

Here is what the Harbeth web site has to say:

"There is much myth, folklore and misunderstanding about this subject.

"The 'BBC dip' is (was) a shallow shelf-down in the acoustic output of some BBC-designed speaker system of the 1960s-1980s in the 1kHz to 4kHz region. The LS3/5a does not have this effect, neither in the 15 ohm nor 11 ohm, both of which are in fact slightly lifted in that region."

It goes on to say that the "dip", when it was used, had the effect of making very near-field monitors sound slightly further away. This was effective in cramped quarters, but in reality none of the current Spendors or Harbeths are voiced in that manner.

Spendor R and R2 models, posted on June 24, 2009 at 16:15:11
layman
Audiophile

Posts: 71
Location: Washington, D.C.
Joined: August 8, 2007

I auditioned the two Spendor models on your list a year ago, but it appears that Spendor have upgraded these again by changing the tweeter in both models. The speakers now have the R2 designation. The original R models that I auditioned appeared to use the same tweeter as the previous "e" models (but I could be wrong).

Anyway, of the two (SP 3/1R & SP 2/3R), I preferred the SP 3/1R because it sounded a bit quicker and had more zest, presence and life than the SP 2/3R model. The SP 3/1R had the Spendor trademark freakishly realistic vocals, where you swear the singer has snuck into the room.

If you listen to primarily vocals, then these speakers might be ideal but they seemed a little too restrained, sedate and buttoned-up to really rock out.

I suspect that the new R2 models (with the new tweeter) will sound a bit faster and more "modern."

What, another model change?, posted on June 24, 2009 at 16:30:03
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 1548
Location: Phoenix
Joined: October 22, 2004
 First it's the /R now it's the /R2? Spendor doesn't change anything for years now I guess they're catching up!

I'd love to hear these R2 versions, but I don't even know if they're imported into the U.S. I remember talking to the last U.S. importer a few years ago. I was telling him how much I loved the classic series and he said, somewhat annoyed, 'Yeah, everybody loves them, but nobody BUYS them'.

RE: I Bought A Used Pair Of Spendor S 100's:, posted on June 26, 2009 at 11:54:45
Vinylly
 So people are buying them. And they still have that magic with the human voice. The voice is particularly a stand out with FM radio announcers.

my two cents, posted on June 24, 2009 at 14:49:07
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 1548
Location: Phoenix
Joined: October 22, 2004
 I've owned several Spendors and Harbeths, they are wonderful speakers. I'm particularly partial to the SHL5, but that's a pretty big (and expensive) speaker. If I had the room and five grand to kill, that's probably what I'd get.

For about a year now I've been listening to PMC TB2i's on Skylan stands. They are wonderful. Efficient, dynamic, neutral, loads of detail, great midrange and a high end that goes on forever with no hash. I like the size of them, too - big enough to have some bass and efficiency, but small enough to have a great big soundstage. They are loads of fun to listen to and very easy to live with.

If you don't have a local dealer call the folks at PMC USA. They are very nice to do business with.

RE: my two cents, posted on June 25, 2009 at 01:57:20
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 Hi,
While I can afford a SHL5 (used piece), your concern about the room size bugs me. Are you saying that they need very big rooms to work well ?
My room size is 180 sqft...do you think this speaker would sound too big in my room ?

RE: my two cents, posted on June 25, 2009 at 08:08:52
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 1548
Location: Phoenix
Joined: October 22, 2004
 I've had them in my house and they are physically big and put out a LOT of bass. What are your room dimensions?

PS: Don't forget the skylan stands!

RE: my two cents, posted on June 25, 2009 at 08:42:45
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 My room is 13.5ft X 13.5ft. I normally listen in a diagonal placement. Some speakers are just big and produce a big sound which is not suitable for a smallish room like mine. Some speakers are physically big but the sound is not all that massive so they can be used in small to medium rooms. Yes big bass is also a typical problem for average sized room like mine. Where does SHL5 stand in this regard ?

You might have a problem, posted on June 25, 2009 at 12:11:03
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 1548
Location: Phoenix
Joined: October 22, 2004
 13.5x13.5 is not that big and it's exactly square.

Seriously, if I were you I'd look hard at the new Harbeth P3ES. They'd be perfect for a room that size. If you want a sub get the little Totem Dreamcather for about eight hundred bucks - it's NOT big or loud and it doesn't shake the walls. But it puts a nice bottom end on an audiophile speaker.

Damn, that would be a good setup!

Harbeth P3ES on two-post Skylan stands with a Totem sub...WOW. They say the P3ES is a 'little 40.1'. If I was in the bucks I'D DO THIS MYSELF!!!

Why not the Compact 7es-3 ??, posted on June 26, 2009 at 02:51:05
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 Why do you prefer the P3 to Compact7 ? Have you heard them ? If yes, what is it that the P3 does better ?

RE: Why not the Compact 7es-3 ??, posted on June 26, 2009 at 08:13:10
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 1548
Location: Phoenix
Joined: October 22, 2004
 I had Compact 7 ES3's for awhile. And I preferred the Stirling LS3/5a V2 in my room. Yeah, I know, I'm crazy. But I really like the 'great big open soundstage' of the LS3/5a type speaker. And in the smallish room I was in they just sang better. My room is bigger than 13.5 square, btw.

Being fifteen hundred dollars cheaper doesn't hurt either!

What is it that the Compact 7 could not do ?, posted on June 28, 2009 at 21:57:46
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 could you please point out as to what is it that the Compact7es could not do that the P3 did or did better ? Are you saying that the 7es did not have a open soundstage like the P3 ?

RE: What is it that the Compact 7 could not do ?, posted on June 30, 2009 at 09:17:21
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 1548
Location: Phoenix
Joined: October 22, 2004
 Have you never heard an LS3/5a? Speakers that size (12" high by 7" wide - give or take) are renowned for their 'disappearing' act. Small box, no boxy sound. It's a huge soundstage. Some people really love that effect, I'm one of them.

Yes, an LS3/5a variant will have a larger soundstage than a standard 2/way with an 8" woofer in a medium sized box. But it will be less efficient, and have less bass and maximum volume. There's your trade-offs. In a smallish room, I think it's a good trade because you can't play that loud anyway and bass will overcome the room.

I had a Dynaudio Audience 52...., posted on July 1, 2009 at 04:59:38
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 which looks like the similar thing as you call LS3/5. Yes, they dissapeared easily in the room and generated a nice big coherent soundstage. Just that you lose on instrument weight.

I second the PMC. (nt), posted on June 24, 2009 at 18:07:47
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 2929
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 nt


reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
RE: Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality, posted on June 24, 2009 at 13:42:08
David Aiken
Audiophile

Posts: 5117
Location: Brisbane
Joined: September 25, 1999
 Well, I've got the Contour 1.3 SEs in a bigger room than yours and I think you may be underestimating what they're capable of.

If you have the freedom to place them anywhere in the room, go to the FAQ here and follow the instructions for the Audio Physic method. This will place them in the middle of the room with your listening position against the wall. I suspect the results, including increase in transparency, will surprise you and I don't think you're going to lose much bass in the process.

Then, if you can, try acoustically treating the room and prepare to be amazed even more at what bass trapping in the corners and some absorption at your first reflection points will produce.

The other thing that's important with the 1.3 SEs is amplifier power. I'd say you need a minimum of 150 watts/ch, preferably more, and an amp with a good hefty power supply. In some ways, the bigger the amp the better. I use a NAD M3 integrated with the volume control set to -24 dB or so most of the time so the power really is only being used for transient delivery. The end result is very transparent sound and their results with vocals are simply superb.

There are 2 areas of criticism of the results I get that may give you pause. The first is that the presentation is more front row than middle row, but it's not an aggressive presentation and I also suspect that any system change which gives you more transparency is also going to have a tendency to shift the perspective a little more forward than you're getting now. Secondly, a 2 way like the 1.3 SEs is never going to give you the best result with symphonic classical music or jazz big bands. It can do very well but you do need a bigger, more sensitive speaker than an 85 dB sensitive 2 way monitor to deliver those sorts of music most convincingly. The 1.3 SEs can do a very good job but those areas are where they're going to be at their weakest and if those sorts of music are your main fare, then I do think a speaker change would be the way to go.

So, depending on your ability to play with placement, provide some room treatment, and meet the 1.3 SEs amplification requirements you may have just what you need with the 1.3 SEs. Set up well in a small to medium sized room, they can surprise you even after many years of listening to them. I've had my pair for over 7 years now and they can still surprise me after improvements in the areas I've mentioned though I do think they probably work better in a larger room than yours.

If you can't meet the placement and amplification requirements, then a change of speaker is probably the way to go but placement is going to affect the transparency of any speaker you choose so I'd choose very carefully and make sure that any speaker I swapped to could deliver what I wanted in my room with the placement I intended using before I paid out any cash.



David Aiken
RE: Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality, posted on June 25, 2009 at 01:58:50
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 Hi David,
I know what the 1.3SE can do in a big room with quality amplificaion. While I do have the amplification, I dont have the room to experiment. Moreover I also want to take some break from Dynaudio sound!!

Harbeth M30's...Or?, posted on June 24, 2009 at 12:28:39
Bob Neill
Dealer

Posts: 1927
Location: New England
Joined: October 1, 1999
 Your parameters, as someone else has suggested, are sufficiently conflicting that I could imagine meeting some of them with the very transparent M30's or less absolutely transparent but more immediate and present Reynauds. I think you really do need to get out and listen. If you like your Dynaudios, I would lean toward Harbeths. Paul feels the M30's can't compete with the Compact 7's in the bass. I find the M30's bass tighter and cleaner but it is not as full. But either way, this does sound like a Harbeth Situation. Still...

US 1, Spain 0, halftime!

RE: Harbeth M30's...Or?, posted on June 25, 2009 at 02:00:54
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 Monitor 30 also seems to be a bit on the forward side...going by the reviews. What do you think.

No, posted on June 25, 2009 at 06:54:02
PabloP
Audiophile

Posts: 13472
Joined: January 23, 2001
 Not forward, but in comparison to other Brit speakers that have a dip or trough in the presence region of the frequency response, they might seem so. Take a look at the NRC measurements (click on the box in the review) published at soundstage.com. If you read the review, bear in mind that the listener liked them better after he rearranged them and pointed them at himself, which is what you should always do with these speakers anyway. Stand height is also important. Your ears need to be at the tweeter's height or a little bit lower, and the tweeter is pretty low in the M30 box, so that means a high stand (mine are on 28 inch stands).

The M30's are terrific in a small room. Mine are in a room just a little bit larger than yours. My C7's are in a large room (but they are pretty happy anywhere).

________

"Occasionally we list eccentrically, all sense of balance gone."
RE: Harbeth M30's...Or?, posted on June 25, 2009 at 06:33:17
Bob Neill
Dealer

Posts: 1927
Location: New England
Joined: October 1, 1999
 In a smallish room, it can be. In a normal room, not really, just flat. It's a monitor. The Compact 7 is generaly considered more room friendly but it just less speaker. Depends on what you want. At the time I had the M30's here, I considered them the best of their kind. I have moved on to other presenations but that's my issue, not Harbeth's. If your priorities are resolution and transparency, without either coloration or coolness, they may still be The Ones. In a small room, maybe the 7's but in a room where the speakers aren't too close to boundaries, a room in which the 7's can sound a tad boxy, I'd choose the 30's.

RE: Harbeth M30's...Or?, posted on June 25, 2009 at 06:45:00
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 Have you heard the Harbeth SHL5 ? I can get a used one within my budget but their size concerns me...do they sound all that big not to fit a room under 200sqft ?

RE: Harbeth M30's...Or?, posted on June 25, 2009 at 07:34:58
Bob Neill
Dealer

Posts: 1927
Location: New England
Joined: October 1, 1999
 I have not heard the 5's, sorry.

You want precise, extended bass - most of your ideas don't meet that, posted on June 24, 2009 at 11:56:38
keith_d
Audiophile

Posts: 939
Joined: June 15, 2002
 Which I'm sure you know.

I'd say VMPS monitors. The three way ones.

In most rooms "precise bass" requires parametric EQ and a lot of large bass traps, posted on June 25, 2009 at 07:50:31
Richard BassNut Greene
 In most rooms, there is no such thing as "precise bass" without the use of parametric EQ to eliminate all bass peaks under 80Hz. at the sweet spot listening position plus many bass traps to damp standing waves enough to reduce the standing wave troughs and damp quarter wavelength cancellations.

In most rooms without using those tools, the bass frequency response under 100Hz. will rarely be better than +6dB/-12dB when measured at the listening seat using a slow sinewave sweep which excites standing waves just like bass notes do (unlike pink noise or warble tones).

There is absolutely no full range monopole speaker at any price, even six figures, that can provide a flatter bass frequency response at a sweet spot listening position than a pair of $500 subwoofers and a $100 digital parametric EQ set for that sweet spot seat. In most rooms, no full range speaker used without EQ will even come close to accurately reproducing the bassline in th emusic.

In some rooms, dipole speakers can create a decent bassline if the listener has a lot of flexibility to move his seat and/or the speakers forwards or backwards. Dipole speakers provide more directional bass than monopole speakers, so they excite most room modes less than monopole speakers.

VPMS monitors may be the best speakers money can buy, but unless thsy included a built-in parametric EQ, or came with one dozen bass traps,
they, and all other monopole speakers, will not produce "precise" bass in most rooms (the bass from the speakers can be great, but unless your room is very large, like an auditorium or nightclub, room reflections will ruin the bass frequency response before it reaches your ears).
.
.
.
RE: In most rooms "precise bass" requires parametric EQ and a lot of large bass traps, posted on June 28, 2009 at 22:49:32
Robert C. Lang
Audiophile

Posts: 2492
Joined: March 1, 2001
 *****In most rooms without using those tools, the bass frequency response under 100Hz. will rarely be better than +6dB/-12dB when measured at the listening seat *****


*****but unless your room is very large, like an auditorium or nightclub, room reflections will ruin the bass frequency response before it reaches your ears). *****

Would it be accurate then, that 99% (or greater) of all listening rooms exhibit the anomalies in the bass region that you describe (will rarely be better than +6dB/-12dB) unless they are equalized and have bass traps? I'm not attempting to exaggerate your statements or put words in your mouth. It's that you frequently refer to "most rooms", which makes sense, albeit a very broad generalization. In this post you seem quite specific. I'm just trying to get clarification.


Robert C. Lang
RE: You want precise, extended bass - most of your ideas don't meet that, posted on June 25, 2009 at 05:24:13
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 Hi Keith,
You said "You want precise, extended bass - most of your ideas don't meet that"

I am still not sure what you meant by that...are you saying that the speakers I have shortlisted dont meet that ?

RE: You want precise, extended bass - most of your ideas don't meet that, posted on June 25, 2009 at 02:02:33
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 Could you please elaborate exactly what made you think that my ideas are conflicting ? Sincerely asking this!!

I will check out the VMPS as well...Thanks.

For the hard of hearing, posted on June 25, 2009 at 04:58:09
keith_d
Audiophile

Posts: 939
Joined: June 15, 2002
 That was someone else's phrase.

What I said was perfectly clear without amplification. You should be able to re read it.

RE: Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality, posted on June 24, 2009 at 11:50:21
gymwear5@hotmail.com
Manufacturer

Posts: 1218
Joined: April 10, 2002
 I very much like the ATC's but prefer their three way speaker like the scm100 or 150.. never buy blind...
RE: Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality, posted on June 25, 2009 at 02:06:01
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 Do you think they would spit out average recordings and would only accept good recordings ?

RE: Standmount speakers with a high degree of transparency and neutrality, posted on June 24, 2009 at 10:06:45
jazz1
Audiophile

Posts: 959
Joined: October 30, 2000
 You have to listen to the new ProAC D2, absolutely beautiful mids.

I like the Proac sound but.., posted on June 25, 2009 at 02:44:03
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 I am concerned about their rolled off treble!!!
I will still try to listen to the D2.

RE: I like the Proac sound but.., posted on June 26, 2009 at 23:01:59
jazz1
Audiophile

Posts: 959
Joined: October 30, 2000
 You will be doing yourself a favor, the new D2 are something else.
I read a report of John Atkinson of the Montreal Audio show where he thought that the D2 had one of the best sound on show.
For me what makes it is the magical midrange, it is just so inviting and seducing. But you need good electronics.

Harbeth's Compact 7 is fine with rock, posted on June 24, 2009 at 09:45:03
PabloP
Audiophile

Posts: 13472
Joined: January 23, 2001
 The kind of music you play, "Classic Rock, Country, Bluegrass, Acoustic Blues and some occassional Pop," is similar to what I've been playing through Harbeth Compact 7's for over 10 years. (Add some zydeco, cajun, Tex-Mex and what I call SoCal geezer rock for lack of a better name (Ry Cooder, David Lindley, John Hiatt)). The new Compact 7ES3 is supposed to be an improvement. That's what I'd get.

Some Harbeths don't do as well with rock, such as the Monitor 30, which can seem a little plodding in the bass by comparison to the C7, but the Compact 7 is fine for your purposes.

I bought my Compact 7's from a dealer in the UK because there were no dealers or distributors in the US at the time. Hadn't heard them, only had the early RE Greene review in TAS to go on along with my impressions of the build quaity of the tiny P3 minispeakers made by Harbeth. I still have them.

________

"Occasionally we list eccentrically, all sense of balance gone."
I agree, however..., posted on June 24, 2009 at 16:32:16
bullethead
Audiophile

Posts: 335
Location: New York
Joined: June 15, 2009
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2009
 Harbeth has its own sound (perhaps called the BBC flavour). It sounds nothing like almost every other speaker out there. I have the Harbeth Compact 7ES-3 in my system and it sounds wonderful with rock, and even heavy metal which I occasionally listen to.

Is that Harbeth sound neutral or transparent? I have no clue.

Do Harbeths have a rolled off treble ?, posted on June 25, 2009 at 02:10:35
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 In general lot of manufacturers use this technique of making the speaker sound warm and musical by rolling off the highs (Proac comes to my mind)....Do you see similar behaviour in Harbeth ? I would hope its not the case because its a monitor grade speaker...but your opinions are important.

...rolled off treble, posted on June 25, 2009 at 08:23:36
mls-stl
Audiophile

Posts: 1628
Location: St. Louis
Joined: April 11, 2006
 >> In general lot of manufacturers use this technique of making the speaker sound warm and musical by rolling off the highs

I hear this statement made a lot and would like to offer the following alternative opinion.

Question - what is the reference point for deciding if something is "rolled off" in the highs?

If you are talking about reproducing the sound of live acoustic instruments, I think you'll find the Spendors and Harbeths extremely accurate. By comparison some other speakers sound unnaturally bright or even edgy when reproducing acoustic instruments.

If one is talking amplified music or the heavily "processed" music that is often put out these days, there isn't a real life reference point to start with. At that point it simply becomes a matter of what one "thinks" a recording "should" sound like. And for some people that means some extra sizzle on the top end.

Don't get the idea that I am belittling that style of music as I like much of it and have a substantial amount of pop and rock in my collection along with classical and jazz. However, when I listen to a speaker my primary reference for judging quality it how close it sounds to acoustic instruments (including voice) that could be played in my own room. If it does that well I find it pretty much works for all other types of music.

For me, the speaker I am very happily living with is the Spendor SP1/2E.

RE: ...rolled off treble, posted on June 29, 2009 at 15:49:44
Bob Neill
Dealer

Posts: 1927
Location: New England
Joined: October 1, 1999
 Part of what this is about is that in 'live' situations treble begins to roll off fairly dramtically as soo as the sound leaves the stage. So recordings that are miked close up and reproduced flat don't really give you what you're accustomed to hearing. Whether that is why very subtlely rolled off highs on some speakers make them sound more natural, pleasing, or realistic is the question. And we are back to the old accuracy to performance vs. accuracy to source question.

RE: ...rolled off treble, posted on June 29, 2009 at 19:48:10
mls-stl
Audiophile

Posts: 1628
Location: St. Louis
Joined: April 11, 2006
 >> Part of what this is about is that in 'live' situations treble begins
>> to roll off fairly dramtically as soo as the sound leaves the stage.

That is true if you are talking about live classical music played in a large hall.

However, there are many types of music that can be and are played in very small venues and even in homes. When I play my steel string acoustic guitar in my living room I don't think there is too much in the way of high frequency roll-off involved!

While even folk, bluegrass and solo or small group jazz / classical can be miked too closely, there are a number of good recordings available of that kind of music that could be played live in a person's home. While live acoustic music is my overall reference, I will never find a live orchestra in my listening room at home. Two guys with guitars, though, yes, it's been done. So my highest personal reference point is the sound of acoustic instruments that could actually be played in my room.

In that situation, with a good recording, accuracy to the source and accuracy to the performance are the same thing.

It is interesting to hear some audiophile speakers that have a bright edge to them that you wouldn't hear if it was a live performer sitting across from you. That is the thing I like best about my Spendors, they just have a naturalness to them under those circumstances that I find quite engaging. I know others listen for different things in different ways, hence the endless debates over the myriad of products available.

Not at all, posted on June 25, 2009 at 06:45:44
PabloP
Audiophile

Posts: 13472
Joined: January 23, 2001
 The huge Monitor 40 is the only Harbeth whose frequency response declines in the treble.

________

"Occasionally we list eccentrically, all sense of balance gone."
Neutral, uncolored, posted on June 24, 2009 at 17:07:59
PabloP
Audiophile

Posts: 13472
Joined: January 23, 2001
 Or 'uncoloured" as they say in Harbethland. I have three different Harbeth mid-size speakers, all with the 8 inch RADIAL midwoofer, and they all sound more like each other than like any other speakers. With a digital equalizer, I imagine you could set them up so that you couldn't tell them apart. So, many people say that the RADIAL midwoofer is the reason for the characteristic Harbeth sound. Otoh, though they were different, being smaller and not as full sounding, the old P3's that I had were clearly part of the same family, even though they had a 4 inch polypop mid-woofer, and being smaller with a stiffer cabinet, also less of the thin walled lossy box warmth. So I think it has something to do with the designer's ear. He listens to them while tuning the crossover. Happily, he apparently hears real life the same way I do.

________

"Occasionally we list eccentrically, all sense of balance gone."
RE: I agree, however..., posted on June 24, 2009 at 16:47:42
jimdgoulding@yahoo.com
Manufacturer

Posts: 288
Location: Le workshop
Joined: May 24, 2007
 Alan Shaw said in an interview in the June/July issue of TAS that there is an elevation given to the presence range of the Compact 7 which might account for that.

Just the opposite, posted on June 24, 2009 at 16:55:29
PabloP
Audiophile

Posts: 13472
Joined: January 23, 2001
 I don't have any idea of what he was quoted as saying, but the C7 has a trough in the presence range, which gives a little more distant perspective compared to a completely flat response across that range. The C7 is elevated a bit in the mid-bass and again in the treble, in the classic British monitor style, and this acts as sort of a built-in loudness contour so you don't have to play them really loud to get a full sound and plenty of detail. But that isn't what makes them unusual.

Or maybe he was saying that the new ES3 has an elevated response in the presence region compared to the older C7. That could be, but I'm sure it still isn't elevated from flat. That would be so inconsistent with what he's always done, he would have to have undergone some sort of mental breakdown.

________

"Occasionally we list eccentrically, all sense of balance gone."
RE: Just the opposite, posted on June 24, 2009 at 17:01:22
jimdgoulding@yahoo.com
Manufacturer

Posts: 288
Location: Le workshop
Joined: May 24, 2007
 Apologies Pablo, all, I'll take better care going forward. It was in reference to the P3, not the Compact 7.

I've heard rock on both the Spendor and Harbeth..., posted on June 24, 2009 at 09:37:41
clio09
Audiophile

Posts: 1028
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Joined: January 29, 2006
 and prefer the Spendor. The 2/3R would be preferable over the 3/1R. Now if you could stretch it financially, the 1/2R is not that much bigger in size than the 2/3R (just about 4" taller with nearly same width and depth) and it would provide you with a lot more of what you're looking for sound wise.

If you can buy used, the Spendor 1/2e speakers are bargains right now. I owned mine for several years and got a lot of mileage out of them.

RE: I've heard rock on both the Spendor and Harbeth..., posted on June 25, 2009 at 02:36:59
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 Well, looking at the size of 1/2e, it doesnt look like I would need a sub and moreover I am not a bass freak. As long as I get a balanced sound and a well defined full bass, it works for me.

But I am concerned about the size of the LF driver on it...8" driver looks scary big and may sound over-powering in my 180 sqft room....I am not sure..would need your inputs.

Another thing is..1/2e is a very old model and I see them going for less than $1500 in the used market, I am only wondering if they would still sound as transparent and detailed as todays top quality speakers...I mean things are evolving and I would normally assume that todays speakers would have more refinement and transparency than yesteryear speakers of the same pedigree...please comment. I would not want to make a side wise upgrade at this point just because I am getting a speaker cheap.

RE: I've heard rock on both the Spendor and Harbeth..., posted on June 25, 2009 at 09:55:56
tpcarter
Audiophile

Posts: 900
Location: California - Bay Area
Joined: May 7, 2002
 Plinius,

The reason I suggested a sub is not to supplement the bass, but rather to bring a more 3D soundstage and even more exciting realism to the sound. (While subs CAN be used to boost the bass, I think the 'best practice' is to install them so that you actually don't hear increased bass.)

As to the SP1/2e versus the SP1/2R, I can't say, either. BUT it just could be that the SP1/2e actually has the qualities you seek ... regardless of its age. [I wish I could hear the R's, however. I'm curious as all get out.]

All my best,

Tom

RE: I've heard rock on both the Spendor and Harbeth..., posted on June 25, 2009 at 07:09:39
clio09
Audiophile

Posts: 1028
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Joined: January 29, 2006
 I used the 1/2e in a 150sq.ft. room with no issues. So I think you'll be fine in your room.

As for age, I wouldn't worry too much about that either. Spendor has always maintained a consistency in sound. I doubt the newer models are that much better. Perhaps different and upgraded parts, but the overall sound is not going to change IMO.

As for comparing the 1/2e to some of today's speakers I can't really comment. I realize you don't want to go sideways in your decision, but you could do a lot worse than a 1/2e. Of course if age is a deciding factor for then you could get the 1/2R which is a little over your budget at list price, but in this market you should be able to get enough of a discount to bring it back in range.

RE: I've heard rock on both the Spendor and Harbeth..., posted on June 24, 2009 at 21:58:30
tpcarter
Audiophile

Posts: 900
Location: California - Bay Area
Joined: May 7, 2002
 I've owned and done many hours of comparisons between Spendor SP1/2e's and Harbeth Compact 7's. Suffice it to say that the Spendors were MUCH more to my liking. To my ears they are more musical, more accurate timbrally (in depth and weight of music, especially, not just the 'outlines' of music -- ie, they're 3D and I found the Harbeth 2D) ... and they do all styles of music really well. And yes, they match up really well with all that you're looking for. And if you can add a REL Strata III or similar sub (Spendor makes one, too), you've got even more magic. Haven't heard the R series, but I agree with clio09 about buying the SP1/2e's used ... and if that helps you afford a subwoofer, all the better. [BTW, I've read that the Harbeth HL5's are a better comparison to the SP1/2e's, so my a/b between the C7's and SP1/2e's might not be a 'fair fight.']

All my best,

Tom

Budget? [nt], posted on June 24, 2009 at 09:36:17
chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com
Reviewer

Posts: 10208
Location: Lancashire.
Joined: January 21, 2001
 nt
Today is a gift - that's why it's called the Present.

Best Regards,
Chris Redmond.
4000 USD, posted on June 24, 2009 at 11:27:34
Plinius_Fan
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Joined: August 4, 2006
 4000 USD is the budget i am looking at.

Merlin TSM-MXe - look no further! (nt), posted on June 24, 2009 at 09:26:27
DKL
Audiophile

Posts: 531
Location: Orlando, FL
Joined: November 20, 2001
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