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Avalon Speakers

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Posted on June 17, 2007 at 17:06:40
seacard


 
Avalon makes some of my favorite speakers. I love their musicality, smoothness, soundstaging, imaging, etc. But I miss a little bit of the bass, and some of the dynamics that other speakers offer. Is there something with all the benfits of Avalon, but with a little more dynamic range and bass response?

 

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RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 17, 2007 at 22:08:11
George Mann


 
The Isis, Osiris and Sentinel will give you what you seek if you can afford them.

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 17, 2007 at 22:35:25
seacard


 
The Isis is amazing; the best speaker I've ever heard. Alas, out of my price range. I'd like to stick in the $20,000 range. Considering building a Linkwitz Orion, which should give me a nice dynamic sound and great soundstage, but would be giving up something in imaging and would not get anything extra in bass. But you're right; I'm looking for a $20,000 Isis.

Anyone know anything about the Indra? What drivers does it use?

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 18, 2007 at 05:24:07
czapp
Audiophile

Posts: 16
Joined: June 30, 2002
 I agree with you about the Avalon's. Magical mid-range, and imaging, but really lacking in bass.I'd look into any of the Marten Design speakers. They have the transparency and musicality of the Avalons, with far superior bass definition and slam.

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 18, 2007 at 06:40:24
seacard


 
Marten (and Kharma) were both on the final list, along with Avalon, but the Marten and the Kharma are a bit pricy. I actually liked the Kharma a little better at the $20K range, but not as much as the Avalon. The Midi Grand and the Coltrane are great, but at $50,000 way too expensive. I am still considering Audio Physics speakers -- haven't heard them yet. Any thoughts on how those compare to the Avalons?

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 18, 2007 at 12:05:10
George Mann


 
I know nothing specific about the Indra at this point.

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 18, 2007 at 12:54:16
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 I will play lone dissenter ... having heard most of the line in various set ups, the only Avalon speaker I really liked are their two-way recording monitors, which we used for live DSD recordings.

The balance tend towards this etched audiophile presentation, also claiming the Karmas in most applications ... very detailed, but not much viscera. And as to your complaint, very dry and over damped bass.

And yes, I heard them in kilobuck installations.

Twenty thousand is a lot of money ... take your time and really look around. It is shocking how much difference there is among speakers, and how seldomly price tells the whole story.

The Good Doctor.

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 18, 2007 at 14:09:08
Quint
Dealer

Posts: 3657
Joined: June 21, 2003
 That's been my experience as well, and I've heard most of their top offerings, including the Eidolon Diamond, Isis, and Sentinel. IMO, they do the hi-fi thing very well—much like Kharmas, which I've owned—but I find them ultimately wanting in the slam and music-making departments.

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 18, 2007 at 14:22:02
seacard


 
Dr. S and Quint,

Would you guys mind making a recommendation for your favorite speaker that I can get at or below $10,000 used (or new, of course)?

Just to let you know, my room is fairly small (17x15x8) and I listen mainly to classical (90%) and jazz (9%).

 

For significantly less than that ..., posted on June 18, 2007 at 16:16:25
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 ... you can get a pair of the VMPS RM-30's in Rosewood, with all the trimmings (all of the extra cost extras).

Since the sub is powered, you get a lot more options for amplfication. The VMPS towers are modest in size, and with the lens and external crossovers you get a huge amount of user-adjustment to match your room up. Never take for granted being able to do some shaping of your speakers tto integrate them into your room ... it's a great feature and too seldomly made available.

I have been using a stock pair for months in my main system for review, and just bought them for myself. When I take receipt of my SOTA Jena Labs four column units, I will put the RM-30's in my home theater system.

With the lens removed, in the near field (which is what you are going to have to do in your room), I get a huge depth of field and spooky surround placement of two channel. They do like some room behind them, if possible.

My room gets frequented by some of the most jaded and cynical audiophiles there are, and no one has complained about the RM-30-'s even though they are the ONLY sub-ten thousand dollar speaker I have had in my main system since my long ago Mirage, M-1's.

I was listening to them last night with a DSD recorder, live to DSD master recording of Beet's Nine, just done by Jennifer Crock, with her modified Decca Tree and the Tascam DSD recorder. Shockingly natural recording and all of that detail was rendered quite faithfully by the VMPS's ... after all, she should know, she made the recording.

The Good Doctor

 

Based on your posts..., posted on June 18, 2007 at 19:42:16
Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 6984
Joined: August 1, 2001
 ... and what little I know about the new Indra, I would not purchase another speaker before auditioning them. They may give you exactly what you are looking for at the price range you are looking in.

Good luck in your quest for good sound.

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 19, 2007 at 04:03:52
Quint
Dealer

Posts: 3657
Joined: June 21, 2003
 I’m not really sure how it’ll interact with a smallish room, but I think you should try and audition the Quad 2905. It’s a whisker above your price limit, but for your musical tastes, it’s a nice choice. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend it for rock and pop, but for jazz and most classical, it’s a really good option. I was never a huge Quad fan, but after hearing the 2905s, my mind has changed a bit. Good luck!

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 19, 2007 at 09:29:52
George Mann


 
The main problem is the Avalon's are extremely accurate and realistic sounding speakers, and when most people seek "audiophile" sound from them, they are disappointed.

They also require a lot from an amplifier to "come alive".

I and others I know use Accuphase amp's exclusively to power them. Being the best sonic match, these amp's are the only one's we have found to work with them properly across the board. But the above still stands.

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 19, 2007 at 10:27:23
Quint
Dealer

Posts: 3657
Joined: June 21, 2003
 Never heard an Avalon paired with Accuphase. Two of the times I heard them, they were mated to Pass amps, and the results honestly didn't do much for me. And, yes, they do require serious juice to open up. That's for sure.

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 19, 2007 at 14:43:54
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 I have heard various models in some terrific rooms, with both large SS and Tubes, same conclusion, regardless of venue and ancillaries.

In particular I found the diamond Eidelons to suck the life out of a recording better than about anything else I have heard, except for maybe the big Linns.

You want to know about Avalons, plunk some rock or pop down on them. Draw your own conclusions.

The Good Doctor

 

Beg to differ, posted on June 19, 2007 at 16:51:48
Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 6984
Joined: August 1, 2001
 << In particular I found the diamond Eidelons to suck the life out of a recording better than about anything else I have heard >>

Many people make the same mistake that you have. While the Eidolon Diamonds are not perfect (no speaker is), what you heard was the result of the electronics and not the speakers. That much I can guarantee you.

All I have to do is give one counter-example to prove your blanket statement wrong. Ask anybody that went to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fair two years ago. Audio Unlimited had a pair of Eidolon Diamonds set up with all BAT electronics. That was without question one of the top 3 sounds at the show. It was anything *but* "lifeless".

There are so many internet "experts" who really have no idea what they are talking about...

 

RE: Your Assumptions and Experts, posted on June 20, 2007 at 08:24:45
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 Well, OK, you want to go that direction, so be it.

First of all, one of the systems I heard AT LENGTH, was an all BAT (VK-51-SE, and VK-1000’s) system driving the Eidelons, because the engineer of the recording company I was partners in used it to review recordings of pure live to DSD recordings ... so, imagine the Genex DSD recorder, directly driving this system from the hard drive.

I spent hours listening to recordings made live in my presence. What better reference that that? I was there for the performance. I was there for the recording. I was there for the playback, and the electronics were the same brand I use in my reference system (BAT).

Secondly, I have heard multiple Avalon systems with all variety of high-end electronics in rooms that cost more than most people's houses. Again, the same reaction.

You may disagree with my observations, that is fine and to be expected. This is a forum about opinions … but to state categorically that I am inexpert because of them is absurd and insulting.

Unlike many of the reviewers extant, I was a professional musician for most of my life, (I started playing for money at fourteen) and worked both sides of the recording process from the time of open reel and direct-to-disc recordings, to the near present.

From professional rock bands and musical theater, to band, orchestras, choirs, all-state, all-Northwest … you name it. I have been an audiophile since birth, and I have been reviewing for over a decade.

Other than agreeing with your opinions, what … precisely, do I lack in having sufficient basis from which to render a cogent opinion?

The Good (if slightly annoyed) Doctor.

 

RE: Your Assumptions and Experts, posted on June 20, 2007 at 09:32:35
Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 6984
Joined: August 1, 2001
 << but to state categorically that I am inexpert because of [my observations] is absurd and insulting. >>

That may be so, but certainly no more absurd and insulting to "state categorically" that the Eidolon Diamonds sucks the life out of the music better than any other speaker you've ever heard.

I have no doubt that you heard what you heard and described it accurately. But you failed to perform any rigorous testing that would allow you to pinpoint the cause of the problem.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match of your "credentials" versus my "credentials".

But I will say that, in general, the Avalons do tend to have a less "dynamic" presentation than many other speakers. And they have a more "dynamic" presentation than other speakers. But how do you know which is correct? Do some other speakers sound more dynamic because they are non-linear and adding distortion? Or is there something in the Avalons that somehow limits the dynamics? And how would one go about determining which is the case?

Regardless of the real answer (which I don't think you have uncovered), to make an extreme statement like you did indicates at least some lack of expertise. That's my opinion, and YMMV.

 

RE: Opinions, posted on June 20, 2007 at 09:43:40
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 What I stated was and is my opinion. You don't agree, fine. I did not insult you personally because you disagree.

What more controlled situation than monitoring the high def recording I participated in making? And this was just ONE experience.

I would say this is more rigor than most go to in forming an opinion.

I did not dissect their performance ... frankly I am so underwhelmed with what I hear, there is little motivation to do so.

You like em? Fine, you like em. I don't.

The big difference is that I don't attack you personally because of our differences in opinion.

Are you a big enough man to stand up to that?

The Good Doctor.

 

RE: Opinions, posted on June 20, 2007 at 11:30:41
Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 6984
Joined: August 1, 2001
 << What more controlled situation than monitoring the high def recording I participated in making? >>

There is absolutely nothing "controlled" about this experiment. You observed (accurately, I have no doubt) that the reproduced sound was "lifeless" compared to the original performance. But the question remains, "What was responsible for this change in sound?" This list of possibilities is virtually endless:

The recording studio could have been overdamped.
The microphones.
The microphone cables.
The microphone preamp.
The mixing console.
The A/D converter (assuming it was a digital recording).
The D/A converter.
The playback console.
The interconnect cables.
The power amplifier.
The speaker cables.
The speakers.
The monitoring room could have been overdamped.

For some reason (presumably based on your previous experiences with Avalon speakers), you decided that the culprit was the speakers. The first step in verifying this would have been to try a different set of speakers. That would have been very helpful, but still not definitive.

For example, let's say that substituting your Piega speakers (which I've never heard, but had excellent measured performance in Stereophile's review) into that system restored the "life" to the sound. One still wouldn't know whether the Avalons were accurately reporting the fact that some *other* component in the signal chain was actually the problem, and that the Piegas were compensating for that problem (by adding too much of something else). Or whether in fact the Avalons were in fact the source of the problem.

These things are not easy to track down and it therefore becomes hard to make definitive statements.

At the same time, it is hard for me to reconcile your experiences with both my personal experiences and those of others whom I respect. For example, please read Roy Gregory's review in Hi-Fi+ (linked below). There is absolutely nothing there that would lead me to believe that the Eidolon Diamond "sucks the life" out of the music...

 

RE: last comment from me, posted on June 20, 2007 at 12:51:08
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 No mixing console, direct to DSD, recording input levels not TOUCHED afte recording began. No more than fifty foot of mic cord, Mike Grace microphone preamplifiers, Cardas and Jena Labs cabling, BAT six channel amp, EMM labs switchman pre, Avalon monitors


playback

Original Genex recorder, BAT VK-51-SE pre, VK-1000's amplifier, Cardas and Jena Labs cable, Diamond Eidolons.

I would say that is pretty damned controlled ... and who says it has to be controlled for me to have an opinion?

Of course people like Avalon ... and they like all sorts of speakers YOU don't like. So what.

Reviewers not agreeing? CALL THE WHITE HOUSE! lol.

In my opinion, as I stated, they suck the living musical essence from recordings. You don't like this opinion. Noted.

However, no where in this did I insult you personally. You like em? Fine with me. Why should I care what you do or do not like?

Insulting me personnally just makes you just another drive by cretin.

The Good Doctor

 

RE: LOL, now I get it, posted on June 20, 2007 at 13:15:19
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 ... I just read the thread below, lol, you have a dog in this fight...

Doesn't change my opinion of the speaker, but I do understand your ruffled feathers.

Too funny

 

RE: Opinions, posted on June 20, 2007 at 13:21:36
YRS


 
While I have no reason to doubt anyone's "opinion",the conversation is both interesting,and not uncommon in this hobby.A hobby I have been active in for around thirty five years.
I completely understand both the good DR and Mr Hanson.Respectfully!My own experience is obviously left to scrutiny,but quite interesting,at least to me.
To start,everyone has their own sense of how/what they get from a musical event.Whether live or recorded.Also we all, at least, make a good effort to get as close to what we "like" in our own set-ups.This can be accomplished with good in room acoustics,as well as good equipment voicing.Having some really good software(another area open to debate)doesn't hurt.
Even when I have attended live performances of the NY Philharmonic,my own personal perceptions of what I was "experiencing",from an acoustics standpoint,and how it affected my reaction to the actual live musical event,differed GREATLY from other members of my little audio group,all present!We ALL have our own "take" on these personal things.Like food,or beauty.Nobody is right,or wrong, here.
My personal audio history involves numerous audio toys,from big Infinity speakers/tube driven to my current highly modded "mostly" SS set-up,except for tube phonostage.
Being that MR Hanson designed my speakers,I have chosen to chime in,and sorry for my length.I hope my point is not diluted with my own ego.........I own the "still" vibrantly stunning(sorry,but my own taste)and still amazing Avalon Ascent mk II's!A completely different design from the new crop,under new ownership(and market strategy)of Avalon speakers,which I like.I did hear,at length,the Eidolons,and decided to underpin my own sealed enclosure design(sealed for good reason,IMO)with a superb sub bass system,to give just a hint of additional dynamics,and depth(not a weakness here,for many,and easily affected with new sub system technology).This took light-years to accomplish properly,but with wonderful results.I actually found that I had to simply "tickle" the lowest octave,for my desired result.Why it took me so long to do this is a mystery.Must have been my previous experiences with the ultra dynamic Infinity speakers,I owned.More "dynamic" and way less enjoyable than my "classic" Ascents!!
The original manual,with the Ascents, was DEAD ON ACCURATE,and absolutely mandatory reading(actually to anyone interested in this hobby) in describing how I was to appreciate the speakers, as time passed,for their own unique(especially with todays top componentry)presentation!!They easily compete,and surpass,IMO,some of the most highly regarded speakers around today,regardless of price.Unless,of course you have a HUGE room,and throw many MTV RAP music parties!I have numerous hobbyist pals who don't argue this anymore(they did at first)but it took years,sadly,to get to this level,including a dedicated room.I am THRILLED that I did not give up,and new speaker pricing had little to do with it.I knew there was "something there",to be had.Even the great DR Gindi(who talked me into my own pair),and MR Scull gave up(too soon).
My actual point is not to spout ego driven accolades,about what I have a vested interest in,but each listener has a unique take on a musical event,and how much time we take to "get something right"(to us)can be very time consuming.YES many variables can effect ultimate performance,and most would not go very long,before moving in another direction.I am glad I did not!!
I,personally,never liked the big "dynamic" sound of many highly regarded designs,like Wilson,for example.I know many who don't agree with me.Yet my own speaker combination gives me exactly what I want from my numerous Mercury,Decca,EMI's etc!
I doubt many hobbyists would have held out,and stayed with a speaker,like the fabulous Ascents,with the big market effort by these manufacturers,and the constant sweep of todays reviewers.I was at a dealer's home,just after the Kharma 3.2's were "raved" about in a major magazine.He sold 19 pairs,over the phone,without audition!!
I went home still flabergasted with the heirloom "lasting" performance of the Ascents,in my own dedicated room.The "something" they communicated to me,still existed.Even after completely loving the wonderful 3.2's!For their own unique perspective.
I truly wonder if you have heard your original design lately,with the best of todays componentry(line regeneration,a MUST,with these speakers,btw)Charlie?They can "rock" or do classical,with the best of them (within reason, and eardrum health,actually)!Also,I still have not heard a design that images this well,which may not be a priority of the "big dynamic" crowd,but it IS to me.Especially when a design like this holds up to such an amazing level.No wonder you see so few on the used market.
My friend has just ordered the Magico Mini's which also have some dynamic limitation,and I guess won't satisfy those living in palatial estates,with gymnasium sized rooms.They sound really good to me,but even they cannot touch the Ascents in the imaging department,and they can image great.
BTW...Sorry for the rant!

 

RE: Opinions, posted on June 20, 2007 at 13:32:47
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 You make a strong case for your own, personaly, alleatoric journey, and good for you. And I particularly appreciate you made it without insulting people who see the world differently.

You correct that this "discussion" takes place often in this hobby, and as it should be. My original objection stands.

I have heard the speakers under all sorts of conditions, and I don't care for them. It is possible this does not mean there is fault with them, or with me ... it is the match were magic fails to ignite.

The fact that I feel the same way about a number of other well-known speaker lines is neither an indictment of their owners, nor of me.

Assuming nothing was broken, this is about subjective reality and taste.

My reality and my tastes are my own; they are not damaged simply because they are not universally shared.

I have an old friend who insists the best stereo he ever heard me have was a Sansui/JBL-166 system I used in college, because it was LOUD and hard to break. I think he has brain damage, he thinks I have been wasting my time and money ...

Want to set up a controlled experiment to see who is correct? ;-)

The Good Doctor

 

RE: Opinions, posted on June 20, 2007 at 17:28:28
Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 6984
Joined: August 1, 2001
 Yes, of course everyone has an opinion about just about everything.

<< I particularly appreciate you made it without insulting people who see the world differently. >>

You seem to feel insulted that I branded you an "internet expert". And somehow you can't understand that the blanket statement you made was far more insulting. Insulting to the people that own those speakers, insulting to the people that sell those speakers, insulting to the people that give those speakers good reviews, insulting to people who use them at trade shows, et cetera.

Basically you thumbed your nose at all of us and (in essence) said, "you are idiots -- those speakers suck -- anybody with any brains knows that". And what I am telling you is that your statement was based on a limited experience. There are really only three possibilities:

a) You are right, the speakers suck and those of us who like them are idiots.

b) You are an idiot, the speakers are wonderful and you just like unnatural colorations.

c) You have heard those speakers in bad systems, I have heard those speakers in good systems.

I think that (c) is the most likely answer. I am confident that if I heard the systems you have heard I would agree with your assessment, and am equally confident that if you had heard the systems I have heard that you would agree with my assessment.

The bottom line is that it is *not* the speakers themselves that are to blame. And that is where I think you made your mistake by making such a blanket statement that the Eidolon Diamonds suck.

I have been designing and manufacturing nearly every type of stereo component for over 20 years now. One thing I have found is that the speaker is the hardest thing to make that will please everybody.

This is not a matter of taste, but rather a fundamental rule of music reproduction. In other words, if you take a great source component and put it into *any* stereo system, it will inevitably improve the sound of the system. But as you go further down the chain, things get trickier. By the time you get to the speaker, things are very tricky indeed.

If you put a great loudspeaker into just any old stereo system, you may or may not like the result. The problem is that the speaker will have enough resolution to tell you things about your system that you may not want to hear.

And I have enough experience with these matters to be confident that is what happened when you found the Eidolon Diamonds to be "lifeless". I could be wrong, but opinion that is based on decades of careful experimentation and listening. If you want to take that as an insult, go ahead.

 

RE: LOL, now I get it, posted on June 20, 2007 at 17:36:34
Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 6984
Joined: August 1, 2001
 << you have a dog in this fight >>

Not really. It is true that I founded Avalon and was the original designer there. But I sold my interest in the company over 15 years ago. The Eidolon Diamond was the first Avalon that I even liked since I left.

And I still like it. I would without question rank it in the top 10 speakers of all time. And I have heard it in many systems where it sounded anything but "lifeless".

But unlike you, I can put things into context. There are many speakers that I don't particularly care for, but have heard them sound good in the context of a particular system. But to you, it seems that the Eidolon Diamond is without question one of the worst speakers of all time since it "sucks the life" out of the music, presumably with every system, in every listening room, in every situation, and with every type of music.

It is that kind of blanket statement that has me brand you an "internet expert". It also has me take everything you else you may say with a huge dose of salt. And if you feel insulted by my reaction, so be it.

 

I still don't get it, posted on June 20, 2007 at 17:49:53
Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 6984
Joined: August 1, 2001
 You listed all of the components in the recording chain and the playback chain. I have no doubt that you heard sound that was "lifeless" compared to the original performance.

But what exactly is it that makes you attribute this deficit to the Eidolon Diamonds (and by implication that every other part of the chain was faultless)?

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 21, 2007 at 02:14:21
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9321
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 "They also require a lot from an amplifier to "come alive"."

This, George, is a fundamental flaw in this particular line of speakers. A speaker that needs a lot of amp to come alive is not good at delivering low level information that makes music alive or sound like live.

I too have heard these speaker a number of times and always come away with the same conclusion, clean but lacking in life, which is the essentially a lacking in microdynamics. You will not convince me that Accuphase is so much superior to the Pass labs amps that were hooked up to make such a difference.

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 21, 2007 at 02:15:57
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9321
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 "In particular I found the diamond Eidelons to suck the life out of a recording better than about anything else I have heard"

Well spoken Dr. S and I have reached the same conclusions about these speakers. I felt very DISconnected from the music when listening to them.

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 21, 2007 at 02:41:10
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9321
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I will chime in anyway, hope you don't mind.

Top 3 speakers for under $10K used.

1) Apogee Diva
2) Von Schweikert VR6
3) Thiel CS3.6

 

RE: LOL, now I get it, posted on June 21, 2007 at 05:41:01
Chagall
Audiophile

Posts: 7
Joined: February 7, 2005
 Dr.S, having spent a great deal of time in the music industry, and unlike virtually all of my peers, having worn ear protection the entire time, I have to wonder the following:

If you have indeed been in "professional rock bands" and in various bands/studios since the age of fourteen, to what extent is your opinion of the Eidilon flavored by hearing loss? I have to presume that your hearing has taken a few "blows" over the years and probably exhibits some high frequency loss and maybe some tinnitus. Maybe only an agressive studio monitor sounds "normal" to you now. Sadly, most of the professional musicians I know would be the last people I would want making a formal review of a speaker system. At least those involved with amplified music.

I am also amused at your blather about the Eidilons sucking the life out of the "live" recording when your own comments indicate you were sitting in a sound-proof mixing booth listening to said "live event" through a pair of Avalon monitors and the studio's audio chain. This is hardly a live event, as you describe, that is unless you were babysitting the musicians in the same room and they were playing acoustic instruments only.

While I agree that Avalon Eidilon's are a little less dynamic than say Kharma exquisites, due to their higher-order crossovers and driver differences, I would never characterize them as dynamically challenged or lifeless. Certainly not in the same vein as a modiferi/infinite slope-type speaker stuffed full of inductors. Accuton-based speakers can sound breathtakingly realistic and transparent when combined with the right crossover and high quality components.

 

RE: I said, posted on June 21, 2007 at 08:31:34
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 in my experience, it sucks the life out of recordings ... I stand by that description, as to your opinion of me, from your churlish behavior in this context, I couldn't care less.

There are regular posters here, whose equipment is routinely taken to task by various posters ... for some instruction on how it is handled with class, watch people like Victor Khomenko of BAT.

The Good Doctor

 

RE: To clarify, posted on June 21, 2007 at 08:47:08
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 Ok, since we appear to be taking this further, let us take it further.

I wore plugs early on, for the simple reason that the guy I was most often paired up with liked guitar sounds that were painful for me. Last time I was tested, my hearing was age-normal. I did have a very slight notch from someone firing a pistol too close.

As to monitors, well those varied considerably. To characterize them all with one sweep tells me a bit about your experience, or lack thereof.

Since musicians are not qualified listeners to you, who would be? Oh, I know, the people who agree with you. Geez, I bet you are fun at parties.

Blather? You malodorous bolus of hog phlegm ... there, you like personal insults coming your way? Tisk Tisk.

Actually, the live event recordings allowed me to move freely from the control room (never sealed) to the stage, to the audience, at will, even within the space of a single piece. And the performances were exclusively acoustic (with the sole addition of amplified guitar, and a bit of house sound). So who is blathering now? And don't you find it ironic that I LIKE the Avalon monitors? That fact seems to be eluding those who are attacking me.

I never said the Avalons were not dynamic ... in the many applications I have heard them in, sans the two way monitors, which I like, they were dry, etched and amusical. Very detailed? Absolutely. Musically satisfying, not for me, they aren't.

The liquidity that characterizes the best transducers was simply not there.

You want to claim that in some idealized application they do better? I am sure you are correct ... one of the posters spoke to journey of years trying to achieve just that result. I have no interest in devoting years to get something to sound good.

Why is it that you grow so antagonistic at a personal level, simply because I do not share your personal assessment of a speaker?

At any rate, I stand by my observation.

The Good Doctor

 

RE: Keeping Variables Constant, posted on June 21, 2007 at 11:23:03
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 Because, the Eidolons were the variable. In each of a score of situations, they were always there, and the outcome was always similar.

In the recording illustration, I was there to hear it live, I could ab microphone feed, from what was going on, on the hard drive, I could hear the play back on phones or the avalon monitors. We used BAT in the recording process and in the playback process.

The little Avalon monitors sounded great. I liked em a lot.

Put the whole thing, the MASTER, on the BAT/Avalon system (and you wil recall you endorsed BAT for this speaker) and whoosh ... dry and etched.

I would say this is FAR more rigor than the vast majority of even reviewers would go to before stating a firm opinion.

Remember, in addition to the recording illustration, I have literally scores of other interactions in a huge range of rooms and applications.

Face it, I simply don't find the speaker musical.

Whew.

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 21, 2007 at 12:32:59
George Mann


 
Perhap's you should here a proper Accuphase/Avalon setup for yourself, preferably using a true hi-end vinyl source like my Micro Seiki RX 5000 Air/MAX-282 setup!

Even my best friends Accuphase E-550+AD-2800, Michell GyroDec SE (inverted bearing & original metal platter), SME309 and Shelter 90X, running thru a pair of Avalon Eclipse Classics delivers true, life-like sound across the board.

I am currently using his Symbol's with my E-202 and MS BL-51/Grace 707 II, with his Sound-Smith B&O SMMC-1. It is the very best system that I have heard in the $10K range!



 

RE: To clarify, posted on June 21, 2007 at 13:26:22
yrs


 
Actually my journey over time was/should be quite expected,by any "advanced hobbyist",regarding the learning process of effective "line interaction"(conditioners/regenerators,fairly new to industry,relatively speaking)and becomming quite good at voicing and balancing a superb analog rig(No DSD here,but I do like my Levinson digi gear).Normal upgrading/modifying of components etc.There is a load of variables we ALL learn as time goes on(I assume most do it this way).Much componentry sounds good,but can sound far better,with careful comparisons and I expect this is normal for most.My reason for keeping my own pair of "original" Avalons was because I heard little to make me want to change(but I DID build a dedicated room,specifically for "their" energy propogation).That is it,in a nutshell!!Though having the speakers 9 feet out,necessitated a sub system,that really worked.I also felt the accuracy argument made,in my original multi-paged speaker manual/art book(almost)was far more convincing(especially as time went by,and I heard more speakers)than the marketing done in many newer designs,like many manufacturers do.Including the new series of Avalon designs.Yet I still am open to the "presentation" of many designs,and like much!BTW,I live in the NY metro area,and have heard it ALL!Though I do like much stuff,I simply have my own agenda,and it is just fine if someone else does not care for my tastes.EX:...I heard the mega dynamic Nola Exotica/ASR set-up,at length,in a great room/system, and got a headache from the overwhelming dynamics,after about 30 minutes.Just my taste!.....BTW,the "hog Flegm" bit was TRULY the funniest(sincerely,and respectfully)schtick I have ever read on threads!Really!!-:)
I must assume any long term audiophile has taken years to complete a really good set-up(my friends sure do,and their stuff is superb,though different in presentation).
One thing I have learned,is many hobbyists are way too impatient,and buy/sell too frequently to gain the best from a purchase.Also,many are too influenced by marketing/reviews.I like my own set of mid-life ears!

 

RE: wow, talk about putting words in my mouth ..., posted on June 21, 2007 at 13:39:56
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 Because I personally don't like a brand of speaker, I have impugned anyone associated with them? That is patently absurd.

I love Mozart, but I think Bach sounds like sewing machines ... want to come after me for that too? As in, Bach can suck the life out of a listening session better than any famous composer I know.

Wow, dude, you have completely lost perspective. I never said a WORD about people who like them; I assume they hear them differently. Such is life. I have very close friends in audio, and if it were necessary we agreed on everything, our friendships would be impossible, and that is childish and one of the things about this "hobby" that makes me nuts.

Alternative Four: Dr. Sardonicus does not care for Avalon speakers, except for the two way studio monitors ... and you PERSONALLY need to relax.

You are also confident for no reason that if you controlled the situation, you would control my experience of it. I am perfectly comfortable with being in the same room with you and drawing utterly different conclusions about what I am hearing. You are not the standard; neither am I.

You are correct, speakers are the hardest, because they are the most variable. On this one thing, we agree.

I did not say they sucked, I said they sucked the life out of recordings. Not the same thing, and I also said there are people who really like that clinical, dry, hifi sound ... there are enough speakers voiced that way that sell really well.

People have the right to like what they like. If that were not the case, there would be precious little opportunity for most products.

You are sure my conclusions are reached incorrectly. Do you think Dave Wilson thinks Avalons are better than his product? Or Brian Cheney, or any other host of speaker designers and manufacturers who are in business, PRECISELY because they think their approach is superior?

Do you ignore other contributors to this thread who have said essentially the same thing I have said?

Your arrogance is breath taking.

I am no longer insulted. You have issues.

The Good Doctor

 

RE: At last, posted on June 21, 2007 at 13:46:12
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 perspective, lol, thank you ... I was going to try the "dubious issue of a sweaty trailer park tryst between two first cousins" but I thought it might be uncomfortably close for some of the posters. ;-)

I can think of no other hobby where the simple expression of preference can produce such a feeding frenzy.

I don't have to like what I don't like. And I don't have to prove why I don't like it. I hear Avalons as highly detailed, etched and dry. With the exception of the two way monitors, this is the reaction I have had every single time I have heard them, which is lots. My reaction. My opinion.

My intuition is that by the time someone can afford a pair of diamond eidolons, they have pretty much come to understand their own sonic preferences.

Please do assume I have painstakingly and as sincerely reached the opposite conclusion.

The Good Doctor

 

It's clear that this isn't going anywhere., posted on June 21, 2007 at 16:21:38
Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 6984
Joined: August 1, 2001
 You're clear that the Eidolon Diamonds have a "clinical, dry, hifi sound".

I'm clear that they are superbly transparent transducers that can produce that sort of sound *if* they are connected to associated equipment that has that sort of sound.

From a logical point of view, there would only need be *one* example of a system using Eidolon Diamonds that *didn't* sound "clinical, dry, and hifi" to know that the speakers were not to blame.

I (and many others) have heard Eidolon Diamonds in systems that didn't sound that way, and we are confident that the speakers don't sound that way. You haven't heard a system like that (at least not yet), so you are convinced that the problem lies with the speakers.

It's clear that we aren't going to change each other's minds on this forum, so we may as well end this discussion now. I only have one last semi-related question for you. Why do you think all of the Avalon speakers "suck the life" out of the music except for the two-way Monitors? In other words, what is different about them compared to the other Avalons that allows them to sound good?

Just curious...

 

RE: Interesting question, posted on June 21, 2007 at 18:28:18
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 I asked one of the Avalon reps who routinely came along on our recording sessions ... he was politic about responding.

I suspect it is easier to get a two way nailed down ... and at that price point, they had to keep it simple, and rugged for the application (although rugged and ceramic drivers, certainly don't go together in the same sentence).

In general, I think a reduced range two way is a very different beast to design and construct than when you are shooting for 20/20000.

As to one illustration, if it is rare to hear a speaker sound good, and only if everything is optimal can this be achieved, then my observations are still sound.

Outside of some supposed ideal situation, when I have heard the speakers in a variety of real world situations, this is how they have typically performed.

You reference my Piega's, which I am selling off, great little speaker, but was never intended as a long term reference ... they sound good if you feed them a reasonably high current amplifier of reasonable quality. In room after room, application after application. I had them stuffed in my too small HT room for months, and they sounded GREAT ... open, liquid, and I drove them with everything from an ice amp to little tubed integrateds. They always sounded differently, but always appealing and musical.

Hence, my generalization ... when I have heard the Piega P-10's driven by amplifiers with enough current, they are always musical and appealing. From your own comments about their measurements, you also see them as technically excellent.

THAT is the difference.

And you are right, this horse is stumbling, on to other things.

----------------------

Perhaps this will fan other flames ...

The little Thiels are nicer than the big ones.

Wilsons very frequently sound like superb PA speakers.

Transmission lines are still the best way to get good bass in a real world speaker.

Ribbons rock.

I believe that Jennifer Crock can make an obscure two way commercial cinema horn into THE high efficiency speaker of the era, if she becomes sufficiently motivated. And if she does, I am going to buy a pair of those wicked Ming Da, 300-b/805 SE monos ...

Krell and Apogee was a match made in heaven, well, until the Apogees would break.

If a speaker can't do all forms of music convincingly, something is wrong.

Speakers that "reach down into the forties" need to reach a tad futher. That is NOT full range.

Most audiophile speakers can't do real bass for sour owl crap. That dry, "thock thock," you are being told is audiophile bass, is just like spa cuisine ... expensively fashionable bullshit.

There, lol, take your shots.

The Good Doctor

 

Thanks for the sincere reply, posted on June 21, 2007 at 18:59:57
Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 6984
Joined: August 1, 2001
 A lot of what you said I agree with. Some of it I disagree with. But the thing I most strongly agree with is this:

<< If a speaker can't do all forms of music convincingly, something is wrong. >>

However, I would expand that to include the entire system and not just the speaker.

I would also like to extend an invitation of sorts. If you are coming out to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fair (or Colorado in general), please let me know. I think I can arrange for an audition of some Avalon speakers that will change your opinion of them. I can't promise, as we don't have any Avalons at the factory right now. But I still know some of the people there and can probably arrange something. If I can arrange it, I can promise you it will be worth your while.

 

RE: Back at ya, posted on June 21, 2007 at 19:20:05
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 Charles:

I attended last year, so I am not sure about this one ... new job and circumstances may not allow.

However, if I do, I will certainly take you up on your kind offer.

The Good Doctor

 

RE: To clarify, posted on June 22, 2007 at 00:53:44
Chagall
Audiophile

Posts: 7
Joined: February 7, 2005
 Dr.S states: "Why is it that you grow so antagonistic at a personal level, simply because I do not share your personal assessment of a speaker?"

While I'm sure that an informed reader of this thread can quickly get a handle on the "expertise" levels of the various posters involved, let's just say I felt a little balance was in order. You cry "foul" for Charles' rather polite and diplomatic series of posts questioning your blanket condemnation of an entire speaker line and immediately label him as "churlish" and a "drive by cretin". He handled your obvious inexperience with a great deal of restraint and diplomacy. You, however did not respond in kind.

After reading your statement about playing in various rock bands since the age of fourteen and your obvious predilection for studio monitors, I logically wondered if hearing loss pre-disposes you to the sound of near-field studio monitors. If you view that as a personal attack, then you must have a plentiful supply of pampers at hand.

Dr.S additionally states: "In general, I think a reduced range two way is a very different beast to design and construct than when you are shooting for 20/20000."

"As to one illustration, if it is rare to hear a speaker sound good, and only if everything is optimal can this be achieved, then my observations are still sound."

"Transmission lines are still the best way to get good bass in a real world speaker."

"Ribbons rock."


I personally find these statements as ill-informed and illogical as your prose and completely agree with Charles Hanson's opinion of you as an "internet expert".

Your posts remind me of another fairly active contributor to this forum, who, when he hits the hooch a little too hard, feels compelled to start spewing forth any number of defamatory and abusive statements to any and all parties involved. Problem is, to some of the less experienced readers and new people entering this forum, they may not be as well equipped to separate the wheat from the chaffe.

 

RE: At last, posted on June 22, 2007 at 07:44:25
yrs


 
Dear Dr S,In case the last response("to clarify")was directed at me...I really don't care what set of variables tickle your fancy.Of course you have every right to like or dislike whatever you please.
I have friends who hate other componentry,in other pals' set-ups.NOBODY gets too upset about this,and NOBODY goes to such rediculous lengths to prove their feelings about a specific product.
Feel free to dislike the "Diamond"!Many others like it!Why your opinion is getting so much thread space is a mystery to me!-:)

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 22, 2007 at 08:45:36
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9321
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Maybe you are right but I have yet to be convinced by what I am hearing from even the Eidolon Diamond. For the money it seems to woefully underperform. Surely you are not going to tell me that Pass Labs amps are inadequate to get good sound from these speakers?

My experience directly mirrors what several others here have noted. I am not surprised at what they report.

I am not convinced that going to Accuphase will make that big of a difference. I have heard Accuphase amps on a number of speakers and while good sounding they never lit a fire under the speaker to give a really "WOW" sound. Maybe the speakers sucked or not hard to say. Suffice to say that the ONLY amps from Accuphase that I would give truly serious consideration to are their true Class A amps (I believe it is now the A60 and the E550). These are easily the best sounding Accuphase amps, IMO.

 

RE: It's clear that this isn't going anywhere., posted on June 22, 2007 at 08:52:22
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9321
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 "From a logical point of view, there would only need be *one* example of a system using Eidolon Diamonds that *didn't* sound "clinical, dry, and hifi" to know that the speakers were not to blame.
"

Not if the associated gear was the extreme opposite, Charles. If the gear was overly warm, lush etc. etc. and it came through somewhat this way on the Eidolons it doesn't mean that the speaker isn't clinical and dry etc...especially if the end result is less so than this gear on other speakers. If they sound dry and lifeless with a majority of amps that sound more or less fine on other speakers, are they then the only speakers that are right or is there something really wrong with them? Well the only real comparison then that makes sense is to compare with the live. If they sound significantly different from this (a comparison that Dr. S has apparently done) then they are wrong and other speakers get closer, whether you like them better that way or not.

 

RE: Interesting question, posted on June 22, 2007 at 08:57:22
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9321
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 "Krell and Apogee was a match made in heaven, well, until the Apogees would break.
"

Actually Apogees would sound much better with your BAT amps. As a former Apogee owner and friends with several Apogee owners around Europe we have now tried LOTS of amps with Apogees and found that hybrids and/or amps with little to no negative feedback and high bias class A sound the best with them. Tubes can also sound amazing. Krell is unfortunately one of the worst sounding amps to put on an Apogee. The association came out of necessity when early apogees were such difficult loads. Later Apogees were much easier to drive thus making the iron fisted Krell unnecessary but the association stuck.

 

RE: It's clear that this isn't going anywhere., posted on June 22, 2007 at 09:17:37
Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 6984
Joined: August 1, 2001
 I understand what you are saying, and agree. And I have been doing this long enough to know to watch out for that, and also recognize what components are contributing to which aspects of the system's overall sound.

For now, you'll just have to accept my word that the Eidolon Diamonds can sound extremely musical without resorting to "overly warm, lush" electronics. If you are coming out to Colorado for the RMAF, I will also extend my offer to Dr. S to you to try and arrange for an audition that would change your mind about these outstanding speakers.

 

RE: You may be right, posted on June 22, 2007 at 10:27:59
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 My memory is an old one, and what impressed me was that the Apogees sounded so much better with the Krell, than I had ever heard Krell sound previously.

However, I will get sort of an opportunity to see, because I am looking at reviewing their new incarnation, and of course, I have the flagship BAT VK-600-SE in my listening room, on Critical Mass filters, and powered by Jena Labs Two Eze.

I am looking forward to it.

The Good Doctor

 

RE: It's clear that this isn't going anywhere., posted on June 22, 2007 at 15:44:47
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9321
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Its too bad that I live in Europe or I would take you up on this offer. Perhaps in the future it will be possible.

On a side note, I recently heard the Kharma Exquisite 1D (or some such title) with all WAVAC amps and the Caliburn Criterion turntable. The sound? Not completely lifeless but also somehow thinned in the way I have heard with the Eidolon diamonds. I mention this because the driver lineup is so similar. Now the WAVACS are anything but cold sounding and I heard an outstanding sounding WAVAC setup in London last September (interestingly with speakers also using ceramic drivers but not cold sounding at all). Now a friend of mine was doing the room treatments for this Kharma/WAVAC room (to everyones praise) and after the show we took him to my friend's house outside Munich to hear an Apogee Grand system powered by a pair of Sphinx Project 14s (zero feedback hybrids from the mid 1990s). The result? My friend stood up and declared "THIS is the best sound at the high end show Munich 2007!!" Really it wasn't even close as this system did everything that these others at the show could not. Neutrality without bleaching, dynamics without colorations, soundstage without FR trickery (it is TACT room corrected), life size images (not shrunken or bloated) etc. etc. This is simply what I do not hear from speakers like the Kharma or Eidolon and why they are simply not worth the HUGE asking price and why the Apogee Grand, at $85,000 in the mid 1990s, was absolutely worth the money.

 

My Take, posted on June 23, 2007 at 10:15:23
trcnetmsncom
Audiophile

Posts: 198
Joined: May 15, 2004
 Hello Seacard,

I too admire Avalon (Eidolon Diamond in particular) for the same reasons that you noted and also realize for the money you can purchase speakers that will have more bass and that will play louder. I guess it goes to show that trade-offs come in to play even at Eidolon Diamond money. But for me at the end of the day I haven't heard a speaker that has the overall balance of virtues and gets me as close to the music as the Eidolon Diamond. I find they make most other dynamic speakers sound disjointed.

For what it may or may not be worth to you. I'm also a musician, very very happily own BAT tube gear ( 150se-amps ... Rex pre-amp ) and most definitely have hearing loss. I love Quad-ESL's and owned them in the past but can't see that as an alternative giving your reservation about Avalon. As far as feeling emotion when listening to music on a system? Listening to music in my car or over my $12 alarm clock can evoke and make me feel just as much as emotion as my main hi-end system. I do not agree with the comments below regarding the Eidolon Diamond sucking the life out of a recording. Quite the opposite, due to their highly revealing nature I find them to be quite vibrant and full of life.

These are only my opinions and just that, they are no more or less valid then the other posters. I wish you all the best finding a speaker that makes you as happy listening to music as the Eidolon Diamond had made me.

Enjoy,
Tom

 

RE: You may be right, posted on June 24, 2007 at 15:20:09
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9321
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I have heard the new incarnation and it is direct from the mold of Apogees past but with lighter ribbons and higher energy magnets. It should sound fantastic with the BATs...provided you can actually get a pair (so far only 1 pair is in existence and it is in England).

 

RE: if you find my observations ill-informed, please respond, posted on June 25, 2007 at 08:18:09
Dr. S
Reviewer

Posts: 1264
Location: Oregon
Joined: February 7, 2007
 It is a very difficult thing to cover those last few feet between 40 and 20. Limited extension two ways avoid the problem, by avoiding the reach. You disagree?

I like ribbons ... this is ill informed? I doubt the people at VMPS and Analysis speakers would agree with you.

If a speaker only sounds correct under the most narrow of circumstances, I still assert there is a problem with that speaker.

Check speaker designs that give you real world extension to 14 - 20 htz ... or just ask around. Up until the advent of laser guided equipment, transmission lines were simply too complex and expensive to build to be practical. That has changed, but very few speaker builders have the engineering skills to design them.

You see Charles as having been "polite," and my comment that I personally found the Avalon Eidolons to be amusical, after a lot of experience with them, offensive. So be it. I stand by the observation. And if you will look up through the thread you will see I was far from the only one who feels that way.

I think it more likely that you simply disagree with my observations. That is why they make so many different brands and types of speakers.

As to what constitutes an "expert," well, I suppose that is in the eye of the beholder.

My assertion was that I did more due diligence with the Avalons than the vast majority of people out there, including being able to listen to them with master recordings.

I also assert I have sufficent experience in this area to field a reasonable opinion, even if it is in opposition to your's, or Charles, who by the way, could hardly be considered objective on the subject.

The Good Doctor

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on June 26, 2007 at 03:52:59
klausDK
Audiophile

Posts: 409
Location: denmark
Joined: April 18, 2003
Do not buy expensive Audio Physic speakers, like the Caldera, before considering, Sonics Passion, made by the owner and designer for Audio Physic, Joachim Gerhard.

http://www.sonicsonline.de/en/

What dreams are made of!

Best wishes from Denmark
KlausDK.

 

RE: Avalon Speakers, posted on July 11, 2007 at 06:56:07
chao
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Joined: July 11, 2007
 Hello Doctor,

do you mean de Studio Pro or the Mixing Monitor?

 

RE: LOL, now I get it, posted on July 12, 2007 at 12:15:19
Hujorgen


 
You know-- I've paged through this post and based on what you have asserted-- no one can at any time state anything, even if it's an opinion, about any particular piece of audio gear EVER. That's what your assertions amount to logically...

For it could ALWAYS be-- the microphone, the amplifier, the cd player, the stands, the cables , the room, my cat nearby, the shape of my eyeglasses diffracting the sound and so forth.

Only trouble is, everyone in this thread owns different equipment-- thus proving they all have differing opinions as to which gear sounds best. Some even chose not to buy Avalon speakers after hearing them; a tacit opinion, if you ask me.

Maybe the recordings they heard them with were wrong- or the microphone-- or the ambient temperature....

Good thing for opinion though- otherwise we'd all own the same gear and there'd be one manufacturer-- err.. One Manufacturer.

Sounds like North Korea to me. All hail the Dear Leader...

Hu


 

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