Serious Stereo 2A3

What are the transformers?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 08:37:24
Plinko Audiophile Posts: 1359 Location: N East, USA Joined: July 21, 2005	I seem to recall these being Electraprint but I could be wrong.

IIRC Hammond power transformer...., posted on November 1, 2009 at 08:56:30

Ivan303
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and Magniquest outputs.

Serious Stereo rooms was not that impressive this year, but it was more the room than the system.

I've heard these particular amps sound MUCH better with these exact same speakers at the last three RMAF and at the last VSAC as well.

The room was WAY to large for a flea powered amp and 99dB speakers. Might have worked with 106 dB horns.

Also, for some reason the speakers were set up WAY too close together for the size of the room.

Same can be said of the Audio Note room. I have heard these exact same amps and speakers (they are Perter Q's personal stash) at CES a number of time and in a proper room they are magic.

Once again, the particular end room that the high end Audio Note was in has NEVER sounded decent with any system I've ever heard and I have been to every RMAF since the very first one.

RE: IIRC Hammond power transformer...., posted on November 19, 2009 at 11:41:00

tube wrangler
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Hello Ivan303!

Thanks for putting up with us for this year-- I appreciate having you.

I learned a lot in Room 2024.

Here are some observations that may assist others looking to demo at Hi-Fi shows, and may help you at home also.

(1) Room size and power required: The old room at past RMAFs required the exact same setup be run at 1-to-3 o'clock on our attenuator. The new larger room required 10-11 o'clock on the same attenuator with the same source voltage-levels going in.

(2) The new, larger room used FAR LESS power! This was due to ROOM GAIN-- and some unwanted room reflections. So, we had power-to-burn.

(3) What went askew dept.:

(A) Speaker placement was too wide-- made happen by my video monitor being between the speakers. I guesstimate about 12-14" too wide. For a good read on this, get Jim Smith's new book "Get Better Sound". You'll like it.

(B) Musical sources were by Pioneer DVD and long, complex cables from my roommate's input to our system. Neither gave good performance. WHERE was our trusty music-server? In the shop. I'm building a new one with all-new software and hardware-- so far, I love it!

(C) No one had time to fix the rooms many problems-- acoustically.
BUT-- this room CAN sound good. The usual demo artist would first "Kill" the room with various sound absorbers, etc., but I wouldn't. Who likes dead, politically and tonally correct "flat" sound? Nope. The way to the light in this room is to spend enough time in it to understand it. You work WITH its many quirks and use them to advantage. That takes time you might not have.

(D) Something went right! On Sat. evening, we used the video and ran some good DVD musicals. It was a treat if you got to do it. No one who had come in ever left until it was all over. One visitor said "this is the most fun I ever had at an audio show".

And so it was. I had a great time also, but you'll have to blame ME for the sound-- not the room, and not the amps or speakers.

I'll be BACK!

---Dennis---

I heard the same thing in both rooms, compared to past shows, posted on November 3, 2009 at 23:58:36
Frihed89 Audiophile Posts: 8435 Location: Copenhagen Joined: March 21, 2005	But I didn't know the AN E's were that hard to set up. Perhaps it was just the large amount of separation. The room was very wide and the AN-Es sound best in corners. "What did the Romans ever do for us?"

I've been to all of the RMAF's since they first started..., posted on November 4, 2009 at 06:54:28

Ivan303
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and have NEVER heard ANY system sound good in the very large rooms at the one end of the hallway.

And as you correctly point out, in a room that large, if you choose to put the AN-E's in the corners of a room close to 25 feet wide, in order to accentuate the bass, ya got some problems right off the bat.

But I've heard Peter Q's own system at CES (including those very same speakers) and and loved the sound.

How can the room be too large?, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:29:22
gusser Audiophile Posts: 841 Location: So. California Joined: September 6, 2006	After we were told these things "can shake the roof down with 1/12 of a watt". The quote may not be word for word accurate but the gist of it is.

RE: How can the room be too large?, posted on November 21, 2009 at 12:03:43

tube wrangler
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Hello, Gusser!

That large room still has me wondering-- here's why:

(1) We ran, in past years-- in our old smaller demo room-- about 1 to 3 o'clock on our attenuator.

(2) In the larger room, we had to run it-- with the exact same speakers, amps, and input levels to the attenuator-- at 10-11 o'clock.

(3) In the old room, we peaked out at about 8/10 watt per side, in the new room, it is about 1/3 watt per side-- or less. That's all the room will permit-- as it is.

(3) If you're thinking "they had power to burn, then what went askew?", you would be on my own wavelength.

Oh, I have plenty of theories on this-- here's one that is possible: The old smaller room is much more absorptive, and allowed the use of more power (true), and the new, much larger room MIGHT have room gain-- quite a lot? (That's only speculative at this point, Gusser-- the fact is, I don't yet know that).

I do know that we could not run as much power in there as we could with the smaller room. Crank 'er up in the large room, and you will really excite that room, and it will throw things back at you. Those would be side-wall kickbacks and reflections, and possibly ceiling-bounce, and maybe even the room's volume, size, and shape allow a sort of internal amplification.

Now, all of this is just theories so far. The room DID NOT display any easy-to-spot echoes, and the back wall seemed pretty substantial-- that is, it did not tend to "ring" when speakers were close to it-- so it must have been of fairly good construction.

I had brought along some Pendleton Indian-Style blankets of differing sizes, but alas, people were coming in, and that was the end of the setup time we had.

I know that my use of a wide video panel caused the speakers to be too widely separated for this room, despite its large size. Interestingly, these speakers have performed very well in homes with even larger rooms, but they were not as "square" as this one was.

The room is about 26 feet X 25.5 feet, and has some cavities, alcoves, and etc., which do not make it a true square.

The room didn't have a "Hall-Effect", and it didn't really ring, but you could not use any power in there without getting VERY loud-- in the entire room!

If that was done, clarity was good, as was dynamics, but the side walls really got excited, and the entire room sort of "lit up".

Late on Sunday, I finally got time to do some tire-kicking, and what I kicked around was the speakers. I finally got a smaller area inside the giant room-- performing fairly well. One guy said we had finally gotten the better sound at the show, but that he didn't consider that a compliment.

He said we were "too late" (Sunday evening), and that we hadn't come up-- even then, to what he normally expects from us-- judging from past shows.

He was right. Gusser, if you or others here have some ideas on how to use large Hotel rooms for audio-- I'm all ears-- maybe I can learn something here... those large rooms bring in people, smaller rooms don't--people shoot right ny them. Nevertheless, I'll go back to smaller if I can't fix the monsters. Jim Smith "Get Better Sound" book-- mentions in his book that large rooms don't cut it, yet I have speakers in large rooms IN HOMES that really work.

Oh yeah-- the video! THAT was fun! On Sat. night, we invited people in, and no one left until the DVDs were finished. One guy said, "this is by far the most fun I ever had at an audio show".

Don't blame the room for the audio-- just yet-- blame me!

---Dennis---

It might be able to do that with MY speakers..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 14:43:52

Ivan303
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at 106 dB...

But not these.

99dB speakers (100dB before you add a crossover) sitting close together against the BACK WALL of a LARGE room...

With a Flat Screen TV in between them. :-(

These same amps in a smaller room with these same exact speakers were GREAT sounding at RMAF 2007 and 2008.

RE: It might be able to do that with MY speakers..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 15:48:22

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With all of the attention in the room given to cable lifters, and an Anti-static CD "pulverizer" and mostly very poor music choices, I am trying to figure out what this guy was thinking. If the speakers were too close together, moving them around would have been more productive than all the fidgeting he did with the cable lifters.

I still think his speakers were the weak link. Those Altec 604s in those huge boxes were Slow and lumbering. They rumbled like a distant thunderstorm and pretty much 'clouded' over any high frequency detail from any following notes.

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Could be..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:09:49
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 15825 Location: San Francisco Joined: February 26, 2001	But as I said, that same system had sounded better a couple years ago. Same exact speakers, IIRC.

What was the TV for?, posted on November 2, 2009 at 14:52:45
gusser Audiophile Posts: 841 Location: So. California Joined: September 6, 2006	God help us if Dennis starts getting into video! Just think a Serious Stereo 4x1 passive HDMI swither with really, really, high transfer efficiency for video!

They were sharing the room with a guy who was doing..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 15:04:31
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 15825 Location: San Francisco Joined: February 26, 2001	computerized vinyl transfers, or something like that. It was an OK sounding room, but nothing like 2007 or 2008.

RE: But you forget ..., posted on November 1, 2009 at 18:56:51
mach1 Audiophile Posts: 245 Location: Brisvegas Joined: April 24, 2005	Due to its high internal transfer efficiency, the serious stereo amp produces 'magic watts', 1.5 of which which are capable of inflicting serious structural damage with 99db transducers.

So let's give SS the benefit here, posted on November 1, 2009 at 09:12:26
Plinko Audiophile Posts: 1359 Location: N East, USA Joined: July 21, 2005	of an estimated $2K in parts cost. What is the remaining $15k for? Seems laughable but then again Audio Note seems laughable on a much larger scale and they seem to be taken seriously.

RE: So let's give SS the benefit here, posted on November 1, 2009 at 15:02:39

Donald North
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Having been to AN UK's engineering and manufacturing facilities, I disagree with saying their products seem laughable. I know of no other high end company which has the NOS inventory or uses custom components to the extent that they do. Look at their range of transformers: You can buy M4 EI, 3 levels of Hi-B and 2 versions of nickel with double C cores, and your choice of copper or silver windings.

Donald North

Sorry; but ordinary 2 way box speakers for $51K and $185K amps are laughable............., posted on November 1, 2009 at 16:40:30

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I heard these components, and they are nothing remarkable as far as Audiophile quality sound. At the prices they charge, they are truly laughable.

DOn't get me wrong I heard some $68k Acapella Speakers that seemed to sound like they may have actually been worth the money.

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RE: Sorry; but ordinary 2 way box speakers for $51K and $185K amps are laughable............., posted on November 1, 2009 at 16:54:47
Donald North Manufacturer Posts: 910 Joined: February 8, 2001	I'm not a horn guy at any price. Not my cup of tea. Which model amp is $185k? Donald North

Here you go........, posted on November 1, 2009 at 17:14:03

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Prices are not given on this website - maybe they are too embarrassed - They should be!

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http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/amps_monoblock/gaku-on_0

I think it's around $100,000. You can ask Mike or Neli at Audio Federation, posted on November 2, 2009 at 10:27:45
Frihed89 Audiophile Posts: 8435 Location: Copenhagen Joined: March 21, 2005	Audio Note is certainly a lightning rod for contrasting opinions. I am cursed economically by how good the music sounds to me. You are blessed for the opposite reason. Look at it that way. "What did the Romans ever do for us?"

I'm looking at the price list I picked up at that room and it says $185,000.........I picked it up, posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:02:05

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Just to show the 'people back home'.

But really, what's the difference $100K or $185K ?? both are outlandish for a stereo amplifier.

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Perhaps Audio Federation adds a few bucks..., posted on November 2, 2009 at 12:13:58
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 15825 Location: San Francisco Joined: February 26, 2001	but I think Peter Q sells most of that stuff to "richer" countries than the US! =:-0

Understood, posted on November 1, 2009 at 16:12:38
Plinko Audiophile Posts: 1359 Location: N East, USA Joined: July 21, 2005	I didn't really mean to make this about Audio Note so disregard those comments. I would find any audio product in the six figure range laugable but I clearly realize that this is more reflection of me than the caliber of Audio Note products. There are some great Audio Note products but the general VFM is horrible and seems similar to this ridiculous SS 2a3 amp (sorry, just my opinion).

There are some great Audio Note products but the general VFM is horrible, posted on November 12, 2009 at 17:15:06

Bob Neill
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Everybody likes to bash the ultra expensive stuff to make some elusive point. Have you ever heard the Dac 1.1x Signature II ($2600), the K/SPe speakers ($3000), or the OTO integrated amplifier ($3275)? These three units offer some of the best value for the money in the world. What point are people who ignore these components and beat up on the company's elite gear trying to make? Volkswagen make a $48K Tourag, the laughable bastards. Oh yeah, they also make an $18K Golf but don't pay any attention to it, it spoils the story.

RE: There are some great Audio Note products but the general VFM is horrible, posted on November 17, 2009 at 06:14:44

Plinko
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hey Bob...it's only my opinion. i've heard the lower end products that you speak of but can't remember if I heard the DAC. that amp and speaker are *superb* Audio Note products. the kits are great value. however, with a little effort and patience, I ended up with amp and speakers that are far superior for less money. amazing, eh?

not a single thing I have said should indicate that there are Audio Note products that should be ignored. there are always exceptions to the general rule but sorry for the generalization!

the >$100K products as consumer luxury goods with zero utility are only relevant to millionaires with money to toss away (50% depreciation upon purchase) or...fools. this can be interpreted as a fact that can be supported by the small number of units sold. it is even further supported by the small number of units sold against the potential market (this can be interpreted as the roughly 10 million millionaires around the world give or take a few fools). for the rest of us (99.85% of the world's population), the products are irrelevant and should constitute poor VFM.

so then why are these products even sold? because there are 10 million millionaires around the world and some subset of this 10 million are audiophiles. it's also obvious that the margins are far greater so one has to sell far fewer units. it's a nice market to target. all the more power to them but it is nothing to be applauded or swooned over at audio shows or elsewhere. again, my opinion.

RE: So let's give SS the benefit here, posted on November 1, 2009 at 14:26:14
PakProtector Audiophile Posts: 9949 Joined: May 14, 2002	It is clearly a great, time-consuming effort to come up with the explanations for why his amps are built the way they are. That HAS to take Serious money to do it as well as Dennis does. cheers, Douglas Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

Prepare yourself for the onslaught ; ) (nt), posted on November 1, 2009 at 10:42:52
Eric B Audiophile Posts: 41 Joined: October 11, 2001	NT

RE: Serious Stereo 2A3, posted on November 1, 2009 at 01:51:21
Ray Moth Audiophile Posts: 1962 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Joined: November 10, 2003 Contributor Since: May 20, 2009	The price for a pair is $18,000 AFAIK, so $11,500 is reasonable. The fact that only the amps are for sale suggests to me that the vendor didn't buy the Serious Stereo passive preamp or speakers.

I thought that was around the MSRP New from the Mfgr.............., posted on October 31, 2009 at 16:25:13

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His website gives no prices.....But if they are $17K new, My Welborne 2a3 Moondogs were even more of a bargain than I had previously thought. I visited the Serious Stereo room at RMAF - 2009

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RE: Serious Stereo 2A3, posted on October 31, 2009 at 15:19:43
Al Noakes Dealer Posts: 517 Location: London Joined: November 24, 2008	Both seem to have been assembled incorrectly . The lams are facing the valves Al

lams? Please Nt, posted on November 1, 2009 at 01:17:51
Frihed89 Audiophile Posts: 8435 Location: Copenhagen Joined: March 21, 2005	Nt "What did the Romans ever do for us?"

RE: Serious Stereo 2A3, posted on October 31, 2009 at 16:38:07
GEO Audiophile Posts: 2197 Joined: April 7, 2000 Contributor Since: September 9, 2000	Maybe that is why they are for sale....makes sense now.

RE: Serious Stereo 2A3, posted on November 1, 2009 at 02:26:49
Ray Moth Audiophile Posts: 1962 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Joined: November 10, 2003 Contributor Since: May 20, 2009	The orientation of the trannies seems to match the photos of Dennis's amps on the Serious Stereo site. Also, I seem to recall Jeff Medwin claiming that the transformer laminations should always face the tube like that. Chances are, he got that idea from Dennis. Doesn't make sense to me, but I have been labeled a "flat-earther", so what do I know?

RE: Serious Stereo 2A3, posted on October 31, 2009 at 13:19:01
Neff	DIY is a way to lower costs. I do not believe any secrets exists to achieve quality sonics. Perhaps we will see something new.

RE: Serious Stereo 2A3, posted on November 1, 2009 at 06:43:05
Palustris Audiophile Posts: 251 Location: Cape Cod Joined: September 12, 2008	One can take a lot of courses in basic AC and DC circuit theory for $11,500! There is no reason that anyone with a little intellectual curiosity and ambition to learn couldn't build amps that would get you most of the sonic abilities of these amps and more. If you build them yourself you can build to your own price point. Sorry, I know this is not a very popular opinion...

RE: Serious Stereo 2A3, posted on October 31, 2009 at 12:41:23
PakProtector Audiophile Posts: 9949 Joined: May 14, 2002	Beats heck outta me...:) I heard soooooo much hype about how these things were going to clean up at RMAF and then afterwards nobody said anything. Curious. cheers, Douglas Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

RE: Serious Stereo 2A3, posted on October 31, 2009 at 16:34:29

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I visited RMAF - 2009.

Serious Stereo was OK, I visited it 3 times with my own music - Nothing special. - The speakers are their weak link. Those Altec 604s sounded 'lumbering' and slow in those huge boxes. They needed some fast Compression Driver horns to 'clean' up the music.

The Biggest joke to me at the show was the Audio Note room. They had a pair of ordinary box speakers (about 2 feet tall) playing (get this $51,000) That is Fifty One thousand Shimolas. Hooked to a pair of amps that were over $100K. My $7K used Altec/KHorn System driven with SET amps at my home with blow this system away.

Best sound at the show for me was the Acapella Speakers powered by some Einstein Audio OTL amplifiers. All German Gear. About $200K worth of gear however, so I am not upgrading -- Clearly heads and tails above everything else I heard.

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That was the Audio Federation room, posted on November 1, 2009 at 01:15:55
Frihed89 Audiophile Posts: 8435 Location: Copenhagen Joined: March 21, 2005	They are, indeed, the US AN distributor, but their system was not all-AN. The speakers and the integrated, yes. The rest, no. I have heard these two components sound far better in other places. I'm not sure what was going on. "What did the Romans ever do for us?"

The only thing that was wrong was the price....................., posted on November 1, 2009 at 06:08:13

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I thought it was a great sounding system for $3,000.

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Thanks for sharing. nt., posted on October 31, 2009 at 21:26:57
RC Daniel Audiophile Posts: 1017 Location: Brisbane Joined: November 3, 2002	. "As long as we have any intention to be right... we should be wary. So long as words have the slightest ego attachment, they are dishonest." Charlotte Joko Beck

RE: Serious Stereo 2A3, posted on October 31, 2009 at 14:42:43
GEO Audiophile Posts: 2197 Joined: April 7, 2000 Contributor Since: September 9, 2000	Circus barking......

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Serious Stereo 2A3

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