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Are there any guidelines on which tubes, amps are less fatiguing?

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Posted on October 23, 2009 at 18:47:49
robertd
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Posts: 48
Joined: April 24, 2009
Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2009
 Hi one of the reasons, probably the main reason, I'm interested in SET is I've come to appreciate equipment that is less fatiguing. I'm fairly naive about all this, and assumed all SETs had roll off and distortion that resulted in them being the answer to fatigue problems. Now I've read through some threads and it seems there are some that are forgiving others that are more revealing.

So my question is are there any amps or tubes you would recommend to someone like me who wants to get rid of the fatigue factor. I would take forgiving over accurate any day of the week.

Thanks,

Robert
Fatigue factor, posted on October 28, 2009 at 11:43:50
FenderLover
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 My experience is gain stage tubes seem to contribute to harsh tone or listener fatigue more so than other tubes. Also, the phase inverter (in push-pull amps) can have a big influence on the final tone. At least, if you have a good gain stage/inverter setup, sometimes you can get away with an average power tube. But, if the gain stage/inverter stage is not good, million $$$ power tubes won't compensate enough to make the tone pleasurable.

RE: Fatigue factor, posted on October 28, 2009 at 18:33:14
robertd
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Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2009
 What do you mean by gain stage tube? I'm pretty ignorant.

RE: Fatigue factor, posted on October 29, 2009 at 04:24:37
robertd
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 Thank you!

RE: Fatigue factor, posted on October 29, 2009 at 00:18:24
FenderLover
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  Since: May 17, 2009

Check the schematic. V1 (1 section of 6SL7 duo-triode) is the gain stage tube. This tube is the first tube the signal is connnected to. Some amplifiers have two or more gain stages. This amplifier only has the one. The second half of the 6SL7 is being used in the tremolo section. V2, the other 6SL7 is in the phase inverter section. The 7591A (V3 & V4) are the power tubes. And the 5Y3GT is the rectifier.

I find that changing V1, in this amplifier, would prolly make the biggest tonal difference.

HTH!

Depends on what you find fatiguing., posted on October 25, 2009 at 01:47:41
RC Daniel
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Posts: 1015
Location: Brisbane
Joined: November 3, 2002
 What do you find fatiguing?

Exaggerated transient response can be - so can accurate transient response for some people. Same for dynamics... overt details... emphasised treble, or bass for that matter... Odd order harmonics can do same. One can also become emotionally fatigued when listening some music on a system they connect with; I don't see this as a problem to be avoided (more likely encouraged).

Another perspective. Many (not all) non-fatiguing systems are also uninvolving. Dull. Lifeless. That said, a system need not be dull and lifeless to be unfatiguing, it is just that many are, especially in the worlds of solid state and push-pull pentodes driving inefficient speakers.

There are many more ways of viewing this.

Personally, I find systems with recessed upper bass and (lower) midrange and often with an upward frequency tilt generally to be sonically interesting in an "ooh, ah, what will this disc sound like" kind of way, but emotionally uninvolving where music in concerned. This seems to be the general direction of "HiFi". Add in exaggerated transient response (ring ring) and sibilance and I will find it fatiguing. That said, I can generally enjoy music over 'most any system... though some are more appealing than others.

As for tubes, well, I have little experience there; give me a year or so...

Cheers
Raymond

"As long as we have any intention to be right... we should be wary. So long as words have the slightest ego attachment, they are dishonest."
Charlotte Joko Beck
Yes, there are guidelines on which tubes, amps are less fatiguing..., posted on October 24, 2009 at 18:36:42
Interstage Tranny
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Posts: 1403
Location: Eastern
Joined: October 4, 2006
 But, my choices might not be your choices. Opinions are like...u know.

There are some generalizations that I have found to always be true. First, tried and true gear, schematics and parts win, in my book. NOS vintage tubes sound better than newer offerings. Gray plate tubes sound softer than black plate tubes. Globe GL balloon tubes sound mellower than ST shape tubes. 12AX7/ECC83 preamp tubes sound better to me than 6DJ8/ECC88 tubes.

I also like sweet and detailed, but not too bright. In my systems, black plate preamp tubes sound forward, so I choose gray plate 12AX7s and 5751s over shiny black plate varieties. I use real, vintage Telefunken ECC83s as my reference, not reissue or new manufacture tubes. Sometimes, I choose Mullards or Amperex or even old, long plate GE or RCA preamp tubes. Tube choices are critical, as are parts choices.

I set up and choose synergistic gear that enables palpable 3D soundstage efx. I believe the speakers are like the front of the stage, the proscenium arch, in the theatre. If sounds come forward of my speakers, they better come from the rear, or behind my speakers, even more. I need depth. Don't believe anyone that tells you depth and width comes from aberrations in frequency response. Choices of parts and gear can yield the sound you are hoping to achieve. But, we must pay to play...

A counter-example..., posted on October 24, 2009 at 06:24:53
eyes
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Posts: 98
Location: Oxford Mills, Ontario
Joined: February 19, 2004
 A few years ago in my speaker quest, I purchased a pair of Reference 3A deCapos, reasonably efficient, considered SET-friendly, minimal crossover, a single cap on the soft dome tweeter. With a 300B SET amp, I couldn't listen for very long. Ripped my ears off. Soft dome tweeter. Go figure. Did some research. The company has gone through three different soft dome tweeters in the deCapos. Just bad design.

A soft dome tweeter is not a guarantor of non-fatiguing sound. I now happily listen to Beyma tweeters and Altec compression drivers: aluminum diaphragms, never fatiguing.


/eyes
RE: A counter-example..., posted on October 24, 2009 at 09:49:05
danlaudionut
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Posts: 3564
Location: Upstate NY
Joined: June 6, 2002
 Eyes

What a coincidence ...
I heard the Reference 3A deCapos at the show
that I went to and was impressed with their
midrange clarity and their ease of sound.
I loked at their literature and say that
they didn't use an inductor and
that is where I got the idea from.
Of course my Dynaudio D260 are much
better than their stock tweeters.
I don't remember what amp they were using
and the tweeter was not memorable.
KEF tweeters sure did rip my ears off.
I did research and found it is because
they use a flatter thab normal dome which
is prone to diaphragm break-up distortion.
So yes I agree that some soft dome tweeters
can sound harsh and have excessive bite.
I tried Audax(blow too easy), Morel(too soft),
Scan Speak(too aggressive) then I tried Dynaudio.
I had their cheap D28 which lacked refinement but
they were the closest to what I was looking for.
I then got the D260s and I knew I found the keeper.
I then stocked up on them and good thing too
as they don't sell them retail anymore.
If you cross them over above 4K they are awesome.
I am talking first order here of course.
Below that they have some 2nd harmonics problems.
Makes they sound less articulate more lush.

Aluminum diaphragms give me a headache because
of their HF ringing so I need soft domes.
Not everybody can hear that high so take that
as what it is - my opinion.

DanL
there is the opposite feeling too., posted on October 24, 2009 at 06:21:22
njjohn
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Posts: 2077
Location: new jersey
Joined: August 30, 2002
 You are right about your post because even tube amps and SET amps can be more or less grating and fatiguing. 95 percent of the time they are not. But there are moments at any given time when listening to audio is just not right.

But with tubes and SETS, there is the opposite feeling and this happens way more too. This opposite feeling is the feeling of the music and sound sounding "just right". It hits you like it sounds "just right", and that is a great feeling in music.

It is similar or like the feeling at a good jazz concert when the music and musicians are rolling and they are just hitting it right.

Regarding particular tubes, I have had problems with the 10y as a driver tube but not as an output tube. I don't know if it was that particular amp or not. But it really got on my nerves to the point that I had the amp changed.

Also in the audio signal, oil-filled capacitors are less fatiguing and easier sounding that poly caps. But that is in an a/b comparison and neither are generally an issue.
RE: there is the opposite feeling too., posted on October 24, 2009 at 08:18:16
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 4845
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 "It is similar or like the feeling at a good jazz concert when the music and musicians are rolling and they are just hitting it right."

I would like to predicate the following with the assumption that the Jazz concert does not involve electricity. (I assume it's live, acoustic Jazz)

Otherwise, of course the sound system being used at a live concert can be fatiguing, just like a playback system can be fatiguing. (distorted, bad frequency balance, etc...)

When I think of the concept of listener fatigue, I think of sound.

You seem to be talking about music. The two are not one in the same.

As long as the players are pro's, the instruments will sound good even if the band is not "locked in" that night. So the sound should not be fatiguing.

I've never heard the natural sound of an acoustic instrument be referred to as fatiguing.

Tre'


Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
RE: there is the opposite feeling too., posted on October 25, 2009 at 05:49:12
njjohn
Audiophile

Posts: 2077
Location: new jersey
Joined: August 30, 2002
 Yes, I think when I think of the concept of listener fatigue I am thinking also related to audio equipment or even sometimes related to amplification at a concert.

And the original idea of this thread is that listener fatigue can happen in any audio reproduction set-up because it could also be connected, for one, to the recording itself.

What I want to describe however, is the opposite circumstance. That is the audio situation related to the some positive aspects of audio reproduction: when it just sounds so good, so live, and the sound is so alive and breathing especially when the amp is warmed up. I think it is also related to when the tubes and equipment, the tube equipment is broken in.

I happen to go to a free concert last night in a basement room with some amplification and I was unimpressed especially by the music. I came home and put the stereo on in a room but I didn't get a chance to really hear it and it played the whole cd. It was one of the cds from Keith Jarrett "Live at the Blue Note". So I hit the play button again.

What really struck me in listening to this was the sense of aliveness, vibrancy, realism, and it is just like the sound is alive and breathing which I attribute to some extent related to ac on all of the tubes. I also attribute the sense of realness and liveness to the opts, but the dimensional aspects may also be related to the 6sn7 circuit which just puts the bloom and I guess alot of the sound variables on the table.

So I am facing a situation last night in which the audio sound exceeds the live performance that I heard. It exceeds it in terms of musical enjoyment and also in terms of the music to affect the listener.

Something tells me there is nothing artifical about this. Something tells me that somehow it is everything done right and simple starting with the recording, then playback, then going through the right amplification. And perhaps it is also what the effect of high effeciency speakers doo too in just picking up the air around everything.

Why do Rudy Van Gelder recordings sound so good? And why the early Blue Note jazz being recorded so well? Something tells me it was related to simplicity and minimalism.

RE: there is the opposite feeling too., posted on October 25, 2009 at 08:33:48
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 4845
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Yes, a good recording of great music played on a great system is more enjoyable than bad music played through a bad PA.

Just to take it to the extreme to make the point.


"Why do Rudy Van Gelder recordings sound so good? ................ Something tells me it was related to simplicity and minimalism."

Yes but also Rudy was a great engineer working with great musicians.


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Never heard a natural instrument sound fatiguing?, posted on October 24, 2009 at 08:58:06
Paul J.
Manufacturer

Posts: 121
Location: Scottsbluff, NE
Joined: May 6, 2004
 Really? I've got a couple of degrees in trombone performance. I've played in a two dozen orchestras, a few big bands, swing bands and rock bands. Acoustic instruments that are designed and practiced to fill big rooms with un-amplified sound are often pretty tough to take within 20-30 feet. Orchestral brass sound terrifying up close, and with some repertoire can sound very, very bright from the second balcony. The woodwinds don't erect those plexiglass panels for nothin'! Depending on the repertoire, orchestral flute players can peel flesh from bone. And jazz saxophone players? Sure, instruments from the 20's-40's can sound pretty tame, as they were built for more parlor-sized rooms. But from the Mark VI onward (when saxes were designed to compete with electric guitars), loud and bright have been king. Strings? Percussion? Don't get me started. In real life, cymbals are ear splitting at high volumes.

One of my biggest problems with conventional hi-fi is that it makes real instruments sound smooth and lifeless. Whether listening to a jazz combo in a little bar or an orchestra from the back of the hall (or especially an orchestral musician in a practice room), real instruments complex overtone series should create a sensation I've heard referred to as a "buzz" in ones ears, or "pressure" in ones head. I get none of that with most multiway speakers. Systems that sound "bright" do it in a different, glassy/electronic sounding way (many SS amps come to mind). (Acoustic instruments do not have a hint of electronic-y sound in real life).

I fully accept that it is possible that the overtone series of instruments in real space is lost in the recording process, and that I simply like speakers whose distortion adds back something akin to it. (Regardless of the speaker, many orchestral and jazz recordings sound hopelessly dead as a result of being pieced together note by note on a hard drive). But, the point is, winds, strings and percussion should sound fatiguing at times. If loud, intense music sounds smooth on your system, you've got troubles.

Paul
www.wildburroaudio.com

RE: Never heard a natural instrument sound fatiguing?, posted on October 24, 2009 at 10:12:34
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 4845
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Smooth vs fatiguing.

These are not two sides of the same coin.

Sounds can be bright and intense without being fatiguing. IMO

I like bite.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Some instruments are incredibly difficult to sound natural in playback..., posted on October 24, 2009 at 18:47:30
Interstage Tranny
Audiophile

Posts: 1403
Location: Eastern
Joined: October 4, 2006
 I think PaulM knows what live music sounds like. I am sure he strives for his playback gear to sound real/live. After all, there is a happy gray area in this hifi obsession.

Vibes, harpsichord, even piano and percussion instruments, can be tough to get right, both in recording and playback. Harpsichords sound metallic naturally. Recording them requires significant trial with mics and technique. When you hear an acoustic piano or guitar sound like it's electric, obviously that recording or playback equipment has faults. But, certainly, we all know that there can be a synergistic combo of equipment, attainable at modest cost, to satisfy our need for audio nirvana...

RE: Some instruments are incredibly difficult to sound natural in playback..., posted on October 24, 2009 at 21:10:04
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 4845
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "I think PaulM knows what live music sounds like."

I'm sure he does. So do I. I was a recording engineer for 14 years.

Paul and I were speaking about listener fatigue from a stereo system and Paul pointed out that real instruments can and do sound bright and intense.

I agreed that instruments can and do sound bright and intense but I don't think that is the definition of "listener fatigue". I don't think a listener gets fatigued by bright or intense live, unamplified instruments.


The listener might not like the sound. They may just cover their ears or leave the venue but I don't think that's listener fatigue.

The term "listener fatigue" was coined years ago. I believe it meant the feeling one gets when listening to a playback system that has a large amount of harmonic distortion (upper order being more fatiguing than lower order).

By definition, a acoustical instrument does not/can not create distortion.

And the "fix" for listener fatigue, as stated in the "old days" was to lower the distortion of the playback system. But I could be wrong.

So, not to pick on you or anything, but I'm having a hard time understanding where your post fits in.

I do agree with you. Reproducing (and recording) real instruments, including the ones you list, is hard to do. That is the challenge of both this hobby and the recording engineer.

Peace, Tre'

.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
RE: Some instruments are incredibly difficult to sound natural in playback..., posted on October 24, 2009 at 22:18:46
Paul J.
Manufacturer

Posts: 121
Location: Scottsbluff, NE
Joined: May 6, 2004
 I will agree that reproduction systems that are often referred to as creating "listener fatigue" have a different sort of signature from a real instrument. However, the same mechanism is at work. Folks (general term as I can't remember where I've read it, and I'm lazy) have measured the spectral content of some instruments, and found that some trumpets/players, for example, project more 4th and 5th harmonic than fundamental! Those nasty sounding upper harmonics can certainly create fatigue, which I'll define as something that is unpleasant to listen to for more than a couple of seconds.

I have no quarrel with the argument that some amplifiers create a fatiguing sound when compared to others, and fatiguing in a less accurate way. But I do want to be sure we stay focused on sounds that are real, not just easier on the ears. I don't suspect we disagree on that, as it was more a question of semantics.

It is certainly a worth topic of conversation though. I recently tried a pair of NOS RCA 12AT7WA's in place of my RFT's. The RCA's were certainly smoother and warmer, but I don't think it was for the better. As a complicating factor, their section balance was pretty bad compared to the RFTs (RCA's from ebay, RFT's from Jim Mcshane!) Given that each triode drives half of a quasi differential amp (I know, blasphemy here), it could be that some even order distortion was warming the sound up. Easier to listen too isn't always better. Thats all I'm saying.

Paul
RE: Some instruments are incredibly difficult to sound natural in playback..., posted on October 24, 2009 at 22:25:08
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 4845
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "Easier to listen too isn't always better. "

I agree with that.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
RE: Are there any guidelines on which tubes, amps are less fatiguing?, posted on October 24, 2009 at 05:36:47
JANDG
Audiophile

Posts: 1564
Location: Washington State
Joined: February 27, 2004
 I have a ringing problem that can happen with my ears that happens on certain systems & general noise in life, mostly high pitched stuff. I absolutely can not listen seriosely to average SS systems because of this anymore, just tried it again last week. A bad speaker system with a peak in it's midrange definately sets it off. I listen to OB hybrids made from JBL Jubals, the SEAS mid is flat as can be & very non fatiguing. I have had ET-8 hybrid planars that had a metalic nature to em & a bump in the mids that made them unlistenable to my ears,even with tweeters not in play. Also I run PP, SET, PSE, etc amps in differant systems & all are non fatigue & surely could be made fatigueing w/ a bad or drift in op-point or a million other things. I also can not stand lytics in signal chain in clean SE amps in anyway shape or form, fatigue comes quick with em for me. Both DanL & Tre' make very valid points . DanL designs & builds his own OB hybrid speakers of the very good type & could easily explain were fatiguing speakers alone can be something you will never overcome with em till that problem is resolved. On my JBL horns the SET= 45,amp better be smooth & no nasty anything or I can not listen to system, takes a while to achieve but allways win the battle. With a decent source & source material, flat speakers in the low to upper midrange, & decent tube amp in any topology should make for a non fatiguing good time. SET alone IMO has nothing to do with fatiguing & non fatguing as I run to many completely differant systems to believe this. SET does have it's own thing going for sure, just not IMO a instant fix for fatigue by a longshot.You will have to take the journey to find out what you enjoy & do not. Go to any good audio event & that alone will show you that oppinions on the very system 20 people all just listend to will vary greatly even to the extreme.
Joe

Wisdom for today.........
A GREAT tube amp or speakers will allways be GREAT & bieng relevant today is irrelevant.
I am having the same problem with distortion in voices, posted on October 24, 2009 at 10:16:36
Paully
Audiophile

Posts: 4167
Location: West Virginia
Joined: February 15, 2004
 There is some grainy distorted sound that I hear at a certain pitch in male voices. Some systems are worse than others but I hear it in most systems that I listen to. It is starting to become a distraction and I can only assume it is in my ears, probably damage from severe TMJ. Sucks.

RE: I am having the same problem with distortion in voices, posted on October 24, 2009 at 21:22:02
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 4845
Joined: February 9, 2002
 I have a friend who thought this same problem was in his speakers.

He bought several high end speaker systems. All of them had this problem, to him.

While playing female vocal he would point at the speaker and say "There, right there. When she sings that phrase". "That phrase" was clean and clear and sweet.

He finally discovered that the problem was his ears.

You are right, it sucks but as part of this process I was able to get him into DHTs and tube gear in general. He also got a turntable and is back into vinyl as well.

He is still afflicted but enjoying the tube set up more than anything he had in the past.

Tre'


Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I went through that exact same thing, posted on October 25, 2009 at 08:11:06
Paully
Audiophile

Posts: 4167
Location: West Virginia
Joined: February 15, 2004
 I would have my audiophile buddy over and be listening and would say when it would hit a certain tone in male vocals - do you hear that? Do you Hear That? Don't you HEAR THAT!!! (uh, no dude, sorry) What's the matter are you deaf!!!? - drove me nuts and I swapped gear relentlessly trying to figure it out.

But no, he didn't hear it and I could hear the same thing on his system as mine. He could hear a little of what I was talking about but not to the point of distraction which it gets me.

Obviously searching for speakers to fix your ears is dumb, once you realize that it may very well be you, but I am going to keep trying to find some that ameliorate the issue at those frequencies.

RE: Are there any guidelines on which tubes, amps are less fatiguing?, posted on October 24, 2009 at 09:50:29
robertd
Audiophile

Posts: 48
Joined: April 24, 2009
Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2009
 I agree that the impression is individual. One person's fatiguing can be another person's smooth, so my original post does have a goofy assumption - that fatigue is objective.

It sounds like some trial and error, lots of education, and maybe some own work on my part for speaker/amps. It could be fun trial and error, since tube amps are beatiful, and the SETs are new to me, and if I get a new set of speakers, that's always fun.

I also realize that on some occasions live unamplified acoustic music - symphonic, chamber - is fatiguing, so I'm looking for some softening.
some guidelines for less fatiguing gear..., posted on October 24, 2009 at 18:20:15
Interstage Tranny
Audiophile

Posts: 1403
Location: Eastern
Joined: October 4, 2006
 So, you want some softening ? You know the live sound of acoustical music. That is a great reference, the real highest fi. Some choices of equipment can achieve this highest fi in home playback, without any fatigue. That is why we have so much gear at our disposal. It is a necessary evil, or achiever, depending on how you look at it.

I cannot use any CD player or ipod as my reference. There is clearly some musical info missing, what I call the "action of the music." Things like the pluck of the string, the fingering, the strike of the key, the hit then splash of the cymbals, the three dimensionality, soundstage...Digital just does not compete with my record playing gear. Thru the years, I have tried way too many phono cartridges and preamps and tables and amps. There are way too many spare units on hand, here. I have gravitated to natural sounding gear. I used to like exciting, sit up and listen stuff. Then, and now, I really enjoy sit back and relax setups. I choose sweet and warm to overly bright and detailed, so I know about fatigue causing gear. However, your choices of gear are, will be, and should always be your own choices. Trying gear at an audio salon cannot duplicate your home system and environment. Yes, we must "pay to play" to discover what really turns us on.

First, I recommend only changing one component at a time. So, you can't replace the tonearm and cartridge, or amp and speaker, during a tryout. If your speakers can sound shrill, try other amps first. If they still sound shrill, sell the speakers, after you find more relaxing speakers. Use the same, known reference recordings. Unfortunately, our psychoacoustic makeup is easily confused and has terrible memory. Decisions cannot be made quickly. This is an utmost concern. A new SET amp(or any new amp) has parts that need break-in time. Some caps and trannies take months of useage to sound smooth. So, judging a newish amp or speaker requires real sit down and listen time.

While many of our peers choose expensive gear, many still realize that vintage gear has become their choice. Even a very cheap SE amp using EL84/6BQ5 tubes can satisfy, even with SE Pentodes. Ex-Console amps are THE best tube amp bargains. Perhaps, that can be a start for you. Their darker, warmer sonic signature is yours to be had for under $125. for a stereo SE EL84 amp, on the bay, any week. I predict as soon as you play one, you'll realize it's too bandwidth constricting. Then again, it may open your ears and result in instant ear pleasure. I use single, full-range speakers, most of the time. My choice has been Norelco/Philips 8 inchers. They can sound harsh, with the wrong amps or in the wrong boxes. When the equipment synergy is there, our trustworthy ears know it. If I wanted to mellow the highs of this speaker family, I would use their 12 inchers. The 12s have ballsier bass and mellower highs than the 8s. Decisions, decisions...

Why do you think there is such a huge, worldwide DIY arena of parts and schematics ? Simple parts choices and swaps can change tonality, spaciousness, etc. The widest bandwidth stuff and 1% parts probably will not yield sweet sound to your ears. Accurate ? Maybe, but probably not sweet and cuddly. A few changes of resistors and caps in your amp can make significant change in tone...Unfortunately, we must pay to play in order to really find out.

Lastly, find some audio hound in your region. Try and understand their choices after listening to their gear. Perhaps, you will luck out and find someone whose ears you can actually trust. Together, decision making on choices of gear can save you both many dollars. There are still some stores that will let you try gear at home, but they have time constraints. That can hurt, as some new output trannies can take over 100 hours of playing music thru them, in order to settle in...Good luck on your journey. You are almost there...
RE: some guidelines for less fatiguing gear..., posted on October 24, 2009 at 23:59:07
bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca
 I figure if something needs break in time ( other than Speakers )
something funny is going on. Whispers Interstage Transformers
for the Good tone

Great advice, posted on October 24, 2009 at 21:39:11
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 4845
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Especially the sound of live, acoustical music being the best reference.

In a lot of ways, I think it's the only trustworthy reference.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
RE: Are there any guidelines on which tubes, amps are less fatiguing?, posted on October 23, 2009 at 22:26:31
danlaudionut
Audiophile

Posts: 3564
Location: Upstate NY
Joined: June 6, 2002
 Robert

I understand your situation and been there.
I had to go to soft dome tweeters first.
Next use lower GM/Transconductance tubes
which are lower gain and/or higher rp tubes.
Stay away from 6922, 5842, 417 and the like.
6SN7, 6SL7, 12BH7, 76 and the 6072 are good.
For power the 300B and 6L6 family are good.
Stay away from silver and ribbon cables.

DanL
RE: Are there any guidelines on which tubes, amps are less fatiguing?, posted on October 23, 2009 at 19:09:43
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 4845
Joined: February 9, 2002
 I have no guide line for you but at one time listener fatigue was thought to be caused by distortion in the playback chain.

So a truly accurate system would be the least fatiguing to listen to.

Unless you are fatigued by listening to the real thing.

I guess there is distortion in the recording chain so it gets complicated.

I don't know how to cancel, universally, the distortion in the recording chain with anti-distortion in the playback chain. So, I think the best we can do is reproduce the recording with as little distortion in the playback chain as possible and if you come across a heavily distorted recording, don't play it.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
RE: Are there any guidelines on which tubes, amps are less fatiguing?, posted on October 23, 2009 at 21:54:21
bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca
 Try using a SET with a Interstage Transformer. Look at Olson's
web site on driver types.
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/FindingCG.html

RE: Are there any guidelines on which tubes, amps are less fatiguing?, posted on October 24, 2009 at 12:32:02
Ray Moth
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Posts: 1962
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Joined: November 10, 2003
Contributor
  Since: May 20, 2009
 I thought Lynn was a PP man, and that his ITs were used to recombine the music from a PP stage and then split it again for the next stage?

RE: Are there any guidelines on which tubes, amps are less fatiguing?, posted on October 24, 2009 at 05:14:48
andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 997
Joined: October 20, 2000
 I'd be interested in what the original poster means by "fatiguing" - with some examples. Might make it easier for us to help him.

A point I'd make is volume of normal listening. One thing I've found is that with greater and greater clarity I can listen quieter and still get the same pleasure. I'm listening to a 26 preamp right now and that's beautifully clear and smooth. Volume is quiet background listening, but it's such a lovely sound it's enough to give me what I want. Amp is a SE 300b with Lundahl OPTs, 30sp input and 31 driver. All DHT with IXYS active loads on the 26 and the 30sp.

I'm actually just listening to a very ordinary sounding single driver loudspeaker in a makeshift column, pointing up, but the sound is marvellous. You can go a very long way by getting the amplification right. For me that's DHTs all the way through to get the clarity and tone, but there are other ways of doing it. Single drivers can be good for clarity, too.

andy
RE: Are there any guidelines on which tubes, amps are less fatiguing?, posted on October 24, 2009 at 05:47:47
robertd
Audiophile

Posts: 48
Joined: April 24, 2009
Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2009
 I'll try to describe what I mean about fatiguing with two examples:

The other night I played the first track of "kind of blue" through my golden tube se40 with 6L6 tubes, into my Thiels with their metallic tweeters. The soundstage was a bit congested, maybe the balance was a bit off, and I chalk that up to the golden tube which has not been serviced for a long time. Other than that, what I was hearing sounded very nice, and nothing bothered me. Next, I swapped amps with the Spectral DMA 50. Soundstage and balance much better, more resolved, but I wanted to turn it down, turn it down, there was something in the sound that just tensed me up, ie hurt my ears a bit.

Yesterday listening to my IPOD, I used grado 225s. Again, the sound was on the harsh side, listening to a Patti Smith live recording. When I switched to shure se 310, I relaxed.

The SE 310 is rolled off in the highs compared to the grado. The IPOD is also not an ideal headphone amp.
Maybe it isnt the amp?, posted on October 24, 2009 at 13:39:32
gortnipper
Audiophile

Posts: 502
Location: Seattle expat in Auckland
Joined: November 28, 2003
 Mayb it isnt the amp, and it is the metal tweeters in your speakers that are fatiguing you?

My GPA 604s were killing me - I couldn't listen for more than half an hour (even with a nice 45 SET) before I had custom xo's made to replace the stock ones. Ahhh...sweet sounds ensued (even with a slightly soulless PPP amp).

Maybe like DanL says, have you tried some other speakers?

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