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Any inexpensive amp speaker combos to give a taste of SET?

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Posted on October 17, 2009 at 10:42:55
robertd
Audiophile

Posts: 48
Joined: April 24, 2009
Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2009
 Hi, I'm interested in hearing the SET sound, and would like to know if there are any inexpensive combos of SET amps and speakers you would recommend. I have Thiel 1.6, one owner said these worked well with an almarro integrated, but other than that, I think I would need a new speakers to test drive an amp.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I'd like to spend between $1 and $2K if possible.

Thanks! Maybe I'll be one of you soon! Robert

Thanks for all your posts, posted on October 27, 2009 at 14:39:38
robertd
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Posts: 48
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Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2009
 I'm in the educational phase, and I'm learning more every day, thanks to all you guys!

Try..try...try..., posted on October 20, 2009 at 22:49:46
gortnipper
Audiophile

Posts: 502
Location: Seattle expat in Auckland
Joined: November 28, 2003
 and dont be afraid to get it wrong and sell, sell, sell. I miss living in the USA. So much gear available from great builders, and so cheap.

I took a punt on my GPA 604s for high effeciency speakers, so I could get into SET sound since my big PPP amps and 90db speakers werent doing it for me any longer. Since then I have borrowed a DIY 45 (very nice, but too under-powered for all my musical tastes; a fat, thick KR 300B stereo amp; a DIY direct coupled EL84 PP (listening to now, and really like it - almost great, but no 8 ohm taps...).

So much to choose from, just start listening however you can.

Where do you live?, posted on October 20, 2009 at 17:41:13
RayP
Audiophile

Posts: 351
Location: Maryland
Joined: June 30, 2005
 Since nobody has asked already, I will ask the question. Where do you live? There is always a chance that somebody lives relatively close to you so that you can go and listen to their system. You may or may not like what you hear but at least you may get a sense of what is going on. The best part is that you will be able to discuss the whole topic of the SET world and even better, hear music that may be new to you.

My own 2 cents on the topic of what to try follows.

Amps - try to build your own - a kit is a great way to start and the Bottlehead kits are excellent. Think of any such kit as a learning experience. And you will find that there is nothing quite like listening to an amp that you built.

Speakers - it's all so room dependent, size, placement etc and there are so many alternatives. Think about an open baffle design which is simple and inexpensive to build. You can spend $$ on the drivers rather than the box. You might find the M.L. King article interesting (see url below). I'm not suggesting you build it because you will probably need more than 1 or 2 watts, just think about it. By the way the Jordan is a very good sounding driver.

Use some sort of powered sub(s) for your initial attempt so your low powered SET amp doesn't have to deal with the power requirements of low frequencies. You can use the sub(s) later in some home theater set up.

Just treat this as the initial steps on a journey and enjoy it all.

ray
RE: Where do you live?, posted on October 20, 2009 at 19:08:31
robertd
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Posts: 48
Joined: April 24, 2009
Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2009
 I live in Cincinnati, Oh. I'd be open to listen to one around here. I like the idea of diy, but I don't like the idea of 1) the pile of junk i'll turn the kit into or 2) the charred remains of my apartment after I go to bed with the solder iron on. There's about a 50 percent chance of the first contingency happening and a 50 percent chance of the second. Assuming independence, there's a 25 percent chance that I'll have a working amp without burning my place down.

Cincinatti, posted on October 21, 2009 at 05:54:48
RayP
Audiophile

Posts: 351
Location: Maryland
Joined: June 30, 2005
 About 12 years ago I decided that I was going to try to build something so I built a Nelson Pass design, Son of Zen. I had taken a soldering course at the local community college and managed to get the circuit assembled and also remembered to turn off the iron. It came time to turn on the beast and I ordered my young child and her friend out of the house and asked my wife to stand-by with the fire extinguisher. She didn't know whether to laugh or cry. To my great surprise, it actually worked and music came out of both speakers. After about two minutes, smoke started to come out of the amp and I shut it down. At that point I realized I needed more heat sinking and a lot more knowledge.

The point of the story is that the benefit of building a kit first is that you get detailed instructions and you learn lots of lessons about good layout etc. A simple and inexpensive ($99) example would be the new Bottlehead Quickie line stage which is battery powered and uses 3S4 tubes. (by the way, I have no financial interest in Bottlehead).

Finally, if you don't find anybody in Cincinatti, you would be welcome to come to a meet on November 15 in Stirling, VA near Dulles airport where you would hear a variety of stuff. It would be a bit of a hike for you, but a lot of fun when you got there.

ray

Then it won't be fair.... (longish!), posted on October 20, 2009 at 16:56:20
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 1321
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004
 ...if your observations/impressions later on on an SET base system are all derived from inexpensive speakers and amps. It's is doable however if you go DIY because your budget will go much further in terms of what amp and speakers you can built and assemble in terms of sound quality.

My opinion:

There are many reasons why a cheap SET amp is cheap. Same is true for a cheap high efficiency speakers. One important reason come to mind on amps is the output transformer quality which many believe can make or break a good amplifier design.

If it was me, I will try to find someone that prefer SET base system with high efficiency speakers. It is likely that this person tried many things already and graduated to much better equipment choices, per his preference. Build your impressions and observations from there.

I had a bad experience with 300B amp driving a Fostex MLTL speakers long time ago. I was not impressed at the sound. Not bad, but nothing special! I teached myself to built amps and read many posts on high efficiency speakers. In the end, I ended up with Altec and 45/2A3 family amps.

I was surprised the first time I heard my Fostex MLTL on my newly built 45 or 2A3 amp! Under power on the 45 amp because of the 94 dB rating of the speakers but the sound was more engaging and mcuh better in tonality than when I am using the 300B amp. In the end, I conclude that my cheap 300B amp is not on par to the other amps I built base on proven designs. The rest is history and still going SET/High Eff for almost three years now and counting.

Lastly, I would say take your time to do some research especially on high efficiency speakers. One with 97 dB or higher, to me is the way to go since you can try a variety of SET amps with them. For example, IMO,I do not think you will enjoy, say a 71A SET amp(750 mWatts), with a speakers with 94 dB and below rating. Will it drive it, yes, but sooner or later you are going to tax the amp specially if you listen a little louder. The more efficient your speakers are, the more amp choices you are going to have, IMO. So choose your speakers wisely.

Caveat: I came from Planar/Electrostatic with SS amps, tube preamp camp. Still have an SS set up but with actively driven speakers.

Goodluck!



DIY, all the time!
Agreed, posted on October 20, 2009 at 20:37:01
JustJoe
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Location: Essex
Joined: July 8, 2009
 Cheap SETs sound bad. Buy one thats made by a custom builder with good parts.
You get what you pay for.
Just Joe
Blind testing of gear works: If it doesn't sound better with your eyes closed, then it doesn't sound better!
You are looking for both an amp and speakers?, posted on October 19, 2009 at 16:41:45
TimB5881
Audiophile

Posts: 559
Joined: September 5, 2001
 Well, you could buy a Dared 300B amp, about $700 w/o tubes (add another 100 or so for that), and for a speaker, I would say look at the Omega line, maybe the Horn Shop, or a DIY from Common Sense Audio

http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/

http://www.thehornshoppe.com

http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/

http://www.dared.us/
RE: Any inexpensive amp speaker combos to give a taste of SET?, posted on October 19, 2009 at 15:40:17
JimBop
Audiophile

Posts: 1085
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Joined: October 7, 2002
 If you can build the boxes, I'd recommend Pi speakers.
yes, you can. You may make best of ....under $2k, posted on October 19, 2009 at 12:27:17
SET tube
 here is.... costed may $$$$$$ and many years to figure this out.
Now it is free to give you....

I went through many of single driver spks during past years. Last few years I went through Lowther DX3, DX4 and finially stay with the top line of lowther: PM4A with DB recored under front horns. I thought I foud best spk for my SET. Wait, until I tried the Audio Nirvana 'Super 8 Alnico' driver.
It so close to my PM4 when I compare side by side and I am stuned that these drivers are 10x (no kidding) cheaper than PM4A.

You do need 300B to drive though, forget about 2A3 or 45 SET.
search online, you shall be able to $1000 range of 300B SEt amp.

What kind of box / baffle?, posted on October 19, 2009 at 12:52:34
SteveBrown
Audiophile

Posts: 1523
Location: Tulsa!
Joined: November 14, 2002
 Can you describe the box you use with these drivers? Do you need to supplement the bass? Thanks!

RE: What kind of box / baffle?, posted on October 19, 2009 at 13:01:14
SET tube
 sorry, I used separated subs, the drivers with front Oris horns.
Anyhow, for his budget under $2k, just get backhorn canbinets, they are cheap and widerly avaible. there is no room for such argement per sa under $2k. Just get a best drivers you can, that are most important for sonic benifits under $2k SET setup.

Audio Note Kit 1 $1750....or, posted on October 19, 2009 at 01:06:38
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 6143
Joined: August 8, 2001
 http://www.audionotekits.com/kit1mk2.html

Might be a good place to start since Audio Note is one of the top SET makers and relatively safe option. But if you don't like it I don't know how selling a Kit would do on the used market.

Or a newer kid on the block Grant Fidelity out of Canada has the A534B SET which I have not heard but their build quality is second to nobody and IMO looks gorgeous. Even has remote control - under $2k

Seems to get some nice press.
RE: Audio Note Kit 1 $1750....or, posted on October 19, 2009 at 12:25:37
Donald North
Manufacturer

Posts: 910
Joined: February 8, 2001
 A Kit 1 and some used two-way speakers like Celestion DL8 or Paradigms or similar will make a fun combo!

Donald North

RE: Audio Note Kit 1 $1750....or, posted on October 19, 2009 at 21:00:45
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 6143
Joined: August 8, 2001
 Hahaha - didn't read that the budget required speakers -- oops.

I'd boost the budget to $2,500 - $3,000 or probably skip the whole endeavor.

RE: Any inexpensive amp speaker combos to give a taste of SET?, posted on October 18, 2009 at 20:06:16
JustJoe
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Location: Essex
Joined: July 8, 2009
 "hearing the SET sound"

Robert,
There is no such thing as "the SET sound" anymore than there is the "solid state amplifier sound".
There are good SET/speaker combos and bad ones.
Ther eare good solid state amp/speaker combos and bad ones.

At their best, SET/speaker amp combos will make the music come alive and offer very good transparency and instrument decay.
At their worst, they will sound like clock radios.

Keep that in mind as you begin your journey. I suspect with the THiel's they will pretty much sound like a clock radio. You need high efficiency speakers, my friend. At least 92 db if you are using a 2a3 amp (preferably more) and at least 95 db if you are using a 45 amp (preferably more).

Just a bit of friendly advice.
Just Joe
Blind testing of gear works: If it doesn't sound better with your eyes closed, then it doesn't sound better!
RE: Any inexpensive amp speaker combos to give a taste of SET?, posted on October 18, 2009 at 21:33:50
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 5028
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
Contributor
  Since: July 1, 1999
 "...At least 92 db if you are using a 2a3 amp (preferably more) and at least 95 db if you are using a 45 amp..."

I do feel the need to point out that logically an 8 to 10 watt (typical) 300B amp will need only 88-89dB based on this criterion. The Thieles are 90dB on the 4 ohm tap. Plus, their unusually flat impedance makes them more tolerant of low damping factors. So they should do quite well.

Other than that, I agree in general. Specifically, some combinations are more magic than others, and a speaker that sounds great on one type of amp may not sound as good on another. And vice-versa, of course.

For myself, I more often than not prefer higher efficiency speakers and lower order crossovers in spite of their technical limitations - but it's a broad compromise and there's room for wide differences in what can be made to sound great.

Best Buy in Audio - Tekton Design 4.5 Speakers at $300 a pair..........., posted on October 18, 2009 at 07:01:00
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 6895
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000

My Best buy in Audio over the last 30 years has been the Tekton Design 4.5 Speakers. They are efficient enough to be driven to great music levels by my 45 SET amp.

This week I had to disassemble my HUGE horn System consisting of a Klipschorn Bass bin and Tweeters with an Altec Mid Range Multicell Horn and Driver. I was getting the horns painted. I brought my Tekton Design Speakers out into my main listening room and have been listening to Jazz all week with them. Most of the time I completely forgot that it is not my horn system playing, but the little 17.5 inch tall Tekton Speakers. These speakers give me about 95% of what my Complex horn system does. I am completely amazed at what a single 4.5 inch driver will do. In fact some of my friends prefer female vocals over my much more expensive speakers. You get these speakers direct from the builder/owner Eric Alexander who is a very nice honest guy, who also offers a 30 day trial period. I have no affiliation with Eric, other than being a very satisfied customer.

Couple these speakers with a good Used 2A3 or 45 SET amp like Welborne or Wright, Korneff, Don Allen that pop up on Audiogon for around $1400 and you've got a superb true SET system in your price range.

Here is a picture of mine. I popped for the Bubinga Burl Wood Veneer for an extra $200.




Cut-Throat
In your price range, Altec 604 variants in open baffle or Altec Model 19s, posted on October 18, 2009 at 06:20:12
Plinko
Audiophile

Posts: 1359
Location: N East, USA
Joined: July 21, 2005
 The other suggestions are great also.

I plan to have my Altec 19s for the rest of my life. As commented earlier, these Altecs won't go into really low bass but for a lot of music, works superb. I'm using 45 and 300B amps. The 300B am is better suited to the speakers but I'm amazed at the sound of the 45 amp with "cheap" transformers - Transcendar off ebay.

RE: Any inexpensive amp speaker combos to give a taste of SET?, posted on October 18, 2009 at 04:17:57
JANDG
Audiophile

Posts: 1564
Location: Washington State
Joined: February 27, 2004
 After you try a SET with your Thiels, you could pick up a pair of JBL SR4725 2-ways or SR4735 3-ways on the used pro market. I paid $600.00 for mine & see them go for 550-800 all day. They have superb drivers in them & allready sound good with factory passive XO, you can also run them active also. They are ugly as they are pro gear,but........if no WAF to worry about I would highly consider them. You will not see them mentioned hear as they are definately NOT audiophile approved type gear..*s* I run a 45 SET into a pair & they will do anything I ask & even chase me clean out of the room in shear volume. Bass does not go super deep so if 20-40 is a must then a sub is required for these.
Joe
Wisdom for today.........
A GREAT tube amp or speakers will allways be GREAT & bieng relevant today is irrelevant.
RE: Any inexpensive amp speaker combos to give a taste of SET?, posted on October 17, 2009 at 16:47:35
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 5028
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
Contributor
  Since: July 1, 1999
 The Stereophile review indicates 91dB/w/m at 4 ohms (94dB/2.83v/m), with a very flat and resistive impedance above the deep bass. The flat impedance makes it quite suitable for SET power. I'd say 12 watts would be enough for almost anyone, and I'd expect any SET with 6 watts or more to be pretty good as long as it has a 4 ohm tap. Even 2 watts (typical 45 amp) would be enough for quite a variety of music as long as you don't push it to really loud levels. Certainly plenty of power to "give a taste of SET sound".

In other words, go ahead and try an amp - you will know quickly whether you like the SET sound enough to pursue it. Just don't sell your old amp until you either get more sensitive speakers, or determine you don't need them.

RE: Any inexpensive amp speaker combos to give a taste of SET?, posted on October 17, 2009 at 19:30:37
robertd
Audiophile

Posts: 48
Joined: April 24, 2009
Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2009
 Paul, I appreciate your comments.

I'm really glad you think I can give SETs a shot with my Thiels.

I had looked at the fact that the speaker goes to -45degrees at around 4 to 5 ohms as a reason against using with SET. However, the thiel 2.3 or 2.4, can't remember which, had similar dip in impedance at a bump in negative phase, and stereophile ran it well with an SET.

I was worried that I might blow up the SET by running with the Thiels. Is this a risk, or is the biggest risk unacceptable sound, a risk (and a reality) I've come to live with.

RE: Any inexpensive amp speaker combos to give a taste of SET?, posted on October 17, 2009 at 20:15:17
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 5028
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
Contributor
  Since: July 1, 1999
 SET amps are in general quite robust - they will drive pretty much any load impedance without any kind of damage. They usually don't have any feedback, so feedback instability is not an issue. I have a friend who drives his electrostatic panels with an SET. That's an almost pure 90 degree phase angle capacitive load, and they sound extremely good, too.

The real issue about impedance fluctuations is frequency response, since the damping factor is modest (2 to 4 usually). Where the impedance rises to very high values, around 37Hz and 80Hz for the Thiele's, the response will rise a few dB - 2 to 4dB for the above-mentioned damping factors. At 50Hz the impedance is still 5 ohms vs. about 3.5 ohms over most of the range, so the response will be up maybe a dB there. These small fluctuations will be totally swamped by the room resonances; you may find a slight change of room position is desired but that's about it.

Some speakers (not the Thieles) have significant impedance dips, which have a larger effect.

Reactive impedances (inductive and capacitive) can produce a difficult load for any amplifier design, resulting in distortion at near full power. SETs are no exception, which is why you often see recommendations that the phas remain within +/-45 degrees or so. Speakers with really deep bass (again, not the Thiels) may have these reactive impedances at so low a frequency that the output transformer inductance makes this problem worse. Even so, it would cause no harm.

Hope that helps!

RE: Any inexpensive amp speaker combos to give a taste of SET?, posted on October 17, 2009 at 20:22:21
robertd
Audiophile

Posts: 48
Joined: April 24, 2009
Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2009
 Oh that does help. You've just turned me loose my friend.

RE: Any inexpensive amp speaker combos to give a taste of SET?, posted on October 17, 2009 at 12:18:32
JustJoe
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Location: Essex
Joined: July 8, 2009
 There is nothing like a good SET and a nice high efficiency speaker.

I would recommend buying speakers that are 95 db + in efficiency. Get an old Altec or klipsch horn based system (like a klipcsh forte or altec bolero). THis should set you back about $400-750.

Then get a nice 2a3 or 45 based SET with decent output trannies and built by someone who knows what they are doing (I find amps made here in the USA to be better built than overseas amps: you get what you pay for basically).
A decent US made amp should set you back $1000-$3000.

Then get a decent passive preamp or your favorite preamp, and source, and enjoy.
Warning: don't use a low fi source or preamp, it will be easily audible as bad.

Enjoy the world of SETs!
Just Joe
Blind testing of gear works: If it doesn't sound better with your eyes closed, then it doesn't sound better!
RE: Any inexpensive amp speaker combos to give a taste of SET?, posted on October 17, 2009 at 20:45:02
bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca
 I don't see horns for around $500 to $700?
Still if you DIY Full Range speakers I can see a pair in that ball park.
$300 Fostex drivers. $200 for plans and lumber.
It may be better to get your speakers first ( 8 ohm ) and match the amp
to them. BTW watch your low freq cut off, mini speakers tend fall out 100 HZ
range.

RE: Any inexpensive amp speaker combos to give a taste of SET?, posted on October 18, 2009 at 19:59:09
JustJoe
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Location: Essex
Joined: July 8, 2009
 "I don't see horns for around $500 to $700?"

THe 2 horn based speaker systems I mentioned (Klipsch forte or altec bolero) typically do sell for around $600. They are not pure horn based (very few systems are) but offer high efficiency with the help of a horn in the 1000 hz plus frequencies. Below that it's large woofer in BR box. BUt nevertheless very high efficiency.

A pure horn based system will be much more expensive, of course.
Gawd, audiophiles are nit pciky. I'd forgotten.
:)
Just Joe
Blind testing of gear works: If it doesn't sound better with your eyes closed, then it doesn't sound better!
Should be able to get Altec Valencias in the upper end of that range. nt, posted on October 18, 2009 at 06:09:03
Plinko
Audiophile

Posts: 1359
Location: N East, USA
Joined: July 21, 2005
 Though the Altec 19s are a lot better.

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