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Why SET?

74.171.105.218
Posted on August 5, 2009 at 12:35:15
musicfirst
Audiophile

Posts: 15
Joined: June 21, 2004
 Hello,

Been out of audio for a while, and starting to look at systems again.

I live in a town that does not have a shop with SET's, and the handful of good systems I have heard in larger cities have been driven by push-pull pentode tube.

From what I've read, systems seem to be split into two broad categories: Those that are trying to preserve the last ounce of low level detail, and those that are not.

I have not heard the Quad's (speakers), but I understand that they are excellent at preserving low level detail, but must be driven by larger push-pull amps.

Audio Note, on the other hand, is able to somehow preserve this detail in a dynamic speaker fed by SET's (for a heafty price).

Is this preservation of low level detail primarily what SET's are about? Or is it something else, like truth of timbre?

It would seem that an expensive push-pull pentode is going to out perform a cheap SET in every way, including truth of timbre and low level detail. Is this correct?

Definitely not wanting to debate here, just curious. Thanks.

 

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RE: Why SET?, posted on August 5, 2009 at 12:44:29
chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com
Reviewer

Posts: 10307
Location: Lancashire.
Joined: January 21, 2001
 "From what I've read, systems seem to be split into two broad categories: Those that are trying to preserve the last ounce of low level detail, and those that are not."


????????
What you been reading?



"It would seem that an expensive push-pull pentode is going to out perform a cheap SET in every way, including truth of timbre and low level detail. Is this correct?"

This is why I can't take your post seriously.
You come to the SET forum where people with SETs discuss SETs, and you basically ask them if push-pull are better in every way?

Why would people buy SETs if push-pull were better in every way, and if this were the case, why would you chose this forum to ask such a question?

Would you post a quesion on a Ferrari forum asking if Porshe was better in every way, and if you did, what do you think the answer would be?



"Definitely not wanting to debate here, just curious."

Yeah right.
Let the fun begin.



Today is a gift - that's why it's called the Present.

Best Regards,
Chris Redmond.

 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 5, 2009 at 13:12:04
CliffC.


 
I would say you are basically correct in saying that an expensive push-pull will outperform a cheap SET. Audio is like most things in life,you tend to usually get what you pay for and better quality tends to cost more.
That being said,one area or way in which maybe the tables can be turned is in DIY SET--if you have the skills and know which and where to get the best parts and pieces:In that case then a relatively inexpensive SET could outperform even most very expensive pp.

SET is just different than pp not necessarily better,unless you happen to value more highly the areas of peerformance in which it excels.AND you favor highly efficient speakers.

But when SET is done very well,which usually isn't cheap,it does seem to do things that no other topology or amplification type can match.

The more interesting comparison maybe would be between expensive pp and expensive set.

 

You're just gonna have to Listen to them and decide for yourself.........., posted on August 5, 2009 at 13:15:01
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18285
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 You can't buy an amplifier based on Specs and Price alone. Find an Audio guy with a good SET system in your area and ask for an audition. Most of them will be happy to oblige. I have given quite a few demos in my home.

This forum is a good place to start.




 

My, that's quite a territorial view of how these forums work!, posted on August 5, 2009 at 14:04:47
Bhasi
Audiophile

Posts: 790
Joined: July 9, 2001
 ... seeing off interlopers so that the in-group can be left undisturbed to stroke each others egos, without having to cope with anything too challenging? Fortunately, the Asylum's generally a more hospitable and informative place than your prickliness today suggests!

 

Go to an Audio Note dealer, posted on August 5, 2009 at 14:47:29
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 Listen to a level 3 or above SET amp (maybe the P4 Balanced or a Kegon Balanced monoblocks) through a decent speaker like an AN-E or Marten Designs Coltrane.

For a direct comparison at a lower price, compare the P1SE (a pentode) with the P1PP.

This is what sold me and how I answered your question for myself.

I have not heard that many SETs, but Audio Note or Lamms are miles ahead of the rest that I have heard.

 

RE: My, that's quite a territorial view of how these forums work!, posted on August 5, 2009 at 15:10:48
chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com
Reviewer

Posts: 10307
Location: Lancashire.
Joined: January 21, 2001
 I wouldn't have been so prickly if it wasn't for the fact he's already decided he's buying push-pull on another forum, so you tell me the purpose of his post and the motivation; doesn't exactly take a lot of working out.

If he wanted to debate the virtues of push-pull vs SETs then of course that's valid, but he says he wants no debate.

If he believes push pull must be superior to SET in every way and doesn't want to debate it, again, what's the motivation for his post?

Gotta get this prickliness outa me somehow! :0)


Today is a gift - that's why it's called the Present.

Best Regards,
Chris Redmond.

 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 5, 2009 at 16:45:16
sketti
Audiophile

Posts: 14
Joined: August 5, 2009
 frankly i'm surprise how far from the truth your generalizations are. that said, i think the answer that will help you the most is: SET fans love the engaging presense no other type of amplication can deliver, no matter the cost.

 

RE: My, that's quite a territorial view of how these forums work!, posted on August 5, 2009 at 16:54:17
NW Rain
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Location: Pacific North West
Joined: January 31, 2009
 More money does not always equal better performance. I hope the OP is satisfied with what he decides to get.

However, I don't think I understand why the original poster is comparing an expensive PP amp to a cheaper SET amp.

 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 5, 2009 at 17:19:53
musicfirst
Audiophile

Posts: 15
Joined: June 21, 2004
 CliffC.,

Thanks for your response.

"The more interesting comparison maybe would be between expensive pp and expensive set."

This is the main question I would be asking. Also between a cheap SET and cheap push-pull.

I always hear that SET's do something special (over push-pull), and I believe it. But I am trying to ask here what that thing is. Is it truth of tambour, preservation of low level detail, something else? I hear terms like "magical," "engaging," "beautiful," which I bet are accurate, but are not very descriptive.

Any specifics regarding the ways in which SET excel over push-pull would be helpful. Thanks.






 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 5, 2009 at 19:11:11
CliffC.


 
I think that, all things being equal,which they never are,of course,well done SET can and often does sound more like real musicians or real music being played in your room than does pp,usually.
There is something about single-ended triodes that seems to more easily or more fully capture the magic or essence of real music making than does pp,usually.There is a directness or immediacy,a lifting of veils,yes,a truth of timber,and richer,more fully developed tone.Also there is sometimes a more realistic sense of movement or flow--a more music like ordering of the notes.
But it can be elusive.That is why,I think,you see all the lingo about magic and what not.Sometimes it is hard to describe, or words seem to lack the completeness of what we hear.

What threw me off was the cheap SET vs. expensive pp.I don't believe that to be generally true.

I also believe that most if not all of the SET magic resides with the lower powered flavors--like the typically 8 watt 300b or below (there are some exceptions).Thus your realistic speaker choices become limited,maybe very limited--though it seems that is slowly improving.

The best quad set- up I ever heard was the 2805 being driven by a beefy 300b amp. I heard virtually the same system later but with pp EL34(I think) amps driving,and for me most if not all of the magic was gone.

BTW,I first got hooked on single-ended with ss--the Pass Labs Aleph 5 amp.It had a directness and immediacy like I had never heard before.

The magic is there,but don't think every little 1k kit amp is going to have much of it or be able to satisfy someone used to big sounding,complete sounding HiFi.

I'm out.
Cheers.

 

What is an expensive PP, what is a cheap SET?, posted on August 5, 2009 at 20:13:00
Adriel
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: San Diego
Joined: October 13, 2001
 Is $500 an expensive PP, is $3000 a cheap SET? That shows you the lopsided nature of how cost differs between the two. Is that what you had in mind?

 

Line by Line Response, posted on August 5, 2009 at 21:29:21
JustJoe
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Location: Essex
Joined: July 8, 2009
 >Hello,
HI
>Been out of audio for a while, and starting to look at systems again.
OK.
>I live in a town that does not have a shop with SET's,
No one does.
>and the handful of good systems I have heard in larger cities have been >driven by push-pull pentode tube.
So?

>From what I've read, systems seem to be split into two broad categories: >Those that are trying to preserve the last ounce of low level detail, and >those that are not.
I didn't realize systems could think and be motivated to have goals like this. I need to tell my systems to to do these things.
Oh, and here is another categorization of systems: systems where all components are totally black, and those that are not.
Here is one more: systems that have all Chinese components, and those that do not.
We could do this forever. Yippee.

>I have not heard the Quad's (speakers), but I understand that they are >excellent at preserving low level detail, but must be driven by larger >push-pull amps.
No idea how you reach this understanding: is it from reading what other middle aged, hard of hearing, Internet posters have said?

>Audio Note, on the other hand, is able to somehow preserve this detail in >a dynamic speaker fed by SET's (for a heafty price).
Is this what Audio Note says on their website?
>Is this preservation of low level detail primarily what SET's are about?
Nah.
>Or is it something else, like truth of timbre?
They sound good. I like "truth of timbre". I call it tonality.

>It would seem that an expensive push-pull pentode is going to out perform >a cheap SET in every way, including truth of timbre and low level detail. >Is this correct?
Yes. A well designed and built ANYTHING will outperform a poorly designed or built SOMETHING ELSE.

>Definitely not wanting to debate here, just curious. Thanks.
Good choice. You'd lose sadly in a debate.

Hope this helps.
Just Joe
Blind testing of gear works: If it doesn't sound better with your eyes closed, then it doesn't sound better!

 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 5, 2009 at 21:36:56
JustJoe
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Location: Essex
Joined: July 8, 2009
 SETs have more second order distortion and simpler circuits. They add stuff to the music that makes it sound good. Like a fatness.
help undo some of the damage the recording and mastering does, and create the illusion that such processes never happened.
So you feel you are listening to a "more live" performance.
Get it?
Now go get a good SET and listen instead of mentally masturbating about them.

Just Joe

Blind testing of gear works: If it doesn't sound better with your eyes closed, then it doesn't sound better!

 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 5, 2009 at 22:59:24
CliffC


 
I guess I have 1 more thing to have that might or might not be of help to you.
Everything that I have written in this thread has been peppered with qualifiers and been somewhat foggy.
I think that is because I have found a line of electronics that for me shattered or at least cracked a lot of the beliefs I had about SET vs, PP and the importance of directly heated triodes.
It is Shindo.
From it I have learned that what is paramount in amplification is not necessarily the mode or topology,but the quality of the parts and the talent of the designer/ builder.
Shindo's entry level amp is pp (and now comes in two versions).It has won over many formerly SET guys,even some who initially pooh poohed the growing reputation of Shindo gear here in the states.
It is the Montille and lists for around $4,000,I believe.I know of guys who have replaced SETs of the 845,45, and 2A3 with it and seem very pleased.Apparently it captures a lot of what SET is often noted for,but does it with 15 pp watts.
Point is,I don't really subscribe to any dogma in this area anymore.
Except that quality counts.
And I like Shindo.
Maybe you would,too.
15 watts opens up a few more speaker choices than,say,3 watts.
But Shindo's top amp IS a SET 300b.
So I do still lean that way.
But at any price point I am saying it is the designer,the parts,the trannies,more than simply PP or SET,IMO>

 

I hear what you're saying ...., posted on August 6, 2009 at 00:15:41
Bhasi
Audiophile

Posts: 790
Joined: July 9, 2001
 ... but I think it's one of the pluses of a place like this that you don't have to be as consistent as you might in real life. Whilst some members are very focussed a lot of the time, others, I'm sure, see this principally as a place to shoot the breeze, think out loud, play with ideas, even - dare I suggest? - fantasize. So, to build up and to stick too rigidly to an idea of 'the person behind the moniker' can be to be led up a gum tree! Sure, you need to have some idea of a person in order to engage with posts but it needs to be quite a loose one, I think.

The recent example of a member being barred from one of the sub-forums, posting innocuously on another, and having other members 'helpfully' fill the rest of us in on his previous 'record' - even claiming he was trying to 'rehabilitate' his image - just shows how ridiculous things can get.

Maybe it's the heat? Do we get more of these scraps in the summer, I wonder?

Anyway, this is also a safe place to vent, so I'm sure an occasional degree of prickliness is okay with most members, too!

 

I have two fairly well thought of PPs and one more expensive SET, posted on August 6, 2009 at 01:57:08
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 Neither the Rogue Atlas nor the Quick Silver Mini-Mites are in the same sonic ballpark as the Audio Note Meishu I have.

The difference: it sounds much, much more like real music.

The speakers - I am fond of pointing out - are 2-way 82dB efficient mini-monitors, on which almost all 8W+ Audio Note SETs sound very good.

 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 6, 2009 at 03:14:04
musicfirst
Audiophile

Posts: 15
Joined: June 21, 2004
 CliffC.,
Many thanks for the the thorough and detailed response. Also, interesting about the people switching from SET to pp Shindo.

 

RE: I hear what you're saying ...., posted on August 6, 2009 at 11:02:25
chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com
Reviewer

Posts: 10307
Location: Lancashire.
Joined: January 21, 2001
 "Maybe it's the heat? Do we get more of these scraps in the summer, I wonder?"

I'm just prickly because I've probably got swine flu at the moment and am feeling like crap, but also because posts like the original posters are just plain lazy and mischievous.

Again, I'd simply ask why has he posted a question which is more a statement of his belief and he doesn't want any debate about his belief?

If he really is 'just curious' about what anyone could possibly see in SETs when PP are obviously superior in every way, there's a wealth of info on this forum only a click away via the search function.

Just down the page there's a full thread discussing Push Pull vs SETs which would contain all the information the original poster claims he wants.
Yes, admittedly I'm prickly but I'm of the belief this was just a 'drive by' posting and not worth the effort of any thoughtful reply.

My replies are not thoughtful, just prickly. :0)

Grrrrrrrr...........


Today is a gift - that's why it's called the Present.

Best Regards,
Chris Redmond.

 

LoL! Get better soon! (nt), posted on August 6, 2009 at 11:31:15
Bhasi
Audiophile

Posts: 790
Joined: July 9, 2001
 .

 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 7, 2009 at 09:11:18
chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com
Reviewer

Posts: 10307
Location: Lancashire.
Joined: January 21, 2001
 "They add stuff to the music that makes it sound good. Like a fatness."

I'd say it's more a case of the best SETs not losing the body/fatness of a live performance in particular, because of the simpler circuit and less getting in the way.

The increased second order distortion is used by many to try and disparage SETs, but I believe it is of little significance in reality.

If second order distortion was the key to SETs attraction, manufacturers of every SS amp would add it to their designs and who'd want a flea powered SET?

If the original poster is interested about SETs because he's heard they might be better than push pull in one or two respects, I think perhaps he should also be asking about OTL designs of push-pull... :0)


Today is a gift - that's why it's called the Present.

Best Regards,
Chris Redmond.

 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 7, 2009 at 15:17:53
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7295
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
 SETs are different. And unfortunately, not in ways that correspond to the standard audiophile terminology. So until you have listened to them and lived with them a good while, you are just not equipped to interpret whatever words others might come up with to describe the differences.

That sounds pretty pompous, for which I apologize. I wrote it because that has been my own experience.

Transparency, inner detail, imaging, timbral accuracy, extension - these are all features which some amps and some speakers seem to have and others not. But none of them is unique to a particular topology.

The only consistent difference I hear is that the emotional content of the music comes over more strongly with SET designs. I can, and often have, spent hours speculating about why that is - but I do not have adequate consistent evidence to back up any of those speculations.

I do want to say that this is not the only criterion of excellence. We all have different needs and use our music reproduction systems to achieve different ends. A crappy SET amp will fail at many criteria and may not be as good overall as an expensive, brilliantly-designed P-P amp - but it will still do the emotional thing better. At least, that's what I usually hear.

 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 7, 2009 at 19:31:59
roli 10


 
no one
why?
Because it looks like Shindo do not know to manufacture better PP then his SET 300B
PP SHindo at $4000 is nice but that company believed that their SET are better

 

Fi 2A3 to Shindo push-pull, posted on August 7, 2009 at 22:40:51
restock
Audiophile

Posts: 841
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
 I hate to admit it but I was pretty skeptical at first but after hearing a Shindo PP Montille in my system against a Fi Super X 2A3 amp, it did not take longer than a few minutes of listening to be convinced. The Shindo just had more of everything - detail, richness, correct tonality, better bass and scale. And the Fi is certainly one of the better affordable 2A3 amps out there...
If I were not a physicist, I would probably be a musician. I often think in music.
- Albert Einstein

 

nailed it, this should be a "sticky" at the top :-), posted on August 7, 2009 at 22:53:42
sketti
Audiophile

Posts: 14
Joined: August 5, 2009
 couldn't have said it any better.

 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 10, 2009 at 12:33:16
musicfirst
Audiophile

Posts: 15
Joined: June 21, 2004
 Paul,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Found the answers to my questions elsewhere.

I apologize if I offended anyone by my perhaps inaccurate assumptions.



 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 10, 2009 at 16:13:49
JustJoe
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Location: Essex
Joined: July 8, 2009
 "I'd say it's more a case of the best SETs not losing the body/fatness of a live performance in particular, because of the simpler circuit and less getting in the way."

I disagree completely. If you use amps that measurably add or take away nothing to the signal (most good SS amps) and the signal sounds fatter with a SET amp (that has measurably higher second order distortion) then what would a rational, logical individual conclude?


"The increased second order distortion is used by many to try and disparage SETs, but I believe it is of little significance in reality."

Why should it disparage SETs? I listen almost exclusively to SETs, and love them. But I never fool myself into believing they are NOT coloring the signal. They just color it in a way that I like.


"If second order distortion was the key to SETs attraction, manufacturers of every SS amp would add it to their designs and who'd want a flea powered SET?"
they should. Except they have quaint things like "engineering parameters" to worry about, one of which is minimized distortion. Carver did distort his SS amps to sound tube like and guess what: they did.

The simple signal path is another matter. I like them, but honestly, a well designed SS with engineered 2nd order distortion and every other parameter as clear as a SET will probably smoke a SET in a blind test.
Sorry, but there it is.


Blind testing of gear works: If it doesn't sound better with your eyes closed, then it doesn't sound better!

 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 11, 2009 at 01:55:49
chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com
Reviewer

Posts: 10307
Location: Lancashire.
Joined: January 21, 2001
 "I like them, but honestly, a well designed SS with engineered 2nd order distortion and every other parameter as clear as a SET will probably smoke a SET in a blind test.
Sorry, but there it is."

Hey - don't ever apologise for giving your opinion.

For what it's worth I also disagree completely with you

"The simple signal path is another matter."

I'd say the simpler signal path is EVERYTHING, and no matter how much distortion is dialed into a SS amp the SS amp will always have more complex circuitry and will be a pale shadow of a good SET.

Bob Carver never made his amplifier sound like a good SET over twenty years ago and Stereophile used a high-powered amp with a 'unique sonic character' for him to duplicate; basically they used an obviously coloured amp so all Bob Carver had to do was replicate the colouration.

You get one of Bob Carver's amps made to sound tube-like and I'll smoke it with my SET no problem. Big difference between valve amps from twenty years ago and valve amps now, and also a big difference between source components, cables, amps in general etc.

Cold go on but we obviously have different views and experiences and are destined to be in disagreement - sorry! :0)




Today is a gift - that's why it's called the Present.

Best Regards,
Chris Redmond.

 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 12, 2009 at 08:45:23
Glowbug
Audiophile

Posts: 1728
Location: McLean, VA/Hillsborough, NC
Joined: December 4, 2005
 Why not? :-D

 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 12, 2009 at 15:11:33
JustJoe
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Location: Essex
Joined: July 8, 2009
 No problem.
Looks like we both enjoy SETs, just rationalize about them differently.

BTW, as a logical truism, if I disagree with your opinion, then you MUST disagree with mine. By definition.

:)
Enjoy that fat meaty sound.
I do.
Just Joe
Blind testing of gear works: If it doesn't sound better with your eyes closed, then it doesn't sound better!

 

RE: Why SET?, posted on August 12, 2009 at 23:36:18
chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com
Reviewer

Posts: 10307
Location: Lancashire.
Joined: January 21, 2001
 "Enjoy that fat meaty sound."

Must be listening to different SETs - I wouldn't enjoy a fat meaty sound. :0)


Today is a gift - that's why it's called the Present.

Best Regards,
Chris Redmond.

 

RE: Why SET? killer 3d sound stage and seperation of instruments, posted on August 14, 2009 at 06:57:35
Iain42
Reviewer

Posts: 895
Location: Arcansaw
Joined: February 10, 2004
 I moved on from SET and it turns out that was a mistake. However on this journey I've lived with some amazing amps and even the MC30's didn't get as much right as my Klispch Belles Canary Audio 300B SET and George Wright Preamp. That system is what I hold everything I listen to up to for comparison. 300B SET is the shiz!
High sensitivity, wide dynamic range, low distortion, and smooth frequency response. Pwk

http://www.itishifi.com

 

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