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So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?

97.34.193.249
Posted on November 8, 2015 at 14:55:08
geoffkait
 What's the deal with CD demagnetizers?

OK, I've got an innocent question. How do CD magnetizers work? I'm a little dissatisfied with reviewers' or anyone's ubiquitous comment, "I have no idea how it works but works it does." Whether it's the Radio Shack bulk tape eraser, the Walker Audio Talisman, or another demagnetizer, pretty sure Furutech sells them, too, what's the mechanism for how they work?

So, anyway, we all know that demagnetizing CD prior to play does improve the sound. If you haven't tried it trust me it works. But the closer you look at this phenomenon the more mysterious it becomes. The main question I have is even if there is some magnetic materials in the CD, you know, in the ink used for the CD label graphics or in the metal layer, surely the magnetic field arising there from must certainly be very very small, given that the ferrous impurities would by necessity be perhaps what less than 0.001 % of the material? But for the sake of argument let's say there is SOME (extremely minor) magnetic field in the material of the CD resulting from the ink and/or the metal layer, why would that mag field hurt the sound? And by the same token why would demagnetizing the CD improve the sound?

One assumes the magnetic field builds back up over time since the demagnetizers must be employed on the CD every so often. Even assuming some small magnetic field, any magnetic field, associated with the CD how would that affect the sound one way or the other? Anyone have any insights?

Geoff Kait

 

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RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 22, 2022 at 07:32:25
jrlaudio
Industry Professional

Posts: 76
Location: New York
Joined: November 2, 2012
 The simple answer ... when makers of vinyl de-static devices (a real thing that was useful) thought their market was drying up when it appeared vinyl might go away, they needed a product they could continue selling.

These things are highly dubious IMO and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Digital electronics, especially optical ones, are not affected by static or magnetic charges on a disc. One of the advantages of the format.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 23, 2022 at 12:10:24
geoffkait
 I'll be sure and not let anyone tell me otherwise. By the way, didn't you know you can't prove a negative?

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on June 15, 2017 at 04:29:48
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7054
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 The deal with cd demagnetizers is that a fool and his money are soon parted, or don't believe everything you read, that kind of advice against a cruel world comes first to my simple thoughts.

Jokes aside, one identifies sound only with the brain, and the brain has no self awareness. It decides what it hears , take it or leave it. If it gives you good information, or bad, that is all it knows, and the judgement is always subjective. If you think it sounds good ,it will, and does.

All the charlatan has to do is to make you think the product works, and then it, the suggested illusion, will work.

IN my years reading audio, this stuff comes and goes. It used to be a felt tipped marker was the Cd fixer upper, than a commercial product came out and it had to be a special color. I think you can still buy a magic clock for hi fi nuts, and the same company under discussion here also makes a vinyl (!) demagnetizer, but the special rocks are long gone. All 0f these products were very well reviewed, apparently by idiots. not being able to explain the results of your review by not understanding how the products works is weak, too thin for me and my poor little wallet.

A simple illustration of brain subjectiveness.One can see this easily with eyesight, and optical illusions.

Sometimes, unless it is explained to you , you miss the illusion, your brain doesn't see what the other guy sees, although it is always there for both. It is the brain that interprets the image, and it is always subjective . For instance, when people think they see ghosts, the ghosts wear clothes. How do ghosts get clothes, or need clothes, other than the brain has misfired and generated the image.

Sometimes one will stumble , an error while walking, and you realize you have made an error . The body has awareness, you know when a muscle misfires. Not so with the brain, where the reality is always subjective, and a misfire can be anything. As seen with brain disease, where people live in a long term false reality caused by mental illness, and not a passing simple suggestion, such as ,did you hear that?

If one considers hearing, it does some things better than others. One can easily hear a sound down the street, and know it is around the corner, even with the window closed. One knows this without thought. Pitch takes some concentration, and is often a learned skill.

With these results, It is suggested human hearing developed in the tall dry grass savannas. Where escape was the primary goal, not sonic accuracy. If you think you hear something, you run, to keep off the menu as special of the day. A misfire is no big deal ,not so with the food safety senses 0f taste or smell .

One knows the hand is quicker than the eye, everyone knows the hand doesn't leave the arm, it is just moving too fast for your optical system, so it is no longer visible. Few people consider how hearing works, it is not perfect, and is very prone to suggestion. Consider a smile and a refreshing beverage as a sonic upgrade before buying anything with results that can't be measured or function explained beyond buy it, it works.

This subjective stuff is slightly irritating to me, as is most intentional ignorance . When hi fi was new, test were made, and results were used as a way to understand the product. However, how to measure audio was also new, so some sonic results were not able to be measured. This "unable to know ' because the measures were being developed has stuck, in part because nothing will sound the same at different times, it is up to the brain to tell you how it sounds.
Just like if a guy in a lab coat handing you cheap wine in a fine old bottle and it tastes better.

With cars, performance can be measured. With audio, the finish line is in your head. But you can still buy a turd in either situation. Still, it you think it sounds better , that is your reality. Just don't pay too little or it won't work. I was once cruising the web and saw a single wooden hi fi knob for $450 with the statement is was sonic magic.

IN my personal experience, I was helping a buddy set up his new Bose 901 speakers, a trash design that used multiple midrange drivers only, with heavy signal processing to generate the bass and highs. I was plugging in wires and we were thinking if we could hear anything, sometimes we thought we heard something, as I tried different inputs. Then I plugged into the correct socket, and thinking we heard something was gone, we could easily hear the signal processor and the thinking I hear something was over. Yet for a while there, when we were trying to hear something, we thought we did, kind of, at times.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on January 15, 2021 at 19:10:42
Mushroom Soup
Audiophile

Posts: 310
Location: Western New York State
Joined: November 1, 2003
 Well, I was in a store once, back when cds were a new thing. A cd was playing and it sounded kind of horrible. I said "That sounds kind of horrible". He took out the cd, put it in a little handheld thing, put the cd back in and it sounded better. I certainly had no expectations needing to be fulfilled. I was in fact surprised. There are always going to be skeptics, but a lot of the time skepticism is just another word for ignorance.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on January 16, 2021 at 14:49:12
geoffkait
 What is perhaps even more shocking, and I use a handheld demagnetizer myself, is there can't possible be very much material anywhere on or inside a CD capable of being magnetized. Most likely the Earth's magnetic field is stronger than a CDs magnetic field when it's all charged up, so to speak. Yes, I'm aware that some theories of demagnetization include ferrous impurities in the metal layer and ferrous material in the ink used on the CD label, but come on!! Cut me some slack!

 

stuff I left out. , posted on June 15, 2017 at 12:44:54
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7054
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 After all that, I forgot to mention the solution to understanding illusion from audio fact. The double blind test. Where the merchandise is played behind a curtain, or out of sight, and listened to, with and without the object in question in he signal chain., enough times to figure it out.

I seriously doubt I could hear how a magnetic field would effect information carried by light in the infrared spectrum. AS far as magnetic vinyl , prove it. One would assume the magnets in the cartridge would be more of a concern.

 

RE: I hear substantial benefits from lifting the cables off the floor, posted on June 18, 2020 at 14:17:15
I'm an Audio God
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Location: S London
Joined: February 14, 2004
 Hi discussion. I thought i would jump in as i didn't think it is sensible/rational. However the only thing i can think of (and this could be BS, i don't know and don't have the facilities to test. But demaging a CD just before playing would induce eddy currents in the metalized layer which could heat it up a small amount.
If that effect is measurable which it should be -if it can be heard?
Who know's? just my thoughts, maybe others know more -so just throwing it out there.

 

RE: I hear substantial benefits from lifting the cables off the floor, posted on October 8, 2020 at 06:40:48
geoffkait
 Who's Eddy?

 

Another thing you left out BC , posted on June 18, 2017 at 16:50:22
Tweaker456
 You didn't try it.

 

easy to prove one way or the other, posted on May 13, 2018 at 16:40:07
BillWojo
Audiophile

Posts: 186
Location: NJ
Joined: July 7, 2017
 This whole post sounds like total BS to me but there is an easy way to prove it. Take a CD, listen to it and than spray some adhesive on the label side. Take a prerecorded length of magnetic tape and cut it into lengths to cover the label side. Now place this CD back into the CDP and listen to it. Sound the same? Well, it shouldn't according to the "TRUE BELIEVERS". Now demag it and play it again. Sound the same?
CD is an optical media. Get over it.

BillWojo

 

RE: easy to prove one way or the other, posted on May 14, 2018 at 11:23:09
Tweaker456
 Well I must say it is easy but not quiet as easy as doing a before and after test with just a demgnatizer, but that's just following like first grade logic, but please let us know how your easy test works out. Quite a few of us here would go way way out on a limb and speculate that your test, before the demag would in fact change the sound. As always some people can hear things and some can't. If after you spray a cd and put your tape on it, listen, and come to the conclusion that it did not effect the sound, more power to you. The less sensitive one is to changes in sound the less they have to do or worry about when going about improving one's system, if in fact that is a goal. The goal of nay saying, especially before actually trying things is the easiest of all. Tweaker456

 

RE: easy to prove one way or the other, posted on May 14, 2018 at 21:00:31
BillWojo
Audiophile

Posts: 186
Location: NJ
Joined: July 7, 2017
 Not going to waist my time on it. I gave a simple test procedure for anyone to try it out. Best would be to make two identical CD's with magnetic tape on it, one that has been demagged and one with recording on it. Then do a blind A/B test.
Just a small piece of magnetic tape would have WAY more magnetic property than a whole stack of CD's. So who's game?

BillWojo

 

RE: easy to prove one way or the other, posted on May 15, 2018 at 06:56:46
Tweaker456
 Why bother believing your own ears. Just foam on.

 

RE: A Serious Question., posted on December 16, 2016 at 01:24:46
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
 Ok guys, PLEASE don't tear me a new one if this idea is crazy because although I've been in this hobby for the past 50 years, I have absolutely no technical grasp on how most of the actual components work. So here's my serious question: "If CDs develop some sort of magnetic charge that must or should, be removed in order to achieve better sounding playback of the CD. Why not just have an electromagnet built into the CDP that bathes the CD in it's electromagnetic field when the CD is being played?" Wouldn't that do the same thing as a bulk tape eraser or other devices being used?


Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

Whoa! What?, posted on December 16, 2016 at 04:07:30
geoffkait
 Why would you want to bathe the CD in a magnetic field? We're trying to get rid of magnetic fields. Maybe you mean an on-board demagnetizer that could be activated every so often by pushing a button.

 

How about encasing the mechanism?, posted on July 4, 2016 at 11:51:33
Bry
Manufacturer

Posts: 5610
Location: S. Florida
Joined: July 21, 2005
 Most CD players have the mechanism sitting in the open in the enclosure. If it were encased in a shield it seems like you get some benefit without having to mess with each CD.

 

RE: How about encasing the mechanism?, posted on July 6, 2016 at 04:23:46
geoffkait
 Good idea. I'll try it.

 

RE: How about encasing the mechanism?, posted on July 22, 2016 at 11:43:11
JURB
Audiophile

Posts: 2056
Location: North Ohio
Joined: May 29, 2016
 I had to jump through so I do not know if this has been covered - but whole ordeal indicates a lack of understand of how a CD works.

The pits in a stamped CD are ¼ wavelength of light which causes a cancellation of the reflected beam. With a burned CD they are a layer of photographic type material in the layer which is darkened by the burning LASER.

A magnetic field does not affect either, this is physics, this is fact and indisputable.

For a magnetic field to affect the output of the LASER pickup it would have to be such a strong field that it would affect the LASERs ability to focus. The layer of whatever on the CD, burned or stamped simply does not have the mass to have such a field.

Facts of life folks, waste your money on something else. Otherwise, I got some DVD rewinders for sale.

 

RE: How about encasing the mechanism?, posted on July 26, 2016 at 13:19:28
geoffkait
 That's all what I already stated more or less in my OP. And that's precisely my whole point. That there's no obvious way that demagnetization of CDs should work. Yet we have the testimony of a gaggle of audiophiles that demagnetization of CDs works. Are they are all hallucinating?

 

RE: How about encasing the mechanism?, posted on August 8, 2016 at 18:14:39
horn kid
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Joined: November 2, 2014
 Oh, they work, as well as VPI Magic Bricks (gee, everyone needed them, then nobody....), Mpingo Wood blocks (so many rooms at shows needed them, but those same exhibitors now don't....must be the hotels built them in), Shakti Stones, and all the other totally useless crap that works only in the imaginations of audiophiles......for a discreet period of time.....then stop working......

But repeat over and over: "I hear it, I hear it, I hear it, I hear it...." and eventually you won't be worried about real life, your insecurities, your imperfections, you know your system is perfect because the monk selling the stuff told you, the reviewer on that site told you.....and all is well in that nice dream world of audio accessories.

 

RE: How about encasing the mechanism?, posted on October 22, 2016 at 09:33:44
geoffkait
 Always nice to hear from the hoi polloi. Sorry to hear of your non success with tweaks. Thats a shame.

 

RE: How about encasing the mechanism?, posted on May 28, 2020 at 21:09:22
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Mu Metal


Too much is never enough

 

RE: How about encasing the mechanism?, posted on July 24, 2016 at 16:36:43
Tweaker456
 One big problem with your analisis JURB is that it does have a fairly obvious effect on the sound of a cd. Have you ever actually tried it, pray tell? I just hate having to agree with Geoff on something. Tweaker

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on May 26, 2016 at 07:07:07
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 Theory! Do you know what it is?

Your words.
Quote:

Right, and the use of paste type contact enhancers such as Quicksilver Gold (pure silver spiked with gold) ensures a consistent and thorough contact of the fuse end caps with the fuse holder. And guess what? The fuses are still directional. Is this a good time to mention the elephant in the room - wire directionality? Not just fuse directionality, but directionality of interconnects, speaker cables, the wire in transformers, the wire in capacitors, internal wiring in electronics, the wiring in speakers and speaker crossovers, you name it. And power cords - even though they are in an AC circuit. Perhaps even RCA connectors and other stamped, rolled or drawn metal used in electonics. Maybe even fuse holders, though not for the reason suggested yesterday.

Theory! What has proven the Theory to be true, by some, but not all? Those that have actually taken the time to experiment and listen for themselves.


You repeatedly asked how, why,of proof, a CD can be magnetized. And how that can have a impact on the sound heard from an audio system. You want proof, other than someone can hear a difference, after the same CD is demagnetized.
Unlike your quoted material, I gave above, which is based on theory and not facts, other than it can be heard. That's fine with you though.... Just the fact that switching the direction of a cable or fuse can change the sound. All theory.... Proven by the listener.


.

.

Quote from link below. Again.....
Theory.

Furutech RD-1 CD Demagnetizer

Now, how on earth might the Furutech somehow reduce contaminating noise? What is there in a CD that might cause contaminating noise, and that might need demagnetizing? And how does a CD get re-magnetized by being played, such that it benefits from further demagnetizing after a few plays?
The Furutech people have two simple answers. Ink and impurities. The whole surface of a CD is covered with ink, to make up the printed label. These inks contain pigments, some of which are ferrous, hence permeable. The Furutech people also suggest that the aluminum in the reflective layer might well contain impurities, including iron.
Now, the CD rotates pretty fast (200 to 500 rpm), and any ferrous material will gradually become slightly magnetized over time if it is rapidly moving in a magnetic field (the earth's magnetic field will do, but there are doubtless other magnetic fields as well within a CD player). All right, so we have a CD with some slightly magnetized pieces of ink, spinning around inside your CD player. How does that cause contaminating noise in your music?
Let's assume that the brown pigment in brown ink is ferrous, and let's assume that some small lettering on the CD label is printed in brown ink. Let's assume that there are about 50 letters in the small lettering, which means that there are about 100 vertical ferrous bar magnets (for example, the letter H has two vertical bars), rotating around with the CD. These rotating bar magnets are putting an electromagnetic noise field into the space and air inside your CD player. If the CD is rotating at 8 Hz (480 rpm), and there are 100 discrete bar magnets going around at 8 Hz, then they are putting out noise with a fundamental at 800 Hz, together with all kinds of overtones spread upward throughout the rest of the musical spectrum (if we were to assume the bar magnets were purely rectangular and put out noise that looks like a square wave, there would be overtones at 2400 Hz, 4000 Hz, 5600 Hz, etc.)

You can see that this contaminating noise thrown into the air is rich in high frequency spectral content, so it would be most destructive of music's higher frequencies and of singular, non-repeating musical transients, if it were to somehow interfere with the music signal inside your CD player. And, if a CD treatment like the Furutech could reduce this high frequency contaminating noise, then we would expect to hear the sonic improvements being most dramatic for music's trebles and for its singular transients - which is exactly what we do hear.
Given that this noisy electromagnetic field is radiating into the space and air inside your CD player, how could it come to actually contaminate your music? After all, your music signal is safely traveling inside the conducting wires of the CD player's circuitry, isn't it? So who cares if there's spurious electromagnetic noise in the air outside these wires, right?
Well, it turns out that electromagnetic fields in the space and air just outside your CD player's wiring can also penetrate into that wiring, so if that field comprises contaminating noise, then that noise can add to or interfere with the signals in your CD player's wiring. The analog circuitry in your CD player is certainly vulnerable to signal degradation by interference from noise, but so also is all the digital circuitry in your CD player. Why? First, that so-called digital circuitry is actually analog circuitry, operating with precise thresholds and precise currents, whose level and/or precise timing can be contaminated, degraded, or made less determinate by noise. Second, it is now widely recognized that merely adding noise to a digital signal in your CD player can worsen jitter (by making thresholds more temporally indeterminate), which in turn worsens distortion of your music when that timing indeterminacy reaches your DAC chip. If the interfering noise has high frequency content, then this can cause high frequency jitter, which is especially destructive of music's higher frequencies, causing smearing kinds of distortion (from FM distortion sidebands spread over a wide and high frequency range).
Furthermore, it turns out that the desired signals running around in the wiring of your CD player are not really traveling inside the wires, but instead are actually traveling as electromagnetic fields in the space and air outside those wires - in the very same space and air also occupied by the noisy electromagnetic field from those spinning magnets on the CD. Since the desired CD player signals, representing your music, and the noise from the spinning CD magnets are both mixing it up in the same space and air, naturally there is cross contamination.

Is the spinning CD a spinning dynamo?

Why is it so difficult for you to understand the theory of a CD being magnetized/demagnetized and having a change on how the CD will sound in an audio system? Is it some kind of mental block in you mind?

You of all people, I consider a tweaker, can't accept the theory. Won't even take the time to experiment and listen for yourself to prove the theory wrong in your mind.

http://www.iar-80.com/page53.html (Open in New Window)

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on May 26, 2016 at 13:27:51
geoffkait
 To my knowledge, unless proven otherwise, nobody has ever shown that inks used on CD labels to contain ferrous elements or the aluminum or gold or alloy metal layer in CDs to contain any ferrous elements. Furutech is simply trying to come up with some "reasonable explanation" why their expensive demagnetizer works. It makes no difference to me who they are, manufacturer, whatever. They're not even the first manufacturer of demag devices so please give me a break. Now, unless you can provide one shred of evidence that either the ink is magnetizable or the metal layer is magnetizable I fear we are at an impass. See if you can lift the CD with a powerful magnet. Bet you can't.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on June 16, 2016 at 13:52:46
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 It would be SIMPLE to test.
You need a coil of wire, a DRILL (or dremel, better yet) and a DVM.
SPIN the CD at high speed. Hold the coil close to the CD and measure for MV. (Milivolts)
Experiment with orientation of coil. Voltage should be in some way proportional to rotation speed.

Done and done.

Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on June 18, 2016 at 09:02:51
Tweaker456
 I get 14mv. It sounds pretty good also when I demag the cd. T

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on June 18, 2016 at 09:42:40
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 More data needed.
Does voltage RISE with rotation Speed? I would ALSO expect sensitivity to COIL ORIENTATION. This would depend on the SHAPE of the coil. I would use a long coil, with a couple hundred feet of #30 or so magnet wire around a #10 x 2 1/2" machine screw. When I made such a coil for an experiment, I used washers at each end which I had INSULATED with CORK.

Orienting long way with the radius should be a different effect than PERPENDICULAR TO the radius.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on June 19, 2016 at 09:28:06
Tweaker456
 Yeah PG, That's what I did already. I also tried demagnetizing CD's a long time ago and liked the result. I do it every time before I listen. T

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on November 20, 2016 at 22:34:10
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Well, everybody DOESN'T know it works.

And if the CD IS magnetic in some fashion, the voltage generated in my coil experiment should drop a LOT when comparing before and after demagnetization.

Has anyone tried THAT?
Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on June 19, 2016 at 10:20:31
geoffkait
 Everybody and their brother knows it works. The question I posed in the OP is why? Hel-loo!

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on May 22, 2016 at 21:36:55
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 Exactly why or how it works I don't know.

From personal experience and experimenting I found it does work.

I have a old Bedini Ultra Clarifier. I used to have a web link of the patent Bedini applied for when he invented the thing but lost it years ago and have not been able to find it since.

Bedini did not say it demagnetized the disc. It aligned something.

Yes CDs can be magnetized. Some more than others. Yes the ink/dye used on the label can have ferrous materials in it. Even the aluminum disc can have impurities in it that are ferrous/magnetic.

What I found from experimenting.

Labels that use dark, brown, red, blue, black, and green, can be magnetized.

A spin in the Bedini, both sides, can have an impact on the SQ of the CD.

A tape demagnetizer will have a slight change on the SQ of the CD but not as much as the Bedini.

A simple test if you have a CD with a dark color label, say dark red or dark blue. You will need a strong permanent magnet.

First listen to the CD to familiarize yourself with it again.
Next take the strong permanent magnet and move the magnet over both sides of the CD without actually contacting the CD.
Next play the CD again and listen for differences in the CD.

I have recorded an untreated CD on a CD-R music recorder and then given the same CD a spin, both sides, in the Bedini and then recorded it again on another blank CD-R music disc.

The two finalized CD-R CD clearly sound different from one another. I have even taken an untreated CD and recorded a few songs on a CD-R, then treated the CD in the Bedini and recorded the same songs on the same CD-R CD. Finalized the CD-R and again the recorded untreated songs clearly sounded different than the treated recorded songs.

I have even taken the recorded CD-R/s to a B&M Dealer in my area and played the CDs on his equipment. Marantz and Cambridge CDPs. There was no mistaking the differences in sound of the CDs.

I also found CDs with a silver color label, the Bedini made little difference or none to the sound.

I also found if a silver color label CD sounded bright, like some in the early 1990s a spin, both sides, in the Bedini made the CD sound even worse.

Here is one for you. I Found if a finalized CD-R was given a spin in the Bedini it dulled the sound and basically ruined the CD-R CD.

If a blank CD-R was given a spin in the Bedini first before is was recorded/burned the Final product sounded fine.

http://www.hifido.co.jp/photo/10/852/85201/c.jpg


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Quote from link below.

Furutech RD-1 CD Demagnetizer

Now, how on earth might the Furutech somehow reduce contaminating noise? What is there in a CD that might cause contaminating noise, and that might need demagnetizing? And how does a CD get re-magnetized by being played, such that it benefits from further demagnetizing after a few plays?
The Furutech people have two simple answers. Ink and impurities. The whole surface of a CD is covered with ink, to make up the printed label. These inks contain pigments, some of which are ferrous, hence permeable. The Furutech people also suggest that the aluminum in the reflective layer might well contain impurities, including iron.
Now, the CD rotates pretty fast (200 to 500 rpm), and any ferrous material will gradually become slightly magnetized over time if it is rapidly moving in a magnetic field (the earth's magnetic field will do, but there are doubtless other magnetic fields as well within a CD player). All right, so we have a CD with some slightly magnetized pieces of ink, spinning around inside your CD player. How does that cause contaminating noise in your music?
Let's assume that the brown pigment in brown ink is ferrous, and let's assume that some small lettering on the CD label is printed in brown ink. Let's assume that there are about 50 letters in the small lettering, which means that there are about 100 vertical ferrous bar magnets (for example, the letter H has two vertical bars), rotating around with the CD. These rotating bar magnets are putting an electromagnetic noise field into the space and air inside your CD player. If the CD is rotating at 8 Hz (480 rpm), and there are 100 discrete bar magnets going around at 8 Hz, then they are putting out noise with a fundamental at 800 Hz, together with all kinds of overtones spread upward throughout the rest of the musical spectrum (if we were to assume the bar magnets were purely rectangular and put out noise that looks like a square wave, there would be overtones at 2400 Hz, 4000 Hz, 5600 Hz, etc.)

You can see that this contaminating noise thrown into the air is rich in high frequency spectral content, so it would be most destructive of music's higher frequencies and of singular, non-repeating musical transients, if it were to somehow interfere with the music signal inside your CD player. And, if a CD treatment like the Furutech could reduce this high frequency contaminating noise, then we would expect to hear the sonic improvements being most dramatic for music's trebles and for its singular transients - which is exactly what we do hear.
Given that this noisy electromagnetic field is radiating into the space and air inside your CD player, how could it come to actually contaminate your music? After all, your music signal is safely traveling inside the conducting wires of the CD player's circuitry, isn't it? So who cares if there's spurious electromagnetic noise in the air outside these wires, right?
Well, it turns out that electromagnetic fields in the space and air just outside your CD player's wiring can also penetrate into that wiring, so if that field comprises contaminating noise, then that noise can add to or interfere with the signals in your CD player's wiring. The analog circuitry in your CD player is certainly vulnerable to signal degradation by interference from noise, but so also is all the digital circuitry in your CD player. Why? First, that so-called digital circuitry is actually analog circuitry, operating with precise thresholds and precise currents, whose level and/or precise timing can be contaminated, degraded, or made less determinate by noise. Second, it is now widely recognized that merely adding noise to a digital signal in your CD player can worsen jitter (by making thresholds more temporally indeterminate), which in turn worsens distortion of your music when that timing indeterminacy reaches your DAC chip. If the interfering noise has high frequency content, then this can cause high frequency jitter, which is especially destructive of music's higher frequencies, causing smearing kinds of distortion (from FM distortion sidebands spread over a wide and high frequency range).
Furthermore, it turns out that the desired signals running around in the wiring of your CD player are not really traveling inside the wires, but instead are actually traveling as electromagnetic fields in the space and air outside those wires - in the very same space and air also occupied by the noisy electromagnetic field from those spinning magnets on the CD. Since the desired CD player signals, representing your music, and the noise from the spinning CD magnets are both mixing it up in the same space and air, naturally there is cross contamination.


Is the spinning CD a spinning dynamo?



 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on May 23, 2016 at 03:53:34
geoffkait
 Jea48 wrote,

"I have found from personal experience that it does work."

Whether it works or not was not the reason for my OP. I realize several theories such as the ones you describe have been suggested for WHY demagnetizers work. I just don't buy them. If you wish to buy them that's your call.

Geoff Kait

 

6Moons, posted on May 23, 2016 at 10:34:23
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 Link below:

 

Big yawn, posted on May 25, 2016 at 18:07:55
geoffkait
 The CD is wobbling and vibrating so much already the laser and servo mechanism can hardly keep up. A little magnetism isn't going to change that. Nell, the scattered light issue is worse than the magnetism by far. The photos in the 6 Moons article are totally unconvincing.

 

Maybe this will help., posted on May 23, 2016 at 10:32:04
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 Link below:

 

RE: Maybe this will help., posted on May 23, 2016 at 12:53:10
geoffkait
 Even if the ink used on the CD label is slightly magnetic due to trace ferrous elements the resulting magnetic field would not be large enough to have any effect on the laser beam or on any wiring in proximity to the laser. If you choose to believe what Furutech says that's OK with me. I choose not to. The magnetic field from a transformer or wven an AC wire nearby would far outweigh the puny magnetic field produced by the ink, assumed there is one, which I actually doubt.

 

And yet it does. Imagine that. nt., posted on May 23, 2016 at 13:10:28
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 nt.

 

You realize, just saying it does doesn't actually mean that it does., posted on May 23, 2016 at 13:14:25
geoffkait
 OK, Mr. Smarty Pants, let's assume for the sake of argument that there is a small magnetic field resulting from the ink. How do you propose that magnetic field results in degraded sound? And how do you propose demagnetizing the ink produces improved sound?

 

You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 23, 2016 at 17:21:05
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 Question?

What proof do you have the magnetism of the spinning CD does not have an impact on final sound?

Have you ran any tests? Do you have any hands on experience on the subject? You appear to be totally blind on the subject.

I supplied you with plenty of reading material on the subject.
Did you take the time to read any of it?

Before you ask anymore questions you should take the time and perform some simple tests on your own. You might even have some fun in the process.

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 24, 2016 at 04:19:52
geoffkait
 Ah, just as I suspected. You don't have an idea why demagnetization affects the sound. That's OK, neither did the reading material you provided.

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 24, 2016 at 08:35:51
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 geoffkait said:
That's OK, neither did the reading material you provided.


Sure it did. You just have a problem comprehending what you read.
The simple fact is you are too damn lazy to try and experiment for yourself. You can lead a horse to water Geoff, but,....

Quote:

Right, and the use of paste type contact enhancers such as Quicksilver Gold (pure silver spiked with gold) ensures a consistent and thorough contact of the fuse end caps with the fuse holder. And guess what? The fuses are still directional. Is this a good time to mention the elephant in the room - wire directionality? Not just fuse directionality, but directionality of interconnects, speaker cables, the wire in transformers, the wire in capacitors, internal wiring in electronics, the wiring in speakers and speaker crossovers, you name it. And power cords - even though they are in an AC circuit. Perhaps even RCA connectors and other stamped, rolled or drawn metal used in electonics. Maybe even fuse holders, though not for the reason suggested yesterday.


All BS according to you Geoff, Right? NO? Prove it. You can't, can you Geoff?

Where is the proof? Try your best to answer the question if you can Geoff.
Be sure to use the same logic as you have used on your responses on this thread. "Where's the beef?"


 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 24, 2016 at 13:51:02
geoffkait
 Ah, name calling is your way out. I didn't see that coming. I guess it was only a matter of time before your brain imploded. My suggestion: go back to school.

That you were still unable to answer my question is duly noted. Over and out.

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 24, 2016 at 14:12:51
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
geoffkait said:
Ah, name calling is your way out. I didn't see that coming. I guess it was only a matter of time before your brain imploded. My suggestion: go back to school.

That you were still unable to answer my question is duly noted. Over and out.

Name calling? 'Whatcha talkin bout Willis'?


AGAIN!

geoffkait said:
That's OK, neither did the reading material you provided.

Sure it did. You just have a problem comprehending what you read.
The simple fact is you are too damn lazy to try and experiment for yourself. You can lead a horse to water Geoff, but,....

Quote:

Right, and the use of paste type contact enhancers such as Quicksilver Gold (pure silver spiked with gold) ensures a consistent and thorough contact of the fuse end caps with the fuse holder. And guess what? The fuses are still directional. Is this a good time to mention the elephant in the room - wire directionality? Not just fuse directionality, but directionality of interconnects, speaker cables, the wire in transformers, the wire in capacitors, internal wiring in electronics, the wiring in speakers and speaker crossovers, you name it. And power cords - even though they are in an AC circuit. Perhaps even RCA connectors and other stamped, rolled or drawn metal used in electonics. Maybe even fuse holders, though not for the reason suggested yesterday.

All BS according to you Geoff, Right? NO? Prove it. You can't, can you Geoff?

Where is the proof? Try your best to answer the question if you can Geoff.
Be sure to use the same logic as you have used on your responses on this thread. "Where's the beef?"

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 24, 2016 at 15:53:58
geoffkait
 Did you forget to take your meds today?

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 24, 2016 at 17:41:26
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 That you were still unable to answer my question is duly noted.

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 25, 2016 at 05:05:49
geoffkait
 This discussion is not about wire directionality, it's about why a magnetized CD (assuming that's even possible) interferes with the sound. If you wish to debate wire directionality feel free to start a thread on the subject. I'm only asking for evidence or even a theory to back up your claim that magnetism is bad for the sound. One sentence will suffice.

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 25, 2016 at 07:16:42
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 Quote from Link below:

The three-dimensional graphs to the right were generated by a SPECTRA PROFET analyzer. The vertical axis represents time, the horizontal line shows frequency, and the height of the crests equates relative amplitude in dB.


Graphs 1 and 4 are pre, 2 and 3 post demagnetization.


According to the company's comments (which suffered marginally in their translation from the Japanese original), the 1kHz signal in graph 1 shows not only edge non-linearities but also white blank fields believed to be caused by reading errors.


Additionally, there are irregularities and excessive amounts of small crests in the 2 to 5KHz region.


After demagnetization, the 1kHz component shows up perfectly solid, the former signal dropout portion filled in and the upper edge non-ragged. The non-linearities in the upper bands turned uniform, and the height of the crests increased.


Furutech's engineers believe this is visible proof of improved S/N ratio and a reduction of read-error distortions.


Graphs 3 and 4 show an actual music signal, with graph 3 post-demagnetization. The encircled areas clearly show filled-in signal and increased crest height, indicating -- according to Furutech -- both improved data retrieval and once again extended dynamic range.


In other measurements accompanying my printout of their e-mail document, Furutech measured music signal in the areas of output power level, THD and S/N ratio. After treatment with their admittedly newer and improved RD-2 unit, output power level increased by 0.58dB, THD decreased by 1.12% and S/N ratio improved by 0.181%.


While these attempts at quantifying degaussing effects are genuinely laudable, they do show up as rather diminutive quantities generated by state-of-the-art machinery. How about our ears? (As it turns out in many experiments, human hearing often perceives things we can't -- or don't know how to -- measure while the reverse can also hold true.) To minimize the placebo effect, I dug into this tech data after my listening impressions had formed. Which moves us now from having this easy pie to consuming it.


Subjective human response

I started off with Zoltan Lantos' Eclipse [TR-2010], a phenomenally otherworldly solo violin album. The effects were subtle and obviously not repeatable with just one copy. Still, I felt certain that the RD-1 had shaved off a certain edge. The violin's overtones and 16 sympathetic strings were cleaner but lacked a degree of harshness, glare or raspiness. Let's call it enhanced smoothness without loss of resolution, perhaps a 10-15% improvement.


Can you relate to musical curtsies, the kind of formal movements period movies depict during baroque dancing? "An Sumnia" is one of my favorite tracks on Thierry 'Titi' Robin's Un Ciel de Cuivre [Naive Y225091], an authentic Gipsy caravan celebration around an -- imaginary -- camp fire. This track -- which by now I know by heart -- features a limping 5-based rhythm that the musicians execute with a very distinct "curtsy", a kind of elastic miniature suspension of the beat. The sense of "sub-beat" subtlety post-treatment was significantly enhanced as though whatever the degaussing had accomplished improved the tune's timing cues.


Another phenomenon pointing at the prior violin example was a change in the singer's metallic timbre so prized by the Gitanos. It didn't seem subdued but sounded more naturally the result of a human throat rather than electronic grittiness. I also involuntarily reached for the Bel Canto preamp's remote and cut volume by 1dB on its display.


When I got around to reading the above engineering data, I wasn't entirely surprised to see the claimed 0.58dB increase in measured output. I can't say whether the overall volume seemed louder or the peak output differential stretched. My reaction was simply spontaneous and unmeditated. This makes it inherently more trustworthy than elaborate justifications during explorations as fraught with potential exaggeration as these.


Trying El Potito's Mia pa los restos [Nuevos Medios 15 688], the before/after difference was similar to Robin's. Rhythmic events had more tautness and intrinsic tension, and minor inflective accents seemed stronger. Exploring other CDs, I eventually concluded that the improvements with complex material seemed more pronounced, as though more complicated signal equated more raw substance to be cleansed of whatever the RD-1 removed or straightened out.


Reserving final conclusions for the follow-up report when the RD-2 arrives, I'll leave you with the following comments today: The Furutech device does not work gratuitously in the frequency response domain. Different listeners would immediately latch onto aberrations or changes. Rather, its gentle touch affects the realm of timbre, rhythmic coherence and overall musical gestalt. That latter is hard to quantify. Let's just say that sounds assume a closer likeness to feeling real. On certain tracks this appeared more overt than on others, such as the background restaurant cues of silver ware moving in trays on Cielo's concluding bolero. Hearing the common rattle of silver ware had that unmistakable rightness of ... familiarity? (Yes, reviewers do dishes, even though their daily intake of musical calories is sometimes less than it should be.)


What's it mean?

I'm reminded of an old, well-worn simile - that of multiple window panes each adding their own fine contributions to distorting what is seen. As we remove one pane after the next, clarity continues to improve. But something more profound happens when we get to the last one. The degree of visual distortion removed is no larger a step than any of the preceding ones. Still, our senses, when finally admiring the landscape without any glass buffer but directly, undiluted, respond disproportionately strong. The change goes beyond simply seeing. It's become a more complete experience. Which of course is true - now we feel the air, smell the breeze and shoot it endlessly afterwards.


Something of that sort happened with the Furutech time and again. Hard to explain yet rather reliably felt. A cop-out weenie of a description? Perhaps, but it' the best I can do for now. Check back in a month or two when Harmonic Technology, the new importer, has the RD-2 in stock. At that time, I will also experiment with treating interconnects and other cables. They apparently can be coiled inside the RD's well and treated just like a CD, DVDs, metal terminals and sundry other goodies. For now, I confess to being rather taken by this device. Unlike the Bedini whose potential benefits eluded my ears more often than not, fellow pilgrim Sturdevant really is onto something here. If he wants this thing back -- and of course he does unless his vacation turns permanent, lucky devil -- the extent of my grief shall be the real arbiter of Furutech's invention. To be continued.



 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 25, 2016 at 08:02:18
geoffkait
 If you're trying to convince me that you can't understand my question you're doing an excellent job. Look, stop for a moment, take a deep breath and listen to my question rather than giving me this whole so-called explanation you copied from somewhere. And one that actually doesn't address my question.

The question is, what does a magnetized CD do to degrade the sound? You can answer that it affects the laser or it affect the circuitry for the laser servo or that it affect the signal. But that is what I'm looking for.

I'm not interesting in all this rigamarole how the CD gets magnetized. I'm already giving you that (for the purposes of the discussion). Show me anything that suggests, theorizes, indicates or illustrates that something in the player is affected by the magnetic field that would be SUFFICIENT to degrade the sound. I am letting you assume the CD is magnetizable. Now, it's your job to give some evidence, any evidence that the magnetic field is BAD and that demagnetizing the disc is GOOD. Keep in mind the magnetic field has to be BIG ENOUGH to actually affect something, it's not sufficient to say well, there is some minuscule teen weeny field a few micro Gauss bigger than the Earth's magnetic field.

NOTO BENE - Even the article you linked to admits THE DIFFERENCES IN MEASURED DATA ARE TOO SMALL TO BE AUDIBLE. Hel-loo! Wake up and smell the coffee!

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 25, 2016 at 08:39:45
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 Ah, name calling is your way out. I didn't see that coming. I guess it was only a matter of time before your brain imploded. My suggestion: go back to school.

That you were still unable to answer my question is duly noted.

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 25, 2016 at 14:19:13
geoffkait
 What was the question?

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 25, 2016 at 14:36:15
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 What is the answer?

I am not going to do your homework for you.

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 25, 2016 at 15:04:51
geoffkait
 Yaaaawn!

 

Continued on top of page under your original Posted Message. nt., posted on May 26, 2016 at 07:06:41
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 NT.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 18, 2016 at 23:31:40
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Since aluminum is NOT magnetic, NOTHING.

To the extent that Aluminum is paramagnetic, you'll get induced eddy currents and secondary magnetic fields.

I think it is the Schumann Resonance creating a beat frequency with the sampling frequency and inducing secondary oscillations in the DAC circuit.

But that's just a theory:
Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 22, 2016 at 09:35:36
geoffkait
 Nobody ever suggested aluminum is magnetic. Nice try, though. Something's happening, but you don't know what is is, do you, Mr. Jones?

"I'm trying to think but nothing happens." - Curly

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 22, 2016 at 10:04:36
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 You reacted to the wrong thing. again.


Paramagnetic might be key
Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 22, 2016 at 11:41:33
geoffkait
 You actually did not read my OP very thoroughly or so it would appear. Besides, Paramagnetism certainly wouldn't explain demagnetization of LPs in any case. Or cables for that matter.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 22, 2016 at 11:58:50
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 OP says CD, not LP.

The only connection I can see between CD and magnetism is the paramagnetic proprties of the aluminum metaliztion layer.

As for demagnatizers doing ANYTHING to an LP? tenuous.
As for cables? Lots of stuff going on there including what is (IMO) a bad idea of mixing alloys which create potential ThermoElectric effects which MIGHT be enough to interfere with the very low voltages of phono carts. I think the few MV generated in this manner would be beneath the level of DC offset in many circuits.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 22, 2016 at 14:37:15
geoffkait
 Even if aluminum is slightly magnetic due to impurities or is paramagnetic, paramagnetism can't be the general theory of operation since demagnetizers work on vinyl records as well, as vinyl is not magnetic or paramagnetic disregarding any impurities. It should also be mentioned the aluminum layer were talking about is extremely thin. You can actually see through the metal layer sometimes. So there's just not enough aluminum there. Also, demagnetizing CD works for gold CDs which one assumes are not paramagnetic, your theory doesn't seem to apply, nor to CDs that are silver, nickel, copper alloys. Paramagnetism also doesn't explain why demagnetizing interconnects improves the sound.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 22, 2016 at 15:01:16
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 First, you are assuming 'facts not in evidence' about all the other stuff which demagnetizing 'improves'.

As for thin aluminum? I've uesd various optical means to measure thickness, including what is called an Ellipsometer. I never DID figure out the (process dependent) index of refraction which would give me a reasonable answer. However, good results could be arrived at using something called a DekTak which basically drug a VERY tiny needle at VERY low 'tracking force' across a 'step' you could easily construct in an aluminum film.
I was primarily concerned with films from maybe 0.2 micron to 1.5 micron. The 'go to' device for measuring such films was called a '4-Point Probe' in which a current was forced thru 2 probeb and the VOLTAGE across the other 2 was measured. IF you know the 'Bulk Resistivity' of the material, it is an EASY machine calculation and yielded both consistant and repeatable results. ONCE you were calibrated to YOUR film.

A few other techniques are used, including X-Ray fluorescence and FTIR. (fourier transform-Infra red) Both of these require a long and detailed calibration process to make work. I worked with the X-Ray technique and to calibrate, had to send SAMPLES of known thickness to a lab for them to analyze. Even multiple layers can be done with this method. AS LONG AS you know a lot about some layers, you can determine UNKNOWN thickness. The lab took all my samples, some of multiple layers and sent me back the Measurement Files to plug into my system. What a PIA in a production envioronment.


My only fall back would be that molecules are polar in some fashion and the magnetic field somehow acts to align them which somehow effects the transmission of information THRU the effected 'thing' which than tickels your ears.

BTW, pure gold IS Very Slightly Manetic IN a magnetic field. Like perhaps, a demagnetizer.
Technically, gold is NOT paramagnetic, but rather Diamagnetic. But who cares?

One OTHER very interesting property of Gold is that it WILL pass a green light when in very thin sheets. Maybe only a couple hundred Angstroms.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 22, 2016 at 15:17:30
geoffkait
 I can literally see through some of the CD metal layers, especially the gold layers, which one assumes are sputtered on. The same argument applies to gold CDs - there's just not enough actual metal there to do anything, magnetized, demagnetized, whatever. But after all is said and done demagnetizing CDs does improve the sound. Regardless of your gut feeling.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on January 27, 2016 at 14:11:03
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 I did not know that aluminum was magnetic?

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on January 30, 2016 at 02:43:43
geoffkait
 "I did not know that aluminum was magnetic?"

It's not. Nobody said it was. Didn't you read my post? What I suggest is that there could be traces of ferrous elements in the aluminum or in the ink on the label. I'm giving the proponents of demagnetizing the benefit of the doubt. In other words, I'm questioning the CD demagnetizing, not supporting it. Hel-loo! What I'm saying is, even if there are trace elements the magnetic field thus produced would be too weak to explain the results obtained by demagnetization and therefore the whole demagnetizing of CDs thing is a mystery. Follow?

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on October 12, 2018 at 23:53:20
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 The most common impurity in an aluminum sputtering target would be silicon, and than only to the tune of maybe 1% to 1 1/2%. That is the Maximum Uptake of Si in Al at temperatur of maximum solubility.
The reason is that in semiconductor processing, which shares some equipment with the manufacture of CDs, when the Silicon Devices are 'annealed' (heat treated) the silicon in the electrical contacts will 'spike' up into the aluminum conductor. But NOT if the Aluminum already contains silicon.
Too much is never enough

 

My Theory, posted on January 7, 2016 at 21:47:11
Jon Risch
Bored Member

Posts: 6659
Joined: April 4, 2000
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 See:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/2/26267.html

and

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/4/48071.html

I originally posted my theory on the Stereophile forum, but I can't find a link to the post.

Jon Risch

 

Pop quiz, posted on January 12, 2016 at 07:52:13
geoffkait
 Pop quiz: How is polarization different from magnetization?

 

RE: My Theory, posted on January 8, 2016 at 08:56:51
geoffkait
 Interesting.

 

Good Lord, people..., posted on December 15, 2015 at 11:44:29
Lee of Omaha
Dealer

Posts: 1800
Location: Omaha NE
Joined: September 8, 2006
 CDs contain digital DATA. As in ones and zeros. Period. The transport's sole job is to read that data. Period. And redbook CDs are designed with lots of error detection and correction--of data.

It's the DAC's job to convert the digital data to analog audio. DAC's are critical; transports are not. Any properly-working transport is as good as any other.

We've all used CDs for data. How many errors do you get? And the error detection and correction on CDs is more robust than that on data CDs. In fact the standard for redbook CDs is that on an otherwise perfect CD you can drill a 4mm hole anywhere and the disk will play perfectly. I've seen that demonstrated.

I think the reason that demagnetized CDs sound better is that the person payed for the demagnetizer.

Seriously, the magic happens--or not--in the DAC. The transport is just a digital data reader.


 

What the...?, posted on December 15, 2015 at 11:54:29
geoffkait
 Of course you cannot change the physical data on the CD. No one said you could. The problem is that the laser reading is imperfect, you know, what with all the wobbling and fluttering disc during play, the out of round condition of most CDs, the less than perfect transparency of the clear layer, not to mention the background scattered laser light. You do realize the photodetector is a cheap $1.00 piece of junk, don't you? It's a miracle the CDs play at all. The other thing, it's about the error detection and correction system. It sucks.

 

RE: What the...?, posted on December 17, 2015 at 20:57:16
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 No errors on my $29 Plexor drive. At least not with properly cared for disks. Just last week a friend gave me a disk in a zip-lock bag, new jewel case. In addition to numerous fingerprints, it looked like it had been used to play Frisbee with a dog. Perhaps I should have demagnetized it before, unsuccessfully, trying to play it.


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: What the...?, posted on December 19, 2015 at 04:31:09
geoffkait
 "No errors on my $29 Plexor drive."

None that you're aware of, anyway. That's the advantage of experience, one assumes. You realize how many errors there a actually are, even for $15K players and DACs. But if you're happy, I'm happy.

 

RE: What the...?, posted on January 5, 2016 at 16:10:04
KG4NEL
Audiophile

Posts: 120
Location: Hillsborough, NC
Joined: April 19, 2005
 If I can do an EAC/dbpoweramp AccurateRip-verified rip at 100% confidence, that's good enough for me. That means my drive has to be making the *exact* same errors as the millions of other people who have ripped the same disc.

Jim J.

 

RE: What the...?, posted on January 8, 2016 at 11:24:01
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 Millions? Depends on your taste in music. Some of the stuff I rip my rip is the only version in the database. Much of it, it's less than a dozen.


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: What the...?, posted on January 7, 2016 at 09:38:36
geoffkait
 If you're happy that's what counts.

Happy New Year

 

RE: What the...?, posted on December 19, 2015 at 11:23:14
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 Problem isn't experience, it's knowledge and hard work. Not to be confused with excellence in scam artistry.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: What the...?, posted on December 19, 2015 at 16:51:16
geoffkait
 You are a funny fellow inasmuch as you onviously believe you know something.

 

RE: What the...?, posted on January 17, 2017 at 20:19:47
CD
Audiophile

Posts: 597
Joined: August 26, 2003
 Having tested hundreds of rips against databases, I have excellent empirical evidence that a $29 'puter drive can get a 100% accurate read of a CD. It's a pretty robust technology.

I do however get excellent results from hanging chicken feet over my server.

 

RE: What the..., posted on January 18, 2017 at 15:28:22
geoffkait
 That's what everybody says.

 

Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on November 29, 2015 at 09:49:08
DeKay
 .

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 5, 2016 at 13:38:24
Tweaker456
 Maybe you are thinking about gaussing youself and not degaussing. Subjecting one's brain to a magnetic field can have an clear effect on how on feels. There should be no doubt, IMO, as Geoff has made clear that this has an effect on sound quality and I would agree a profound effect. I rarely would listen to a cd without degaussing. I wish I thought things like this were not important. It would make the hobby so much easier. Tweaker

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 23, 2016 at 00:31:41
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 A permanent install of a Schuman Resonance Generator SHOULD make self-degausing unnecessary .
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 23, 2016 at 10:51:58
Tweaker456
 Picture guy, If I understand this response this would mean that you think that degaussing a cd is a waste of time?? If I understood correctly you could be putting others off of a very good tweak, as at least Geoff has pointed out before. It's an obvious improvement IMHO and only takes a few seconds. Tweaker

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 23, 2016 at 11:00:48
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Do as you see fit. Play safe and have fun.
But:
Until I can figure out or be told a good reason for something like CD Demagnetization to HELP the sound of a CD, I'll pass. What really kills me is that some claim benefit for doing the same to an LP!
I think, for MY $$$, a Schumann Resonance Generator would provide the best return. I can, at least, figure how this can help.

The most difficult 6 inches in golf? The space between your ears.


Too much is never enough

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 23, 2016 at 12:31:13
Tweaker456
 Well Picture guy, feel free to miss out. Why you would need a reason why it works is completely beyond me. If you tried it my guess is that you would hear it and like it. There is a discussion I think here on PH started by Geoff on why. Man, I'd like to know why we listen to music when it has nothing to do with basic survival. Musicians killing themselves for years and years to become good or great and for what, food , shelter , water, air? I'd like to know how and why we were put here in the first place, incredibly complex life forms from absolutely nothing. Yeah, right! Impossible. Don't you think that a little strange? Maybe Geoff can shed some light on this?? Tweaker

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 23, 2016 at 16:24:35
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Should I expect picture improvements from demagnetizing a DVD or BlueRay?
Brighter? More saturation? Different in some fashion?

Music fulfills a cultural purpose. All cultures invented some form of music. Even if it it simple drumming.
Many sacred structures, from Stonehenge to large cathedrals have acoustic properties to which man responds.

My opinion is that humans are programmed to respond to vibrations even below the threshold of feeling. I'm reasonably convinced of the efficacy of a properly done Schuman system.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 23, 2016 at 22:48:10
Tweaker456
 It's my opinion that it a fact that cd's are programed to improve after being subjected to a degaussing magnetic field even below the threshold of our understanding of why. Your Blue ray dvd question is off topic. Do you actually require a reason why for everything before you believe it. This position is utter nonsense. Now to end this you could actually try it. If you don't want to purchase a demagnetizer maybe someone you know has one. If you can't hear it than you can come to any conclusion you want. The doors of perception are not open to all all the time. You can then say that we who can hear it are delusional, subject to the placebo effect, that maybe we can hear better than you, anything you want but insulting those who hear it by demanding a why answer why before hand. Tweaker

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 24, 2016 at 19:38:34
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 So, somebody 'programmed' the CD to sound better after degaussing even without understanding WHY or HOW such a thing could or would work?

And while I will totally admit that many things ONCE beyond the ken of man are now understood and understood well, as yet I have heard NO theoretical framework for such a thing to happen to a CD /DVD / BR.

And yes, I suppose so. In the world I worked in for 30+ years, we believed in Cause and Effect.
The effect NEVER preceeded the Cause. NEVER. But when something broke or didn't work to plan, we didn't have a seance, or Hope it got better or anything else. We always tried to get to first cause. The engineers I worked for when in R+D were always happy to entertain a theory of what was going wrong. Sometimes we were able to fix it. Sometimes the fix was down another avenue. But there was ALWAYS some kind of reason. We could repeat the error by 'unfixing' the process or machine.

Other than your 'perception of insult', did I actually insult you or did I just wound your belief system?
Too much is never enough

 

Advice for anyone but Pictureguy , posted on March 24, 2016 at 21:30:40
Tweaker456
 If you haven't tried degaussing a CD to see if you hear a (positive) difference, one that people like Geoff and I would like not to go through this life without, a life which has no known reason for existing, than I suggest that you listen to a cd, degauss it, then listen to it again and see if you can hear it, ok little Billy. Wouldn't it be nice to not have to wake up ever morning and wonder why I have to go to work, why there are billions of galaxy's, why there are those white spots on Ceres, why some people don't think that Chet Baker is god, why the moon is not made of cheese, why people like Mozart, why people hate evidence, why do birds suddenly appear, why is there gravity, why do people vote against there obvious self interest, why do people use 54AWG wire for speaker wire, why am I wasting so much time trying to make such an amazingly simple point.

 

RE: Advice for anyone but Pictureguy , posted on March 25, 2016 at 12:38:05
Tweaker456
 Geoff does get some things right. Like degaussing, purple and black on cd's. If I didn't try the purple and black on cd's, demanded an explanation of WHY purple and black as opposed to going out and getting purple and black and doing an AB test then I wouldn't have know how good it sounded, at least to me and I would have gone though life with significantly less enjoyment of music. Which is what some of us are hear for. Same goes for degaussing. Tweaker

 

RE: Advice for anyone but Pictureguy , posted on March 25, 2016 at 02:32:08
beautox
Manufacturer

Posts: 366
Location: New Plymouth
Joined: July 9, 2013
 "people like Geoff and I"

ROFLMAO

 

I find the feeling uncomfortable, posted on December 1, 2015 at 05:39:40
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
 I have a powerful bulk tape eraser. I've tried degaussing CD's with it in the past, and, although I want to doubt it, seem to hear a difference. I was in an audio club years ago, tried it on another member's CD, and he heard it too.

But what bothers me is the feeling in my hand when I pass the CD over the degausser. Difficult to explain what it feels like, somewhere between tingling and numbness.

The iron in my blood being concentrated into my hand? I dunno.

 

Agreed!, posted on December 28, 2015 at 10:03:32
Winston Smith
Audiophile

Posts: 1014
Location: PNW (summers) and Southern AZ (winters)
Joined: December 2, 2006
 I found the exact same thing on all fronts, when years ago Ric Schultz rode my ass to simply try the Radio Shack degausser I had from my days of cassette head demags from the 70s. (I was, as usual back then, very 'resistant' to such tweaks as being 'unscientific".) But Ric, as usual, was right on the money, much to my disbelief.

Yeah, it worked. But that weird tingling feeling in the hand/fingers was the exact same reason I said, "Too weird. Not worth it." Never used the RS device after that, to be honest.

Then I got a beat-up Bedini demag device for free, and decided to re-try the demagging again, and the Bedini did a nice job for costing zero. Looked like shit, but worked fine.

When I got my Cabasse dealership long ago, I was able to finagle a Furutech demagger for a song from a guy I knew, so I have one of those, too. Very nice, and much better than the Bedini.

I was a major league skeptic on this one, until Ric convinced me to finally try the Radio Shack degausser. Still cannot believe it makes ANY difference at all. Crazy stuff, no doubt.

Whoodathunkit?

 

Strange, isn't it?, posted on January 7, 2016 at 00:22:22
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
 Strange that it does seem to have an effect on the sound of the CD, which, while it makes no sense, is simply curious.

The effect on my body is more disconcerting. I can't answer for you and your Radio Shack degausser that geoffkait supposes you're feeling because of the vibration. But my old Olsen Electronics TA-147 bulk tape eraser is a table top unit measuring 4.5" x 4" x 2.25" and is listed at 10 amps. This thing buzzes and vibrates, but I'm not even touching it when passing the CD over it, and I still get that odd feeling in my hand.

It's easy to use, and I'd sweep every CD I listen to over it, but it's not worth hand cancer (is there such a thing?) for the subtle improvement in sound.

 

Wonder why..., posted on February 27, 2016 at 14:59:51
mlsstl
Audiophile

Posts: 1079
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
 ...the several MRIs I've had over the years haven't bothered me? Now there are some powerful magnets!

 

RE: Strange, isn't it?, posted on January 7, 2016 at 09:43:49
geoffkait
 The acid test would be to see if you get that same tingling sensation when using the Walker Talisman which is passive. I can definitely feel the physical effects of magnets and even crystals. Funny, it's been about thirty years since audiophiles started using demagnetizers on CDs yet no one has gotten very far in terms of an explanation. Oh, well, a Rolling Stone gathers no moss.

 

CD Tongs, posted on January 12, 2016 at 07:23:12
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007



Back during CDs heyday, I remember seeing CD tongs for sale at places like Audio Adviser, etc. They reminded me of a pair of plastic kitchen serving tongs, except that they had a molded tip which fit inside the CD center hole.

The idea (supposedly) was to help keep fingerprints off CDs, but I'm betting it caused a lot more dropped / scratched CDs then it helped with fingerprints. I thought about getting one to keep my hand further away from the strong eddy currents I was experiencing while holding the CD close to the tape eraser.

As with all things audiophile, these things were exorbitantly priced for what they were. Since I'm primarily an LP guy, I simply skipped "treating" my CDs with the tape eraser, and stuck with a CD Stop Light paint pen and their glow in the dark disc.

But speaking of LPs, I've read similar (though less frequent) claims for bulk tape erasers making improvements there too. That's even more strange, since there's no metal at all involved



 

Hey, that's nothin', posted on January 12, 2016 at 07:33:22
geoffkait



Wait'll they get a load of this back in Des Moines.

The PWB Quantum Clip

 

I'm sticking with zircon encrusted tweezers, posted on January 12, 2016 at 07:53:18
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007



Heavy-duty, of course, and sterilized via lighter.





 

RE: I'm sticking with zircon encrusted tweezers, posted on January 12, 2016 at 10:10:28
lugnut1
Audiophile

Posts: 132
Location: Austin,TX
Joined: September 24, 2011
 Best tool to use when you want to Zappa CD!

 

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