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So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?

97.34.193.249
Posted on November 8, 2015 at 14:55:08
geoffkait
 What's the deal with CD demagnetizers?

OK, I've got an innocent question. How do CD magnetizers work? I'm a little dissatisfied with reviewers' or anyone's ubiquitous comment, "I have no idea how it works but works it does." Whether it's the Radio Shack bulk tape eraser, the Walker Audio Talisman, or another demagnetizer, pretty sure Furutech sells them, too, what's the mechanism for how they work?

So, anyway, we all know that demagnetizing CD prior to play does improve the sound. If you haven't tried it trust me it works. But the closer you look at this phenomenon the more mysterious it becomes. The main question I have is even if there is some magnetic materials in the CD, you know, in the ink used for the CD label graphics or in the metal layer, surely the magnetic field arising there from must certainly be very very small, given that the ferrous impurities would by necessity be perhaps what less than 0.001 % of the material? But for the sake of argument let's say there is SOME (extremely minor) magnetic field in the material of the CD resulting from the ink and/or the metal layer, why would that mag field hurt the sound? And by the same token why would demagnetizing the CD improve the sound?

One assumes the magnetic field builds back up over time since the demagnetizers must be employed on the CD every so often. Even assuming some small magnetic field, any magnetic field, associated with the CD how would that affect the sound one way or the other? Anyone have any insights?

Geoff Kait

 

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RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on November 11, 2015 at 14:37:53
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...I suspect it affects the aluminum layer in some way, even though it is not very magnetic.

After all we are talking about optical optimization on a microscopic level.

More importantly, what's the deal with LP demagnetizers?

Static electricity removed like the Zero-Stat?

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on November 12, 2015 at 03:34:58
geoffkait
 The static electricity is a separate issue. More on that later. But back to the question, how can the metal layer be magnetic to any REAL degree? It is sputtered on so the layer is extremely thin. You can sometimes SEE through it it's so thin. In addition the aluminum or nickel or gold layers are quite pure. If there are ANY ferrous impurities at all in the metal layer - which is dubious - there could not possibly be enough magnetism to account for much of anything. You might as well suspect the polycarbonate of impurities. Now, if someone said that 24 carat Gold CDs were impervious to demagnetizers I might go along with you as far as aluminum or silver or nickel CDs go. As for your question regarding magnetism in LPs, I suspect the same argument applies. There doesn't appear to be sufficient ferrous impurities in either the vinyl or the ink on the label to affect anything sonically or to be affected by a demag.

The other problem of course is, even if there were sufficient ferrous impurities in the metal or the ink to produce a "mild" magnetic field WHAT would the magnetic field affect that changes the sound? Is it the electronics, the laser beam (yes, I know it's electromagnetic), the servo mechanism, what?

Nevertheless, I employ both a demagnetizer and a tourmaline negative ion gun on CDs simply because I believe it's better to be safe than sorry. Hahahaha

You wrote,

"After all we are talking about optical optimization on a microscopic level."

That's assuming the magnetic field, if there is one at all, affects the optical reading process and not something else. And even if there is a slight magnetic field and it DOES affect the laser reading process it better do it VERY QUICKLY since the photons are moving at the speed of light and the distance they travel between the laser output and the photodetector is what about half an inch? :-)

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on November 14, 2015 at 19:10:34
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 "So, anyway, we all know that demagnetizing CD prior to play does improve the sound. If you haven't tried it trust me it works."

I don't trust you. And I don't care if it "works" or not, as I don't play back CDs in real time. I rip them and listen to at least third generation digital copies of the rip.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on November 15, 2015 at 07:05:29
geoffkait
 You would undoubtedly have better results if you demag'd the CDs prior to ripping.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on November 15, 2015 at 08:38:02
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 I already get perfect results unless a dog has "pooched" the disk prior to the rip.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on November 15, 2015 at 12:13:09
geoffkait
 I guess it all comes down to your definition of perfect. Perfect sound forever. ;-)

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on November 26, 2015 at 09:38:21
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "The other problem of course is, even if there were sufficient ferrous impurities in the metal or the ink to produce a "mild" magnetic field WHAT would the magnetic field affect that changes the sound? Is it the electronics, the laser beam (yes, I know it's electromagnetic), the servo mechanism, what?"

I'd say, from past dinking that the issue is prolly electrostatic. With a zero stat it's easy to deposit charges or remove them (if you're close, the discharge directly sticks to the surface, if you are at the "normal" working distance the ionized air plume equalizes them) and with a dog hair electroscope you can readily detect them. Now don't get upset if you're a cat person, their hair would prolly be JUST as good. Human too but I don't have any to spare, sigh. The construction is: tape a hair to a toothpick with scotch tape. Elegant...

The obvious? next step would be to lay down strips of charge and monitor the focus coil current with a scope to see if you can see their pattern. But I did't get that far since I was going to just rip everything. But I've since discovered that I'm rather fond of just playing CD's so may revisit it.


"Nevertheless, I employ both a demagnetizer and a tourmaline negative ion gun on CDs simply because I believe it's better to be safe than sorry. Hahahaha"

I'd bet on the ion gun but would surely like to know if it's the demag.

Rick

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on November 26, 2015 at 13:21:46
geoffkait
 I honestly don't know how you can listen to those things without demagging them. I suppose one can get used to anything.

 

Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on November 29, 2015 at 09:49:08
DeKay
 .

 

I've become rather Attached to my own personal magnetism. Nt, posted on November 29, 2015 at 17:09:28
geoffkait
 Nt

 

I find the feeling uncomfortable, posted on December 1, 2015 at 05:39:40
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
 I have a powerful bulk tape eraser. I've tried degaussing CD's with it in the past, and, although I want to doubt it, seem to hear a difference. I was in an audio club years ago, tried it on another member's CD, and he heard it too.

But what bothers me is the feeling in my hand when I pass the CD over the degausser. Difficult to explain what it feels like, somewhere between tingling and numbness.

The iron in my blood being concentrated into my hand? I dunno.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on December 1, 2015 at 11:51:16
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 Perfect is measured by the bits that are on the disk. This is verified by the Accurate database.

The piece of plastic spun months ago when it was ripped. It is no longer anywhere close to the equipment in my listening room. I haven't tried demagnetizing the hard drive that holds all of the bits from my ripped CDs. Somehow, I suspect this would be a poor idea... :-)

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: I've become rather Attached to my own personal magnetism. Nt, posted on December 1, 2015 at 11:59:39
beautox
Manufacturer

Posts: 366
Location: New Plymouth
Joined: July 9, 2013
 Thing about magnetism is that it can repel as well as attract.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on December 1, 2015 at 14:04:40
geoffkait
 You see everything!


;-)

 

RE: I've become rather Attached to my own personal magnetism. Nt, posted on December 1, 2015 at 15:59:54
geoffkait
 Thank goodness for that, right?

 

Good Lord, people..., posted on December 15, 2015 at 11:44:29
Lee of Omaha
Dealer

Posts: 1800
Location: Omaha NE
Joined: September 8, 2006
 CDs contain digital DATA. As in ones and zeros. Period. The transport's sole job is to read that data. Period. And redbook CDs are designed with lots of error detection and correction--of data.

It's the DAC's job to convert the digital data to analog audio. DAC's are critical; transports are not. Any properly-working transport is as good as any other.

We've all used CDs for data. How many errors do you get? And the error detection and correction on CDs is more robust than that on data CDs. In fact the standard for redbook CDs is that on an otherwise perfect CD you can drill a 4mm hole anywhere and the disk will play perfectly. I've seen that demonstrated.

I think the reason that demagnetized CDs sound better is that the person payed for the demagnetizer.

Seriously, the magic happens--or not--in the DAC. The transport is just a digital data reader.


 

What the...?, posted on December 15, 2015 at 11:54:29
geoffkait
 Of course you cannot change the physical data on the CD. No one said you could. The problem is that the laser reading is imperfect, you know, what with all the wobbling and fluttering disc during play, the out of round condition of most CDs, the less than perfect transparency of the clear layer, not to mention the background scattered laser light. You do realize the photodetector is a cheap $1.00 piece of junk, don't you? It's a miracle the CDs play at all. The other thing, it's about the error detection and correction system. It sucks.

 

RE: What the...?, posted on December 17, 2015 at 20:57:16
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 No errors on my $29 Plexor drive. At least not with properly cared for disks. Just last week a friend gave me a disk in a zip-lock bag, new jewel case. In addition to numerous fingerprints, it looked like it had been used to play Frisbee with a dog. Perhaps I should have demagnetized it before, unsuccessfully, trying to play it.


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: What the...?, posted on December 19, 2015 at 04:31:09
geoffkait
 "No errors on my $29 Plexor drive."

None that you're aware of, anyway. That's the advantage of experience, one assumes. You realize how many errors there a actually are, even for $15K players and DACs. But if you're happy, I'm happy.

 

RE: What the...?, posted on December 19, 2015 at 11:23:14
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 Problem isn't experience, it's knowledge and hard work. Not to be confused with excellence in scam artistry.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: What the...?, posted on December 19, 2015 at 16:51:16
geoffkait
 You are a funny fellow inasmuch as you onviously believe you know something.

 

Agreed!, posted on December 28, 2015 at 10:03:32
Winston Smith
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 I found the exact same thing on all fronts, when years ago Ric Schultz rode my ass to simply try the Radio Shack degausser I had from my days of cassette head demags from the 70s. (I was, as usual back then, very 'resistant' to such tweaks as being 'unscientific".) But Ric, as usual, was right on the money, much to my disbelief.

Yeah, it worked. But that weird tingling feeling in the hand/fingers was the exact same reason I said, "Too weird. Not worth it." Never used the RS device after that, to be honest.

Then I got a beat-up Bedini demag device for free, and decided to re-try the demagging again, and the Bedini did a nice job for costing zero. Looked like shit, but worked fine.

When I got my Cabasse dealership long ago, I was able to finagle a Furutech demagger for a song from a guy I knew, so I have one of those, too. Very nice, and much better than the Bedini.

I was a major league skeptic on this one, until Ric convinced me to finally try the Radio Shack degausser. Still cannot believe it makes ANY difference at all. Crazy stuff, no doubt.

Whoodathunkit?

 

Well,, posted on December 31, 2015 at 03:31:52
geoffkait
 Well, it does vibrate, the Radio Shack bulk tape eraser. So not surprising you felt tingling.

 

RE: What the...?, posted on January 5, 2016 at 16:10:04
KG4NEL
Audiophile

Posts: 120
Location: Hillsborough, NC
Joined: April 19, 2005
 If I can do an EAC/dbpoweramp AccurateRip-verified rip at 100% confidence, that's good enough for me. That means my drive has to be making the *exact* same errors as the millions of other people who have ripped the same disc.

Jim J.

 

Strange, isn't it?, posted on January 7, 2016 at 00:22:22
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
 Strange that it does seem to have an effect on the sound of the CD, which, while it makes no sense, is simply curious.

The effect on my body is more disconcerting. I can't answer for you and your Radio Shack degausser that geoffkait supposes you're feeling because of the vibration. But my old Olsen Electronics TA-147 bulk tape eraser is a table top unit measuring 4.5" x 4" x 2.25" and is listed at 10 amps. This thing buzzes and vibrates, but I'm not even touching it when passing the CD over it, and I still get that odd feeling in my hand.

It's easy to use, and I'd sweep every CD I listen to over it, but it's not worth hand cancer (is there such a thing?) for the subtle improvement in sound.

 

RE: What the...?, posted on January 7, 2016 at 09:38:36
geoffkait
 If you're happy that's what counts.

Happy New Year

 

RE: Strange, isn't it?, posted on January 7, 2016 at 09:43:49
geoffkait
 The acid test would be to see if you get that same tingling sensation when using the Walker Talisman which is passive. I can definitely feel the physical effects of magnets and even crystals. Funny, it's been about thirty years since audiophiles started using demagnetizers on CDs yet no one has gotten very far in terms of an explanation. Oh, well, a Rolling Stone gathers no moss.

 

My Theory, posted on January 7, 2016 at 21:47:11
Jon Risch
Bored Member

Posts: 6659
Joined: April 4, 2000
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 See:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/2/26267.html

and

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/4/48071.html

I originally posted my theory on the Stereophile forum, but I can't find a link to the post.

Jon Risch

 

RE: My Theory, posted on January 8, 2016 at 08:56:51
geoffkait
 Interesting.

 

RE: What the...?, posted on January 8, 2016 at 11:24:01
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 Millions? Depends on your taste in music. Some of the stuff I rip my rip is the only version in the database. Much of it, it's less than a dozen.


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

CD Tongs, posted on January 12, 2016 at 07:23:12
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007



Back during CDs heyday, I remember seeing CD tongs for sale at places like Audio Adviser, etc. They reminded me of a pair of plastic kitchen serving tongs, except that they had a molded tip which fit inside the CD center hole.

The idea (supposedly) was to help keep fingerprints off CDs, but I'm betting it caused a lot more dropped / scratched CDs then it helped with fingerprints. I thought about getting one to keep my hand further away from the strong eddy currents I was experiencing while holding the CD close to the tape eraser.

As with all things audiophile, these things were exorbitantly priced for what they were. Since I'm primarily an LP guy, I simply skipped "treating" my CDs with the tape eraser, and stuck with a CD Stop Light paint pen and their glow in the dark disc.

But speaking of LPs, I've read similar (though less frequent) claims for bulk tape erasers making improvements there too. That's even more strange, since there's no metal at all involved



 

Hey, that's nothin', posted on January 12, 2016 at 07:33:22
geoffkait



Wait'll they get a load of this back in Des Moines.

The PWB Quantum Clip

 

Pop quiz, posted on January 12, 2016 at 07:52:13
geoffkait
 Pop quiz: How is polarization different from magnetization?

 

I'm sticking with zircon encrusted tweezers, posted on January 12, 2016 at 07:53:18
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007



Heavy-duty, of course, and sterilized via lighter.





 

RE: I'm sticking with zircon encrusted tweezers, posted on January 12, 2016 at 10:10:28
lugnut1
Audiophile

Posts: 132
Location: Austin,TX
Joined: September 24, 2011
 Best tool to use when you want to Zappa CD!

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on January 27, 2016 at 14:11:03
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 I did not know that aluminum was magnetic?

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on January 30, 2016 at 02:43:43
geoffkait
 "I did not know that aluminum was magnetic?"

It's not. Nobody said it was. Didn't you read my post? What I suggest is that there could be traces of ferrous elements in the aluminum or in the ink on the label. I'm giving the proponents of demagnetizing the benefit of the doubt. In other words, I'm questioning the CD demagnetizing, not supporting it. Hel-loo! What I'm saying is, even if there are trace elements the magnetic field thus produced would be too weak to explain the results obtained by demagnetization and therefore the whole demagnetizing of CDs thing is a mystery. Follow?

 

Wonder why..., posted on February 27, 2016 at 14:59:51
mlsstl
Audiophile

Posts: 1079
Location: Midwest
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 ...the several MRIs I've had over the years haven't bothered me? Now there are some powerful magnets!

 

I saved a large Excel file from work..., posted on February 27, 2016 at 15:07:18
mlsstl
Audiophile

Posts: 1079
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
 ... to a CD and then compared the calculation results before and after demagnetizing the disc.

On the surface the answers given appeared to be the same but the result from demagnetized CD seemed to have much more presence about it. I was particularly impressed with the naturalness of the decimal points.

 

RE: I saved a large Excel file from work..., posted on March 2, 2016 at 19:59:41
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 You should understand that a data CD-ROM has a third layer of error correcting code applied to it. This is because the error correction provided by Sony in the CD format was good enough for "perfect sound for ever" but completely inadequate by standards of computer data integrity, even back in the 1980's. From the computer standpoint, the Red Book CD is nothing but junk media. Anyone mastering audio CD's is well aware of the problems with this format, especially in the CD-R format which is like thermal paper printing and tends to decay with time, depending on temperature.

Without the extra error correction, your natural decimal points might have moved. Depending on whether they represented debits or credits, you might have considered the error beneficial.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 5, 2016 at 13:38:24
Tweaker456
 Maybe you are thinking about gaussing youself and not degaussing. Subjecting one's brain to a magnetic field can have an clear effect on how on feels. There should be no doubt, IMO, as Geoff has made clear that this has an effect on sound quality and I would agree a profound effect. I rarely would listen to a cd without degaussing. I wish I thought things like this were not important. It would make the hobby so much easier. Tweaker

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 18, 2016 at 23:31:40
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Since aluminum is NOT magnetic, NOTHING.

To the extent that Aluminum is paramagnetic, you'll get induced eddy currents and secondary magnetic fields.

I think it is the Schumann Resonance creating a beat frequency with the sampling frequency and inducing secondary oscillations in the DAC circuit.

But that's just a theory:
Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 22, 2016 at 09:35:36
geoffkait
 Nobody ever suggested aluminum is magnetic. Nice try, though. Something's happening, but you don't know what is is, do you, Mr. Jones?

"I'm trying to think but nothing happens." - Curly

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 22, 2016 at 10:04:36
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 You reacted to the wrong thing. again.


Paramagnetic might be key
Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 22, 2016 at 11:41:33
geoffkait
 You actually did not read my OP very thoroughly or so it would appear. Besides, Paramagnetism certainly wouldn't explain demagnetization of LPs in any case. Or cables for that matter.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 22, 2016 at 11:58:50
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 OP says CD, not LP.

The only connection I can see between CD and magnetism is the paramagnetic proprties of the aluminum metaliztion layer.

As for demagnatizers doing ANYTHING to an LP? tenuous.
As for cables? Lots of stuff going on there including what is (IMO) a bad idea of mixing alloys which create potential ThermoElectric effects which MIGHT be enough to interfere with the very low voltages of phono carts. I think the few MV generated in this manner would be beneath the level of DC offset in many circuits.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 22, 2016 at 14:37:15
geoffkait
 Even if aluminum is slightly magnetic due to impurities or is paramagnetic, paramagnetism can't be the general theory of operation since demagnetizers work on vinyl records as well, as vinyl is not magnetic or paramagnetic disregarding any impurities. It should also be mentioned the aluminum layer were talking about is extremely thin. You can actually see through the metal layer sometimes. So there's just not enough aluminum there. Also, demagnetizing CD works for gold CDs which one assumes are not paramagnetic, your theory doesn't seem to apply, nor to CDs that are silver, nickel, copper alloys. Paramagnetism also doesn't explain why demagnetizing interconnects improves the sound.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 22, 2016 at 15:01:16
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 First, you are assuming 'facts not in evidence' about all the other stuff which demagnetizing 'improves'.

As for thin aluminum? I've uesd various optical means to measure thickness, including what is called an Ellipsometer. I never DID figure out the (process dependent) index of refraction which would give me a reasonable answer. However, good results could be arrived at using something called a DekTak which basically drug a VERY tiny needle at VERY low 'tracking force' across a 'step' you could easily construct in an aluminum film.
I was primarily concerned with films from maybe 0.2 micron to 1.5 micron. The 'go to' device for measuring such films was called a '4-Point Probe' in which a current was forced thru 2 probeb and the VOLTAGE across the other 2 was measured. IF you know the 'Bulk Resistivity' of the material, it is an EASY machine calculation and yielded both consistant and repeatable results. ONCE you were calibrated to YOUR film.

A few other techniques are used, including X-Ray fluorescence and FTIR. (fourier transform-Infra red) Both of these require a long and detailed calibration process to make work. I worked with the X-Ray technique and to calibrate, had to send SAMPLES of known thickness to a lab for them to analyze. Even multiple layers can be done with this method. AS LONG AS you know a lot about some layers, you can determine UNKNOWN thickness. The lab took all my samples, some of multiple layers and sent me back the Measurement Files to plug into my system. What a PIA in a production envioronment.


My only fall back would be that molecules are polar in some fashion and the magnetic field somehow acts to align them which somehow effects the transmission of information THRU the effected 'thing' which than tickels your ears.

BTW, pure gold IS Very Slightly Manetic IN a magnetic field. Like perhaps, a demagnetizer.
Technically, gold is NOT paramagnetic, but rather Diamagnetic. But who cares?

One OTHER very interesting property of Gold is that it WILL pass a green light when in very thin sheets. Maybe only a couple hundred Angstroms.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 22, 2016 at 15:17:30
geoffkait
 I can literally see through some of the CD metal layers, especially the gold layers, which one assumes are sputtered on. The same argument applies to gold CDs - there's just not enough actual metal there to do anything, magnetized, demagnetized, whatever. But after all is said and done demagnetizing CDs does improve the sound. Regardless of your gut feeling.

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 23, 2016 at 00:31:41
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 A permanent install of a Schuman Resonance Generator SHOULD make self-degausing unnecessary .
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 23, 2016 at 10:51:58
Tweaker456
 Picture guy, If I understand this response this would mean that you think that degaussing a cd is a waste of time?? If I understood correctly you could be putting others off of a very good tweak, as at least Geoff has pointed out before. It's an obvious improvement IMHO and only takes a few seconds. Tweaker

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 23, 2016 at 11:00:48
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Do as you see fit. Play safe and have fun.
But:
Until I can figure out or be told a good reason for something like CD Demagnetization to HELP the sound of a CD, I'll pass. What really kills me is that some claim benefit for doing the same to an LP!
I think, for MY $$$, a Schumann Resonance Generator would provide the best return. I can, at least, figure how this can help.

The most difficult 6 inches in golf? The space between your ears.


Too much is never enough

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 23, 2016 at 12:31:13
Tweaker456
 Well Picture guy, feel free to miss out. Why you would need a reason why it works is completely beyond me. If you tried it my guess is that you would hear it and like it. There is a discussion I think here on PH started by Geoff on why. Man, I'd like to know why we listen to music when it has nothing to do with basic survival. Musicians killing themselves for years and years to become good or great and for what, food , shelter , water, air? I'd like to know how and why we were put here in the first place, incredibly complex life forms from absolutely nothing. Yeah, right! Impossible. Don't you think that a little strange? Maybe Geoff can shed some light on this?? Tweaker

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 23, 2016 at 16:24:35
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Should I expect picture improvements from demagnetizing a DVD or BlueRay?
Brighter? More saturation? Different in some fashion?

Music fulfills a cultural purpose. All cultures invented some form of music. Even if it it simple drumming.
Many sacred structures, from Stonehenge to large cathedrals have acoustic properties to which man responds.

My opinion is that humans are programmed to respond to vibrations even below the threshold of feeling. I'm reasonably convinced of the efficacy of a properly done Schuman system.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 23, 2016 at 22:48:10
Tweaker456
 It's my opinion that it a fact that cd's are programed to improve after being subjected to a degaussing magnetic field even below the threshold of our understanding of why. Your Blue ray dvd question is off topic. Do you actually require a reason why for everything before you believe it. This position is utter nonsense. Now to end this you could actually try it. If you don't want to purchase a demagnetizer maybe someone you know has one. If you can't hear it than you can come to any conclusion you want. The doors of perception are not open to all all the time. You can then say that we who can hear it are delusional, subject to the placebo effect, that maybe we can hear better than you, anything you want but insulting those who hear it by demanding a why answer why before hand. Tweaker

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 24, 2016 at 14:14:00
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 We had tools to actually MEASURE the amount of electrostatic charge. Calibrated for a certain distance, we'd use it AFTER a good blast of ZeroStat.
We were VERY concerned with ESD and all the rest in a manufacturing environment.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 24, 2016 at 16:28:32
geoffkait
 Electrostatic charge is another issue entirely. The earnest audiophile must both demag and use some sort of anti static treatment. Better safe than sorry.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 24, 2016 at 17:01:11
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I'd personally be more concerned with ElectroStatic charge. I've measured particles on bare Si wafers and found that Electro Static air treatments make a HUGE (several orders of magnitude) difference. Charged wafers are simply particle magnets. As I'd assume a CD/DVD/BR to be. Or even an LP, for THAT matter.
This was in a class 10 room. Cleaner than ANY operating theater, but NOT sterile.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 24, 2016 at 17:35:48
geoffkait
 But I question electrostatic charge as being a problem, too, just like I question magnetism and demagnetizing the disc. It's not too difficult to see where the static charge on a disc arises but what is the effect, how does it hurt the sound? Static charge is a magnet for particles of opposite charge, that's true. But so what? How does it affect the sound? Certainly not by affecting the laser beam.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 24, 2016 at 17:44:15
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 A clean disc is a happy disc.

I would use the Zero Stat to remove dust / reduce dust buildup.

I doubt much or ANY actual audio degradation at least until the point of obscuring the laser.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 24, 2016 at 17:50:30
geoffkait
 Sorry, not buying it. Never see any dust on any CD. Besides the static charge builds back up and one must resort to anti static measures once again at some point to restore the sound. Yet there is no dust inside the player, it also doesn't explains why destat improves record play since dust is not really an issue for records, is it? And it doesn't explain why removing the static charge from interconnects improves the sound.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 24, 2016 at 19:00:56
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 again, assuming 'facts' not in evidence.

One of the MAIN reasons I gave up vinyl in about '84 was all those ANNOYING pops and ticks. In extremely DRY climates, I suspect it is even possible for the electrostatic charge to effect Tracking Force.

In the interest of COMPLETENESS:
(I would use the Zero Stat to remove dust / reduce dust buildup) IF i ever had such a problem.

I experimented BRIEFLY with pop / tick removal. Maybe 45 seconds. I JUST 3 weeks ago gave away a good DBX NX-40 compressor / expander which found use on a R-2-R but I NEVER succeeded in finding a DBX encoded disc.

CD is not very susceptible to such dust. DVD moreso, due to the smaller 'pitch' of the geometry and BR perhaps even MORESO. That being said, I've NEVER in 30+ years of CD ownership EVER had an issue I could ascribe to dust or such buildup. My ORIGINAL 3 discs including a wonderful Eric Clapton Blues Breakers has NEVER had a single issue. The garage sound of that that disc is wonderfully preserved and reproduced.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Why stop @ the CD when we can degauss ourselves as well?..., posted on March 24, 2016 at 19:38:34
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 So, somebody 'programmed' the CD to sound better after degaussing even without understanding WHY or HOW such a thing could or would work?

And while I will totally admit that many things ONCE beyond the ken of man are now understood and understood well, as yet I have heard NO theoretical framework for such a thing to happen to a CD /DVD / BR.

And yes, I suppose so. In the world I worked in for 30+ years, we believed in Cause and Effect.
The effect NEVER preceeded the Cause. NEVER. But when something broke or didn't work to plan, we didn't have a seance, or Hope it got better or anything else. We always tried to get to first cause. The engineers I worked for when in R+D were always happy to entertain a theory of what was going wrong. Sometimes we were able to fix it. Sometimes the fix was down another avenue. But there was ALWAYS some kind of reason. We could repeat the error by 'unfixing' the process or machine.

Other than your 'perception of insult', did I actually insult you or did I just wound your belief system?
Too much is never enough

 

Advice for anyone but Pictureguy , posted on March 24, 2016 at 21:30:40
Tweaker456
 If you haven't tried degaussing a CD to see if you hear a (positive) difference, one that people like Geoff and I would like not to go through this life without, a life which has no known reason for existing, than I suggest that you listen to a cd, degauss it, then listen to it again and see if you can hear it, ok little Billy. Wouldn't it be nice to not have to wake up ever morning and wonder why I have to go to work, why there are billions of galaxy's, why there are those white spots on Ceres, why some people don't think that Chet Baker is god, why the moon is not made of cheese, why people like Mozart, why people hate evidence, why do birds suddenly appear, why is there gravity, why do people vote against there obvious self interest, why do people use 54AWG wire for speaker wire, why am I wasting so much time trying to make such an amazingly simple point.

 

RE: Advice for anyone but Pictureguy , posted on March 25, 2016 at 02:32:08
beautox
Manufacturer

Posts: 366
Location: New Plymouth
Joined: July 9, 2013
 "people like Geoff and I"

ROFLMAO

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on March 25, 2016 at 04:18:58
geoffkait
 Well, you somehow managed to totally confuse me. On one hand you say electric static charge attracts dust then you turn around and say CDs do not attract dust. Color me confused. In any case, there is no doubt that both demagnetization of CDs and LPs and interconnects is beneficial to the sound. And so is the use of ionizers like my Particle Accelerator or anti static sprays such as my Sonic Tonic or Nordost anti static spray. It's just the operating mechanism that we are only guessing at. Don't get hung up, just keep moving, it's hard to hit a moving target.

 

RE: Advice for anyone but Pictureguy , posted on March 25, 2016 at 12:38:05
Tweaker456
 Geoff does get some things right. Like degaussing, purple and black on cd's. If I didn't try the purple and black on cd's, demanded an explanation of WHY purple and black as opposed to going out and getting purple and black and doing an AB test then I wouldn't have know how good it sounded, at least to me and I would have gone though life with significantly less enjoyment of music. Which is what some of us are hear for. Same goes for degaussing. Tweaker

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on May 22, 2016 at 21:36:55
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 Exactly why or how it works I don't know.

From personal experience and experimenting I found it does work.

I have a old Bedini Ultra Clarifier. I used to have a web link of the patent Bedini applied for when he invented the thing but lost it years ago and have not been able to find it since.

Bedini did not say it demagnetized the disc. It aligned something.

Yes CDs can be magnetized. Some more than others. Yes the ink/dye used on the label can have ferrous materials in it. Even the aluminum disc can have impurities in it that are ferrous/magnetic.

What I found from experimenting.

Labels that use dark, brown, red, blue, black, and green, can be magnetized.

A spin in the Bedini, both sides, can have an impact on the SQ of the CD.

A tape demagnetizer will have a slight change on the SQ of the CD but not as much as the Bedini.

A simple test if you have a CD with a dark color label, say dark red or dark blue. You will need a strong permanent magnet.

First listen to the CD to familiarize yourself with it again.
Next take the strong permanent magnet and move the magnet over both sides of the CD without actually contacting the CD.
Next play the CD again and listen for differences in the CD.

I have recorded an untreated CD on a CD-R music recorder and then given the same CD a spin, both sides, in the Bedini and then recorded it again on another blank CD-R music disc.

The two finalized CD-R CD clearly sound different from one another. I have even taken an untreated CD and recorded a few songs on a CD-R, then treated the CD in the Bedini and recorded the same songs on the same CD-R CD. Finalized the CD-R and again the recorded untreated songs clearly sounded different than the treated recorded songs.

I have even taken the recorded CD-R/s to a B&M Dealer in my area and played the CDs on his equipment. Marantz and Cambridge CDPs. There was no mistaking the differences in sound of the CDs.

I also found CDs with a silver color label, the Bedini made little difference or none to the sound.

I also found if a silver color label CD sounded bright, like some in the early 1990s a spin, both sides, in the Bedini made the CD sound even worse.

Here is one for you. I Found if a finalized CD-R was given a spin in the Bedini it dulled the sound and basically ruined the CD-R CD.

If a blank CD-R was given a spin in the Bedini first before is was recorded/burned the Final product sounded fine.

http://www.hifido.co.jp/photo/10/852/85201/c.jpg


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Quote from link below.

Furutech RD-1 CD Demagnetizer

Now, how on earth might the Furutech somehow reduce contaminating noise? What is there in a CD that might cause contaminating noise, and that might need demagnetizing? And how does a CD get re-magnetized by being played, such that it benefits from further demagnetizing after a few plays?
The Furutech people have two simple answers. Ink and impurities. The whole surface of a CD is covered with ink, to make up the printed label. These inks contain pigments, some of which are ferrous, hence permeable. The Furutech people also suggest that the aluminum in the reflective layer might well contain impurities, including iron.
Now, the CD rotates pretty fast (200 to 500 rpm), and any ferrous material will gradually become slightly magnetized over time if it is rapidly moving in a magnetic field (the earth's magnetic field will do, but there are doubtless other magnetic fields as well within a CD player). All right, so we have a CD with some slightly magnetized pieces of ink, spinning around inside your CD player. How does that cause contaminating noise in your music?
Let's assume that the brown pigment in brown ink is ferrous, and let's assume that some small lettering on the CD label is printed in brown ink. Let's assume that there are about 50 letters in the small lettering, which means that there are about 100 vertical ferrous bar magnets (for example, the letter H has two vertical bars), rotating around with the CD. These rotating bar magnets are putting an electromagnetic noise field into the space and air inside your CD player. If the CD is rotating at 8 Hz (480 rpm), and there are 100 discrete bar magnets going around at 8 Hz, then they are putting out noise with a fundamental at 800 Hz, together with all kinds of overtones spread upward throughout the rest of the musical spectrum (if we were to assume the bar magnets were purely rectangular and put out noise that looks like a square wave, there would be overtones at 2400 Hz, 4000 Hz, 5600 Hz, etc.)

You can see that this contaminating noise thrown into the air is rich in high frequency spectral content, so it would be most destructive of music's higher frequencies and of singular, non-repeating musical transients, if it were to somehow interfere with the music signal inside your CD player. And, if a CD treatment like the Furutech could reduce this high frequency contaminating noise, then we would expect to hear the sonic improvements being most dramatic for music's trebles and for its singular transients - which is exactly what we do hear.
Given that this noisy electromagnetic field is radiating into the space and air inside your CD player, how could it come to actually contaminate your music? After all, your music signal is safely traveling inside the conducting wires of the CD player's circuitry, isn't it? So who cares if there's spurious electromagnetic noise in the air outside these wires, right?
Well, it turns out that electromagnetic fields in the space and air just outside your CD player's wiring can also penetrate into that wiring, so if that field comprises contaminating noise, then that noise can add to or interfere with the signals in your CD player's wiring. The analog circuitry in your CD player is certainly vulnerable to signal degradation by interference from noise, but so also is all the digital circuitry in your CD player. Why? First, that so-called digital circuitry is actually analog circuitry, operating with precise thresholds and precise currents, whose level and/or precise timing can be contaminated, degraded, or made less determinate by noise. Second, it is now widely recognized that merely adding noise to a digital signal in your CD player can worsen jitter (by making thresholds more temporally indeterminate), which in turn worsens distortion of your music when that timing indeterminacy reaches your DAC chip. If the interfering noise has high frequency content, then this can cause high frequency jitter, which is especially destructive of music's higher frequencies, causing smearing kinds of distortion (from FM distortion sidebands spread over a wide and high frequency range).
Furthermore, it turns out that the desired signals running around in the wiring of your CD player are not really traveling inside the wires, but instead are actually traveling as electromagnetic fields in the space and air outside those wires - in the very same space and air also occupied by the noisy electromagnetic field from those spinning magnets on the CD. Since the desired CD player signals, representing your music, and the noise from the spinning CD magnets are both mixing it up in the same space and air, naturally there is cross contamination.


Is the spinning CD a spinning dynamo?



 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on May 23, 2016 at 03:53:34
geoffkait
 Jea48 wrote,

"I have found from personal experience that it does work."

Whether it works or not was not the reason for my OP. I realize several theories such as the ones you describe have been suggested for WHY demagnetizers work. I just don't buy them. If you wish to buy them that's your call.

Geoff Kait

 

Maybe this will help., posted on May 23, 2016 at 10:32:04
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 Link below:

 

6Moons, posted on May 23, 2016 at 10:34:23
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 Link below:

 

RE: Maybe this will help., posted on May 23, 2016 at 12:53:10
geoffkait
 Even if the ink used on the CD label is slightly magnetic due to trace ferrous elements the resulting magnetic field would not be large enough to have any effect on the laser beam or on any wiring in proximity to the laser. If you choose to believe what Furutech says that's OK with me. I choose not to. The magnetic field from a transformer or wven an AC wire nearby would far outweigh the puny magnetic field produced by the ink, assumed there is one, which I actually doubt.

 

And yet it does. Imagine that. nt., posted on May 23, 2016 at 13:10:28
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 nt.

 

You realize, just saying it does doesn't actually mean that it does., posted on May 23, 2016 at 13:14:25
geoffkait
 OK, Mr. Smarty Pants, let's assume for the sake of argument that there is a small magnetic field resulting from the ink. How do you propose that magnetic field results in degraded sound? And how do you propose demagnetizing the ink produces improved sound?

 

You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 23, 2016 at 17:21:05
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 Question?

What proof do you have the magnetism of the spinning CD does not have an impact on final sound?

Have you ran any tests? Do you have any hands on experience on the subject? You appear to be totally blind on the subject.

I supplied you with plenty of reading material on the subject.
Did you take the time to read any of it?

Before you ask anymore questions you should take the time and perform some simple tests on your own. You might even have some fun in the process.

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 24, 2016 at 04:19:52
geoffkait
 Ah, just as I suspected. You don't have an idea why demagnetization affects the sound. That's OK, neither did the reading material you provided.

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 24, 2016 at 08:35:51
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 geoffkait said:
That's OK, neither did the reading material you provided.


Sure it did. You just have a problem comprehending what you read.
The simple fact is you are too damn lazy to try and experiment for yourself. You can lead a horse to water Geoff, but,....

Quote:

Right, and the use of paste type contact enhancers such as Quicksilver Gold (pure silver spiked with gold) ensures a consistent and thorough contact of the fuse end caps with the fuse holder. And guess what? The fuses are still directional. Is this a good time to mention the elephant in the room - wire directionality? Not just fuse directionality, but directionality of interconnects, speaker cables, the wire in transformers, the wire in capacitors, internal wiring in electronics, the wiring in speakers and speaker crossovers, you name it. And power cords - even though they are in an AC circuit. Perhaps even RCA connectors and other stamped, rolled or drawn metal used in electonics. Maybe even fuse holders, though not for the reason suggested yesterday.


All BS according to you Geoff, Right? NO? Prove it. You can't, can you Geoff?

Where is the proof? Try your best to answer the question if you can Geoff.
Be sure to use the same logic as you have used on your responses on this thread. "Where's the beef?"


 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 24, 2016 at 13:51:02
geoffkait
 Ah, name calling is your way out. I didn't see that coming. I guess it was only a matter of time before your brain imploded. My suggestion: go back to school.

That you were still unable to answer my question is duly noted. Over and out.

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 24, 2016 at 14:12:51
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
geoffkait said:
Ah, name calling is your way out. I didn't see that coming. I guess it was only a matter of time before your brain imploded. My suggestion: go back to school.

That you were still unable to answer my question is duly noted. Over and out.

Name calling? 'Whatcha talkin bout Willis'?


AGAIN!

geoffkait said:
That's OK, neither did the reading material you provided.

Sure it did. You just have a problem comprehending what you read.
The simple fact is you are too damn lazy to try and experiment for yourself. You can lead a horse to water Geoff, but,....

Quote:

Right, and the use of paste type contact enhancers such as Quicksilver Gold (pure silver spiked with gold) ensures a consistent and thorough contact of the fuse end caps with the fuse holder. And guess what? The fuses are still directional. Is this a good time to mention the elephant in the room - wire directionality? Not just fuse directionality, but directionality of interconnects, speaker cables, the wire in transformers, the wire in capacitors, internal wiring in electronics, the wiring in speakers and speaker crossovers, you name it. And power cords - even though they are in an AC circuit. Perhaps even RCA connectors and other stamped, rolled or drawn metal used in electonics. Maybe even fuse holders, though not for the reason suggested yesterday.

All BS according to you Geoff, Right? NO? Prove it. You can't, can you Geoff?

Where is the proof? Try your best to answer the question if you can Geoff.
Be sure to use the same logic as you have used on your responses on this thread. "Where's the beef?"

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 24, 2016 at 15:53:58
geoffkait
 Did you forget to take your meds today?

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 24, 2016 at 17:41:26
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 That you were still unable to answer my question is duly noted.

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 25, 2016 at 05:05:49
geoffkait
 This discussion is not about wire directionality, it's about why a magnetized CD (assuming that's even possible) interferes with the sound. If you wish to debate wire directionality feel free to start a thread on the subject. I'm only asking for evidence or even a theory to back up your claim that magnetism is bad for the sound. One sentence will suffice.

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 25, 2016 at 07:16:42
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 Quote from Link below:

The three-dimensional graphs to the right were generated by a SPECTRA PROFET analyzer. The vertical axis represents time, the horizontal line shows frequency, and the height of the crests equates relative amplitude in dB.


Graphs 1 and 4 are pre, 2 and 3 post demagnetization.


According to the company's comments (which suffered marginally in their translation from the Japanese original), the 1kHz signal in graph 1 shows not only edge non-linearities but also white blank fields believed to be caused by reading errors.


Additionally, there are irregularities and excessive amounts of small crests in the 2 to 5KHz region.


After demagnetization, the 1kHz component shows up perfectly solid, the former signal dropout portion filled in and the upper edge non-ragged. The non-linearities in the upper bands turned uniform, and the height of the crests increased.


Furutech's engineers believe this is visible proof of improved S/N ratio and a reduction of read-error distortions.


Graphs 3 and 4 show an actual music signal, with graph 3 post-demagnetization. The encircled areas clearly show filled-in signal and increased crest height, indicating -- according to Furutech -- both improved data retrieval and once again extended dynamic range.


In other measurements accompanying my printout of their e-mail document, Furutech measured music signal in the areas of output power level, THD and S/N ratio. After treatment with their admittedly newer and improved RD-2 unit, output power level increased by 0.58dB, THD decreased by 1.12% and S/N ratio improved by 0.181%.


While these attempts at quantifying degaussing effects are genuinely laudable, they do show up as rather diminutive quantities generated by state-of-the-art machinery. How about our ears? (As it turns out in many experiments, human hearing often perceives things we can't -- or don't know how to -- measure while the reverse can also hold true.) To minimize the placebo effect, I dug into this tech data after my listening impressions had formed. Which moves us now from having this easy pie to consuming it.


Subjective human response

I started off with Zoltan Lantos' Eclipse [TR-2010], a phenomenally otherworldly solo violin album. The effects were subtle and obviously not repeatable with just one copy. Still, I felt certain that the RD-1 had shaved off a certain edge. The violin's overtones and 16 sympathetic strings were cleaner but lacked a degree of harshness, glare or raspiness. Let's call it enhanced smoothness without loss of resolution, perhaps a 10-15% improvement.


Can you relate to musical curtsies, the kind of formal movements period movies depict during baroque dancing? "An Sumnia" is one of my favorite tracks on Thierry 'Titi' Robin's Un Ciel de Cuivre [Naive Y225091], an authentic Gipsy caravan celebration around an -- imaginary -- camp fire. This track -- which by now I know by heart -- features a limping 5-based rhythm that the musicians execute with a very distinct "curtsy", a kind of elastic miniature suspension of the beat. The sense of "sub-beat" subtlety post-treatment was significantly enhanced as though whatever the degaussing had accomplished improved the tune's timing cues.


Another phenomenon pointing at the prior violin example was a change in the singer's metallic timbre so prized by the Gitanos. It didn't seem subdued but sounded more naturally the result of a human throat rather than electronic grittiness. I also involuntarily reached for the Bel Canto preamp's remote and cut volume by 1dB on its display.


When I got around to reading the above engineering data, I wasn't entirely surprised to see the claimed 0.58dB increase in measured output. I can't say whether the overall volume seemed louder or the peak output differential stretched. My reaction was simply spontaneous and unmeditated. This makes it inherently more trustworthy than elaborate justifications during explorations as fraught with potential exaggeration as these.


Trying El Potito's Mia pa los restos [Nuevos Medios 15 688], the before/after difference was similar to Robin's. Rhythmic events had more tautness and intrinsic tension, and minor inflective accents seemed stronger. Exploring other CDs, I eventually concluded that the improvements with complex material seemed more pronounced, as though more complicated signal equated more raw substance to be cleansed of whatever the RD-1 removed or straightened out.


Reserving final conclusions for the follow-up report when the RD-2 arrives, I'll leave you with the following comments today: The Furutech device does not work gratuitously in the frequency response domain. Different listeners would immediately latch onto aberrations or changes. Rather, its gentle touch affects the realm of timbre, rhythmic coherence and overall musical gestalt. That latter is hard to quantify. Let's just say that sounds assume a closer likeness to feeling real. On certain tracks this appeared more overt than on others, such as the background restaurant cues of silver ware moving in trays on Cielo's concluding bolero. Hearing the common rattle of silver ware had that unmistakable rightness of ... familiarity? (Yes, reviewers do dishes, even though their daily intake of musical calories is sometimes less than it should be.)


What's it mean?

I'm reminded of an old, well-worn simile - that of multiple window panes each adding their own fine contributions to distorting what is seen. As we remove one pane after the next, clarity continues to improve. But something more profound happens when we get to the last one. The degree of visual distortion removed is no larger a step than any of the preceding ones. Still, our senses, when finally admiring the landscape without any glass buffer but directly, undiluted, respond disproportionately strong. The change goes beyond simply seeing. It's become a more complete experience. Which of course is true - now we feel the air, smell the breeze and shoot it endlessly afterwards.


Something of that sort happened with the Furutech time and again. Hard to explain yet rather reliably felt. A cop-out weenie of a description? Perhaps, but it' the best I can do for now. Check back in a month or two when Harmonic Technology, the new importer, has the RD-2 in stock. At that time, I will also experiment with treating interconnects and other cables. They apparently can be coiled inside the RD's well and treated just like a CD, DVDs, metal terminals and sundry other goodies. For now, I confess to being rather taken by this device. Unlike the Bedini whose potential benefits eluded my ears more often than not, fellow pilgrim Sturdevant really is onto something here. If he wants this thing back -- and of course he does unless his vacation turns permanent, lucky devil -- the extent of my grief shall be the real arbiter of Furutech's invention. To be continued.



 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 25, 2016 at 08:02:18
geoffkait
 If you're trying to convince me that you can't understand my question you're doing an excellent job. Look, stop for a moment, take a deep breath and listen to my question rather than giving me this whole so-called explanation you copied from somewhere. And one that actually doesn't address my question.

The question is, what does a magnetized CD do to degrade the sound? You can answer that it affects the laser or it affect the circuitry for the laser servo or that it affect the signal. But that is what I'm looking for.

I'm not interesting in all this rigamarole how the CD gets magnetized. I'm already giving you that (for the purposes of the discussion). Show me anything that suggests, theorizes, indicates or illustrates that something in the player is affected by the magnetic field that would be SUFFICIENT to degrade the sound. I am letting you assume the CD is magnetizable. Now, it's your job to give some evidence, any evidence that the magnetic field is BAD and that demagnetizing the disc is GOOD. Keep in mind the magnetic field has to be BIG ENOUGH to actually affect something, it's not sufficient to say well, there is some minuscule teen weeny field a few micro Gauss bigger than the Earth's magnetic field.

NOTO BENE - Even the article you linked to admits THE DIFFERENCES IN MEASURED DATA ARE TOO SMALL TO BE AUDIBLE. Hel-loo! Wake up and smell the coffee!

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 25, 2016 at 08:39:45
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 Ah, name calling is your way out. I didn't see that coming. I guess it was only a matter of time before your brain imploded. My suggestion: go back to school.

That you were still unable to answer my question is duly noted.

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 25, 2016 at 14:19:13
geoffkait
 What was the question?

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 25, 2016 at 14:36:15
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 What is the answer?

I am not going to do your homework for you.

 

RE: You realize, just saying it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't., posted on May 25, 2016 at 15:04:51
geoffkait
 Yaaaawn!

 

Big yawn, posted on May 25, 2016 at 18:07:55
geoffkait
 The CD is wobbling and vibrating so much already the laser and servo mechanism can hardly keep up. A little magnetism isn't going to change that. Nell, the scattered light issue is worse than the magnetism by far. The photos in the 6 Moons article are totally unconvincing.

 

Continued on top of page under your original Posted Message. nt., posted on May 26, 2016 at 07:06:41
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 NT.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on May 26, 2016 at 07:07:07
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6770
Joined: January 5, 2005
 Theory! Do you know what it is?

Your words.
Quote:

Right, and the use of paste type contact enhancers such as Quicksilver Gold (pure silver spiked with gold) ensures a consistent and thorough contact of the fuse end caps with the fuse holder. And guess what? The fuses are still directional. Is this a good time to mention the elephant in the room - wire directionality? Not just fuse directionality, but directionality of interconnects, speaker cables, the wire in transformers, the wire in capacitors, internal wiring in electronics, the wiring in speakers and speaker crossovers, you name it. And power cords - even though they are in an AC circuit. Perhaps even RCA connectors and other stamped, rolled or drawn metal used in electonics. Maybe even fuse holders, though not for the reason suggested yesterday.

Theory! What has proven the Theory to be true, by some, but not all? Those that have actually taken the time to experiment and listen for themselves.


You repeatedly asked how, why,of proof, a CD can be magnetized. And how that can have a impact on the sound heard from an audio system. You want proof, other than someone can hear a difference, after the same CD is demagnetized.
Unlike your quoted material, I gave above, which is based on theory and not facts, other than it can be heard. That's fine with you though.... Just the fact that switching the direction of a cable or fuse can change the sound. All theory.... Proven by the listener.


.

.

Quote from link below. Again.....
Theory.

Furutech RD-1 CD Demagnetizer

Now, how on earth might the Furutech somehow reduce contaminating noise? What is there in a CD that might cause contaminating noise, and that might need demagnetizing? And how does a CD get re-magnetized by being played, such that it benefits from further demagnetizing after a few plays?
The Furutech people have two simple answers. Ink and impurities. The whole surface of a CD is covered with ink, to make up the printed label. These inks contain pigments, some of which are ferrous, hence permeable. The Furutech people also suggest that the aluminum in the reflective layer might well contain impurities, including iron.
Now, the CD rotates pretty fast (200 to 500 rpm), and any ferrous material will gradually become slightly magnetized over time if it is rapidly moving in a magnetic field (the earth's magnetic field will do, but there are doubtless other magnetic fields as well within a CD player). All right, so we have a CD with some slightly magnetized pieces of ink, spinning around inside your CD player. How does that cause contaminating noise in your music?
Let's assume that the brown pigment in brown ink is ferrous, and let's assume that some small lettering on the CD label is printed in brown ink. Let's assume that there are about 50 letters in the small lettering, which means that there are about 100 vertical ferrous bar magnets (for example, the letter H has two vertical bars), rotating around with the CD. These rotating bar magnets are putting an electromagnetic noise field into the space and air inside your CD player. If the CD is rotating at 8 Hz (480 rpm), and there are 100 discrete bar magnets going around at 8 Hz, then they are putting out noise with a fundamental at 800 Hz, together with all kinds of overtones spread upward throughout the rest of the musical spectrum (if we were to assume the bar magnets were purely rectangular and put out noise that looks like a square wave, there would be overtones at 2400 Hz, 4000 Hz, 5600 Hz, etc.)

You can see that this contaminating noise thrown into the air is rich in high frequency spectral content, so it would be most destructive of music's higher frequencies and of singular, non-repeating musical transients, if it were to somehow interfere with the music signal inside your CD player. And, if a CD treatment like the Furutech could reduce this high frequency contaminating noise, then we would expect to hear the sonic improvements being most dramatic for music's trebles and for its singular transients - which is exactly what we do hear.
Given that this noisy electromagnetic field is radiating into the space and air inside your CD player, how could it come to actually contaminate your music? After all, your music signal is safely traveling inside the conducting wires of the CD player's circuitry, isn't it? So who cares if there's spurious electromagnetic noise in the air outside these wires, right?
Well, it turns out that electromagnetic fields in the space and air just outside your CD player's wiring can also penetrate into that wiring, so if that field comprises contaminating noise, then that noise can add to or interfere with the signals in your CD player's wiring. The analog circuitry in your CD player is certainly vulnerable to signal degradation by interference from noise, but so also is all the digital circuitry in your CD player. Why? First, that so-called digital circuitry is actually analog circuitry, operating with precise thresholds and precise currents, whose level and/or precise timing can be contaminated, degraded, or made less determinate by noise. Second, it is now widely recognized that merely adding noise to a digital signal in your CD player can worsen jitter (by making thresholds more temporally indeterminate), which in turn worsens distortion of your music when that timing indeterminacy reaches your DAC chip. If the interfering noise has high frequency content, then this can cause high frequency jitter, which is especially destructive of music's higher frequencies, causing smearing kinds of distortion (from FM distortion sidebands spread over a wide and high frequency range).
Furthermore, it turns out that the desired signals running around in the wiring of your CD player are not really traveling inside the wires, but instead are actually traveling as electromagnetic fields in the space and air outside those wires - in the very same space and air also occupied by the noisy electromagnetic field from those spinning magnets on the CD. Since the desired CD player signals, representing your music, and the noise from the spinning CD magnets are both mixing it up in the same space and air, naturally there is cross contamination.

Is the spinning CD a spinning dynamo?

Why is it so difficult for you to understand the theory of a CD being magnetized/demagnetized and having a change on how the CD will sound in an audio system? Is it some kind of mental block in you mind?

You of all people, I consider a tweaker, can't accept the theory. Won't even take the time to experiment and listen for yourself to prove the theory wrong in your mind.

http://www.iar-80.com/page53.html (Open in New Window)

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on May 26, 2016 at 13:27:51
geoffkait
 To my knowledge, unless proven otherwise, nobody has ever shown that inks used on CD labels to contain ferrous elements or the aluminum or gold or alloy metal layer in CDs to contain any ferrous elements. Furutech is simply trying to come up with some "reasonable explanation" why their expensive demagnetizer works. It makes no difference to me who they are, manufacturer, whatever. They're not even the first manufacturer of demag devices so please give me a break. Now, unless you can provide one shred of evidence that either the ink is magnetizable or the metal layer is magnetizable I fear we are at an impass. See if you can lift the CD with a powerful magnet. Bet you can't.

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on June 16, 2016 at 13:52:46
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 It would be SIMPLE to test.
You need a coil of wire, a DRILL (or dremel, better yet) and a DVM.
SPIN the CD at high speed. Hold the coil close to the CD and measure for MV. (Milivolts)
Experiment with orientation of coil. Voltage should be in some way proportional to rotation speed.

Done and done.

Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on June 18, 2016 at 09:02:51
Tweaker456
 I get 14mv. It sounds pretty good also when I demag the cd. T

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on June 18, 2016 at 09:42:40
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 More data needed.
Does voltage RISE with rotation Speed? I would ALSO expect sensitivity to COIL ORIENTATION. This would depend on the SHAPE of the coil. I would use a long coil, with a couple hundred feet of #30 or so magnet wire around a #10 x 2 1/2" machine screw. When I made such a coil for an experiment, I used washers at each end which I had INSULATED with CORK.

Orienting long way with the radius should be a different effect than PERPENDICULAR TO the radius.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on June 19, 2016 at 09:28:06
Tweaker456
 Yeah PG, That's what I did already. I also tried demagnetizing CD's a long time ago and liked the result. I do it every time before I listen. T

 

RE: So what's the deal with CD demagnetizers?, posted on June 19, 2016 at 10:20:31
geoffkait
 Everybody and their brother knows it works. The question I posed in the OP is why? Hel-loo!

 

How about encasing the mechanism?, posted on July 4, 2016 at 11:51:33
Bry
Manufacturer

Posts: 5610
Location: S. Florida
Joined: July 21, 2005
 Most CD players have the mechanism sitting in the open in the enclosure. If it were encased in a shield it seems like you get some benefit without having to mess with each CD.

 

RE: How about encasing the mechanism?, posted on July 6, 2016 at 04:23:46
geoffkait
 Good idea. I'll try it.

 

RE: How about encasing the mechanism?, posted on July 22, 2016 at 11:43:11
JURB
Audiophile

Posts: 2056
Location: North Ohio
Joined: May 29, 2016
 I had to jump through so I do not know if this has been covered - but whole ordeal indicates a lack of understand of how a CD works.

The pits in a stamped CD are ¼ wavelength of light which causes a cancellation of the reflected beam. With a burned CD they are a layer of photographic type material in the layer which is darkened by the burning LASER.

A magnetic field does not affect either, this is physics, this is fact and indisputable.

For a magnetic field to affect the output of the LASER pickup it would have to be such a strong field that it would affect the LASERs ability to focus. The layer of whatever on the CD, burned or stamped simply does not have the mass to have such a field.

Facts of life folks, waste your money on something else. Otherwise, I got some DVD rewinders for sale.

 

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