Propeller Head Plaza

Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics.

Return to Propeller Head Plaza

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Page: [ 1 ] [ 2 ]

Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much

24.171.132.34
Posted on January 1, 2012 at 02:48:19
sudz1234@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1545
Joined: February 20, 2011
 I recently got a new pre-amp so I have been trying out cables from the cable company. Well I have to tell you the differences are so slight that in a blind test I could not tell the difference. I'm now trying to find the least expensive cable that sounds good. I wonder if this is just my pre-amp. I'm not complaining about the sound. I just expected the difference in cables to be greater.

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
you've done it now, posted on January 1, 2012 at 03:17:30
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 10070
Location: So. California
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 battle stations; entering defcon 5






may the bridges I burn light the way...



 

disagree, posted on January 1, 2012 at 03:34:56
Shane from AUS


 
Especially speaker cables. Mu Nordost, Ttransparent and Kimber all sound quite different tonally and how they present the music.

 

Let me guess; you are conducting the blind tests by yourself? …, posted on January 1, 2012 at 03:40:33
three_sox
Audiophile

Posts: 19981
Location: Aussie (New South Wales)
Joined: August 10, 2004
 ...Maybe the cables made your digital sound 20% better with your new pre?





Smile

Sox




 

I tend to agree, cables are a moderate tweak, not some big revelation, posted on January 1, 2012 at 04:01:36
Elizabeth
Audiophile

Posts: 10058
Location: Great Lakes Region
Joined: December 20, 2000
 I think most folks find a small change they like and have a natural tendency to proclaim the change as some major difference (a'miracle')

I do not spend too much on cables, I would rather spend the big money on the equipment itself, as the 'bang for the buck' best deal.

Naturally many disagree.
We all find our own path in the world, so who am i to try discrediting thier findings.
Then also naturally are those who find wire is, after all, just wire, and any wires with good electrical characteristics are fine, and all those who believe wire can make a big difference are misguided or deluding themselves.

I choose to believe IN MODERATION. So i spend a little more than the minimum on cables.. but not a whole lot more.
To each thier own.

Sudz: how much time are you allowing for each cable, to judge the sound?

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 04:47:42
tmsorosk
Audiophile

Posts: 1412
Location: Sprucegrove Ab.
Joined: October 31, 2010
 Your crazy. I think you should have said inexpensive cables sound slightly different. If you have the opportunity try some high end cable's without purchasing them, the difference is not subtle.

 

Do you stay awake nights making a checklist...., posted on January 1, 2012 at 04:56:25
genungo
Audiophile

Posts: 2726
Location: Rocky Mountains
Joined: July 7, 2010
 ... of troll-ish topics to post on General Asylum? I only ask because the attacks leveled upon my brain would seem to be both calculated and premeditated.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 05:17:35
Coytee
Audiophile

Posts: 44
Location: Jax, FL and Knox, TN
Joined: May 19, 2010
 I agree with you (the OP)

I had a mix of cables. Most were the cables tossed in the box with a new purchase of a CD/DVD/VCR player (you know, those of the highest 1,000 gage chinese quality) and I also had at least one "Gold End" made by Discwasher that I bought approximately 1980. (yes 1980)

I had some lengths of Mogami Neglex left over from my home installation so decided to not toss it out (shows how much thought I put into cable scraps).

Instead, I thought I'd make some new cables and try it out.

I bought some Neutrik RCA ends for my RCA runs. I also bought some Neutrik XLR ends for my XLR runs and made the cables.

There is no "OMG" difference.

In fact, once I find my (new) digital camera that got lost in my recent move....or (gack) buy another one, I'll probably put some Audioquest wires on ebay so I can get rid of them. These were not in my system and I acquired them in an estate purchase.

I figure someone will pay $25/50 for them :)

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 05:50:58
Kirk57
Audiophile

Posts: 374
Location: Chicago's North Shore
Joined: December 9, 2008
 I'm not surprised by your findings, but it would be helpful if you specified what your pre is and what cables you tried

 

Hint: , posted on January 1, 2012 at 06:06:06
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 17641
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 this is NOT the cable asylum. Get a clue.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 06:06:18
lesleymorley@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 168
Location: Seatle, Wa. USA
Joined: September 19, 2007
 I agree... slight difference in interconnects, a little more difference in speaker cables.
I have been using anti-cables for my speakers the last few years, and they beat out much more expensive cables on many occasions but only by a little.
I always wonder, why spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars extra on cables, when that money spent on "better" speakers would make a great deal more difference.
I would say that the differences in even phono cartridges is far far greater than in cables. IMHO of course.
,

 

listen to one cable for a few weeks then switch and see if you can tell a difference, posted on January 1, 2012 at 06:21:06
PhilJ
Audiophile

Posts: 1459
Joined: January 20, 2002
 the best way to listen for differences IMO

 

My take, posted on January 1, 2012 at 08:57:53
Awe-d-o-file
Manufacturer

Posts: 8714
Location: 100 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
Contributor
  Since: October 31, 2005
 Power cables change things most followed by interconnects then speaker cables. This has been my experience. Also as I upgraded my gear/system I was able to discern cable changes more easily.


ET


 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 09:01:12
alexs
Manufacturer

Posts: 112
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: April 22, 2002
 OK, I'll call you crazy. Were the dogs barking when you were comparing cables?

 

holy MOLEY!, posted on January 1, 2012 at 09:54:15
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 12279
Location: shaky sylmar calif, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 you guys arent as sick as the general public thinks you are. actually suggesting moderation and long term listening flies in the face of the accusations i have seen jettisoned in our direction.

methinks this asylum is more of a refuge.
...regards...tr

 

Hearing is believing, posted on January 1, 2012 at 10:08:19
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 11560
Joined: September 23, 1999
 If you don't believe it, you won't hear it.

MK

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 10:34:17
OneTinSoldier
Audiophile

Posts: 305
Location: Clearlake, california
Joined: April 26, 2009
 ok, you are crazy.





and you are correct.
On the bloody morning after, one tin soldier rides away,,,

 

Be happy and buy the cheapest. nt, posted on January 1, 2012 at 10:47:48
Norm
Reviewer

Posts: 30929
Joined: September 6, 2000
 a

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 10:58:41
fstein
Audiophile

Posts: 693
Location: fstein
Joined: May 18, 2006
 Instead of thousands for cables, buy a decent vintage integrated or preamp with tone controls.....

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 11:06:05
oldmkvi
Industry Professional

Posts: 3364
Joined: April 12, 2002
 Monster Sigma-Retro Gold. If you can't hear that, you're deaf.

 

OK...you're CrAzY...., posted on January 1, 2012 at 11:33:04
JoeKool
Audiophile

Posts: 769
Location: NYC
Joined: May 9, 2003
 I hear major differences with cables in my and two other friends' systems.
You CrAzY Sudz! LOL

 

time, posted on January 1, 2012 at 12:31:34
Joe Murphy Jr
Audiophile

Posts: 4332
Joined: February 3, 2001
 You need to spend some time with the cables you have to audition. A few times I have changed out cables and thought the new ones were better. But after a few weeks of listening, out they came.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 12:40:09
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1612
Joined: April 23, 2007
 Crazy!....there are huge differences in cables.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 13:14:31
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 2464
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 I really think what it comes down to is if you don't hear differences then don't spend a lot of money on cables. Cable differences are very system dependent depending on source and load impedences. I have had some equipment where different cables made very small if any sonic changes while with different equipment the changes were very noticeable. In audio you will never believe anything until you experience it for yourself. Unlike a poster below if you don't hear it you won't believe
Alan

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 14:38:55
ron w2
Audiophile

Posts: 229
Joined: September 28, 2010
 Interconnects can make a huge difference. When I purchased a pair of Merlin VSM SEs I had some high-end Audioquest interconnects. The speakers were so bright they ran everyone out of the room. I then tried Tara Labs. The sound was even worse. At the insistence of the dealer, I bought some Cardas Neutral Reference interconnects. The cables tamed the high end considerably. So some speakers obviously require tuning that can be accomplished with the right cables.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 14:46:17
ron w2
Audiophile

Posts: 229
Joined: September 28, 2010
 In my previous post, I failed to mention that I also tried some Transparent interconnects. You know. The ones with the magic black box (filter). They sure tamed the high-frequency zippiness but turned the Merlins into real snoozers. No life whatsoever. Ultimately I decided that speakers that require certain cables must be fundamentally flawed and went with a pair of Dunlavy SC-IVa's, an incredible speaker.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 16:18:47
hesson11
Audiophile

Posts: 1707
Location: Florida
Joined: December 8, 2005
 I never thought I'd say this, sudz, but your comments sound perfectly reasonable.

-Bob

 

I wonder if it is likely that the ratio of source impedance to destination impedance is a factor, posted on January 1, 2012 at 17:20:11
Timbo in Oz
Audiophile

Posts: 14978
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002
 My valve pre has a z out of about 600 ohms? (an NoS 12AU7 in cathode follower mode (Brimar 13D5) and feeds two valve amps whose input impedance is many times that of the average SS amp. The major difference I hear in my system for the longish pre-power run is noise and RFI.

The current quite long interconnects (14 feet) are coaxial digital network cable, bendy but still stiff. 'BRAND-REX LTD DIGITAL 1701248 20AWG SHIELDED TYPE 60degC (UL)’. I think it's LAN cable Char Z is 50 ohm IIRC.

It isn't bright, or tizzy, or boomy or muddy or anything. Some real stereo recordings have so much depth it's weird, though. And all the music sounds just fine. It is a bit quieter than the Neuman mike cable I was using, and it was cheaper.

I do use some VDH IC's, between sources and the pre-but mostly I make up my own.

Short spkr wires are a GOOD idea.

On this matter, you're not crazy!


Warmest

Timothy Bailey

The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio Scrounger

And gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!

'Still not saluting.'

 

You're Crazy.........., posted on January 1, 2012 at 23:38:48
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 29972
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 Just kidding...... [-;

Not everybody hears things the same way....... If one doesn't notice much change in cables, that's cool. Enjoy!!

 

you havent listed your system in 'inmate systems', posted on January 2, 2012 at 01:15:22
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 12279
Location: shaky sylmar calif, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 for all we know its a yorx.
...regards...tr

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 2, 2012 at 09:30:36
sudz1234@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1545
Joined: February 20, 2011
 Thanks for those that agree.

 

I will resist the temptation to reply to this!, posted on January 2, 2012 at 12:53:38
Drumhead
Audiophile

Posts: 181
Location: Atl, GA
Joined: May 24, 2009
 DOH!

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 2, 2012 at 12:57:08
Chris K.
Audiophile

Posts: 155
Location: West Central Florida
Joined: August 15, 2001
 My experience has been that the higher the resolution of a system, the greater the difference cabling can make. Thus, it is quite system dependent. I swapped a few interconnects in and out last night. The differences between the Kimber Hero and the DH Labs BL-1 were negligible, but the Audioquest Jaguar increased the size and height of the images while reducing the hot edge of the top end. They can make a difference, but much depends on your equipment and the cables themselves.

 

RE: disagree, posted on January 1, 2012 at 07:50:04
sudz1234@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1545
Joined: February 20, 2011
 I am only referring to Interconnects. I have not tried speaker cable.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 12:42:14
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1612
Joined: April 23, 2007
 tmsorosk....ALL cables sound very different...some inexpensive cables sound better than the highest priced spread in some systems

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 20:35:11
Hi Fi Spicoli
Audiophile

Posts: 134
Joined: November 7, 2010
 Completely agree...my experience has been that difference between 100 dollar power cable and 1000 dollar power cable...amazing... difference between 1000 dollar power cable and 10000 dollar power cable...nice but not as dramatic...hi fi is a lesson in the law of diminishing returns...

 

Pocket digital cameras have become..., posted on January 1, 2012 at 06:12:14
Bizango1
Audiophile

Posts: 61
Location: Norcal
Joined: December 3, 2011
 ...so small and convenient that I have lost and found two of them. Now I have three. Duh.

 

RE: My take, posted on January 1, 2012 at 14:26:19
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1612
Joined: April 23, 2007
 Awe-d-0....I absolutely agree

 

RE: Hearing is believing, posted on January 1, 2012 at 16:20:02
hesson11
Audiophile

Posts: 1707
Location: Florida
Joined: December 8, 2005
 And, of course, if you DO believe it, you will.
-Bob

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 1, 2012 at 13:19:24
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 2464
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 You need to allow the fact that not everybody agrees with you. I hear cable differences but not all the time. Some of the time the differences are significant and other times they are very small or even non-existent. IMHO
Alan

 

RE: Hearing is believing, posted on January 1, 2012 at 16:30:54
ron w2
Audiophile

Posts: 229
Joined: September 28, 2010
 Of course, a prerequisite is that you have associated equipment capable of sufficient resolution to make a difference . . .

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 2, 2012 at 02:15:09
ron w2
Audiophile

Posts: 229
Joined: September 28, 2010
 How much have you actually experimented with different cables? I was as skeptical as anyone, but I was willing to listen. And it's not always about how much a cable costs. It's about system matching. Some speakers -- like the ones I referenced earlier -- require major taming. If you're willing to listen, I think you will discover that what I'm saying is true.

 

that much, posted on January 2, 2012 at 10:46:58
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 12279
Location: shaky sylmar calif, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 the better your system, the more difference the wires make. with constellation electronics, i wouldn't be looking at blue jeans cable.
...regards...tr

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 2, 2012 at 12:44:41
ron w2
Audiophile

Posts: 229
Joined: September 28, 2010
 If that's what you want to believe, go for it. Your happiness is what matters, right? And ignorance is indeed bliss.



 

The difference in cables tends to be a profound thing., posted on January 2, 2012 at 13:17:39
Duster
Audiophile

Posts: 9536
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 To thank folks who agree with you in this particular matter is meaningless. It does not make what seems to be a lack of perception any more valid. Perhaps it's simply a wish to skirt the Cable Asylum Mission Statement (see link below). It's far more silly to admit a lack of perception than the audible findings of those who share observations with other audiophiles who may actually identify the exact same sonic signatures and artifacts of particular make/model cables. Furthermore, evaluating sonic differences between various audio devices including cables is not mass hysteria nor magic thinking, it's an essential nature of this audiophile hobby. my 2 pennies

 

Duster, the OP did not post this thread on Cable AA., posted on January 2, 2012 at 13:33:02
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6032
Location: Midwest
Joined: January 5, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 6, 2005
 The OP posted the message on General AA and the moderator moved it here.
Jim

 

RE: disagree, posted on January 2, 2012 at 15:03:21
ron w2
Audiophile

Posts: 229
Joined: September 28, 2010
 Sudz: What interconnects did you use? And what equipment were you using?

 

RE: The difference in cables tends to be a profound thing., posted on January 2, 2012 at 16:02:44
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 5199
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 16, 2010
 Hmmm, thread relegated to the desert just as I was typing a response to you. Bummer!

I found your post curiously unresponsive to that of the OP. Far as I can tell he's innocent of all of your accusations and was just sharing his experiences...

Anyhow the comment I was trying to make is that I think the disconnect is semantically driven because my experiences more or less match both yours and those of the OP. I would say that most of the time cables have a fairly subtle effect upon the sound, but none-the-less that effect may make a profound difference in my enjoyment. That's simply one of the things that makes home audio so interesting to me.

I find interconnects to need the most TLC but it probably depends a lot on how the gear is implemented and the environment that it's in. And perhaps the sensitivities of the listener to particular artifacts...

Rick

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 2, 2012 at 16:04:17
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 10391
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since: February 24, 2009
 Given that you hear differences only some of the time, how do you know that the differences are caused by the cables and not by you or "the time"?

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

LOL, this post is HOTTER than a hot potato!, posted on January 2, 2012 at 16:11:50
jea48
Audiophile

Posts: 6032
Location: Midwest
Joined: January 5, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 6, 2005
 General moderator kicks it over to Cable and the Cable moderator has kicked it to Propeller Head Plaza.

Any bets where it is headed next?

 

Galactic dust bin? nt, posted on January 2, 2012 at 16:15:12
Elizabeth
Audiophile

Posts: 10058
Location: Great Lakes Region
Joined: December 20, 2000
 .

 

Agree, and especially the way you say it. My only quibble is worth it? or better main equipment, posted on January 2, 2012 at 16:21:33
Elizabeth
Audiophile

Posts: 10058
Location: Great Lakes Region
Joined: December 20, 2000
 For us middling spenders.. Spending a lot on a cable means NOT spending it on the primary equipment. Which I (FWIW) just always spend it on the primary equipment.
Adding thousands to the cables is not as advancing (for sound) as buying better equipment.
I have nothing against quaality cables.. Just the cost performance vs spending it on primary equipment. (though I have found great conditioning actually makes up for some equipment upgrading.. think power supply in electronics vs external...)

If I were a multi-millionaire.. I'd be in the mega $$$ cable camp too.

 

Once again, Sudz hits a homerun!! LOL!! nt, posted on January 2, 2012 at 17:23:00
Snyder
Audiophile

Posts: 125
Location: S.E. PA
Joined: February 6, 2011
 ..

 

Beats another 'kurt s' post that no one can respond to! :-, posted on January 2, 2012 at 18:48:10
asdf
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Location: USA
Joined: January 1, 2012

 

Interestingly targeted first post , posted on January 3, 2012 at 07:51:44
The Bored
Bored Member

Posts: 1922
Joined: July 28, 2000
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 for a newly registered member.

Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera...
Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white,
clear as crystal! Blah, blah, and so on and so forth ...

 

Who is the target? 'kurt s' or others here not 'kurt s'? ;-) nt, posted on January 3, 2012 at 17:51:19
asdf
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Location: USA
Joined: January 1, 2012

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 3, 2012 at 19:25:38
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 11966
Location: Fredericton NB, Canada
Joined: June 20, 2000
 So you are really asking about interconnects. The term "cable" is ambiguous since it can cover speaker cables and power cords as well as interconnects.

The interconnects supplied with various pieces of equipment should work perfectly well. Forget about unshielded interconnects. The main trouble with inexpensive interconnects is that the ones I have seen are not very robust and they may be damaged after a while if you change them around or take them out to clean them every once in a while. So, somewhat more expensive ones that appeared to be well made and tough may be more convenient in the long term. Also, the connectors may be gold plated so as to inhibit corrosion.

Difference in sound? If the shielded interconnects have clean connections there is no general reason why they should make a difference in sound at line level. Damaged interconnects or corroded connections can easily make an audible difference.

At phono level, differences in cable capacitance may make an audible difference with some phono cartridges. My cartridge likes some capacitance, and my preamp has control to add some capacitance.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

The other issue, posted on January 4, 2012 at 17:05:11
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 2951
Joined: April 13, 2010
 is that the cables are not identified.

A coaxial 50 ohm cable may sound pretty much alike no matter who the manufacturer is.

Stu

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 6, 2012 at 15:30:52
geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 6243
Location: northern Virginia
Joined: August 23, 2000
 But we're not talking about damaged cables here, of course. That's the whole point -- do cables make a difference? Looks like the 30 year old debate continueth.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 8, 2012 at 15:53:03
timind
Audiophile

Posts: 47
Location: Indy
Joined: September 16, 2006
 Will it ever end?

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 9, 2012 at 05:59:36
geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 6243
Location: northern Virginia
Joined: August 23, 2000
 Gee, I certainly hope not.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 12, 2012 at 14:44:31
kerr
Audiophile

Posts: 4228
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: November 10, 2003
 I think you'll continue to get your wish. Some folks are just slow to pick up on discoveries from a mere 40 years ago.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on January 25, 2012 at 05:06:45
robert920rogers@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 664
Location: southern california
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I have never had one tweak or upgrade blow me away but what has happened is a lot of small things have created a better system.Like a drag racer trying to lower his et there are many thinge he has to do all over his car to create a perfect package.

 

Try hard wiring just your ac cord. , posted on February 7, 2012 at 09:18:56
Norm
Reviewer

Posts: 30929
Joined: September 6, 2000
 Manufactures tend to avoid the issue of what power cord to include or recommend by putting an IEC chassis mount on. This did not used to be the case. If you try this once, you will never go any further.

Why do I not do this? Basically, because of resell issues.

I must say also, that I once hard wired to my outlet to my amp. It was magnificent but unsafe. Don't try it. All contacts are disastrous!

 

RE: Try hard wiring just your ac cord. , posted on February 7, 2012 at 13:50:11
geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 6243
Location: northern Virginia
Joined: August 23, 2000
 Guese we can assume you've never soldered vacuum tube pins to the tube sockets.

 

The spirit of Sudz remains...........nt, posted on February 7, 2012 at 19:08:02
Snyder
Audiophile

Posts: 125
Location: S.E. PA
Joined: February 6, 2011
 Hahahaha etc.

 

You are right, but I did use briefly the silver lotion from Walker Audio., posted on February 8, 2012 at 06:02:17
Norm
Reviewer

Posts: 30929
Joined: September 6, 2000
 I gave up when I learned that it baked on.

 

RE: silver lotion, posted on February 8, 2012 at 06:38:10
geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 6243
Location: northern Virginia
Joined: August 23, 2000
 I use Xtreme AV Quicksilver Gold on tube pins, no problems.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on February 17, 2012 at 14:20:58
middleground
Audiophile

Posts: 21637
Location: Sherbrooke, Quebec
Joined: December 23, 2001
 You forgot to drink the Kool-Aid before listening.

Try again!

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on February 26, 2012 at 14:44:08
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 2703
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 In manufacturing we called that ....'Continuous process improvement'.

However, in manufacturing, the results were measurable in that you threw less stuff in the trash which didn't work to specification.

In your stereo? Opinion rules.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on March 6, 2012 at 03:04:07
Pam1
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: Nebraska
Joined: July 9, 2009
 Well there are a lot of differences between cables... I got interested in audio in the first place by experimenting with Thorston Losch's Ubyte cables, 16 KW RF transmitter coax, silver wire wrap wire, Litz wire and microwave cable etc.

That being said, is the sound related to the $ spent... not really. Is the difference huge... can be but usually pretty subtle or even indistinguishable in double blind tests. Try some DIY cables using various designs and pick what you like in your system. Cheaper, much cheaper that way.

Especially considering that moving the speakers (toe in our out, distance from wall and between each other) some fake trees or a well placed wall hanging or some traps can make a much larger difference.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on March 8, 2012 at 07:41:18
adaug
Audiophile

Posts: 485
Location: chicago
Joined: December 4, 2007
 ok, so you have the good fortune of finding out that you dont need to spend much if anything on that particular potential upgrade for your particular tastes in sound.

if it aint broke, dont fix it.

move on to speaker cables, power cords etc and see if upgrading there makes a positive diff. for you or not.


-andre d

 

I did a double take to see if this was "Prop head plaza", posted on March 19, 2012 at 14:58:39
sunnysal
Audiophile

Posts: 833
Location: Central America
Joined: May 27, 2000
Contributor
  Since: August 6, 2000
 I miss some of the more technical and scientific discussions that went on here. "I don't hear it", "I don't like the sound of it" gets old really quick for me. T
Jean-Francois Lessard 2A3 PP amp
Marantz 7T Preamp
Klipschorns w/ALK xovers
Squeezebox Touch
Asus netbook running itunes and LMS feeding
MSB link DACIII w24/96k
MSB digital director
Technics M85 Cassette

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on May 20, 2012 at 04:21:12
thebordas
Audiophile

Posts: 688
Location: S.E. Pa
Joined: September 12, 2008
 I have a mint pair of retro Gold IC's that I must sell to pay some bills. All paperwork and aluminum case included!
dave_b

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on May 20, 2012 at 10:13:03
finski
Audiophile

Posts: 142
Joined: May 2, 2011
 Quote Bob Ohllson(sp): Legitimate double blind tests require that subjects be trained to hear specific artifacts. This is because our hearing ranges over a huge dynamic range like a long fast telephoto lens with a very short depth of field. Appropriate training is virtually impossible with cables and connectors which means one will almost always get a random result that is utterly meaningless in spite of sounding "scientific."

This post appeared in a cable thread(everything rosy), now closed. I thought it was an excellent post, and suitable to this thread. the bordas apparently agreed but for the wrong reason. the bordas, you seem completely disconnected from reality. Of course in these scary days that may be a 'good place'. Pardon me, but I doubt many in the prop head place will be eager to take you up.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on May 20, 2012 at 11:03:36
thebordas
Audiophile

Posts: 688
Location: S.E. Pa
Joined: September 12, 2008
 Could you explain?? Are you one of the 99% who deny reality and have convinced yourself that radio shack cables are just fine, or are you part of the uber elite who can afford anything but have decided to cast off the shackles of capitalistic pursuits? Maybe if you actually completed a thought and composed a cogent message without cryptic inuendo, I would be able to grasp your golden nuggets of wisdom...or are they just tirds?
dave_b

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on May 20, 2012 at 21:14:34
finski
Audiophile

Posts: 142
Joined: May 2, 2011
 Dude, anyone can read your reply to that post and anyone can read the tripe you posted above here. You know nothing about my systems, yet I know apparently everything about yours.You substantiate nothing, just drone on about jaw-dropping realisim from your cables. You have a problem, brother, you are an embarrassment to audio enthusiasts that use their heads. It would be funny if it wasn't so terribly sad.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on May 21, 2012 at 04:15:31
thebordas
Audiophile

Posts: 688
Location: S.E. Pa
Joined: September 12, 2008
 Finski, are you sure you are slamming the right person? I really have no idea what you are referencing. My only post on this thread was regarding my Retro Gold IC's that I'm gonna sell....are you confusing me with THEBORED post before me ??????????
dave_b

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on May 21, 2012 at 05:08:58
thebordas
Audiophile

Posts: 688
Location: S.E. Pa
Joined: September 12, 2008
 I just scanned the entire post and found nothing from you or any interaction between you and I anywhere here....what the fuck is your deal? Of course I don't know you! You DO NOT know me either. All I ask is that you be clear and substantiate your accusations or blanket slams toward me. I notice you just joined last year....I have been an avid audiophile for over 30 years. I have played in bands, attended some of the finest concert halls since I was 15, attend live concerts regularly and most likely have personally owned more high end gear in more environments than most of the well intentioned Prop Heads above. You are an audiophile racist.....you judge without any real understanding or experience comparable with mine. Then again, I can only speculate, do to the fact that you prefer to remain a mystery, so you can remain disconnected from the reality of an actual conversation between two intelligent individuals. Well, one anyway, who eagerly awaits illumination on the finer points of systems matching, cablenomics and why all cables sound the same. Ever wonder why two seemingly identical violins can be valued so differently? Why one is worth hundreds and the other is priceless? It's because some musicians and concert goers can appreciate exceptional tone....not everyone, but some. Going back to what my intent was on a post that somehow got linked to this one (which is uniquely geeky in itself), was that random mixes of people judging subjective and emotional gear/material being played back under experimental conditions with a check list is inherently dumb and will yield useless results. I have owned several $80K systems over the years, as well as $5K systems. I have owned, borrowed and been lent prototype cables from the who's who of the cable world as well. My experience as a musician, audiophile and avid concert goer who has OWNED more of the stuff discussed on threads like these than most, unavoidably offers me a broader basis of understanding regarding topics such as the aforementioned, for which you obliquely and unjustifiably attacked me!
dave_b

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on May 21, 2012 at 08:22:05
finski
Audiophile

Posts: 142
Joined: May 2, 2011
 Wow. http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=cables&m=156041

and your review recently of the MIT cables, the one that vanished remember? a doozy..............

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on May 21, 2012 at 08:34:33
thebordas
Audiophile

Posts: 688
Location: S.E. Pa
Joined: September 12, 2008
 The review is under the "review section", where it belongs. I still don't get where your coming from at all? I keep waiting for an actual point to be made that is specific and meaningful and with context and some sort of counter response that involves more than re-posting me or being cryptic. Is that so much to ask?
dave_b

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on May 21, 2012 at 13:28:24
finski
Audiophile

Posts: 142
Joined: May 2, 2011
 In order:

No, it isn't.
That's because you cant read.
Havent re-posted you. not once.
Yes, it is.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on May 21, 2012 at 13:58:46
thebordas
Audiophile

Posts: 688
Location: S.E. Pa
Joined: September 12, 2008
 Wow...ok, have a nice day! Oh, by the way, I found someone who understands the value of a beutifully useless thing....the Retro Golds ship tommorrow:O)
dave_b

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on May 21, 2012 at 15:49:40
finski
Audiophile

Posts: 142
Joined: May 2, 2011
 run along and pay those bills then.....

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on May 23, 2012 at 05:05:07
thebordas
Audiophile

Posts: 688
Location: S.E. Pa
Joined: September 12, 2008
 Payed the bill:O) Also ordered 2 new pair of Matrix HD23 IC's...I hate when I get those zero interest checks good for one year:O( Have a fun summer protesting with the 99%ers Professor Finski! I hear that Home Depot is gonna run a huge sale for 4th of July on bulk wire....stock up for all your future DIY projects.
dave_b

 

once again i nag, posted on May 31, 2012 at 06:54:07
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 12279
Location: shaky sylmar calif, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 list your system on 'inmate systems' so that we can determine if any difference at all can be heard in your equipment combination. without that, we can assume that your Yorx table top stereo can only tell if the ac wire isnt plugged in.

if you want to be taken seriously, you need to be more forthcoming.



...regards...tr

 

RE: once again i nag, posted on May 31, 2012 at 08:23:28
finski
Audiophile

Posts: 142
Joined: May 2, 2011
 Hi Tommy, who are you addressing?

 

i nag sudz as i have before, posted on May 31, 2012 at 09:14:36
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 12279
Location: shaky sylmar calif, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 although it applies to all. if you havent listed your system in 'inmate systems, please do so.
...regards...tr

 

RE: i nag sudz as i have before, posted on May 31, 2012 at 13:57:17
finski
Audiophile

Posts: 142
Joined: May 2, 2011
 Tommy, you dont really have to work that hard to find out. Not as hard as you did filling out your own section:

Suds posted this a few days back. I hope you're not going to suggest his system isnt resolving enough to come to his conclusions....

Arc vt-100mkIII
Arc Ls-27
Arc Ph-5
Vpi Aries
Gamut Cd-1
Dynaudio C-1's
Audience power cables
Acoustic Zen speaker cables
Cardas phono cable
Audience Interconnects
Custom TT stand
Billy bags stand
Vpi sds
Mcintosh Mr-78


I think you would have to be somewhat gifted to explain what's wrong.....

 

RE: i nag sudz as i have before, posted on June 1, 2012 at 11:05:00
finski
Audiophile

Posts: 142
Joined: May 2, 2011
 I find it really funny that there was no further comment on that..

 

But then I also find it really funny, posted on June 1, 2012 at 11:07:14
finski
Audiophile

Posts: 142
Joined: May 2, 2011
 that Prop Heads is referred to as 'the desert' when it's accessed in exactly the same way as the cable forum.........

Maybe it should be renamed: How about Honesty Hall?

 

RE: i nag sudz as i have before, posted on June 2, 2012 at 19:33:01
thebordas
Audiophile

Posts: 688
Location: S.E. Pa
Joined: September 12, 2008
 Where is sudz? He has expensive cables listed....so what's wrong with this picture?
dave_b

 

erm, even though he has em,, posted on June 3, 2012 at 13:01:19
finski
Audiophile

Posts: 142
Joined: May 2, 2011
 they just dont do it for him....

 

RE: erm, even though he has em,, posted on June 3, 2012 at 13:51:23
thebordas
Audiophile

Posts: 688
Location: S.E. Pa
Joined: September 12, 2008
 Yeah, he needs to get MIT's! Hee Hee :O))
dave_b

 

oh you would.., posted on June 3, 2012 at 18:56:34
finski
Audiophile

Posts: 142
Joined: May 2, 2011
 I just threw up in my mouth a bit.....

 

RE: oh you would.., posted on June 4, 2012 at 03:38:05
thebordas
Audiophile

Posts: 688
Location: S.E. Pa
Joined: September 12, 2008
 MIT cables make an excellent anti-memetic:O) Cheers!
dave_b

 

Call me crazy but... you not it your cros-over circuits., posted on August 4, 2012 at 19:08:25
CJ Larson
Industry Professional

Posts: 36
Location: West USA
Joined: May 15, 2008
Contributor
  Since: October 4, 2008
 Hey Sudz,

It really should not be any surprise that you
have a hard time in hearing significant
differences between cables.

You may be able hear some slightly audible variances, but
the changes more likely are not the worth the cost
for some cables.

You have no control over the damage the cross-overs
circuits are doing to the audio signals, so changing
cables will have little influence on how your system
will sound.


We suggest that you replace these circuits, if you can,
and use non-crossover circuits.

If you need some circuits we will be glad to send you
several designs.


Curtis J

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on November 24, 2012 at 14:20:37
jrlaudio
Industry Professional

Posts: 24
Location: New York
Joined: November 2, 2012
 It is indeed possible not hear any differences. The variables that create differences are many. The ability of your system to resolve such differences is a big one. To the other extreme issues like the source impedences can have affects.

Unfortunately, reported differences of one cable versus another are so affected by these variables as to render these reports irrelevant. Some claims as to reasons for these differences are dubious at best.

I know of one manufacturer who goes on about things like triboelectric charges and dielectric charge and it is clear he is either deceiving his readers or doesn't understand the basics of such things. Triboelectric discharges only become a factor when a cable is in motion and only substancially so. When you consider the impedences in consumer audio gear these affects are so low as to render these charges as inconsequential. "Tribo" discharge always manifests itself as loud crackles and pops, not as degradation of signals in terms of soundstage and imaging, and other low-signal detail aspects. The these discharges are only a factor in circuits where the source impedences are very high and inductive in nature, like from an electric guitar pickup or microphone. When the inherant source impedences are low, these dicharges only are a factor in very high signal-to-noise situations like in detectors used in particle physics research, telemetry or in nuclear engineering. In these cases S/N ratios are in the magnitude of 170dB or higher. In our world the noise floor sits on average at about 110-115dB, well above where these affects can be even detected, let alone perceived in any way. They are down in the noise, substancilally so. And again, the cable must be flexing AND moving for these triboelectric affects to occur in the first place.

He also makes claims about dielectric charge in insulators in cables as both having a very high level (100mv) and taking days or weeks to discharge or "relax" as he puts it. This is not true. In fact, he mentions if you take a cable out of a box and measure the charge on the cable he claims he has seen 100mv on his multi-meter. Of course, anyone who does this work knows that measuring a dielectric charge with modern digital voltmenter is deceptive. The impedence of the imput of these devices is very high the resulting voltage measured is also very high as a result.

When the cable is in place in an audio system the loads are so low as to render these charges down in the low milli-volts range (or lower), and they discharge and are gone in micro-seconds. The time contants of discharge are known and very short in duration (usually in micro-seconds) at the capcitances and impedences involved here. These time constants are also not affected by "biasing" or other schemes being used. They remain constant. He is using these assumptions (or deceptions) to explain cable break-in. The actual physics do not support these dubious claims.

So take into consideration the many numerous variables involved here and understand the only thing that matters is what works in your situation. If you do not hear a difference you may not be in the situation that either allows one, or in other words the variables are not stacked up for you to have a difference. That may be good for you. Cables, and the quest for the ultimate cable tweek can be costly. Consider yourself fortunate you're not in that trap.

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on November 24, 2012 at 14:46:04
geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 6243
Location: northern Virginia
Joined: August 23, 2000
 "He is using these assumptions (or deceptions) to explain cable break-in. The actual physics do not support these dubious claims."

Just curious, what do you think the actual physics is for cable break-in? Assuming you think that cable break-in is real, of course. Now, if you think that cable break-in is not real, what is the physics that is disobeyed when folks report improvements for cable break-in?

 

RE: Call me crazy but the difference in cables Isn't that much, posted on November 24, 2012 at 15:11:57
jrlaudio
Industry Professional

Posts: 24
Location: New York
Joined: November 2, 2012
 I do know the sound changes over time with cables. But the reasons purported by this manufacturer are not the most likely candidates.

What I have observed (and measured when I did this research many years ago at MIT), was the gradual change is a result of the interface(s) between wire and device. The connection and the points where this occurs. The wire to the connector, & the connector to connector contact point. Valence bonding, oxidation, compression factors (at a molecular level) and numerous other variables have far more affect on electrical charateristics like R, I & L, and these do vary in values over time.

 

RE: Call me crazy but... you not it your cros-over circuits., posted on November 24, 2012 at 15:28:27
jrlaudio
Industry Professional

Posts: 24
Location: New York
Joined: November 2, 2012
 Well there you go ...

It amazes how people find the exact & precise cause for some issue (which have a multitude of variables) when they are selling something. Ironic how the "solution" is always what they happen to offer for sale, other variables notwithstanding.

Nuff said.

 

Page: [ 1 ] [ 2 ]

Page processed in 0.076 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2013, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ] [ Take5 ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]