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Pro's In The Know - Power Cords

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Posted on October 1, 2009 at 19:39:22
Jon Risch
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 Objectionists sometimes like to try and cite professional's in audio as rejecting audio tweaks, and being derisive of audio cable issues.

In the past, there have been quite a few dedicated professional's that have discovered the benefits of high performance audio cables, and often, they completely re-wire their studio's, or whatever their environment was. A musician may have discovered high performance cables, and now uses only the finest for his guitar, etc.

But the awareness of high performance audio cables is slowly but surely percolating into the mainstream of pro audio. Now you see touring bands, or touring sound companies, using high performance speaker cables and exotic balanced XLR cables for their sound systems, and paying attention to a lot more tweaky audio things than ever before.

Finally, in the mainstream of Pro audio, there has been attention given to power cords, and not just for recording studio use.

The latest issue of Pro Audio Review magazine recenty reviewed a power cord, and the editor offfered this editorial comment at:

http://www.proaudioreview.com/article/24290

(note: in order to view this article, you may have to plug the URL into Google, or wade past a magazine subscription page, it may not link directly to the page. )

Here is the URL for the power cord review:
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/newbay/par_200909/#/40
(same comment as above)
The magazine's electronic viewable pages Start here:
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/newbay/par_200909/#/0

Of course, according to the objectionist's, these professionals MUST be deluded and easily fooled, etc. It doesn't matter that they literally make their living with their ears, and must know what good sound is, when they hear it. Or the customer goes elsewhere.

Oh well, we know who the real deluded ones are.

Jon Risch
....far too many to deny, posted on October 9, 2009 at 08:34:32
Grant
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Posts: 203
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 I thought the tired old debate over whether PC's could make a difference was over years ago.
Remember the raging threads in 2000 and '01. Those were hilarious.

It would be correct to say that in the past there were many recording professionals that had a healthy skepticism about after-market power cords value in top recording, mastering and playback systems. They had not had exposure to them largely and intuitively they did not understand the mechanisms for why they could make a difference. That has all changed with experience and their understanding of the science behind power cords function.

I'll stick to what I know from first hand experience or fact, so there is no confusion. Also, all the recording professionals mentioned are at the top of their profession, have amassed cost-no-object recording and listening systems and base their careers on getting absolute fidelity out of their recordings/mastering projects.... They cannot be bought or even influenced by anything but what they hear with regards to what goes into their "all business" systems.

Here's a few I can recall offhand with one arm behind my back. I can toss together twice this list with a little checking.

Bob Ludwig (one of the worlds top recording engineers) Uses after-market power cords, conditioners and cabling throughout his recording studio and swears by them (not at them)

Rick Rubin (multi-grammy winning producer) Uses after-market power cords throughout his home studio and has had them over-nighted overseas for recording projects). He recommends them tirelessly to studios he works with and is very outspoken about their value.

James Guthrie (Grammy winner,Floyd's DSOTM mastering engineer) Uses and enthusiastically recommends after market PC's to colleagues, including Sony Japan, who after testing them in their systems purchased dozens of them at retail from a Japanese distributor. What no spiff? Nope, dozens of $1k and $2k power cords at retail--after testing.

Doug Sax (see James Guthrie) They are close, so even hardened skeptic DS was won over after hearing what they brought to the system used for SACD remaster of DOSTM

SkyWalker Sound (15 Grammys for best sound) Purchased multiple after market PC's for their studios, recommends them to others.

Steve Hoffman (Grammy winner, sound engineer) uses a variety of aftermarket power cords and even blogs and reviews about his experiences.

Stephen Epstein (Multi-Grammy winning engineer for Isaac Stern, Yo Yo Ma, Perlman etc) Uses after market PC's and refers to them as essential to his checking of masters.

Peter McGrath (Recording engineer) uses after market PC's for all his recording work at home and brings them with.

And lets not forget countless electronics and speaker manufacturers, also at the top of their game who use and endorse after market power cords with their electronics and use them in their show systems (the ones their dealers and distributors listen to!). The list includes almost every manufacturer, so I'll skip listing them.

But all that doesn't matter...This could be an endless list. Measurements wont matter either, they will be refuted as inconsequential, fake or unrelated to sound. No matter what proofs anyone comes up with there will _always_ be the camp that will refute anything and everything based on their unshakeable beliefs--despite not having made their own simple direct listening tests with a representative sample of after-market power cords.

Here's a good test for the skeptics. Using a reasonable system with CD player, pre-amp, amp and speakers, borrow two power cords from a dealer. Make sure they are from well established companies, lets say one from Nordost and one from Cardas. Place one on the CD player replacing the stock cord, leave it there for 1-2 days and listen to favorite music. Then switch and repeat. Report your experiences. Replacing all stock cords in any system at one time with any mid-grade aftermarket power cords will make such an obvious difference you'd have to be deaf not to hear it.

And here is why no chat-forum argument hobbyist will ever do that. It would ruin all the fun they have expounding on Snake oil and arguing in circles on internet forums. It's not about the music, listening or discovery sharing for them--its the hobby of circular argument over issues with which they have no experience--for if they had it, there would be no argument.

Bottom line is, the only debating left is with those who have their head buried so far in the sand they will _never_ come up long enough to see that the debate is over, the reason power cords can make a difference has been explained and they are a legitimate tool in improving all manner of recording, film and sound system's resolution and performance.
RE: ....far too many to deny, posted on October 13, 2009 at 20:37:08
Todd Krieger
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 "Here's a good test for the skeptics. Using a reasonable system with CD player, pre-amp, amp and speakers, borrow two power cords from a dealer. Make sure they are from well established companies, lets say one from Nordost and one from Cardas. Place one on the CD player replacing the stock cord, leave it there for 1-2 days and listen to favorite music. Then switch and repeat. Report your experiences. Replacing all stock cords in any system at one time with any mid-grade aftermarket power cords will make such an obvious difference you'd have to be deaf not to hear it."

My favorite power cord test is burning two CDs of the same music on the same computer, identical CD-R discs (from the same batch), using the same software and settings, but with different power cords to the computer. The difference was large enough to pass an ABX test.


Great post!... sometimes the obvious is so hard to see..., posted on October 10, 2009 at 12:49:27
musetap
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 or, for the...unenlightened, hard to hear!

There's nothing inherently wrong with initially being skeptical but there does seem something seriously wrong with people that choose to remain that way.

“ Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination. ” -Michael McClure
RE:"There's nothing wrong with initially being skeptical but something seriously wrong with staying that way.", posted on October 12, 2009 at 12:08:17
geoffkait
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 Gosh, did you really say that?! How ironic. LOL

Yep!, posted on October 9, 2009 at 12:15:56
Don Till
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 I agree I thought we put this issue to rest along time ago.

But then again there's that mythical "everything sounds the same objectivist" that the voodoo mystics seem compelled to continually call up as if that somehow supports their contention that topics far too advanced (or unknown) for normal component designers or EEs are the cause of what we are hearing.

Geez these issues are real and obvious from the POV of someone who has ears that at least partially work as well as from a lab tech barely able to use test equipment's POV.

Normally I avoid this kind of mindless banter but when I read that audiophiles seem to be confusing susceptability to external noise with high resolution I have to speak up. IMO a component could be designed to be immune to external noise supplied by a power cord but since PC differences would not be heard audiophiles would consider the component low resolution.

Skywalker..., posted on October 9, 2009 at 10:24:43
mkuller
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 ...I was told they had Bruce Brisson rewire their whole studio with MIT cables about 10 years ago.

RE: Skywalker..., posted on October 9, 2009 at 10:52:18
Grant
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Yes that is true. They still use the MIT in the Theater room and as signal wire in parts of the sound studios. They use Chord amplification and last I was there some of the larger B&W speakers around the Neve 88 panel.
Well, I think your not going far enough, posted on October 8, 2009 at 06:38:04
tesla
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 John, I believe in your post, you just don't go far enough.

I find it incredulous that almost every "tweak" that mention the improvements that arise from this don't go all the way. Common sense, (to me) says if your going to do tweaks of this sort, go all the way, but consider that the whole power grid was NOT installed to be kind to audiophile gear. So, install your fancy auidiophile cord, and gloat over the results. But, lets go further! (yes, in my mind, the following is a bit ludicrous, but I am trying to illustate a point).

How about a dedicated conduit-sheilded twisted pair line, (hopefully silver) from the breakerbox to the audio gear. Next, hospital or audiophile grade outlets, with the wiring SCREW-TIGHTENED (no push-in terminals here) Or, even better, how about direct, audiophile grade soldered connections? BTW, NO wirenuts anywhere! They can corrode or loosen, causing problems.

Actually, the VERY best is to completely remove oneself from the powergrid. That means the your neighbors connected to the same common transformer serving your part of the neighborhood won't be reflecting electrical noise back to the transformer, and then on to you.

This means you buy yourself a generator set, hopefully dedicated to your audio system. This will insure a source of clean power. Ok, again, this is a bit extreme, but I just don't see why not go all the way, if your going to go to the trouble of changing your power cord.

Regards,

Gene


"Son, let this be a lesson to you: never do tequila shooters within a country mile of a marriage chapel."
- Al Bundy
$178 well spent IMO, posted on October 8, 2009 at 09:04:53
Sordidman
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 I really enjoy listening to music. I really enjoy my stereo system, I think that it sounds fab. I think that the quality of my stereo enhances my listening experience. I "get into" the music more than I would otherwise. I have fun. My downstairs neighbor, who also is kind-of an audiophile says that my system sounds so good, that it's ruined Peter Gabriel for him; he only wants to listen to PG on my system. You might find my stereo completely not-worth the money. But although you can look up my system, and easily determine the retail pricing of all the components, - you should not make an assumption on either how much it cost me, or how it sounds. You won't know the latter until you sit down and ACTUALLY LISTEN FOR YOURSELF!!

I don't have an expensive AC cord with my amp. I use the one that came with it. Why? Because the AC cord that came with it has neutrix connector and it is proprietary. Besides, it would make a very good, $500 at least, aftermarket AC cord: or so they say.

I also spent $178 to have a dedicated 20AMP circuit run from the breaker box that only has the amp plugged into a, yes aftermarket, PS Audio wall outlet. Did it make a difference? Yes. Can I prove it, - yes! Can I prove it to your satisfaction? I do not know. So far, to everyone who has heard the "before" and "after" has agreed that they can both hear a difference, and it also "sounds better."

Do I have measurements that reflect this difference? No. Do I have to? Isn't this my house, my room, my stereo, and my experience? I really enjoy listening to music, and I really enjoy wine, - should I have spent that $178 on wine? Or heaven forbid, - my piece of shit old Volvo? (I ride my track bicycle to work).

I would like to think that there is a place for subjective experiences, and also objective data. What's wrong with a balance? Why are we always seeking to denigrate experience? Isn't part of good science observational? Can we have good science, and less rigorous science? Why engage in a scientific study if we don't care about the outcome? Can we achieve certainty?

If we start out with the assumption that this "industry" of luxury is bad, and there are evil people seeking to bamboozle us out of our money with "snake oil," - and the only way to stop it is by denigrating experience, and attempting to prove what cannot be proven with what can best be described as poor measuring tools, incomplete science, and too many variables: we are on the wrong path as I see it. For what we seek is "good sound."
And those two words are inherently subjective.

Surrendered to self preservation,
From others who care for themselves.
A blindness that touches perfection,
But hurts just like anything else.
With that—PHP has now reached the end of its useful life…, posted on October 8, 2009 at 22:05:48
Wellfed
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Thanks Wellfed........ Cheers -t, posted on October 9, 2009 at 11:46:41
Sordidman
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 .

Surrendered to self preservation,
From others who care for themselves.
A blindness that touches perfection,
But hurts just like anything else.
De nada…, posted on October 9, 2009 at 12:06:54
Wellfed
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 I nominated your excellent post for inclusion in the Asylum FAQ area.

I think this issue has already been resolved., posted on October 5, 2009 at 13:02:10
Don Till
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 If I recall it has already been determined that effect of an enhanced power cord is proportional to a components susceptability to whatever it is that the power cord protects it from.

There's nothing mysterious or magical here. And certainly components that benefit most from the protections afforded by an enhanced power cord should not be considered of higher resolution simply because of this fact - they should simply be considered more susceptable to these extraneous effects and more in need of the protections afforded by the cord.
In whose mind?, posted on October 6, 2009 at 21:47:49
Jon Risch
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 I never cease to be amazed that somehow, certain folks seem to think that a SOTA power supply should be provided with every audio component, no matter what the price point.

Do you really believe that the $39 DVD player at Walmart has a SOTA PS in it? That it can not possibly benefit from some help with respect to the AC mains power and it's problems and lack of perfection?

Or what about the $100 receiver, or the other budget and mid-fi consumer electronics out there? Is there room in the design budget for a SOTA PS?
Not when a decent toroidal transformer costs the manufacturer as much or more than the whole retail price of the component in the first place!

Of course, we would have to agree on the definition of a SOTA PS for any given component, but if you are trying to define it as a PS that doesn't need any help from a high-performance power cord, or from an AC line filter/conditioner, then guess what: you are now talking about beyond the SOTA, because to my knowledge, there is no PS on this earth that can completely deal with the raw AC mains all by itself and render moot aftermarket power cords and AC line conditioners.

Of course, I AM talking about a level of audio system performance above and beyond the Walmart DVD player and the $100 receiver, something that not only measures good, BUT SOUNDS GOOD.

It is not trivial to design a REALLY good PS, witness most of the really good sounding amps have as much invested in terms of parts and design effort in the PS, as they do in the amp circuitry itself.

As far as high performance audio components being more susceptible to AC power line issues, if the design philosophy is to try to provide unfettered current delivery, and an totally unvarying voltage rail, both things proven to be advantageous when making an assault on the very best sound, then by definition, the PS is now letting things wide in that might have been choked off in a less ambitious PS. Trying to incorporate the conflicting requirements of insensitivity to AC line hash, RFI, and other noise pollutants, and unrestricted current delivery etc. is not a simple thing, and costs even more in total than an approach that targets one or the other.

It would help to have actually designed audio component PS's, and to have made an assault on the SOTA, on very high performance. Without this experience, without this kind of goal, it is all but impossible to relate to, and to understand what is required, what heroic efforts it takes to go there.


Jon Risch
Who's calling for SOTA power supply?, posted on October 8, 2009 at 08:10:35
Don Till
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 Well I might give your comments greater credibility if an amps performance couldn't be significantly improved by the addition of a reasonably price power cord. You seem to be suggesting the solution implemented in the wire would require a SOTA power supply design to do the same thing. I find that to be quite a stretch to say the least.

In spite of those facts, ie. that amplifiers sound much better with enhanced power cords, I do note the significance of an amplifiers power stage relative to that of a digital device. But at the same time I've got to restate that many owners do experience enhance amplifier performance with just the power cord upgrade.

And on to low voltage devices. Though I think (but I might be wrong) your comments carry more credibility with respect to higher supply voltages, I find them far less credible when it comes to digital or low power devices. And I say this based on years of experience using test equipment, digital devices including communications equipment in noisy environments.

Fact of the matter is low power componentry seems to benefit from the same reasonably priced power cords as do the amplifier.

And we're not talking SOTA performance here - we talking about clear and obvious improvements being heard in relatively affordable audio equipment by the addition of reasonably priced power cords.
RE: In whose mind?, posted on October 7, 2009 at 12:08:15
briggs
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 I would not presume to try to tell anyone what he hears but in the vacuum tube days I had the privilege of knowing with some pretty good audio engineers, such as Gordon Gow and Sidney Corderman. I owned some of their McIntosh tube gear and had no reason to believe that their power supplies were compromised to the extent that they would audibly benefit from outboard "help", but then I never tried it, either.

My recollection is that were not believers in after market power cords for their equipment.

In their homes decades ago..., posted on October 7, 2009 at 15:55:36
E-Stat
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 did they have dozens of digital devices with switching power supplies that happily radiate all sorts of electronic grunge back into the AC? Like cordless phones, cable boxes, DVRs, CD/DVD players, routers. wireless access points, digital microwave ovens, digitally controlled dishwashers, digitally controlled washing machines, digitally controlled dryers, burglar alarms, computers, etc.. etc.?

The villain lives with us today!

rw

RE: In their homes decades ago..., posted on October 9, 2009 at 08:55:13
briggs
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 Your point is well taken. I guess it's something I don't often consider. I live in the deep suburbs and am the only customer on my power line transformer. A minimalist, I seem to reasonably contain the effects of my own home made grunge with a dedicated circuit -- a short (4 foot) run to the breaker box.

My daughter lives in a Manhattan apartment. The difference is noticeable, even talking with her on the phone.

Sure but such conditions existed in test and communications environments decades ago, posted on October 8, 2009 at 07:49:18
Don Till
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 And electronic components manufactured to perform in those environments never suffered the way our audio equipment suffers.

But this is either here nor there as from every indication one can buy an appropriate power cord, or a power conditioner or even connect caps between the wires on a power cord and cure whatever it is that is ailing the audio system.

And until we do all those things, or all those solutions are implemented at the component level it's silly to suggest that additional unknown forces are degrading our equipments performance.

Every itoa of evidence and first hand experience presented in this thread and every thread I've ever participated in on this topic indicates known factors are responsible for the degragation we hear with our gear.

I suspect the point of the original post was to attack the deniers or naysayers who would suggest power cords make can make no difference whatsoever. It's measureably as well as audibly obvious that such degragation can and does occur. Those people who would deny these things aren't really worthy of the bandwidth they recieve. Unfortunately, that being said is not enough to support the contention that unknown or advanced physical concepts, voodoo or mysicism is at play. That's as silly a position as the one being forwarded by the supposed "everything sounds the same objectivist crowd".

RE: In whose mind?, posted on October 7, 2009 at 09:16:58
john curl
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 I agree, JR, there are many engineers out there who criticize us, but they lack experience with the reality we have faced, over the years.

Why is everything so dagnabbed complicated all the time?…, posted on October 7, 2009 at 09:49:48
Wellfed
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That's what I'd like to know
If "issue has already been resolved", there should be some "properly designed" components out there., posted on October 6, 2009 at 10:04:14
carcass93
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 Would you care to name at least one?

Because, you know, outside of mid-fi junk (purely assuming - I didn't bother to replace captive cords), I haven't encountered yet any single component that's NOT affected by replacing power cords. That includes several amps, CD players, DACs, preamps, power conditioners, and computers.

So, examples please.

I think there should be but whether or not there is is another question., posted on October 6, 2009 at 11:25:49
Don Till
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 The fact that modern equipment is usually supplied with the potential for upgrading the power cord suggest that the manufacturers and designers recognize that these issues, if they exist in a particular applicaion, can be addressed with an enhanced power cord.

I can guarantee you that treatements yeilding similar results achievable with enhanced power cords can be implemented at the board level.

Since you've not found a component that wasn't improved by an enhanced power cord should we consider your application somewhat unusual or is it essentially a normal real world application?

Now if you consider your application normal I would feel it would be appropriate if you felt inconvienced by the fact you need to buy a new cord to achieve promised performance. If you consider your application atypical then it's seems reasonable for you to be thankful that the manufacturer supplied you with the provision (if they did) to attach a new cord.

And BTW I'm not sure that the results you are achieving says more about the environments where you are doing your testing than components themselves. I would suggest it would be possible, in different environments, that you could have run the same experiments and came up with the opposite results.
So - no examples of such components? It's disappointing., posted on October 6, 2009 at 11:36:11
carcass93
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 I was kind of asking about YOUR OWN experience - but all I got is guesses and suggestions about MY components, electrical environment etc.

Let me repeat the question - in your experience, IN YOUR SYSTEM, with your ear/brain combination - what would be an example of a component that's "immune" to power cord replacements?

If you can't come up with anything (as it seems to be the case), what do you think is the reason for that?

In other words, why don't you read something posted by, for instance, John Risch or Al Sekela over the years, and then get back to us, slightly educated on the subject?

My experiences are similar to yours though I haven't tested all of my gear!, posted on October 6, 2009 at 12:10:40
Don Till
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 We are running 4 computers on a wireless network, have 6 ceiling fans, wireless headphones, cell phones in constant usage, a satellite system with 5 TVs and use compact flourescent lighting wherever possible.

Now this may be normal in todays home but it wasn't normal 15 or 20 years ago in a home setting - and it wasn't unusual in locations where say communications equipment or test equipment were frequently in use.

So even if my first hand experience were identical to yours or even exactly the opposite it makes no difference in this conversation.

"In other words, why don't you read something posted by, for instance, John Risch or Al Sekela over the years, and then get back to us, slightly educated on the subject? "

That sounds really good except I do read stuff posted by these guys. And nothing they write seems to support your position or Norms that some mysterious unexplained physics beyond the comprehension of EEs are effecting the sound of our stereos?

And further this isn't about the naysayers - it's about the believers wishing to distinquish themselves from the voodoo worshipers.
Well, in that case I must conclude that sometimes, reading doesn't help., posted on October 6, 2009 at 12:25:27
carcass93
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 It's beyond my comprehension, how one can read what's posted by John Risch and Al Sekela, seemingly do not disagree with that (however your response to Risch in this thread suggests otherwise), and still remain so deeply entrenched in ridiculous "properly designed / improperly designed" beliefs. Needless to say, never having encountered ANYTHING in real world of audio that supports these beliefs.

I must tell you - you're coming closer than anybody else to supplanting one recently departed (though seemingly reincarnated under different moniker) member here as resident "voice of reason".

I hope you're sharp enough to know sarcasm when you see it...

it's an imperfect world, posted on October 6, 2009 at 14:53:24
Tony Lauck
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 My take on this exchange is that it is more a debate about semantics rather than about physics or audio. What's at issue is not something that can be determined by physical measurements or subjective listening. What's at issue is the meaning of words and phrases such as "should" and "properly designed".

I've run into the same issue before. I happen to believe that a "properly designed" DAC "should" be immune to timing jitter and amplitude variations on an incoming signal, i.e. that bits "should" just be bits. However, I would be the first to admit that, a few marketing claims to the contrary, with real-world DACs bits are definitely not just bits. All of which implies that perhaps no one knows how to "properly" design this gear. (Some designers are trying, though.)

Not much here really, we all know it's an imperfect world.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

I believe JR's reply above deals with it all sufficiently. N/T, posted on October 7, 2009 at 08:21:09
carcass93
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 N/T

"perhaps no one knows how to "properly" design this gear.", posted on October 6, 2009 at 17:07:04
kerr
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 I've thought this myself.

Or perhaps proper design is in the eye of the beholder?

Nahhhhh! That would be subjective! ;)

Yeah, by you!, posted on October 6, 2009 at 09:00:11
bjh
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 Your formulation, if they do something the components must necessailly be flawed (which you admit applies to at least one of your own components), might relieve your worried little mind but since you have produced absolutely nothing to back it all you're really doing is providing a commical display of pathetic hubris.

... but anyway, thanks for that!

Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
I thought the prevailing theory was that..., posted on October 5, 2009 at 14:58:28
Ugly
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 under spec'd power cords cause problems the component couldn't overcome rather than the power cords are doing some protecting. By my definition, if the "power cords" that help out are doing some actual conditioning which allows for circuit protecting then they have left the realm of what I would define as solely being a power cord and entered the realm of what I would consider to be a power cord plus a filter/shield/resonator. Maybe it's my misunderstanding though.

I often feel that it is the overly broad usage, and in my opinion often misusage, of terms such as "power cord" which is resposnible for much of the misunderstanding and voodoo often associated with audio reproduction. Of course, no central database of official definitions for these terms means there can often be disagreement even among the experts in the field. This doesn't help the situation any.

I suppose you could look at it that way!, posted on October 5, 2009 at 17:00:39
Don Till
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 But one would think the power cord supplied with a component would be sufficient. And I suppose these days it kind of depends on the environment where the components is being used. Personally I see the power cord market as indictive of audio designers failing to keep up with what their products are coming up against in the real world.

With audiophiles apparently its good enough to tell them the component is so resolving that if you've got a good system you can reap the benefit of a new power cord. So we go buy the new cord and feel real happy that our system was so good it needed one! To me that's weird.

RE: I suppose you could look at it that way!, posted on October 5, 2009 at 19:53:40
Ugly
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 The whole idea of manufacturers cheaping out on cords and underdesigning power supplies is quite disappointing there is no doubt. On the other hand if the manufacturer is able to put more of the allocated designed product cost mnoney into making the rest of the design better since they are able to cheap out on components the customer can fix later then maybe it is good they spend the money in other areas.

I'm a bit torn on the whole thing. Personally I'd rather just get stuff that works right out of the box but unfortunately paying for what I want in a working configuration isn't always easy either. It's difficult for manufacturers to find the happy medium since each customers requirements and expectations are different and can vary such a large amount.

For a good example of this just look at the inmate systems. On the one extreme you'll have big bruiser SS systems like mine, and on the other you get flea power tube systems. Who's is better? Well, mine is better for me and the other guys is better for him. Both of us can be happy and have nearly diametrically opposed approaches to getting there. What's a manufacturer to do? You can't please everyone always.

But really now we should know the cost savings doesn't go into R&D or making..., posted on October 6, 2009 at 12:48:18
Don Till
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 a product better. The cost savings is revenue or profit. The decision would be whether or not they could implement the solution and still be competive at the higher price point. Safer just to put the adaptor on the component and make the user buy it if he requires the promised performance or allow the user to believe the component is capable of more resolution given a better PC.

No one can please everyone and that's what's great about our hobby. It is highly subjective and there's a world of possibility for a guy with a sonic vision leaning towards designing some gear. If everything really was about optimizing some set of measurements the economies of scale would have ruled this industry along time ago.

I'm looking forward to the future as this hobby becomes even more of a cottage type industry. I can't wait for the demise of the audiofool magazines and the big boys getting fully entrenched in video. Those will be the golden days of stereo, we're getting there but it's still ahead of us.
Maybe, maybe not. The problem I have when I've purchased products where..., posted on October 6, 2009 at 14:35:46
Ugly
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 "The cost savings is revenue or profit."

and the more expensive components cost less for the manufacturer to add than the problem caused by omitting them from the design costs more for customer to fix externally than it would have cost them if the manufacturer would have just included the component and bumped up the selling price of the product accordingly. But I have the mindset that I better not have to be changing stuff like power cords to get significantly better performance from gear I've purchased.

My more logical side is right with the sentiment you seem to be forwarding. Then again having been involved with designing consumer product and being familiar with the types of feature requests marketting makes while claiming they will sell more than the same R&D money spent on finding better product performance, I see another side to the situation. This experience with the other side leaves me a bit confused but hopefully diplomatic about the different approaches. After all, as the designer, it is the Marketting dept who is my customer. If they have done their homework then they know more about what sells than I do.

One can never forget the whole psychological aspect of it all which I am only recently starting to become more comfortable with. If placebos are statistically shown to help cancer patients survive then for god sake give the cancer patients the placebos. There is no doubt in my mind that there may be some fancy schmancy high dollar power cord, which measurable performance differences can't be shown, that allows someone to enjoy their setup more. It is my belief that if they enjoy their set up more it may sound better to them. Great!

Even if the manufacture is exactly technically correct with their choices of components as per performance of the products audio enthusiasts can often be wierd like Harley owners. Many are great with sleepers which hide the fact that the stock looking machine runs like a raped ape. Others could care less about the performance as long as what they're riding down the road looks looks like a grand prix champion or even better yet like a flashy gaudy jewel built for royalty.

Ten bucks added to the cost of a power cord to tweak performance makes little sense for a device that is being sold into a market wher 90% consumers have been shown to replace the power cords immediately before even turning the device on. Conversly adding ten bucks to the cost of power cord for better performance makes alot of sense when the device is being sold into a market whos consumers have been shown to replace cords only ten percent of the time.

As I said earlier, I'm torn on the whole problem.

Power cords are transducers, antennas, filters, resonators, as well as cords., posted on October 5, 2009 at 15:21:36
Al Sekela
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 Various designs trade off the contributions of each behavior mode, but it would take a supernatural cord to eliminate the consequences of the laws of physics.

These discussions are usually unproductive because so many users confuse good intentions with results. The name, "power cord," encapsulates the intention: to deliver power current. The confusion arises when users assume this is the end of the story.

Ah yes, transducers..., posted on October 5, 2009 at 16:29:54
Ugly
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 forgot that.

You may choose to define the term "power cord" as a device delivering power while exhibiting the unavoidable second order effects per the physics of its application. I may choose to define a power cord by it's textbook functionality with the understanding that it will exhibit nonideal characteristics in real world applications.

Obviously this definition makes a lot less difference in a conversation between two people who agree about what the higher order affects are and how they manifest themselves. I think the real problem is among those who may not have an understanding of some or any of the second order effects either misunderstanding something that is said or making conversation in a way which seems incorrect to someone with a better grasp of the more complete universal model. But no one truly understands the complete universal model afaik. So here we are.

Around here we get sloppy conversations which don't clearly express the true feelings and understandings of the authors or may not jibe with reality at all. I'm certainly not trying to claim innocence of this either. I get schooled around here regularly by the likes of people like you, Al, and even many who I would never expect to get schooled by. It makes having this forum act as an archive that is a useful database for all understanding levels nearly impossible to achieve.

I guess I'm just complaining now that the world is imperfect. I don't see that there is much which can be done to change that. Certainly censorship is not a good answer IMO. What to do?

You said it yourself:, posted on October 6, 2009 at 15:56:37
Al Sekela
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 "But no one truly understands the complete universal model afaik."

This is one reason why manufacturers of fancy components ship them with stock power cords. In my limited experience with power cord construction, there is no one design that works best in all situations. Perhaps we haven't worked on the problem long enough, but I suspect we would need some major advances in power supply design before power cord interactions become irrelevant.

To the list of physical interactions, add the obstacle of obtaining safety agency listing for any particular design, and you can see why even the largest corporations would not want to take on the task of shipping an optimum power cord.

Cord safety regulatory compliance can be a real bear, can't it?, posted on October 7, 2009 at 13:23:33
Ugly
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 I think it all really depends on ones definition of what constitutes a power supply and the limits set for cost. I can imagine gear which wuld be affected minimally by power cord quality. For example the technology exists today to have grid tied multi KW AC power regenration with deep cycle battery backup by something like windmills and solar panels, etc. recharging the batteries. More robust versions of this supply could power through indefinite grid fluctuation, noise or blackouts without a problem. Good luck paying for the amp incorporating this supply though...then there is the whole problem of installing the beast once you've afforded it.

I've often considered something like this but the cost of being independent here in Seattle is very prohibitive for almost all the "free" energy: wind, solar and yes even hydroelectric. There is not much wind, it's always cloudy and laws to save the salmon runs make it hard to just build a dam. I think the best bets around here would be a nuclear reactor or thermal engines but I can just imagine what the code enforcement lady would have to say about that. :-O Maybe I could slip some thermal engines into the backyard without her noticing but a cooling tower is likely right ut of the question. heheh

What you really should've said is "I already stated (many times) before my POV on the subject"., posted on October 5, 2009 at 13:15:38
carcass93
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 That is far cry from "issue has already been resolved", or even from remotely getting near understanding of the problem.

As if power cords "work" because they magically solve something unknown or mysterious, posted on October 5, 2009 at 14:55:15
Don Till
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 Regardless of whatever any manufacturer, distributor, dealer or other audiophile may claim any particular power cord does isn't important to me nor does it further my understanding about anything either. What's important is how the sound of my system is effected by using any particular power cord.

"That is far cry from "issue has already been resolved", or even from remotely getting near understanding of the problem."

We can wank our meat until we bleed but no matter how hard we wank a beautiful woman is never going to appear. Or said differently blowing hot air and psuedo-intellectual posturing don't lead to greater understanding - it just makes us look stupid.

Like I said - the issues have already been resolved. Unless or until all audio equipment manufacturers deal with these kinds of noise issues power cords will continue to be an effective solution to the problem to some problems faced by some systems in some environments.

Just because you don't get it doesn't mean that all of us are just as lost.
You just demonstrate your ignorance, and silly habit of contradicting anything and anyone., posted on October 5, 2009 at 15:22:46
carcass93
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 Keep wanking your meat - but, strictly between us, it's not necessary to do it in public, as you seemingly prefer to.

You nailed him. He is just another representative of the "we know everything" school of EE and not physics. nt, posted on October 5, 2009 at 15:29:09
Norm
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 a

Electrical engineering is applied physics and...., posted on October 5, 2009 at 16:45:07
Don Till
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 quit trying to tell us that engineers don't understand the physics behind this stuff. It's just BS but it's still about design not some mystical physics concept - audio equipment designers simply don't take the same things into consideration as do designers of other kinds of equipment, test and communications for example.

It's almost sad how you've got to come around here and fool the numbskulls to get yourself an iota of respect. But believe me you're not fooling all of us. Been working as a librarian or Walmart greeter lately?
"get yourself an iota of respect" - is that why YOU are here? To earn respect?, posted on October 6, 2009 at 08:49:06
carcass93
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 Because, you know, most people are here to exchange opinions and information about audio. So, some of them get understandably annoyed, when some know-nothing aggressively tries to tell them that "the problem is solved", supplying as evidence only his tired beliefs.

And BTW, regarding earning respect - if that's indeed what you're trying to do here, I can tell you right now: you're not doing too good.

That doesn't excuse ignoring the obvious in order to suggest the unknown!, posted on October 6, 2009 at 09:48:28
Don Till
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 "Because, you know, most people are here to exchange opinions and information about audio. So, some of them get understandably annoyed, when some know-nothing aggressively tries to tell them that "the problem is solved", supplying as evidence only his tired beliefs."

What's frustrating is this attempt to suggest advanced physical concepts or unknowns are at play without accepting the influence of the known and obvious.

In order to address an issue or an unknown it needs to be isolated. In order to isolate this unkonwn every known factor is removed until nothing remains except the unknown itself.

Working this way unknowns are almost always, essentially always, determined to be bugs or misconceptions on the part those claiming the unknown exists.

Failure to account for all known influences, in effect denying their effects, and then to suggest that the influence of some advanced unknown physical construct is having an effect is nothing more than a leap of faith or a psuedo-science.
Okay, some EEs didn't learn that their "laws" don't explain everything., posted on October 6, 2009 at 07:58:53
Norm
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 I have no interest in entering into your ad hominem attacks. Your lack of understanding is known.

That's true...., posted on October 6, 2009 at 11:06:10
Don Till
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 and it's my position that audio equipment designers, possibly EEs, don't account for many external influences in their designs.

But this hardly supports the contention that you are supporting here that there are unknowns or advanced physical concepts beyond the grasp of EEs at work here.

Surely the EEs I work with in the communications industry as well as those in the test equipment industry have a firm grasp on these issues that plaque some of the audio industry.

This is a rather simple and obvious position Norm. I understand audiophiles embracing the unknown or mystical and I perfectly understand the Industry efforts to contribute to such imagination. But I gotta be honest with you as a professional, involved in the technical aspects not sales and marketing, I'ld be embarrassed to be discovered participating in something that really doesn't amount to much more than a circle jerk.

We are not too far apart., posted on October 7, 2009 at 08:22:33
Norm
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 I just think your inference that only EMI or RFI of powercords make any difference. We should not just assume that. I would be more convinced were I to hear two identical pcs except for shielding, but even that would not rule out two shielded pcs not sounding alike, which I have heard with the Synergistic Research line of pcs.

As an audiophile while in undergraduate school, I still remember conversations with several of my physics professors about various laws used in EE. Incidentally I never learned that any were audiophiles, nor were any of the EE profs.

Right but there is a significant difference, posted on October 7, 2009 at 10:24:55
Don Till
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 We aren't talking signal path - we are talking power supply. It's just not comprehensible to me why any self respecting equipment designer would allow such issues to have detrimental effects on his components performance.

But on the topic of discussion you seem to be suggesting other issues besides noise entering the system through the PC are at play. Well I could agree with this especially understanding that reference voltages can significantly effect signal path performance in a digital system - which could possibly explain your experiences that different cords by the same manufacturer sound different. This is significant only if we assume both cables are similar in their noise reduction ability - which IMO may or may not be a reasonable assumption. Is it possible some listeners may prefer a degree of external noise? Hey maybe it is possible or maybe the lower priced cable is only giving listeners a taste of the noise reduction of the higher priced model. Who knows? I suppose it's even possible that the higher priced cable has higher levels of noise and it's owners claim it offers a more organic sound reproduction.

I'm used to dealing with this kind of stuff on an everyday basis. Until it is demonstrate that noise entering the circuitry through the power cord is not corrupting the supply voltages and/or the signal path and that the power supply is actually delivering desired voltages there should be no suggestion that other factors are at play. It's simply irresponsible.

That all being said from my professional perspective. From my audiophile hobbyist perspective I don't really care beyond the embarrassment such speculation causes me amongst non-audiophile technical professionals and the public at large. Of course cables and interconnects and wires all effect the sound of our systems - there's nothing magical, unknown or even unmeasureable about why this happens. Even beyond that see my post to the first guy to respond to this comment to which I am responding.
Yes, there is a significant differences, posted on October 7, 2009 at 12:15:09
Norm
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 You say, "Until it is demonstrate that noise entering the circuitry through the power cord is not corrupting the supply voltages and/or the signal path and that the power supply is actually delivering desired voltages there should be no suggestion that other factors are at play. It's simply irresponsible." I would say that sonic differences between power cords using on the same power supply demonstrate that there are differences among power cords. If designers want to explore these differences and center on the causes, more power to them. It is simply arrogant to ignore other factors.

RE: Yes, there is a significant differences, posted on October 12, 2009 at 03:53:59
morricab
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 Thus the difference between scientists and engineers...

Hey! Hold up thar!, posted on October 12, 2009 at 10:34:03
rick_m
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 "Thus the difference between scientists and engineers."

Piffle! A cheap shot well below your normal standards.

A good engineer is a good scientist, at least as far as methodology is concerned. And like them they make tons of assumptions or they wouldn't make any progress. The good ones of both ilks have a pretty clear idea of the risks involved and don't bat an eye if an assumption is proven wrong as that's usually a very valuable data point. All either can hope for is that any faulty assumptions are washed out prior to publishing or production.

I've had a hard time making sense of this whole thread, I think Tony is right, it's mostly semantics. If I understand Don's position it's that power cords aren't magic, the susceptibility of the device is a key factor and that bad susceptibility doesn't imply high performance. Seems good so far. Jon says that many products, especially cheap ones have crude power supplies. Seems plausible to me.

Maybe at issue is the phrase "a properly designed power supply". There's nothing to that one, a properly designed power supply is one that meets it's specifications. QED. That implies nothing about how well it will work in a given system or environment, that's controlled by what's in those specifications. The real rub is that a typical home audio "system" is systemically a sorry one lacking in adequate specifications and controls to insure that it will perform well as a system. It's no surprise that "everything makes a difference". It's just one of those historical things and it works well enough for most people most of the time. Audiophiles are, by definition, not 'most people' in that they appreciate good sound quality so much that they try to optimize their systems and they're enjoyment of them by various means from spending fortunes on them to taping cow-magnets to their outlets.

So there is no singular answer. One thing I would strongly advise is to totally discount all power cable advertising that includes ANY performance claims not supported by specifications and testing. That certainly reduces the field, doesn't it?

Rick

RE: Hey! Hold up thar!, posted on October 14, 2009 at 04:32:33
morricab
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 "A good engineer is a good scientist"

Not necessarily, although some are good at both...

Tony says it pretty nicely below that engineers work from specifications or pre-defined objectives (i.e. build a bridge, design a circuit to do X, Y or Z etc. etc.). They USE the discoveries of science to make technological things.

Scientists make observations, either about nature or about man-made products, and then use those observations to make rules for how things work. The way they go about making those rules is through testable hypotheses and the followup experiments and copious amounts of mathematics as the language of description of those rules.

WRT to audio this means that the engineer is the one DESIGNING the piece of equipment to do a particular function, make audio signals. He is designing this either to a set of specifications (low THD, high power, high load tolerance etc.) or to a set or rules for good sound that were found out either by himself (making him likely to ALSO be a scientist) or determined by someone else.

The scientist/audiophile takes these pieces of equipment and observes how they make music and finds that some sound good and others not so good. This is observation #1. Based on the findings of other scientists he perhaps knows that human hearing is sensitive to factors X, Y and Z. Using this knowledge and his knowledge about the way different electronics were designed the scientist can put forward a hypothesis as to WHY the equipment sounds different and perhaps WHY some sound better than others. Follow up experiments could be to test an even wider range of competing designs to reinforce or disprove the hypothesis. Making more detailed analytical measurements of the devices and determining which numbers correlate best with the listening results etc. These subsequent observations will allow a refinement of the hypothesis perhaps allowing mathematical rules to be developed that will allow prediction based on a particular design.

Now the engineer comes in again because his knowledge about how to execute a particular design based on the criteria determined by a scientist is likely to be superior to the scientist in making a workable design based on scientific predictions.

I never said an engineer cannot be a scientist or vice versa. But what an engineer does and what a scientist does are quite different in philosophy and it is not merely semantics. They use the same toolkit (i.e. chemistry, physics, mathematics) but that toolkit was developed by scientists and engineers use it to make things.

RE: Hey! Hold up thar!, posted on October 14, 2009 at 14:01:50
rick_m
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 "I never said an engineer cannot be a scientist or vice versa. But what an engineer does and what a scientist does are quite different..."

Not nearly so much as you seem to think. Notice that you had to stop and relabel the worker depending upon what aspect of his job you were thinking of. R&D, has all sorts of folks involved of various overlapping specializations working together on projects. As for toolkits, well I thought historically that 'pure' science came from applied science that came from alchemy. And those ol' alchemists weren't in it for understanding mother nature, they wanted gold gold gold. They would have been really pissed to have succeeded and watched the price of gold drop to the price of lead. But now we have economists to come to our rescue.

It takes all types...

Rick

RE: Hey! Hold up thar!, posted on October 15, 2009 at 07:10:38
morricab
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 " has all sorts of folks involved of various overlapping specializations working together on projects."

As I said, a person can wear both hats...I do so myself often. I designed and built complex analytical instruments, acting as an ENGINEER as we had particular design criteria we were hoping to achieve. Then I used that instrument to conduct SCIENCE in understanding natural phenomena that were previously unknown. However; most scientists don't build their own instruments and most engineers don't use their creations to do science...they usually sell them or move on to the next project.

"As for toolkits, well I thought historically that 'pure' science came from applied science that came from alchemy. And those ol' alchemists weren't in it for understanding mother nature, they wanted gold gold gold"

Who is talking about alchemists?? Again, they perhaps had elements of both because the idea of transmuting metal is a scientific concern (performing an experiment to do somethin unknown) but the tools they needed were probably designed and built by themselves (again an engineering task with a specific design goal...whether actually met or not is irrelevant). And besides one can do science in the hope of fame, glory and money. Its done that way predominantly and part of the attraction to smart individuals. That still doesn't change what the goal of science is and how it differs from engineering goals.
Yes, it would wrongly exclude many outstanding pcs. nt, posted on October 13, 2009 at 06:15:05
Norm
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Nah. I didn't say to dismiss the cords..., posted on October 13, 2009 at 06:55:33
rick_m
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 Just the advertising.

Rick

RE: Hey! Hold up thar!, posted on October 12, 2009 at 19:13:14
Tony Lauck
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 "There's nothing to that one, a properly designed power supply is one that meets it's specifications."


Specifications.

Here we have the difference between engineers and scientists. Engineers work with specifications, which are (hopefully) written by other engineers. Scientists have no specifications for Nature has chosen not to publish these.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: Hey! Hold up thar!, posted on October 14, 2009 at 22:31:27
Ugly
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 Man, engineers give you specs? The only specs I've ever gotten were from the marketting dept. and usually consist of something like: Can you do it better than last time? Oh yeah and it better have bluetoooth cause bluetooth is cool. The R&D involved in SOA product develpment often requires using the methods of science to characterize relationships never before witnessed by the team. After all isn't what's known by the design team what counts in product development? Not what some theoretical guru hidden away at some university knows but what we know, have access to and may use in the next design is what really counts. Sometimes scientific rags etc are enough but many times to drill down to the level of detail necessary for a given design requires re/running experimentation.

RE: Hey! Hold up thar!, posted on October 15, 2009 at 07:37:18
Tony Lauck
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 My descriptions were based on the way things should work. They do work that way in some industries and in some companies in all industries. Specifications are not the same as product requirements, although product requirements may include reference to specifications, e.g. specific industry specifications. When I said that engineers work with specifications, I meant literally that. They read them, they write them, they study them, they build devices that meet them, they measure equipment against them, etc... The specifications include project documents, internal company documents and industry standards. Engineers also provide specifications to marketing departments, which may or may not publish these, usually somewhat rewritten or redacted.

In the course of a long career in the computer industry I had occasion to play many roles, including working in marketing departments as a sales support engineer and product manager (who wrote white papers—mine were truthful). I ran an advanced development and architecture group and had several dozen PhD researchers working for me. Many of the specifications our group wrote were published unchanged for the use of our customers. I was also on a small board of a dozen of the most senior engineers which reviewed the entire corporate engineering budget ($B) yearly. This was part of a process that resolved the usual conflicts between marketing and engineering such as features, costs, and schedule. During most of the time the company had highly ethical senior management and there were no ethical conflicts between marketing and engineering. There were, of course, the usual struggles over budgets and priorities. Most of our customers were corporations and governments and not individuals, so there was less susceptibility of customers to snake oil than in consumer oriented industries, such as high end audio.


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

Thanks for the interesting insight., posted on October 16, 2009 at 16:46:30
Ugly
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 It's not often I meet people who can see things from both sides of the fence that way and I find it interesting.

RE: who can see things from both sides of the fence, posted on October 16, 2009 at 18:17:54
rick_m
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 Here's the tale of another one.

I was working for an outfit which hired a fellow to be both the engineering manager and product marketing guy for the division. He was actually a good guy and one day I ask him if he didn't find that an irresolvable conflict of interest. His answer was: "Of course. But everywhere I've worked those two positions have wasted 3/4 of their time arguing with each other so this is better because only one person is incapacitated."

Tough to argue with logic like that...

Rick

RE: who can see things from both sides of the fence, posted on October 16, 2009 at 22:08:56
Ugly
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 Haha. That stirred up quite an image. Isn't there an old time comedy skit where the comedian brawls with himself?

RE: Nature..., posted on October 13, 2009 at 07:05:19
rick_m
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 Engineers work with nature too. All too often though it's a brutish nature while scientists get to loll around with Mom nature herself. She seems kinder and more loving to those that only wish to understand and appreciate her than she is to those that want to bend her to their will. Odd that...

Speaking of specifications, way back when my then current engineering VP summed up the world situation beautifully: Humans don't meet Spec.

Rick
Nicely said. nt, posted on October 13, 2009 at 06:16:16
Norm
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It's not arrogant to take a reasoned approach - as opposed to jumping in on some whimsical notion, posted on October 8, 2009 at 07:25:51
Don Till
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 We've gotten far off topic.

Now I've already suggested more than a couple of reasons why different cables from the same manufacturer might sound different. An actual designer may be able to offer other suggestions as well. Until it is determined that these known factors aren't influencing the differences there is no reason or cause to speculate otherwise.

It would be arrogant of me to suggest the only known factors are the ones I have suggested - surely there may be other factors involved that would also need to be explored.

A scientist, physicist or engineer with such a scatterbrained approach, ie. unable to isolate the known from the unknown, surely would never achieve a thing - it would simply be one "guess" after another.

And for whatever this is worth I almost feel sorry for any manufacturer who actually supplies a component unsuscetpable to any RFI, EMI, voltage drops or any other nasties that are plaguing our systems. Surely many audiophiles would consider such a component a low resolution device, publicly ridicule and then shun it.

This topic is very similar to that of speaker wires and interconnects. A components susceptability to differences seemingly is taken to imply higher resolution when in fact this may be the furthest thing from the truth. So what we end up with are components where it is quite difficult to find the correct interconnects, speaker wire and now apparently power cords that suit it well enough to allow it to deliver it's promised performance.

We buy things that some would consider broken yet we convince ourself that the process is one of optimization and that the final quality of the performance is something more than we should have expected in the first place. At the same time equipment that doesn't benefit from such nurturing is held in contempt as if somehow delivering it's best right out of the box should be held against it.

And now you would suggest, and many audiophiles would agree, the reasons for these differences as well as the improvements reaped by various gear are a function of unknown or advance physical concepts not understood by our equipment designers.



It's not arrogant to take a reasoned approach - as opposed to assuming we know everything. nt, posted on October 8, 2009 at 16:20:20
Norm
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Eggs-actly!, posted on October 7, 2009 at 09:06:40
geoffkait
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 But things are far worse than we think. Example: All things being equal, a white power cord will always sound better than a black power cord. And wrapping a black power cord with white tape will improve its sound. One wonders what the EE profs would have to say about that?

RE: Eggs-actly!, posted on October 7, 2009 at 13:46:40
Ugly
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 One would hope it would be something like: Is this data credible? if so, then it is due to X, or let's test it verify it's existence and perhaps move to hypothesizing about it and attempt to isolate the effect and devise experiments designed to yield data which could be used to correlate it with existing theory or be used to propose an expanded theory model based on any never before witnessed results.

Any ideas on what you think might explain this effect per already existing models? Perhaps some sort of thermal/ black body radiation thing going on here? How was the effect isolated...ears, scopes, etc?

RE: "Perhaps some sort of thermal/ black body radiation thing going on here?", posted on October 7, 2009 at 14:41:24
geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 3514
Location: northern Virginia
Joined: August 23, 2000
 "One would hope it would be something like: Is this data credible? if so, then it is due to X, or let's test it verify it's existence and perhaps move to hypothesizing about it and attempt to isolate the effect and devise experiments designed to yield data which could be used to correlate it with existing theory or be used to propose an expanded theory model based on any never before witnessed results."

I have a nagging feeling that would *not* be the EE profs' response. Now that I think about it, most EE profs would probably say power cords all sound the same unless one's defective. Most likely they wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole. Maybe we can get NASA or AES to do it (wink, wink).
RE: "Perhaps some sort of thermal/ black body radiation thing going on here?", posted on October 8, 2009 at 09:38:50
Ugly
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Posts: 1420
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
 You just have to find some application that makes it interesting for industry or "defense" if you want it studied by the big boys. You'd think with certain interconnects getting near the $100K zone now that seems pretty intersting.

EE's always get such a bad rap though. The bad apples hopefully don't spoil the barrel. I suspect you get your geniuses and hacks in every dept.

I know some of these pure physics/math/philosophy/whatever dudes seem like they are off in lala land at times. At the same time you have to be at least a little impressed when you find out they are doing it for the passion for knowledge and probably never even expected to find work in industry. I know my own motivations which drove me from the physics dept. over to the EE dept. were tainted by the hopes of getting a decent paycheck after graduation. My decision still makes sense to me but seems a little dirty at the same time.

One of my good buddies is a math major and all these years later is still eating ramen and hanging around the university. For this guy it's been difficult finding work solving math problems, well, outside the university that is. At least there is always a fresh crop of hot girls on campus even if they generally aren't hanging out in the math/science buildings. :-) At our age it's starting to turn from heroic to a little perverted though. :-)

RE: Eggs-actly!, posted on October 7, 2009 at 10:33:41
Don Till
Audiophile

Posts: 675
Location: Tempe
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 Yea I'm going to upgrading my blue 8tc to the new clear stuff. Yea and I believe the clear/white PBJ sounds better than the old blue stuff too. I've settled for orange LED on my gear even though I know green is preferable.

I wanted to buy some pebbles but they come in a bag now not a bottle. I thought filling the bottle with water would improve their performance. Last thing I want around here, in my dusty environment, are little plastic bags - that would ruin the sound of my systems.

What's really weird is my attempt to pick out the disk treated with the intelligent chip failed - but years later all three of the disks involved in the test sound better than I believe them to sound originally. Maybe I didn't fail in this test - is it possible the other two disks somehow got a dose of the chip?
RE: "Is it possible the other two disks somehow got a dose of the chip?", posted on October 7, 2009 at 16:47:51
geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 3514
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 It's quite possible.

At least you're trying…, posted on October 7, 2009 at 10:39:12
Wellfed
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They'd tell you to get your ass back over to Iso…, posted on October 7, 2009 at 09:53:44
Wellfed
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I was an undergraduate assistant in a physics lab., posted on October 7, 2009 at 09:20:09
Norm
Audiophile

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 I measured impedance and resistance of the same wire repeatedly over a week, probably 1000 times and got normal distributions around each. When I showed these to the prof., he said, of course, measurement error and unknown factors. I was shocked and asked what are unknown factors. He basically ignored my question. At that time I only used standard ac wires, of course. Bob Fulton's welding wires as speaker wires started the slippery slope for me much later.

Sorry Norm your reading and comprehension seems somewhat challenged today, posted on October 5, 2009 at 16:01:19
Don Till
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Posts: 675
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 I stated no knowledge or understanding of any science other than my hands on experience as an audiophile and a test equipment user.

Surely if the test equipment I am using doesn't require an enhanced power cord to operate in an environment where some audio equipment needs one it's fair to conclude that the the circuitry of the test equipment is protected from whatever interference is effecting the audio equipment.

If changing a power cord "fixes" the issue that's all I need to know.

This isn't engineering or physics it's simple common sense.
The impact of a post here can be judged by the number of calls for proof., posted on October 3, 2009 at 20:01:12
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 11876
Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Clearly you struck a nerve.

:)
Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
Prove it!, posted on October 4, 2009 at 01:38:14
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 4001
Joined: January 8, 2002
 I know, too obvious. But you lobbed it up there.....

Touché, posted on October 4, 2009 at 04:14:06
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 11876
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: November 22, 2003
 You got me!

:)
Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
I had dinner last evening with a studio musician, posted on October 3, 2009 at 11:17:24
Bambi B
Audiophile

Posts: 2942
Location: Los Angeles
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PAINTING: "Double Portrait of Nikola Tesla"

Jon Risch,

You're correct that various audiophile insanity' of yesterday can become the mainstream of today.

Only last evening I had dinner with a guitarist friend, Tim, who had come straight from his weekly session at Sony recording the score for an epiode of "The Simpsons"- along with 40 other musicians I might note- they apparently use quite a large group for the series' music. As well as jazz clubs, he plays on the Oscars and Emmy shows and for feature films.

Tim has about 40 guitars and 20+ amplifiers- all tube driven except a tiny "lunchbox" amplifier he uses in small rooms and practice. He has a high quality home studio- Schoeps microphones and MOTU interfaces with Mac.

I started talking about home audiophile matters and mentioned I had recently installed new speaker cables ( Audioquest Rocket 88, 2 X 15' 48V DBS) that made an astounding improvement in my Audio Research SP10 > D115 > Vandersteen 2C system. Tim jumped in with a description of the custom guitar cables he has made here in Los Angeles, which average about $400 each. I then mentioned that the change of the stock power cord on a Cambridge Audio 640C V2 had saved it from being sold as the Audioquest NRG-2 converted the dry lifeless sound to a dynamic, detailed, and even quieter machine. Tim was fascinated and said he had been looking into power cords. This was originally motivated from the concern that he sometimes has to use very long ones- the Sony studio is apparently something like a 60' X 100' room- and there could be a loss of quality- He also is interested in power conditioners.

Tim mentioned that many of his colleagues in the studio musician world also use and discuss special guitar cables, and even at a more regular retail level now asking for Canare and so on by name, and that his acquaintances are beginning to pay more pay attention to high quality patch cords, using the "weakest link" analogy. Tim also is aware and specifies amplifier tube choices.

It's not surprising that subtle audiophile concerns will ease into the professional world as apparently they spend time discussing the tools of their trade. And, as highly paid as studio musicians are, and the competition for this work, they search to optimise their sound.

It's amusing to think of the cable naysayers' insistence that cables can't sound different, which to me seems to a kind of egocentric perceptual jealousy- this type can't hear it so they're adamant neither can you or I. This I believe must derive from those who have not bothered to train their listening, actually have reduced hearing ability, and/or perhaps don't have a reasonable aural memory.

Cheers,

Bambi B

Brilliant Comment....................., posted on October 3, 2009 at 19:24:05
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 22046
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 For someone who I've often clashed with in the past, this was an absolutely brilliant comment..........

"It's amusing to think of the cable naysayers' insistence that cables can't sound different, which to me seems to a kind of egocentric perceptual jealousy"

All the times I've tried to explain what I've thought was resentment over an "inferiority complex" over perception, your description here tops anything I've put forth............. By a mile.............


I've been into high end audio for 40 years..., posted on October 4, 2009 at 06:36:05
Hepcat
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Location: Atlanta
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 ...belonged to audio societies and spent way too much for equipment. And I've never yet met met anyone who could prove they heard "differences" more than probabilities of chance.

The best times were tests where nothing was really changed and yet members claimed to hear magificent changes.
* I'm like a one-eyed cat peeping in a seafood store *
RE: I've been into high end audio for 40 years..., posted on October 13, 2009 at 20:03:17
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 22046
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 "And I've never yet met met anyone who could prove they heard 'differences' more than probabilities of chance."

Neither have I...... Nobody ever had such objective...............

I'd go as far as saying most of them, if subjected to a test, wouldn't even care if they failed it......

The point is people get what they like....... They might subconsciously think they hear a difference in auditioning, but it's only for the reason that they think they'd be more happy with the component or tweak under audition. Maybe where most of them end up choosing gear from placebo effect than anything else. No point making an issue over that.


So why did you back away from YOUR OWN challenge below?, posted on October 5, 2009 at 08:13:58
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
Location: NJ
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 What is this coat hangers and jumper cables silliness?

Nothing could be simpler - spend a day in nice area in South Jersey pinelands, participating in low-stress test, and get home with a grand in your pocket (all travel expenses reimbursed). There's no way you could lose that bet, right?

Here's your chance to get an answer to your own question, instead of asking it for N-th time.

I tried the coat hanger thing, posted on October 5, 2009 at 11:26:57
kerr
Audiophile

Posts: 3695
Location: Central Indiana
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 But it sounded like someone had placed a cloth over my speakers. Actually, more than a cloth... sounded like a McGruff special!

Are you supposed to take the coat off first????

You tried it in wrong application - you were supposed to make a POWER CORD of it, and..., posted on October 5, 2009 at 11:31:48
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
Location: NJ
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 ... audition it against another one, made of car jumper cables. Allegories abound...

RE: You tried it in wrong application - you were supposed to make a POWER CORD of it, and..., posted on October 5, 2009 at 12:52:38
kerr
Audiophile

Posts: 3695
Location: Central Indiana
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 >audition it against another one, made of car jumper cables. Allegories abound... <

I've done that. The car jumper cable wires improved my system's pace and acceleration. Actually, the timing, too - the whole PRAT thing. My wheels were spinning and I was exhausted after the listening session, so I steered myself .

Is that what you meant by allegories??? :)
Exactly. I would also mention timing belt, as in Beltian tweeks., posted on October 5, 2009 at 13:07:13
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
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 As for exact application - I'm not sure, really. May be you should hang couple of objectivists on timing belts at first reflection points in your listening room, or something...

RE: Exactly. I would also mention timing belt, as in Beltian tweeks., posted on October 5, 2009 at 13:18:54
kerr
Audiophile

Posts: 3695
Location: Central Indiana
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 >May be you should hang couple of objectivists on timing belts at first reflection points in your listening room, or something... <

As soon as I change my room decor to Early Pythagorean Flat Earth-tones, I'll try that. Right now they wouldn't mesh.
RE: "I've been into high end audio for 40 years", posted on October 4, 2009 at 07:17:50
geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 3514
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 We get this a lot from audiophiles with 30 or 40 years of experience. Apparently, *experience* varies all over the place. Better luck next time.

Its a shame that in your forty years, posted on October 4, 2009 at 07:14:40
E-Stat
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Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 and living in the Atlanta area, you never had a chance to hear Dr. Cooledge's many review systems where such is pretty easy to hear. It was borrowing his Kimber Palladian power cords and hearing them in my system over a weekend that proved the case for me.

I see you are reticent to answer my other question. I gather then that you have not actually heard any good power cable in your ADS/Mac system. Which is the case for 99% of the folks who argue against their value. They just can't imagine how they can make a difference. So they don't!

rw

I love Dr. Cooledge., posted on October 4, 2009 at 09:46:42
Hepcat
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Posts: 1814
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 But he and I don't have to hear the same things to be friends.

Btw, I once bet a friend of mine (and later business partner) who had a new system back in the 70's that I could tell the difference between a cassette tape and an 8-track tape of the same album. I think it was Willie's "Stardust" album. He only played one song, the same from each and He and I both had witnesses to make sure the test was "fair".

I lost.
* I'm like a one-eyed cat peeping in a seafood store *
So, you know know JWC, posted on October 4, 2009 at 10:54:24
E-Stat
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 Indeed with his vast musical experience and listening acumen, he hears deeper into recordings than most folks. I remember first hearing his system when I was a teenager back in the 70s. Part of that fine ability to discern differences begins with having exposure to a range of components. That is what is clearly lacking with cable naysayers.

I'm not sure what the Willie Nelson story is supposed to illustrate. I gather again, that your direct experience with aftermarket cords in your system is zilch.

rw

After-market power cords., posted on October 4, 2009 at 13:21:43
Hepcat
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
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 All I know is that McIntosh used to use heavy duty "iron cords" on their stuff and I never had a problem.

Then they switched to three-prong plugs and I got hum from hell. I put cheater plugs on and the hum went away.

"My daughther falls down a well and her eyes go crossed. She gets kicked by a mule and they go back straight. I don't know!"
* I'm like a one-eyed cat peeping in a seafood store *
You have a ground loop problem, posted on October 4, 2009 at 13:34:24
E-Stat
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 Most likely caused by a cable box, not the generic three prong cords used by the Macs. I suffer the same situation with my HT system (presumably you have a cable box connected in the mix). My system required using a cheater on the subs equalizer - not a power amp!

High quality power cords are beyond correcting gross hum errors like you experience. They improve low level resolution. :)

rw
I keep Parts Express cable isolation transformers..., posted on October 6, 2009 at 18:44:49
Hepcat
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Location: Atlanta
Joined: February 7, 2003
 ...in a bag like peanuts. I use them everywhere.

I've never seen a ground loop hum that couldn't be solved by one of those and a cheater plug.

Face it, we all have a lot of stuff hooked up in our homes.
* I'm like a one-eyed cat peeping in a seafood store *
Back to the topic..., posted on October 7, 2009 at 06:04:17
E-Stat
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 All I know is that McIntosh used to use heavy duty "iron cords" on their stuff and I never had a problem.

It had nothing to do with their being heavy duty or not. They were not grounded. And most certainly did not provide any RFI filtering.

rw

Very gracious of you to say- thank you (nt), posted on October 3, 2009 at 20:21:15
Bambi B
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Posts: 2942
Location: Los Angeles
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 BB

They're great! Where would the Who be without them?, posted on October 3, 2009 at 09:40:47
Bruce Kendall
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  Since: February 4, 2005
 Oops, I think I misread your subject line. Cords, chords, what's the difference?



LOL! Good one!, posted on October 3, 2009 at 17:49:51
FenderLover
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Posts: 3309
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Contributor
  Since: May 17, 2009
 also, Bambi.... guitar ppl have been arguing over guitar patch cords and even AC lines for years now. Even... SHUDDER, Monster has had patch cords for awhile (maybe 10 years). Cordless is the way to go now (at least with some folks). You know who is really into boutique this-&-that in the Pro world? Amp techs. Some get commission for pushing products.

To me, the $$ of the cords doesn't help the fingers.

:^)

The Who put both to fine use at various times..., posted on October 3, 2009 at 09:52:13
musetap
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  Since: January 28, 2004

N/T
“ Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination. ” -Michael McClure
Would you bet me a million$ you could hear the difference., posted on October 2, 2009 at 10:45:08
Hepcat
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Location: Atlanta
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 Ahh, make that a thousand$.

No you couldn't.

God, I get tired of these posts
* I'm like a one-eyed cat peeping in a seafood store *
And I get tired of these kinds of posts...., posted on October 4, 2009 at 19:58:37
Jon Risch
Bored Member

Posts: 6117
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Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 ....so we are even?

Perhaps you are not familiar with me.

See:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/2190.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/2579.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/2580.html
and
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/cables.htm
Jon Risch
"Perhaps you are not familiar with me", posted on October 7, 2009 at 19:53:26
andy_c
Audiophile

Posts: 963
Joined: June 2, 2007
 I am the most interesting man in the world.

Did you know, my farts smell so good, people inhale twice?

Stay thirsty my friends!

What happened to all the other drunken cynics when the Annex closed it's doors?…, posted on October 8, 2009 at 22:16:01
Wellfed
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Posts: 11220
Joined: January 11, 2008



$1000? I would - if it's reciprocal, and involves my system, my listening room, and recordings of my choice., posted on October 2, 2009 at 11:05:29
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
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 If you're serious about it, and don't mind traveling to NJ (loser of the bet pays all expenses for travel, food and hotel), just let me know. We can work out all the details.

Time to put our money where mouth is, don't you think?

A power cord makes a difference?, posted on October 2, 2009 at 11:22:23
Hepcat
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Location: Atlanta
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 You're kidding right?

The transformer out on the pole dates back to the '50's and has stains on the side.

My McIntosh stack doesn't seem to notice. Which cord do you suggest I change?
* I'm like a one-eyed cat peeping in a seafood store *
Hep, you're missing the point, posted on October 2, 2009 at 13:54:00
E-Stat
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  Since: April 5, 2002
 The usual canard is that after miles and miles of cable, how could the last three feet matter. It is because they represent the first three feet.

Theory is a great thing when you don't let it close your mind.

You say that your Mac gear doesn't notice. Which aftermarket cords have you used that they "don't notice"?

rw

No idea - but we're talking about whether I (not you) hear a difference on MY (not your) system, right?, posted on October 2, 2009 at 11:42:30
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
Location: NJ
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 Let me repeat my invitation, on conditions specified above.

To make it even more appealing:

You're welcome to bring whatever cords you would like, and I will also supply some. Blind testing will start only after sighted one, in which we both will participate, and 2 cords for blind testing will be selected to satisfy BOTH of the following conditions:

1. You are sure there's NO difference in sound between 2 cords in sighted audition

2. I am sure there IS difference in sound between 2 cords in sighted audition

Let me know.

No sighted anything., posted on October 2, 2009 at 11:48:04
Hepcat
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Location: Atlanta
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 If I use coat hanger wires you should hear it, right?
* I'm like a one-eyed cat peeping in a seafood store *
If coat hanger wire is what you're using for POWER cord - that's fine, although probably not safe., posted on October 2, 2009 at 12:04:47
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
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 Sighted audition before blind one is necessary, to determine if there are differences at all - nobody claims EVERYTHING to sound different.

It's common practice, BTW, which even the extreme "objectivists" at HA seem to accept. Please read anything on DBT protocol. Why would you object against it?

However, if it's REALLY coat hanger wires for POWER cord, I think we can skip that sighted part - less risk, you know...

Well, maybe I was kidding about coat hanger wire., posted on October 2, 2009 at 12:18:28
Hepcat
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
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 How about big battery jumper cables? Tripple A Approved of course.
* I'm like a one-eyed cat peeping in a seafood store *
Better. You'd still have to make a cord of that - or you're thinking speaker cables?, posted on October 2, 2009 at 12:34:36
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
Location: NJ
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 Either way, I'm all for it.

But with sighted audition anyway - just to make sure it indeed sounds different to me from $500 power cord (or $1500 speaker cables).

It's about time term "objectionist" is introduced (apologies if it's not really new)., posted on October 2, 2009 at 10:29:10
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
Location: NJ
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 Because, you know, some of the most bone-headed "objectivists" seemingly started to call themselves "subjectivists" (case in point - post right below). Don't know why - either the old term is too compromised, or they are just lost in those "...ist" definitions.

However, come to think of it - what's really so objective about sitting on the pile of cheap garbage, with ears plugged with bananas, and proclaiming "I can't hear a damn thing, so you can't either, and if you say you do, you have to provide evidence" (substitute "you're mentally ill", "you're gullible", "you're audiophool" according to taste)?

RE: Pro's In The Know - Power Cords, posted on October 2, 2009 at 09:39:16
Peter H-son
Audiophile

Posts: 1403
Joined: October 17, 2007
 "Objectionists sometimes like to try and cite professional's in audio as rejecting audio tweaks, and being derisive of audio cable issues."

I am a subjectivist myself, so I wouldn't know.

But you are aware that that is a fallacious argument? It will not fool any critically thinking individual. It takes more than "he says" or "she says" to convince a skeptic.

Extraordinary claims like yours need to be backed by some sort of evidence. This is garbage.

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up"
--James 5:14-15
Please describe how you are a "subjectivist"..., posted on October 2, 2009 at 12:34:05
mkuller
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  Since: December 28, 2003
 ...as opposed to an "objectionist".

You seem to require some type of objectionist proof.

And be part of some unidentified group you call "we".

It's like this..., posted on October 3, 2009 at 11:12:10
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 11876
Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: November 22, 2003
 Things he believes in... subjectivist.
Things he doesn't believe in ... objectivist.

LOL

Everything matters, don't forget to tweak your placebos!
RE: Please describe how you are a "subjectivist"..., posted on October 2, 2009 at 13:20:50
Peter H-son
Audiophile

Posts: 1403
Joined: October 17, 2007
 "You seem to require some type of objectionist proof."

Yes, when people make outlandish claims.

If you tell me you can run faster than Bolt, I ask for proof.

If you tell me you can hear difference between wires, I ask for proof.

If you tell me pigs can fly, I ask for proof.

If you tell me you are Napoleon reincarnated or otherwise, I ask for proof.

Who wouldn't?

"Subjectivist/objectivist" is silly.

We can only experience the world subjectively. That's why we use the scientific method.

Believing in "adiophoolery" or not has nothing to do with subjective/objective.



"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up"
--James 5:14-15
You shouldn't swipe photos from other member's posts and use, posted on October 2, 2009 at 16:53:10
musetap
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  Since: January 28, 2004
 them in YOUR posts, especially when your general audio philosophy seems diametrically opposed to that of the person whose photo you have used.

Did you use it with his permission? Didn't think so.

It is unethical and irresponsible.

“ Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination. ” -Michael McClure
This is a hobbyist newsgroup..., posted on October 2, 2009 at 13:29:40
mkuller
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  Since: December 28, 2003
 ...only an a**hole would ask another hobbyist for "proof".

If you don't believe it when someone tells you their wires sound better, why do you make an issue of it?

Because you fit the definition of an objectionist.

As audiophiles, we only have to convince ourselves of the differences, since no one else matters, because it's our money to spend.

We've never claimed our opinions are based on rigorous scientific testing, just careful observation.

If you want to debate audible differences, with your pseudoscience pro-DBT bias, I would suggest there are more appropriate boards for you than this one.
RE: This is a hobbyist newsgroup..., posted on October 3, 2009 at 05:57:13
Peter H-son
Audiophile

Posts: 1403
Joined: October 17, 2007
 "If you don't believe it when someone tells you their wires sound better, why do you make an issue of it?"

I don't. You are the ones making an issue of it.

You come here a lie and try to bully people.

"As audiophiles, we only have to convince ourselves of the differences, since no one else matters, because it's our money to spend."

Lie to YOURSELVES. Not me.

"We've never claimed our opinions are based on rigorous scientific testing, just careful observation."

At least try to keep your lies straight. "Scientific evidence of power cables reducing signal distortion"

"If you want to debate audible differences, with your pseudoscience pro-DBT bias, I would suggest there are more appropriate boards for you than this one."

There is nothing to debate. I don't give a rat's ass about your superstitious beliefs and irrational anti-science rants. Just keep them away from this forum.

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up"
--James 5:14-15
When you start sounding like an angry Joe Wilson..., posted on October 3, 2009 at 11:29:18
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 15929
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 28, 2003
 ...it's time to go back on your meds and get some professional help.
RE: When you start sounding like an angry Joe Wilson..., posted on October 3, 2009 at 13:36:59
Peter H-son
Audiophile

Posts: 1403
Joined: October 17, 2007
 This message has been moved to a more appropriate venue.



"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up"
--James 5:14-15
Thanks I agree except..........., posted on October 2, 2009 at 08:48:57
Awe-d-o-file
Manufacturer

Posts: 6093
Location: 2 hr. west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 with this: "It doesn't matter that they literally make their living with their ears, and must know what good sound is, when they hear it. Or the customer goes elsewhere."


Most pro sound and studio owners and musicians I have met don't have good ears and the fact they are "getting in the game" so late may be some proof.


ET




Question "Authority", the mainstream media sucks - Go Independent and hold BOTH parties accountable instead of just the other guys!

I need music to help forget the reality of today
Yep., posted on October 2, 2009 at 10:57:31
Hepcat
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Location: Atlanta
Joined: February 7, 2003
 Buck Owens had a little system in his office and his car much like he thought his fans had.

The three best songs ever recorded and equalized for car music (IMO)

1. The Race is on (Buck and George)
2. Green River CCR
3. (Oh) Pretty Woman Roy Orbison.
* I'm like a one-eyed cat peeping in a seafood store *
To this I say..., posted on October 2, 2009 at 01:23:53
KlausR.
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Joined: November 17, 2004
 On Some Biases Encountered in Modern Audio Quality Listening Tests - A Review

A careful evaluation of listening tests designed to measure audio quality shows that they are vulnerable to systematic errors, which include biases due to affective judgments, response mapping bias, and interface bias. As a result of factors such as personal preferences, the appearance of the equipment, and the listeners' expectations or mood, errors can range up to 40% with respect to the total range of the scale. As a general conclusion, test results should be considered relative, rather than absolute. Scales in previous studies, which have been assumed to be linear, may exhibit departure from linearity. The visual appearance of the user interface may lead to severe quantization of the distribution of scores. Recommendations are offered to improve audio quality tests.

Authors: Zielinski, Slawomir; Rumsey, Francis; Bech, Søren
Affiliations: Institute of Sound Recording, University of Surrey, Guildford, GU2 7XH, UK ; Bang & Olufsen, Struer, Denmark
JAES Volume 56 Issue 6 pp. 427-451; June 2008


Power cords, speaker cables etc. may or may not affect the sound. As long as the listening tests that "prove" that such devices make an audible difference include sources of potential bias at every corner, you won't convince the skeptics.

Klaus

RE: "You won't convince the skeptics.", posted on October 2, 2009 at 08:10:26
geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 3514
Location: northern Virginia
Joined: August 23, 2000
 No matter, they aren't really skeptics, anyway, since they never actually investigate anything themselves and forever demand someone else do it.

The Skeptical Community. Ooooooooo!
RE: "You won't convince the skeptics.", posted on October 3, 2009 at 16:01:23
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 22046
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 "No matter, they aren't really skeptics, anyway, since they never actually investigate anything themselves and forever demand someone else do it."

For once, you nailed it.........


RE: "You won't convince the skeptics.", posted on October 3, 2009 at 17:21:27
geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 3514
Location: northern Virginia
Joined: August 23, 2000
 "For once you nailed it."

Even a blind dog finds a bone once in a while.

"you won't convince the skeptics" - when will you understand that HE DOESN'T NEED to?, posted on October 2, 2009 at 08:05:22
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 That seems to be main problem here...

So called "sceptics" for some reason think that world of audio revolves around them - when in fact, nobody gives a damn. You (not personally, but rather as "objectivist" mass) can believe, or not, whatever you want - just don't tell me that only because you can't hear anything, I can't either.

Do requests for evidence make you nervous?, posted on October 2, 2009 at 09:34:42
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 7558
Joined: June 20, 2000
 Apparently so.



"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
No, but it is annoying that you don't attempt to answer the questions for yourself., posted on October 5, 2009 at 04:10:35
morricab
Dealer

Posts: 4456
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 nt

So you want me to get an ABX comparator to test 'your' claims?, posted on October 6, 2009 at 12:08:19
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 7558
Joined: June 20, 2000
 Don't be silly.

"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
RE: So you want me to get an ABX comparator to test 'your' claims?, posted on October 7, 2009 at 01:47:16
morricab
Dealer

Posts: 4456
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Which claims are those?? I have made no claims about power cords

If you are the one who demands evidence when one merely reports their perceptions then, posted on October 6, 2009 at 14:37:14
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 4001
Joined: January 8, 2002
 yes. DIY dude. DIY. Most of us are too busy having fun.

You are simply confused. (nt), posted on October 6, 2009 at 18:40:07
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 7558
Joined: June 20, 2000
 .

"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
well all else fails, good ole ad hominem, posted on October 6, 2009 at 23:12:25
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 4001
Joined: January 8, 2002
 I accept your concession.

It was a simple statement of fact--and you agreed you are confused., posted on October 7, 2009 at 10:30:30
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 7558
Joined: June 20, 2000
 Link below.

"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
Didn't your mommy teach not to lie?, posted on October 7, 2009 at 11:58:21
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 4001
Joined: January 8, 2002
 I agreed that I am confused? Bulllllllshiiiiiit. Do you constantly try to destroy your credibility on purpose?

Quote from Analog Scott: "that makes me confused......", posted on October 8, 2009 at 12:54:24
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 7558
Joined: June 20, 2000
 You just make up spurious motivations for me and try to imply somehow that I don't enjoy music. Not only do I listen to music, I perform quite a lot of music.

Now, this is supposed to be a forum for: "Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics." If you don't think such things are worth discussing, why do you come here?

"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
Wow! You really are that dishonest, posted on October 8, 2009 at 21:09:35
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 4001
Joined: January 8, 2002
 That you would take a quote out of context like that. Lets look at the quote in it's context

"You aren't getting it and that makes me confused......
yeah right. Is this just your last word fettish rearing it's ugly head? You aren't even trying to fake having an argument."


Maybe, just maybe, you really are dumb enough to honestly think this was a confession of confusion. I'm actually giving you the benefit of the doubt when I call you a liar. How sad is that?

Pity you won't admit your misrepresentations. (nt), posted on October 9, 2009 at 11:09:23
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 7558
Joined: June 20, 2000
 .

"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
are you trying to be ironic or is it a case of..., posted on October 10, 2009 at 10:44:56
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 4001
Joined: January 8, 2002
 just not being able to help yourself do to an utter lack of self-awareness combined with an odd inner belief that the last word gives you the victory no matter how badly you have done in any debate?

It is doubtful that anyone who reads this thread..., posted on October 10, 2009 at 09:37:36
robert young
Audiophile

Posts: 2226
Location: new york
Joined: October 19, 2003
Contributor
  Since: July 13, 2004
 will accept your semantic gymnastics. Either you are unaware of context in discourse, or you are dishonest. If you can't win an argument on the merits of content, better baffle 'em with bullshit, eh, Pat?

RE: It is doubtful that anyone who reads this thread..., posted on October 13, 2009 at 10:29:04
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 7558
Joined: June 20, 2000
 I would think that any intelligent person who reads this thread would wonder how my motivations, love of music, etc., have to do with the conditions under which changing cables and interconnects makes an audible difference to the sound.

"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
RE: It is doubtful that anyone who reads this thread..., posted on October 14, 2009 at 04:39:44
morricab
Dealer

Posts: 4456
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I would wonder how anyone (intellignet or otherwise) would be able to make clear sense of your statement.

You chose to get involved., posted on October 13, 2009 at 10:31:32
robert young
Audiophile

Posts: 2226
Location: new york
Joined: October 19, 2003
Contributor
  Since: July 13, 2004
 No one forces you to have to backtrack. You knew what the topic was, so why are you participating?

RE: You chose to get involved., posted on October 13, 2009 at 13:48:45
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 7558
Joined: June 20, 2000
 Backtrack? What have I backtracked on?

"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
You've backtracked on being involved., posted on October 13, 2009 at 14:06:14
robert young
Audiophile

Posts: 2226
Location: new york
Joined: October 19, 2003
Contributor
  Since: July 13, 2004
 Come on, Pat. You were right in the middle of the discussion, and now you're acting like the innocent babe who had nothing to do with it. You stepped into the shit fully aware: now you are backtracking right out.

But your shoes have still got shit on them.

You really are just making that up. (nt), posted on October 14, 2009 at 08:30:49
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 7558
Joined: June 20, 2000
 .

"Probability is the very guide to life."---Cicero
Nope., posted on October 14, 2009 at 17:11:58
robert young
Audiophile

Posts: 2226
Location: new york
Joined: October 19, 2003
Contributor
  Since: July 13, 2004
 Try again.

"Try again. ", posted on October 14, 2009 at 20:26:17
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 4001
Joined: January 8, 2002
 That you can rely on.

No he isn't., posted on October 14, 2009 at 10:05:21
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 4001
Joined: January 8, 2002
 messing with last word freaks

It has made me a recluse., posted on October 2, 2009 at 13:05:16
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 4001
Joined: January 8, 2002
 "Hey I found this great burger joint!"

"Evidence please"

"Agggghhhhhh I have none so my opinions are meaningless!!!! Why ??????!!!!!! what a world!!!! I hate myself!!!!! My opinions are not scientific!!! I fall on my sword!!!! I am defeated....."

Nope. When - and if - I get nervous, you'll be one of the first to know about it., posted on October 2, 2009 at 09:52:32
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 And that won't be pretty - I guarantee.

Just get in line behind Peter H-son - while your arguments are equally pathetic, your delivery is just too toothless, to get all worked up about.

Excellent post! (nt), posted on October 2, 2009 at 08:16:03
kerr
Audiophile

Posts: 3695
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: November 10, 2003
 nt

thanks NT, posted on October 2, 2009 at 07:59:35
tesla
Audiophile

Posts: 1727
Location: San Diego County, California
Joined: October 25, 2000
 NT
"Son, let this be a lesson to you: never do tequila shooters within a country mile of a marriage chapel."
- Al Bundy
RE: Thanks..., posted on October 2, 2009 at 01:32:36
theaudiohobby
Audiophile

Posts: 4438
Joined: January 16, 2003
 "Power cords, speaker cables etc. may or may not affect the sound. As long as the listening tests that "prove" that such devices make an audible difference include sources of potential bias at every corner, you won't convince the skeptics."

Exactly...


Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Who cares about the skeptics? I was more concerned about convincing the Amish., posted on October 2, 2009 at 09:33:22
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 4001
Joined: January 8, 2002
 but I can't get them in a room that has electricity running through the walls. Oh well. maybe I should work on the Mormons. Convincing them will be a real triumph for subjectivism.

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