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One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?

70.95.249.62
Posted on November 7, 2009 at 08:19:56
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Are we at the brink of...

"Audiophile grade" power cords for your PC/MAC?

Isolation devices for your PC/MAC/Laptop?

$3000 "cryo" gold plated USB cables?

WBT input/output jacks for your PC/MAC?

Tube modified PC/MACs?

Or have gone over the edge already?

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 9, 2009 at 18:35:40
bullethead
Audiophile

Posts: 335
Location: New York
Joined: June 15, 2009
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2009
 It's here already. Small botique shops offer all of this that you speak of, the rest will follow.

Too late. Or just getting started!, posted on November 8, 2009 at 08:55:25
JerryS
Reviewer

Posts: 1503
Joined: February 24, 2001
 I can't address every tweek you mentioned, but different power cords have a sonic effect on DACs. Also, Firewire cables sound different, with the clear jacket braided-ground sounding better than the thin black cable.

And so it goes.

Happy listening.

Regards,
JerryS

RE: Too late. Or just getting started!, posted on November 8, 2009 at 12:30:22
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Oh I have no issues with aftermarket ac cords on DACs, I use a PS Audio on my DAC.

On a PC or MAC, that is a bit different.

Had no idea Firewire cables could sound different.

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 20:06:41
AstroD
Audiophile

Posts: 80
Location: So Cal
Joined: October 13, 2003
 I'm not sure if a high end power cord helps SPDIF output (I suspect it does help jitter), but my new Acoustic Zen Krakatoa power cable is a huge upgrade for my audiophile PC w/1212m analog out. I have one on the Arcam A90 amp as well and those two together have transformed my system - bigger soundstage, smoother, more detailed, better highs, less fatiguing, etc. They are plugged into two dedicated AC circuits.

I'm really glad I don't have to worry about the quality of a USB or SPDIF cable or the power connection for an external DAC - and still get excellent sound. Keepin' it simple.
Interesting, posted on November 8, 2009 at 11:50:46
mls-stl
Audiophile

Posts: 1628
Location: St. Louis
Joined: April 11, 2006
 Never thought a $750 power cable fell in the "keeping it simple" category...

However, audiophilia seems to lack common points of reference when it comes to descriptions. This makes it a good hobby for pursuing one's own muse. ;-)
RE: Interesting, posted on November 8, 2009 at 18:27:22
AstroD
Audiophile

Posts: 80
Location: So Cal
Joined: October 13, 2003
 > Never thought a $750 power cable fell in the "keeping it simple" category...

I said simple, not cheap! I didn't pay retail for them. Living in San Diego county, I get to deal with AZ and Robert Lee directly.

Part of the upgraded performance over the Tsunami is the connectors, which are actually made with "zero crystal" silver in the Krakatoa. And the 9ga helps since a PC can draw a few more watts than a DAC or CD player.
RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 8, 2009 at 06:57:41
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Let me understand. You use the the analog outs of your PC as your source?
That is cool. How is the PC modded?

I use the Acoustic Zen Tsunamis. Great stuff.

But you may be the first that I have heard to use it on a PC!

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 8, 2009 at 18:55:24
AstroD
Audiophile

Posts: 80
Location: So Cal
Joined: October 13, 2003
 Yes, analog outs - I wanted to see what's possible with this route.

Mods are:
The PC is Windows 7 RC, Asus A8N32-SLI Deluxe mobo (yeah I know, overkill), underclocked from 2Ghz to 1.4Ghz (not any less because it's also used for movies), outboard hard drives and powered separately, an "outboard" CPU fan powered separately (with the Zalman HSF's fan not running), a few cMP tweaks, E-Mu 1212m, Mogami Gold 1/4" to RCA cable, Corsair HX620 power supply (nice low voltage ripple). The Mogami is a very good cable by itself, but the main issue there is needing 1/4 to RCA and a 2m run. I don't really feel the need to upgrade that until/if I move on from my Arcam A90 - I want balanced in. I'm still running a PCI video card, but my next mobo will be one of the cMP recommended ones or a Gigabyte with on-board video and HDCP.

A key factor for this system is running the PC and amp off their own dedicated circuits.

So, as far as my ears can tell, there is little to no audible problem with a CPU being in the mix, especially when undervolted. The sound is absolutely good enough for me and definitely compares well to the many high end shops I've visited around town, in terms of extension, detail, tonality, sound stage, dynamics, etc. Even with DVDs and Blurays it sounds great. I am missing the full 96/192khz sound from Blurays, though. But at least it's not compressed.

The journey continues...
RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 9, 2009 at 07:22:23
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Wow. This is impressive. I honestly think you are the first I've heard of who is using the PC direct into a high quality system, bypassing external DACs and even a preamp. Very bold.

Then "PC Audiophilia" maybe warranted in this case as you actual analog audio signal is coming from a computer.

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 9, 2009 at 14:03:40
AstroD
Audiophile

Posts: 80
Location: So Cal
Joined: October 13, 2003
 I like to take the road less traveled.

I am going into a preamp, but I did try it direct to the amp, and while it was cleaner, there was a lack of body to it that I didn't care for. Impedance mismatch, I assume.

People underestimate just how good the latest PC power supplies can be in terms of voltage ripple. The main reason companies like Corsair aim for low ripple is PC reliability (especially under load when gaming, etc), but they may be looking at audio performance also.

I really liked the idea of a single box that would be the transport and DAC, like a CD player on steroids. Add DVD/Bluray and it's a nice one box solution. If I didn't require my PC to be a few feet from the amp for power reasons, I'd look into an HTPC case for it. For now, the vertical case is best.
The marketing of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD)..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 15:38:02
doodlebug
Audiophile

Posts: 1741
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
Joined: July 27, 2006
 has exerted its ugly head in these parts, IMHO.

Frankly, its bunk if one applies some logic.

Cheers,

David
RE: The marketing of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD)..., posted on November 8, 2009 at 06:56:03
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Unfortunately, logic and audiophilia tend to be mutually exclusive.

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 14:04:26
Squonk
Audiophile

Posts: 1682
Location: Indianapolis
Joined: August 17, 2005
 Spending a very large amount of mullah at this point isn't advisable, unless of course, you have a bunch of extra money to burn. When you read the posts of the trail blazing engineers, you will see there is still quite a bit of pioneering going on. However, if you do have a lot of money lying around, we would appreciate it if you could become an early adopter. lol We have a select few in here who are on the front lines, which is helpful, as long as you keep things in perspective. Oh, and try to remain lighthearted. If you spend $20,000.00 on a new USB cable & someone snickers, please do not launch a diatribe.
Photobucket
RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 8, 2009 at 06:55:06
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 I'm an early adopter, but right now my money is making me money, so none to spare on gold plated cryo treated USB cables.

I'm in Wait and See mode!

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 8, 2009 at 07:46:25
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2538
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 You've fallen into the abyss.

An 'early adopter' in 'wait and see mode'. What's left of my mind boggles...

R.

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 8, 2009 at 08:03:10
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Now I know you are paying attention.

- o
+++

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 8, 2009 at 07:09:11
Squonk
Audiophile

Posts: 1682
Location: Indianapolis
Joined: August 17, 2005
 lol. Don't forget 99.99% oxygen free, solid sterling silver, baptized, USB super doozies.
Photobucket
RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 8, 2009 at 08:02:05
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 If they have not been blessed by 72 virgins, I have not interest.

A lot of it is snake oil..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:40:49
Scrith
Audiophile

Posts: 852
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: July 19, 2005
 ...and some of it isn't. The only way to know is to try it for yourself. What I call "shiny new toy syndrome" runs rampant around here, with lots of glowing reviews of expensive new acquisitions sounding infinitely better than tired old cheap components, most of which I believe to be a psychological effect.

And let me be the first to say that I suffer from it as well...the disappointment of finding out that that new cable I just got, which sounded so amazing when I first tried it, but sounds exactly the same (or 99.9% the same) when my wife blind tests it on me, is a real eye opener.

ah but how would you know?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 14:11:53
dave c
Audiophile

Posts: 28425
Location: Ferny Hills
Joined: April 17, 2000
 If you discount people's ears on grounds of placebo, you can also discount them on grounds of cynicism... the anti-placebo!
As a (perhaps) veteran 10 year tweaker, looking back I see how the obsession moves from isolation to power supply to cryogenics to this to that and, when in full flood, a lot of people try things and find differences.
I have no doubt everything counts, but perhaps as opposed to Depeche Mode, I am not sure it is in large amounts.
There will always be people trying to screw your hard earned money with something sham and always be people selling good products for reasonable prices.
What I do know is that effects vary from component to component and sometimes the biggest differences are in the cheaper components.


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RE: ah but how would you know?, posted on November 8, 2009 at 08:44:01
Phelonious Ponk
Audiophile

Posts: 558
Location: NC
Joined: September 3, 2007
 Computer audio makes it easy, at least for things you can switch between quickly. Get yourself an AB/X testing program. Run a few trials. Can you ID A and B consistently? No? Send the new cable or component back. If you bought it without a return policy, I'm sorry. No software will help prevent you from being a fool.

P

Great Idea, posted on November 8, 2009 at 12:03:33
Dynaudio_Rules
Audiophile

Posts: 5606
Location: Georgia
Joined: April 1, 2005
 However A/B software can induce huge amounts of Jitter...something about the algorithm that induces the processor to time shift data in an osculating pattern, creating quantum shifts in the magnetic properties of the cables and hard drive.

Other than that it works great!




Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
RE: Great Idea, posted on November 8, 2009 at 17:11:08
Phelonious Ponk
Audiophile

Posts: 558
Location: NC
Joined: September 3, 2007
 Careful. There are plenty of people ready to believe something like that.

P

RE: A lot of it is snake oil..., posted on November 7, 2009 at 13:21:40
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Take comfort, been there done that. Some things are obvious to distinguish, so are not.

Buying into too many of the audio reviewers obsessions and neurotic imaginations can be harmful to your audio health.

Snake Oil Works Too, posted on November 7, 2009 at 12:23:15
Dynaudio_Rules
Audiophile

Posts: 5606
Location: Georgia
Joined: April 1, 2005
 In many countries placebo medicines are a valid method of treatment.

For example upwards of 30% men who were treated for ED responded positively to a placebo. In other cases just the change of medication color increased the potency. If the greater part of reality is perception then anything that changes or affects perception alone is valid.

Just ask people who pay $3000 for a DAC how it sounds compared to a $500 DAC....night and day. Yeah right.




Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
RE: Snake Oil Works Too, posted on November 7, 2009 at 14:19:20
AudioDoctor
Audiophile

Posts: 678
Location: Minnesota
Joined: March 25, 2008
 I still have the Benchmark if you would like to come over and put your perceptions up against reality?

Happiness is a clean record, and warm tubes!
RE: Snake Oil Works Too, posted on November 7, 2009 at 15:18:40
Dynaudio_Rules
Audiophile

Posts: 5606
Location: Georgia
Joined: April 1, 2005
 My perception of Benchmark is a product that has clarity but no real musicality. Is the reality any different?

Only because I expect it to sound similar to the Lavry I had....



Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
RE: Snake Oil Works Too, posted on November 7, 2009 at 15:21:02
AudioDoctor
Audiophile

Posts: 678
Location: Minnesota
Joined: March 25, 2008
 My comment was based on the assumption that the difference between the $3000 DAC (Cosecant) and the $500 DAC (Benchmark) plus 500 for both of course, is not night and day. The Benchmark has clarity, but no soul, the Cosecant has clarity AND soul, and the difference is night and day.

Happiness is a clean record, and warm tubes!
Ohhhhh, posted on November 7, 2009 at 15:37:23
Dynaudio_Rules
Audiophile

Posts: 5606
Location: Georgia
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I see....at least my assessment of the Benchmark was close....souless.

So you bought a soul for 3K, I think souls can come at a cheaper price if you look around.



Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
RE: Ohhhhh, posted on November 7, 2009 at 22:01:16
Squonk
Audiophile

Posts: 1682
Location: Indianapolis
Joined: August 17, 2005
 Because the mystery NOS DAC kicks all their butts? lol


Photobucket
RE: Ohhhhh, posted on November 8, 2009 at 06:06:52
Dynaudio_Rules
Audiophile

Posts: 5606
Location: Georgia
Joined: April 1, 2005
 She is in for more mod's....right now I am using a Konnekt8 on loan and looking for another DAC.



Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
RE: Ohhhhh, posted on November 7, 2009 at 21:19:04
AstroD
Audiophile

Posts: 80
Location: So Cal
Joined: October 13, 2003
 Well, there's one thing audiophilia and philsophy have in common - how do you define "soul"...
Soul pt.2, posted on November 8, 2009 at 07:44:20
Dynaudio_Rules
Audiophile

Posts: 5606
Location: Georgia
Joined: April 1, 2005
 While I was listening to music this morning it dawned on me that for audio equipment a soul might just be the glow of warm tubes.

Its just something about tubes [imo] that breaths life into music.

Maybe we have a choice after we die, to either walk into the light of a new world being reborn or the light of a vacuum tube....Hmmmmmm




Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
Soul..., posted on November 8, 2009 at 05:04:18
Dynaudio_Rules
Audiophile

Posts: 5606
Location: Georgia
Joined: April 1, 2005
 "how do you define "soul"..."

Wow, thats a hard one.....Websters says:


Main Entry: 1soul
Pronunciation: \ˈsōl\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soule, from Old English sāwol; akin to Old High German sēula soul
Date: before 12th century

1 : the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life
2 a : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe b capitalized Christian Science : god 1b
3 : a person's total self
4 a : an active or essential part b : a moving spirit : leader
5 a : the moral and emotional nature of human beings b : the quality that arouses emotion and sentiment c : spiritual or moral force : fervor
6 : person \not a soul in sight\
7 : personification \she is the soul of integrity\
8 a : a strong positive feeling (as of intense sensitivity and emotional fervor) conveyed especially by black American performers b : negritude c : soul music d : soul food e : soul brother

Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
RE: Ohhhhh, posted on November 7, 2009 at 16:12:54
AudioDoctor
Audiophile

Posts: 678
Location: Minnesota
Joined: March 25, 2008
 Perhaps, what would you have suggested?

Happiness is a clean record, and warm tubes!
Suggestion.....I Dare Not...nt, posted on November 7, 2009 at 17:01:00
Dynaudio_Rules
Audiophile

Posts: 5606
Location: Georgia
Joined: April 1, 2005
 .

Scrutiny Strengthens The Truth and Breaks Down Lies 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
We're not at the end of PC audio Madness, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:21:21
Old Listener
Audiophile

Posts: 704
Location: SF Bay area
Joined: February 6, 2005
 > Are we at the brink of...

>"Audiophile grade" power cords for your PC/MAC?

Some of these things on your list are already articles of faith for avant garde audiophiles.

Audiophiles need new frontiers so new "discoveries" requiring increasing large purchases will continue.

> Or have gone over the edge already?

We may be over the edge now but that doesn't mean that the process will stop.

Bill
RE: We're not at the end of PC audio Madness, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:30:53
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 You are right. It's like if they outlaw derivatives based on sub prime mortgages, they will just spin off a new one..based on life insurance policies..

Oppps...err..they already did.

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 09:23:09
Joe LG
Audiophile

Posts: 100
Joined: September 15, 2001
 Well, at least PC is gaining ground as the next frontier of audio playback finally. Just went to the Singapore Sight & Sound show & was surprised that many exhibitors had PC or Mac setups as one of the alternative source(s).

No one had any audiophile approved peripherals for the PC though.

Regards,
Joe Ling

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 10:54:02
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 That is good to hear.

One more possibility I forgot to list is "audiophile grade" ethernet cables, jacks, and switches. Now that would take the cake!

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 8, 2009 at 02:37:26
Roseval
Audiophile

Posts: 506
Joined: March 31, 2008
 Audioquest makes an Ethernet cable
• Long grain copper conductors: Fewer Impurities, Less Distortion
• Solid High Density PE: Ensures stable geometry and minimum interaction with signal flow
• Critical Twist Geometry: Each pair has a different twist rate to prevent inter-channel interference
• Gold-Plated Contacts
At $ 25 a meter this is not really High End
Denon did a better job, $500 for a Cat5, read the raving reviews at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/product-reviews/B000I1X6PM

My favourite: connect your USB out to SPDIF in:
- Locus Design Nucleus USB cable: $ 1149
- CyroParts Sonicweld Diverter $1299 USB to SPDIF converter
- Audioquest Eagle Eye with 72V DBS Digital Cable $650,-




The Well Tempered Computer
Denon AKDL1 Dedicated Link Cable, posted on November 8, 2009 at 08:09:15
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 3065
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
Contributor
  Since: February 24, 2009
 I agree with these reviews. :-)

The existence of this product in the market proves:

1. Sound quality is not necessarily correlated with price
2. People with large bank accounts are not necessarily good judges of sonics.

I conclude that Denon uses "sucker pricing" and therefore is not an ethical company. They have been added to my "unacceptable vendors list" for their questionable marketing practices.

BTW, the cable is only cat 5, and I am running cat 6 cables presently, less "distortion" at gigabit rates (Under $20 for 25 feet.) Your link didn't work, but I've put a good one below.



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 8, 2009 at 06:59:06
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 Interesting.

They are all on my Hanukah/Xmas shopping list. I just don't think I can go thru another year with my lowly Graybar and Belkin cords.

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:17:04
Phelonious Ponk
Audiophile

Posts: 558
Location: NC
Joined: September 3, 2007
 And how would that be different from audiophile grade USB cables? We're already there.

P

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:29:36
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 I must have been in a haze.

Well, silly me, I think my squeezebox/CIA DAC set up sounds pretty amazing with Graybar ethernet cables, a stock cord on my pc, and regular usb cords on my external hard drives.

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:34:56
Phelonious Ponk
Audiophile

Posts: 558
Location: NC
Joined: September 3, 2007
 Take heart. When the drugs wear off you'll realize your PC needs a hospital grade cord, a Naim power supply and some pet rocks resting on its keyboard. Then your PRaT will be PHaT and your music will be musical. Now? You're just listening to hard, clinical, jittery, lifelessness. You shall be released.

P

RE: One the Edge of Madness...PC Audiophilia?, posted on November 7, 2009 at 13:19:21
Spendor Harbeth
Audiophile

Posts: 601
Location: Left Coast
Joined: May 15, 2009
 You have given me hope double P.

As you may know, I was dubbed the Brat without Prat!

This forum does not have enough to talk about, posted on November 7, 2009 at 13:09:35
Ishmael
 nt

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