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Considering Mac Mini Music Server - have some questions

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Posted on November 6, 2009 at 06:28:46
bryan
Audiophile

Posts: 987
Joined: June 6, 2001
 I am new to this medium of digital front ends but I really want to make the move to this technology. I do have a decent dedicated and decent 2 channel that is primarily vinyl only. And I have a cheap older Oppo DVD player seeing limited action. I recently added room treatment to my system and I find that even my basic DVD player sounds really good because of what the room treatment did and now that I realize this I have decided to get back in to digital. And I have decided I'd prefer a server instead of the shiny disc player approach.

I think I'd like to go with a headless Mac Mini for my server and I have some questions about this. The reason I decided on a Mac over a PC is because I already have an iMac which I can use to remote in to the headless Mini and we also have an older Airport Express router. And a Mini could sit on my existing audio rack. It's somewhat quiet, looks good, can be controlled with an Ipod Touch... lots of upside to using the Mini.

Is there any down side to using a headless Mac Mini? I know there is a limitation because an internal sound card can't be used. But I believe an external one could be used if required. Or I can just use Firewire and USB connections and appropriate DAC. Other than that, I would think it would be as good sonically as the MAC servers/laptops listed on CASH, and certainly a good buy because of the cost. Am I mssing something as far as the Mini not being a good choice? Is there an alternative to using a full fledged computer for a music server that is better?

Is there any performance advantge from a sonic/music perspective to increasing board memory from 2GB to 4GB?

And I have seen some older G4 Mini's for sale used, locally, for less than half the price of the newer Intel Mini's. Is there anything wrong with using an older G4 mini?

On the storage front, is there any sonic advantage to using an external NAS or multiple drives with the Mini? I know it will provide redundancy and fail over and backups, and additional storage, but is there any sonic improvements to be gained with external storage? Does the music server perform better if the music disk I/O's are happening on another disk just like most computer applications? I was thinking of just using the internal drive for now and adding some external storge later but I won't if that's just not a good thin. I know some people are advocating SSD for the OS so maybe I need to budget out a SSD and two external disks

On the environment front, I wanted to know if having a server like a Mini with my 2 channel rig is going to result in an noise pollution from an AC mains or RFI point of view. I do not have dedicated lines at this point. I don't have a power regenerator (e.g. PS Audio Power Plant) either. I was wondering if I should do something about this. Does a server audibly affect a 2 channel system? If so, is there an alternative to computer based music servers that have non switching power supplies that don't push out noise that impact sonics? Or would I better off with a Mini and putting in dedicated lines?

On the DAC front, I'm not sure I want to spend $2K on something that might be obsolete in a few years that will lead to me upgrading again. I don't mind spending $1K though. In the $2K range I have a list of DACs that I'd consider based on what I've read here. But I don't have much in the $1K range. I would prefer a more analog sounding DAC over a lean and mean one, which rules out the Benchmark. I do like what Clay states about going with pro gear because there is less markup.

Bryan

RE: Considering Mac Mini Music Server - have some questions, posted on November 10, 2009 at 16:30:59
joaquin.chile
Audiophile

Posts: 4
Location: Viņa del Mar
Joined: September 19, 2009
 Hi bryan , im using a mac mini as a dedicated hi rez transport , it is conected to a Lacie 320 gigas using fire wire 800 .
The optical out from the mini feeds an audio aero capitole via TOSlink at 24 bit 96000 . Impressive sound from hi rez files like the ones from linn .
Buy the remote also , your al done . Im never using redbook again , the same for the transport from the CD . Great improvement .

RE: Considering Mac Mini Music Server - have some questions, posted on November 6, 2009 at 08:33:44
cfmsp
Audiophile

Posts: 353
Joined: October 21, 2006
 Bryan,
I can provide more detailed responses to your questions later, but will say for now, that after much consideration, I recently bought a Mac Mini as a dedicated music server. I use dedicated external drive (MyBook) connected directly. I went with 4Gb, which I purchased pre-installed so I can't speak for possible sound improvement. I purchased a relatively small SSD (120GB OCZ Agility series) to use for OS and favorite songs, relying on the external drive for majority of music files. I would not purchase the two drive Mac Mini server, preferring to keep SSD only on the computer itself, and isolating the HD noise elsewhere. Two SSDs in a Mac Mini Server model would be quite expensive, but that's the only way I would implement the two drive Mini.

I use Firewire - which I highly recommend - for the interface. I do NOT recommend purchase of new 'legacy' DACs for computer audio setups, as they require a Lynx (or similar) soundcard or a converter (fire-wire to AES/EBU, etc.), at considerable additional expense. By 'Legacy' Dacs, I mean those that are a legacy of the transport-to-DAC era and do not provide interfaces common to most modern computers (Firewire & USB) except for rather less well regarded Toslink (aka Optical S/PDIF).

The additional significance of avoiding purchase of new legacy DACs is that Asynchronous Firewire and USB DACs offer superior potential jitter reduction (due to use of fixed frequency clocks IN THE DAC) than the S/PDIF variants offered by the 'legacy' DAC manufacturers.

My highest value recommendation for a DAC is the Metric Halo ULN-2, if you want high resolution, transparent sound (as opposed to the type you singled out - lean and mean, 'false' detail, etc.). Neither will it sound like a Tube DAC, for that there is Gordon's Brick, etc. The ULN-2 $1495 for 14 day trial from B&H Photo. For 2/3rds of that price, I can recommend Gordon's Proton - Async USB for $900.

cheers,
clay

PS, I did take delivery of a PowerMac G5 last night to evaluate for possible better sound quality, but just looking at it (and listening to its fan noise) next to the Mac Mini, it would need to be a 'night and day' difference, IMO, to warrant a recommendation to anyone but the most dedicated (read masochistic) of audiophiles as opposed to the Mac Mini.
RE: Considering Mac Mini Music Server - have some questions, posted on November 6, 2009 at 10:59:38
bryan
Audiophile

Posts: 987
Joined: June 6, 2001
 Clay, I have been reading up on computer audio and read a lot of your posts here and at CA. Great stuff. I like your approach and you seem to have a handle on this stuff. So I really already know what you just replied with above. Love to hear what you have to say about power and noise. And drives. As for DACs, USB or Firewall, I really need to determine my budget first. I think I have about $3K and I'd like to build out the server first and then see how much I have left from that, then figure out what DAC I'm going to get. And I'd like to build a system that might have a weaker point now but can be upgraded later so I need to factor in that sort of thing in to my plan. And I might have to budget for AC power like dedicated lines or regenerators too. Your DAC could be in my range when I'm done with the rest. I might have a look at a Mytek too. Not sure about the Proton because I don't really want a portable and I heard there just isn't much to the insides of a Proton, which can be a good thing in one sense, but I wonder about the value for money of that compared to a pro audio DAC.

Bryan

RE: Considering Mac Mini Music Server - have some questions, posted on November 8, 2009 at 09:57:59
cfmsp
Audiophile

Posts: 353
Joined: October 21, 2006
Bryan,

Re your comments about power, I'm just getting around to line conditioning - I've purchased it but want to get a few other things tweaked before inserting it into the chain so I'll know if it provides value for money.

Nelson Pass, who manufacturers my J2 power amp, doesn't believe in need for upgrade power cables (for his amps). I do use a custom linear PS for my DAC. I use(d) Analysis Plus power cables on my preamp, and previously my power amp.

Currently, I'm running ULN-2 (with custom PS as mentioned) directly into the J2 (with standard AC cable), and my system never sounded better.

Some have reported improvement in Mac Mini with custom PS. I've not tried it. The same folks have recommended EMI/RFI reducing improvements to the Mac Mini. Seach for Silverlight on CA, if interested.

As for the relative value (of components) in the Proton, I personally am more than willing to pay extra for products by those that can design & implement circuits that sound best with fewer components. Nelson Pass is a prime example. Simple(r) circuits sound best to my ears.

You're not paying for the parts, you're paying for the genius behind them, so long as we're not venturing into price gouging, which I certainly don't think we are with Gordon. [note: he made the custom PS I use on my DAC, potentially cannibalizing his own DAC business.]

The proton has quite unique properties - no AC required (uses a lithium ion battery charged via USB) AND it connects the source computer's volume control to the DAC's circuitry. Combine small footprint, and total portability, with high quality headphone out, and it's a STEAL, in all caps, to me.


The classic example of controversy over price gouging versus implementation of the most simple of circuits was the original 47 labs Gaincard amps, which were eventually copied by many.

cheers,
clay
RE: Considering Mac Mini Music Server - have some questions, posted on November 6, 2009 at 09:26:52
Vic D
Audiophile

Posts: 749
Joined: August 15, 2002
 If I understood Bryan he's going to be controlling the Mac Mini with his iMac desktop via a wireless connection to an Airport Express > Toslink > Mac Mini > Fire Wire > DAC (Is that correct Bryan?). Can you, or anybody, comment on this remote wireless setup? Can the iMac wirelessly control the Mac Mini leaving out the Airport Express/Toslink?

RE: Considering Mac Mini Music Server - have some questions, posted on November 6, 2009 at 10:47:20
bryan
Audiophile

Posts: 987
Joined: June 6, 2001
 Vic, I was planning on using the iMac to initially setup the Mini only. Once setup with iTunes configured I would like to use a Touch to remote control playing music on the Mini. That seems to be the preferred method. But if there are other ways to do it I'd be intersted. The problem is my son has a Touch, and my daugther only has an older Nano. If I get a Touch, she'll want one too!

Bryan

RE: Considering Mac Mini Music Server - have some questions, posted on November 6, 2009 at 10:44:40
cfmsp
Audiophile

Posts: 353
Joined: October 21, 2006

Screen Sharing - native to OS X - is what I use. You can control any Mac on the network with any other rather easily.

I currently use a Macbook Air to control a Mini, Macbook Pro, Powermac G5, or a Cube. I also have a VGA input to an LCD TV which is uesd occasionally.

This does not work IME, posted on November 6, 2009 at 10:44:04
Sordidman
Dealer

Posts: 9245
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 If you run Apple Lossless or better, - you have to be wired from the server to the iMAC or playback computer.

I've also found that my mini from late 2008 has a noisy hard drive, - too noisy for the listening room, late at night, at very low volume. So, - as soon as SSD drives come down under $567 million; I'm in for one of those.

just my two cents


Surrendered to self preservation,
From others who care for themselves.
A blindness that touches perfection,
But hurts just like anything else.
OK, that answeres a question I was too dumb to ask., posted on November 6, 2009 at 13:00:57
Vic D
Audiophile

Posts: 749
Joined: August 15, 2002
 I'm sure this is old ground to everyone here but me. To be clear. Lossless does not transmit wirelessly? Ideally, you want an iTouch/iPhone to control SSD driven Mini onto a DAC and into the preamp?

It "works" but I get bad dropouts or pauses in the music, posted on November 6, 2009 at 14:54:59
Sordidman
Dealer

Posts: 9245
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 while ITunes buffers....

But as was stated, you may not have the same issues if you've got the latest and greatest wireless router, not too much inteference, etc. etc.

My take is that it's best to either get a big SSD external drive that's super quiet. Or, a NAS drive. Consumer/Home NAS products have their trade-offs as I see it. In my (somewhat unique case) I share a building with a MAC tech/Animation tools developer, - so we've had MAC servers running in the basement for quite a while. A few holes drilled below my window and some free Cat5 from work solved a lot of issues, - for free.

Best of luck.

Cheers,


Surrendered to self preservation,
From others who care for themselves.
A blindness that touches perfection,
But hurts just like anything else.
RE: OK, that answeres a question I was too dumb to ask., posted on November 6, 2009 at 13:34:45
cfmsp
Audiophile

Posts: 353
Joined: October 21, 2006

I used wireless data transmission for quite a while. It depends on network speed and other traffic as to the breaking (or rather dropout) point.

With 802.11G wireless transmission of ALAC files I had occasional dropouts due to other traffic (read GF's internet access), but these were eliminated when I went to 802.11N (even with AIFF RBCD files).

However, once I went the 'headless' route - there was no reason NOT to connect the eternal disk directly. I still access some music files wirelessly - via Home Sharing feature of iTunes, with not problems.

Put your Mac Mini and external drive near your DAC, and control via ipod/iphone or via screen sharing from any computer on the network.

My stripped down (process wise) Mac Mini is dead quiet.


clay
I plan to do all of this but to use Amarra rather than Itunes. And I want blue tooth & everything else off., posted on November 6, 2009 at 13:52:09
Norm
Audiophile

Posts: 14914
Joined: September 6, 2000
 I also want to use a Macbook Pro on battery only into a Minerva. I know this is the "max," but I want to try it. I am presently trying to find the "best" Firewire 800 cables.

RE: I plan to do all of this but to use Amarra rather than Itunes. And I want blue tooth & everything else off., posted on November 6, 2009 at 14:15:50
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 2001
Joined: October 20, 2002
 I haven't tried my MacBook Pro with battery in a very long time. I did like the Weiss DAC2 with Amarra on my sytem. There is a very reasonably priced Firewire cable that Vincent recommends. I'll have to search the threads.

Speaking of crazy prices on cables, I just noticed that Locus Design announded a new USB cable called the Cynosure starting at $2849 for 3 feet. You gotta love this hobby!

RE: I plan to do all of this but to use Amarra rather than Itunes. And I want blue tooth & everything else off., posted on November 6, 2009 at 16:58:55
AudioDoctor
Audiophile

Posts: 659
Location: Minnesota
Joined: March 25, 2008
 "Speaking of crazy prices on cables, I just noticed that Locus Design announded a new USB cable called the Cynosure starting at $2849 for 3 feet. You gotta love this hobby! "

Thats just crazy...

Happiness is a clean record, and warm tubes!
Is it the Goldx? nt, posted on November 6, 2009 at 16:19:40
Norm
Audiophile

Posts: 14914
Joined: September 6, 2000
 a

Yes (nt), posted on November 6, 2009 at 16:32:15
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 2001
Joined: October 20, 2002
 .

RE: I plan to do all of this but to use Amarra rather than Itunes. And I want blue tooth & everything else off., posted on November 6, 2009 at 14:05:44
cfmsp
Audiophile

Posts: 353
Joined: October 21, 2006

Norm,

PLease be aware that the Weiss DAC2 is functionally equivalent to the Minerva, and costs $2k less due to being sourced via pro audio channels.

clay
Thanks, Clay, I know that. It is a long story. nt, posted on November 6, 2009 at 14:07:48
Norm
Audiophile

Posts: 14914
Joined: September 6, 2000
 a

RE: Thanks, Clay, I know that. It is a long story. nt, posted on November 6, 2009 at 14:16:21
cfmsp
Audiophile

Posts: 353
Joined: October 21, 2006

You might want to try an adapter with the highly recommended Gold-X Firewire cables. I can't seem to find these with F800 connectors.

In particular, a 6pin to 4pin Gold X, with a 4pin to 9pin adapter, to eliminate the power leg of the cable. do NOT try this with Tec-nec adapters - I just did and they don't pass any signal.

I'll keep looking for a better adapter.

clay

I'm surprised that the Weiss does have a Firewire 800 input., posted on November 6, 2009 at 16:23:53
Norm
Audiophile

Posts: 14914
Joined: September 6, 2000
 I also cannot find Goldx Firewire 800s.

yes, but..., posted on November 6, 2009 at 09:56:35
AudioDoctor
Audiophile

Posts: 659
Location: Minnesota
Joined: March 25, 2008
 It may be cheaper to buy a small, cheap monitor...

However, I think using the iPhone/iTouch iTunes remote app will also work, as long as the Mini is set up and iTunes is left running.

Happiness is a clean record, and warm tubes!

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