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Is this the right forum for asking questions about music servers?

68.146.0.52
Posted on November 2, 2009 at 13:44:15
bryan
Audiophile

Posts: 990
Joined: June 6, 2001
 I'm interested in a return to digital as a source for a dedicated 2 channel system that was vinyl only. This 2 channel system is a traditional system with speakers and an integrated amp. I would like to introduce digital to this system, by way of a music server instead of a player because of the obvious benefits related to access a library of music without changing discs. My budget is $2.5K and I will need a DAC and the server to be covered by this budget.

I am trying to educate myself on music servers and all the new digital technology and have read a few of the digital boards here and elsewhere, and I'm assuming this CA board is the best one for a guy like me.

My first question is, is there any decent websites with good information on digital music servers and the technology? I'd like to learn more about terms, definitions, implementations, technologies etc. After a day of reading threads I'm still unclear about some things.

I currently have an older iMac that has a lot of music on it and was primarily used for iPods. Most of the music is compressed, but I would like access to it for different audio systems in the house including some AudioEngine speakers I will be setting up in a kitchen connected to an Airport Express. I'd also like my dedicated two channel system to access the music on the iMac too.

But I don't think I want this iMac to be the computer behind my music server, or the music storage behind my music server.

So I would like to build another music server. And I would like it to be accessible from not only my 2 channel system, but the kitchen speakers (Airport) too or other 2 channel systems.

So I would like multi zones or rooms, and multiple sources of music too (including internet radio). Is this possible?

As for the new music server and a DAC, I am confused about something. If I setup a music server either on a computer such as a Mac, or maybe something based on a NAS, and I add in a DAC, what would the DAC inputs be hooked up to? I know I want the output of the DAC to go to my integrated amp input, but I'm not sure about the input to the DAC. What goes on it's input? I'm assuming they would have to be hooked up to a computer/NAS music server to get the digital output which is will convert to analog.

RE: Is this the right forum for asking questions about music servers?, posted on November 2, 2009 at 18:54:28
John Swenson
Audiophile

Posts: 2014
Location: No. California
Joined: October 13, 2002
 Lets see if I can shed some light here.

There are several parts to a computer music system:

The music files have to be stored on a disk somewhere. This can be a disk in a computer, or it can be a disk in a NAS box (actually small computer and disks) which can talk to other computers over a network. External disk (USB, FireWire,eSATA) connected to a computer.

Player software. This can be iTunes, Jriver etc. There are MANY choices here. The player software does not HAVE to run on the same device that the files exist on, though this is fairly common.

Human user interface. This is where you choose what song, playlist etc to play, setup playlist, search the music library etc. In most cases the UI is part of the player software so it runs on the same computer as the player software. But it HAVE to be. There are methods for remote control for many setups. This lets you do things like have the disk and player software on a "big" computer then have a small handheld device for controlling the system.

DAC. The DAC can exist in a "soundcard" the fits inside the computer, or it can be a separate box that connects to the computer. There are several ways to connect to a computer. The old standby is S/PDIF, either coax or optical(TOSLINK). Usually this cable connects to a soundcard that fits into the computer, but a few computers have some form of S/PDIF output builtin. There are MANY MANY different S/PDIF DACs out there. USB and FireWire. The DAC plugs into the computer port. Both these interfaces have somewhat limited distance they can be from the computer, which means the computer has to be near the audio system. Ethernet (wired or WiFi). There are several devices on the market that get their data over a network and contain the DAC. Some of these even contain S/PDIF out so you can hook up and external DAC box to the network device. Most of these require their own special server software running on the computer, so you are limited as to the player software you can use.

You can mix and match these various different parts together to come up with your system. There are a lot of options and possible configurations. And thats just the basic system functionality, then you add sound quality on top of this and it can get a little complex.

Its sort of like with LPs, you can buy an all in one "record player" and an integrated amp with phono stage, or go after each piece separately, turntable, arm, cartridge, stepup transformer, phono stage, preamp, power amp etc. You can make it simple, or try and mix and match for best results.

For starters one of the best ways to approach this is to define your usage and find a system that will do what you want and get the best sound for the money.

From what you have said it sounds like you want to have one centralized file storage box and several playback "stations" in different parts of the house. You have several choices at this point first off how do you want to control the system at each location? Possible choices:

Computer with traditional screen and keyboard and mouse.

Computer with touchscreen

Just a touchscreen (no separate computer box). Screen sits on a table or some such.

Handheld device with screen in the device (usually WiFi connected)

Traditional IR remote (eg TV remote) that you point at something on the other side of the room. The "something" will have to have some form of screen so you can see what you are controlling.

You do not have to have the same method used for each location. For example you might want a fixed touch screen device in the kitchen but a handheld screen in the main listening room. Just think about how you would like to interact with the system at each location, don't think about whether its available, or what its going to cost yet. Come up with your ideal system now, then make the system fit that.

Another big issue is, do you want a computer in your main listening room? How sensitive are you fans running, disks whirring etc? There are various levels of quiet computers, with completely silent ones being expensive, OR you have to go with one of the more complex systems with the disks in another room and networking etc. If you want a traditional screen next to your listening position there are low power completely silent computers that can be used as players with the files being remote.

If you go networking do you want to go wired or WiFi? Wired guarantees good transfer, but WiFi can be problematical in some situations. For example my neighborhood has 8 WiFi networks nearby which makes wireless audio not completely reliable. Most of the time it works, but dropouts do happen every so often. You have to decide whether the reliability of a wired network is important to you. In my house I have the main listening system wired and other parts of the house on WiFi.

Format compatibility. Some of the Apple file formats are not universally recognized by all other systems. Since it seems like you already have Apple files that might constrain things somewhat.

Lets see if this helps clarify things a little. At this point I think its good to try and "dream" a little, what would you REALLY like, then we find a solution for that.

John S.
RE: Is this the right forum for asking questions about music servers?, posted on November 3, 2009 at 14:45:59
bryan
Audiophile

Posts: 990
Joined: June 6, 2001
 Thanks John. Been reading the computer audiophile site and forum since I posted this and am getting a handle on some of the terms, approaches, technology etc. I think I'm going to use a mac mini for a server, headless, in my 2 channel room. Not sure if I should get additional storage now or just use the mini disc for starters. And I think I will go with a USB or Firewall DAC so and keep the sound card out of play. And I'll use a touch for control. Then once its all setup, I can look at introducing a way to make this accessible to the rest of the house, or not. The one thing I'm not sure about is AC. I don't have dedicated circuits in this room and I'm worried about the computer generated noise impacting the AC used for my normal 2 channel gear such as my integrated amp.

RE: Is this the right forum for asking questions about music servers?, posted on November 3, 2009 at 23:43:37
John Swenson
Audiophile

Posts: 2014
Location: No. California
Joined: October 13, 2002
 Hi Bryan,
for a multi-room system I really like the squeezebox system. There are many different hardware players that can be controlled with many different methods.

You can use the Mac-Mini, the squeezebox server runs fine on it and it will read itunes libraries. You you don't actually use iTunes to play the music though, that is done through one of the control methods which talk to the server.

For your system I recommend the new Touch for your main system, it sounds very good, even direct from its audio out jacks. In addition it has a very good S/PDIF out if you do want to connect to an external DAC, and you can even plug a USB DAC into it. The only problem is the touch is not shipping yet. Logitech is saying end of the year for actual shipments.

There are other players in the system as well. The Transporter is aimed at audiophiles, but it costs way more than the Touch and I don't think it sounds any better. (there will be disagreement on THAT). Either of these sound a lot better than any of the other players.

There are two that have builtin speakers, the Boom and the Radio. The Boom looks like a small boombox (but sounds way better than most boomboxes) and the Radio looks like a small table radio, its great for nightstand use. All of them can be connected to an external stereo system.

You can control these with their own IR remotes, over a web page to the server from ANY browser, a dedicated handheld remote with color screen or with programs that run on many different computers. One of the most popular is called iPeng which runs on iPhones or iTouch.

There are even virtual players that run on computers so you can play the music direct on your laptop or on the computer in the office or whatever.
These also make it possible to test out the system without buying anything!

You can setup your Mac-Mini, put your music in an iTunes library, install the server, then put a virtual player on that or any other computer and try out iPeng on the iTouch, try out the web interface etc and see how you like it. If the interface meets with your satisfaction you can buy a SBTouch for the main system and other players for other parts of the house as you desire. If you eventually determine the Touch direct outs are not good enough for you you can always add an external DAC (either S/PDIF or USB) and still use the Touch as the interface, you don't have to get something completely new.

Its a very flexible system and I think would meet your requirements.

John S.
RE: Is this the right forum for asking questions about music servers?, posted on November 3, 2009 at 04:22:49
Roseval
Audiophile

Posts: 506
Joined: March 31, 2008
 Bryan

If you want to do multi room, you need a central storage running 7*24
Often a low powered NAS is used as the music server.

Multi room is in general done with media players, Squeezebox and Sonos are the best know examples but there are more brands:
http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/DAP.htm

Connecting a DAC and a computer can be done in many ways: http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/Connect/index_connect.htm

Maybe this link is of use to you: http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Intro/Starter.htm

The Well Tempered Computer
RE: Is this the right forum for asking questions about music servers?, posted on November 3, 2009 at 03:29:39
lord addleford
Audiophile

Posts: 336
Location: new england
Joined: July 5, 2005
Contributor
  Since: April 11, 2006
 this is a post worthy of permanent placement at the head of the forum. thank you, john.

one way to start easy and build as you go, posted on November 2, 2009 at 16:33:11
troporobo
Audiophile

Posts: 1386
Location: Manila
Joined: June 6, 2003
 Since you already have an iMac with music on it, you can set up a network quickly and easily. You need an Airport Extreme ($179 for a router) or a Time Capsule ($499 for router and 2TB drive), and Airport Express units ($99) in each room where you want music.

The Airport Express has a DAC inside which is serviceable but not brilliant. It can also pass a digital signal via Toslink to an external DAC. I use just the AE in most rooms and on the lanai, but have an decent DAC on the main system.

If you stop here, the system has to be controlled from the iMac. But a cool wireless solution is available too. There's a free app called "Remote" for the iPod Touch ($139 for a refurb) that allows you to dial up music in any room you like, from any room, and even play multiple streams in different rooms. This works for your iTunes library, CDs, and internet radio. This makes it all very easy and the whole family enjoys a lot more music this way.

The upgrade path for this system would involve more storage, better DACs, and possibly a bigger touch screen in the main system. I believe that this system is also limited to redbook resolution so if you are into hi-res music its not a long term solution

It's best to decide your goals: ultimate fidelity or convenience. There are certainly more sophisticated approaches, and no doubt better-sounding equipment and software. I believe both goals can be achieved but at increasing cost and complexity. I use the server/network for casual listening so the basic Apple ecosystem works for me.

RE: one way to start easy and build as you go, posted on November 2, 2009 at 17:36:47
bryan
Audiophile

Posts: 990
Joined: June 6, 2001
 I think I stated in my original post I'm not interested in using the iMac for this music server. It's running out of space, it's older, it has minimal storage left. I want a dedicated server, storage and DAC. But I want it to be accessible thru the house, but primary use will be my 2 channel system. I'm thinking of a Mini Mac, maybe with a SAN, and a DAC.

I have seen some high end guys like Chris from Computer Audiophile also uses a card and a DAC. Is the card just for avoiding USB connections?

OK, understood, posted on November 2, 2009 at 18:37:11
troporobo
Audiophile

Posts: 1386
Location: Manila
Joined: June 6, 2003
 I should have been clearer - you can start building around the iMac and migrate to a Mini (or something else) as you go. You'll want external storage in any case so the remaining capacity on the old computer is less of an issue. But if that is where you want to end up, it is indeed easier to start with a new server

I'll take on last paragraph., posted on November 2, 2009 at 14:08:18
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 2634
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 Several options there to get signal to DAC's input:

1. Wireless network player like Squeezebox, which gets a stream from either computer or NAS over WiFi, and whose SPDIF out is connected to your DAC. Next version (SB Touch) won't even need neither computer/NAS nor network - you'll be able to attach USB hard drive directly to it.

2. PS Audio PWD is out of your stated price range, and they still haven't released the Bridge - but that (coupled with Bridge, $3500) is integrated network player/DAC. I believe Bridge won't have WiFi capability (Ethernet cable only), but that could be easily solved with wireless AP.

3. Computer in the listening room or nearby - all kinds of options with PCI and PCIe sound cards for PC (SPDIF out to DAC), USB or FireWire (DAC has to support that), or even as simple as optical out of Mac.


If I forgot something, I'm sure we'll hear about it.

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