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Best way to stream music

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Posted on October 26, 2009 at 21:15:20
rmilewsk
Audiophile

Posts: 45
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: January 10, 2008
Contributor
  Since: May 22, 2009
 Hi,

I'm looking for suggestions on the best way to stream music for under $2,000. I don't want to have my computer turned on every time I want to listen to music. I have no problem keeping a NAS online all the time in another room. If I have to keep the streaming device in my living room it needs to be very quiet. I would like to be able to use the device with or without a DAC.

RE: Best way to stream music, posted on October 31, 2009 at 19:14:31
rmilewsk
Audiophile

Posts: 45
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: January 10, 2008
Contributor
  Since: May 22, 2009
 I'm wondering if anyone has looked at the HP MediaSmart servers for music streaming? I know there are a lot of features I would never use but it is just about as cheap as a high quality NAS with 1 TB of space.

The NAS Route, posted on October 31, 2009 at 12:42:03
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 383
Joined: September 27, 2004
 I would suggest you store your music files on a NAS, preferably one with built-in CD drive and ripping and logging software. RipNAS is arguably the best (I'm delighted with mine) but AVA and others do them too. Then use a Squeezebox, Sonos (my present device) or Linn processor. No computer or monitor required, so well within your budget.

Sonos supply Zone Players with built-in DACs (not the world's best) and one has a Class D power amp as well. Control the whole system with the new Sonos CT200 controller or a basic 8 MB iPod Touch with the Sonos app.

Your upgrade path to Utopia - PS Audio PerfectWave DAC with Network Bridge. The latter is long overdue. but should be available in a couple of months. Exceeds your budget but it will be much better than any other PC audio, including the best computer feeding the best of the much-hyped new Asynchronous USBs.

Peter

RE: The NAS Route, posted on October 31, 2009 at 19:13:07
rmilewsk
Audiophile

Posts: 45
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: January 10, 2008
Contributor
  Since: May 22, 2009
 Thanks for the information. I don't need a NAS with a CD drive as all of my ripping will be done on my desktop computer. What is your recommendation for the best NAS without a CD drive?

RE: The NAS Route, posted on November 1, 2009 at 05:33:45
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 383
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Sorry, I know virtually nothing about standard NASs. I bought one with a drive because I simply don't want a stand-alone computer with all it's audio-polutants (sound and video cards, fan, etc) and associated junk (monitor, etc) in my listening room.

The RipNAS means I can do away with all this and use just the built-in industry-leading software and the best CD drive for the single job of ripping audio CDs. It's been 100% sucessful in ripping pressed CDs and only failed on a handful of CD-Rs that had nasty stick-on labels - and these didn't play entirely sucessfully in my CD player either!

Peter

RE: it will be much better than any other PC audio, posted on October 31, 2009 at 14:32:17
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2538
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 Are you omniscient, psychic or merely strongly influenced by hype?

Not saying that it won't be a good product but I don't know yet, how do you?

Rick

RE: it will be much better than any other PC audio, posted on October 31, 2009 at 15:01:12
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 383
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Rick - I thought you were asking for suggestions - this is what I have done - suggesting a system that appears to address the issues you raise!

Work out for yourself the alternative ways to convert digits from a hard drive to music through your speakers. "Computer Audio" using computers is a dog's dinner method, however it's done. I accept that, by employing cunning and vastly over-complicated circuits, many of the shortcomings of using computers can be overcome - to a certain extent. Consider carefully the NAS / Network alternative. It's much more elegant, simple, and likely to result in higher fidelity audio at your listening chair. I'm not over-influenced by hype, but I choose to question every new claimed "breakthrough" technology and I'm far more inclined to accept the route being taken by PS Audio than than by USB proponants. I may be wrong, but the proof will be in the results when the equipment is available. Meanwhile I am certainly not investing in USB DAC technology. I may be wrong, but logic tells me that I should wait a short while before my next investment.

Peter

RE: it will be much better than any other PC audio, posted on October 31, 2009 at 17:28:14
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2538
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 Suggestions? Naw, I wasn't the OP, I was just butting in to give you a bad time about your mystical performance predictions concerning a product still in development.

You are however preaching to the choir concerning music over LAN. Mine's not up yet but am working on it. I'm in no rush, right now tinkering is good. I'm still an advocate of (w)LAN to the speakers and may tinker my way into that if I really get the bit in my teeth. Probably the most daunting task is guaranteeing that malfunctions won't take out your speakers and ears.

I was leaning towards buying the new squeezebox when it hits production and still may but I'm starting to waver as I look into it further. I think I'd rather have a smart client and simple server. We'll see.

Rick
LAN?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 09:21:06
Roseval
Audiophile

Posts: 506
Joined: March 31, 2008
 I wonder if the (W)LAN debate make sense at all.
One thing is sure, to connect to the LAN, you need a computer, they are the only ones who understand Ethernet and wifi.
All networked DAC’s (streaming audio players) are small computers
To get the audio out of them, you use the same tech as with a PC
internal DAC (PCI soundcard), or
external DAC via SPDIF (coax, Toslink), USB, Firewire, I2S, etc

The new Squeezebox Touch is a nice example: a small Linux box with a soundcard.
If needed one could skip the LAN and connect a external HD.

Makes me wonder if in the end a PC and a streaming audio player (networked DAC) are really different.

The Well Tempered Computer
RE: LAN?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 17:04:53
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 383
Joined: September 27, 2004
 "One thing is sure, to connect to the LAN, you need a computer, they are the only ones who understand Ethernet and wifi."

Let's define a "computer" as a stand-alone device with keyboard, monitor and (initially) devoid of software, apart from operating system. You DON'T need a computer in a network audio system. A NAS could be considered by some as a stripped down computer, but it really isn't.


"To get the audio out of them, you use the same tech as with a PC
internal DAC (PCI soundcard), or
external DAC via SPDIF (coax, Toslink), USB, Firewire, I2S, etc"

No, not with the PS Audio PWD with Network Bridge fed by a NAS over a network. This would appear to completely avoid both USB and S/PDIF and jitter will not be introduced. So a NAS with CD drive (RipNAS, AVA, etc) feeding PWD + NB means no computer and no jitter. Discuss.
RE: LAN?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 20:24:35
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
 Hey Cawson,

unfortunately your "definition" of a computer is a bit off:

http://www.techterms.com/definition/computer

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/computer

ALL that stuff you talk about is a computer. Purpose built to be sure, but a computer none the less. I think you mean something like a "desk top" or a "laptop".

Look in PS audio's manual. They talk about all the thousands of hours of PROGRAMMING needed (on page 4)....

And that display certainly looks like a monitor to me, just built in.


RE: LAN?, posted on November 2, 2009 at 03:19:15
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 383
Joined: September 27, 2004
 I think if the non-computer literate buyer went to his local computer store and said "I want to buy a computer" and the shop sold him a NAS or a DAC, the buyer would be most disappoined when he got home! No, a "computer" to most people is a PC or a Mac. Otherwise my car, washing macxhine, central heating boiler, DVD recorder, etc are all computers. That's why I defined a computer as I did.

A piece of equipment specifically designed to do a non-computer job is not a computer, despite having elements of computer within it. Thus neither a RipNAS or a PS Audio DAC, or a DVD recorder is a computer to sensible thinking people.

Peter

PS Thanks for the link to TechTerms.com. A good sourse of simple explantions of computer terms for non-technical people. Surprisingly, there is no mention of S/PDIF - although not primarily a computer protocol, it is often found in computers. It helpfully describes Computer as "Today, however, the term is most often used to refer to the desktop and laptop computers that most people use". That's also how I would describe a computer.

RE: LAN?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 16:34:21
Audio Bling
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Location: Australia
Joined: October 9, 2007
 Re: ”If needed one could skip the LAN and connect a external HD”

If you mean via the USB connection then the restriction is that the HD has to be Fat32. Not a big issue I suppose; just a nuisance. I would hope that the Touch supports NTFS before long.
RE: LAN?, posted on November 1, 2009 at 12:43:53
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 2538
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 Names...

"Makes me wonder if in the end a PC and a streaming audio player (networked DAC) are really different."

I plump for no as they are far more the same than different. I'd say a streaming audio player is a specialized subset of a general purpose computer mainly defined by lack of a keyboard and the inclusion of an IR remote control. Every one of my GP computers will do all the audio stuff, except the IR.

Are all electronic items in the store Turing machines? After all you would be hard pressed to find any without at least a microcontroller.

Going a bit further, I think everything is a clock. They go by their case styles, for instance I have a: Car clock, Radio clock, VCR clock, Desktop computer clock, Laptop computer clock, Stove clock, Coffee pot clock, Microwave oven clock, cuckoo clock... And they are telling me it's time to move on!

Rick
RE: SqueezeBox system, posted on October 28, 2009 at 15:27:49
John Swenson
Audiophile

Posts: 2014
Location: No. California
Joined: October 13, 2002
 I recommend the squeezebox line for you. The server software can run on many NAS boxes. The transporter that was mentioned in another response is the "High End" squeezebox designed specifically for audiophiles.

There is a new box in the line called the TOUCH which has been announced but not shipping yet. Its a lot less expensive than the Transporter but with the latest firmware I think it actually sounds better.

There are MANY MANY ways to control SqueezeBoxen, from their own IR remotes, touch screen on the Touch, a dedicated WiFi controller, web page you can access from any thing that has a browser and dedicated programs that run on many different computers. You can use a laptop, an iPhone, iPod touch, PDA, many cellphones etc. There are virtual players you can run on a computer so you can listen to the music from the server on any computer in the house. You can add different types of SqueezeBoxen in different rooms of the house and they can all access the music from the same server.

Many of the different devices also have S/PDIF out so you can send the data to an external DAC. The digital out from the Touch is especially good at that. Although the digital outs from the Touch are pretty darn good as is. Last night I was doing a test comparing the output from a very good DAC with the analog outs and there was very little difference, the external DAC was better, but not by much.

You can even try out the concept by trying out the server software on a NAS and using one of the virtual players on a computer and get a feel for how the whole system works together and try out some of the control options. (the virtual players can be controlled from the computer they run on OR any of the other control options available to the hardware boxes (except for the IR remotes that come with the boxes of course)

John S.

RE: SqueezeBox system, posted on October 28, 2009 at 22:58:31
rmilewsk
Audiophile

Posts: 45
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: January 10, 2008
Contributor
  Since: May 22, 2009
 The transporter has been at the top of my list for sometime now. My only issue is that it requires the squeeze center software to run. Logitech itself only officially recommends one NAS device for use without a computer. Netgear NAS devices. Netgear's NAS forum has quite a few unhappy customers that say upgrades and various versions of the sqeeze center software running from the NAS itself are problematic.

You state the server software can run on many NAS boxes. Which ones? How do you install it if it isn't directly supported?

RE: SqueezeBox system, posted on October 28, 2009 at 23:51:20
John Swenson
Audiophile

Posts: 2014
Location: No. California
Joined: October 13, 2002
 Probably the best NAS box to use with Squeezebox stuff is the VortexBox. Its $359 (on Amazon) for a 1TB box and comes with SqueezeBox Server preloaded. It DOES have a DVD drive for ripping CDs (with good builtin software) but you don't HAVE to use that drive to rip if you don't want to and the price is actually cheaper than most other NAS boxes with the same performance that don't include a CD drive. Even if you never use the CD drive its a good deal.

All the NAS boxes are little linux computers so you configure them by using SSH from another computer to install programs. There SBS versions available for most NAS boxes (not officially supported by Logitech, but there is a large group of users that support this sort of thing)

Qnap and Synology are other well regarded NAS boxes for SBS, but again by the time you get a decent one it costs as much or more than the vortexbox.

John S.

RE: Best way to stream music, posted on October 28, 2009 at 04:05:51
jdwoods
Audiophile

Posts: 1
Location: Taxachusetts
Joined: October 28, 2009
 Check out the Logitech Transporter. It does just what you're asking, streams music from your NAS via CAT cable or wireless. Available on the internet now for $1,200 to $1,500 brand new.

RE: Best way to stream music, posted on October 27, 2009 at 16:21:15
roscoeiii
Audiophile

Posts: 54
Joined: April 28, 2009
 If you'd like something that looks like a traditional stereo component and can be controlled with a remote control, you might want to check out the Olive line of products. It can also function as a CD burner and transport. The older models such as the Symphony even have an analog input that lets you burn digital copies of your vinyl (or cassettes, etc). The Olive can join your wireless network, has an internal hard drive and lets you attach an external hard drive via USB.

Srajan at 6moons compared the Red Wine modded Olive Symphony to a $5,000-$6,000 CD transport. Stereophile has a nice review of the unmodded version.

And here's another Olive review that compares the modded and unmodded versions:

http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=382

Financial difficulties may necessitate that I sell my Red Wine modded Olive Symphony. Red Wine Audio is no longer doing these mods. If you think this is something you might be interested in purchasing, after checking out the reviews and looking around, let me know. (Note: I would have e-mailed rmilewsk, but he does not accept unsolicited e-mails on Audio Asylum).

RE: Best way to stream music, posted on October 27, 2009 at 22:42:38
rmilewsk
Audiophile

Posts: 45
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: January 10, 2008
Contributor
  Since: May 22, 2009
 Thanks for the information. I looked at the love music servers. My issue is i'm not looking for a music server but a music streamer. I'm not looking for something that has a cd drive in it as I already have a cd player. I'm also not looking for something with hard drives in it as I'm planning to put all of my music on a NAS. It's much more flexible. I can't see spending all of that extra money on a device that has a cd player and hard drives when I will already have those things. I also don't need a device that will rip my cd's as I am planning to do that all myself.

I might be convinced to get something with internal hard drives if it turns out that is the best way to play the music. I'm having a hard time finding a way to play music from a music streamer from a NAS without having my computer on all the time. Which I don't want to do. I did find a NAS that supports some types of music streaming without having a computer on.

I am interested., posted on October 27, 2009 at 16:49:04
kulenrok
 in the Red Wine modded Olive Symphony. Please ping me at:

kulenrok AT bellsouth.net

Price, location, shipping, etc.

Cheers,
RE: Best way to stream music, posted on October 27, 2009 at 02:03:19
Roseval
Audiophile

Posts: 506
Joined: March 31, 2008
 Most streaming audio players are very quiet as they don't contain moving parts.
In essence they are low powered networked computers with a DAC.
You can combine them with a low powered NAS like the Qnap TS 119
A couple of brands: http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/DAP.htm
A bit more on streaming: http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Intro/Streaming.htm

The Well Tempered Computer
RE: Best way to stream music, posted on October 27, 2009 at 22:37:43
rmilewsk
Audiophile

Posts: 45
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: January 10, 2008
Contributor
  Since: May 22, 2009
 Thanks for the great link. I took a look at most of the music servers. The problem is I don't really want a music server I want a music streamer. I don't need something with a cd drive as I already have a cd player. I also don't need any internal hard drives as I'm planning put all of my music on a NAS. It's much more flexible that way. Do you know what are the best music only streamers not music servers?

RE: Best way to stream music, posted on October 28, 2009 at 03:09:20
Roseval
Audiophile

Posts: 506
Joined: March 31, 2008
 The true streamers known to me you can find in the link below.
The 'best' is always very hard to answer.
The Sonos is very user friendly but the Squeezebox is more flexible and is reported to have a better sound quality.
Linn has its 'audio' reputation but also a typical 'audio' price tag.
There are a lot of complains about the interface
I suggest to try a Squeeze
If sound quality is below your standards, combine it with a outboard DAC
The Well Tempered Computer
RE: Best way to stream music, posted on November 2, 2009 at 12:11:09
hanssatink
Audiophile

Posts: 65
Joined: September 13, 2008
 Did anyone compare SB>Spdif>DAC vs XP(cPlay/CMP)>Spdif>DAC ? (plain 44.1khz stream)

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